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00:11
@JasperLoy They teach you nothing at university. You'll have to learn everything on your own.
Could someone explain to me this:
No, by Gödel's second incompleteness theorem, formal systems can prove their own consistency if and only if they are inconsistent. So given that arithmetic is consistent, [it will] never be able to prove that it is.
Doesn't that just mean "there is no consistent formal system that can prove its own consistency"?
" formal systems can prove their own consistency if and only if they are inconsistent" seems to be like a reductio ad absurdum result that proves the theorem
@PeterTamaroff Nope.
Take all the true statements about the natural numbers as a system of axioms.
@JonasTeuwen OK.
So?
Basically, all it says is that if you have a finite set of axioms.
And there are no contradictions between them (as in they are independent) then there will always exist statements which you cannot prove or disprove. Additionally, you cannot prove that the system does not contradict itself within itself.
With the last think they mean: using only the axioms of the system itself.
Roughly atleast.
The phrase "formal systems can prove their own consistency if and only if they are inconsistent" puzzles me.
Does inconsistent mean not consistent?
00:24
Nope.
@JonasTeuwen Ugh, that's my problem, OK.
If they can prove their consistency they are inconsistent because of that incompleteness theorem.
Which says it is not possible, hence a contradiction.
If they are inconsistent, you can basically prove anything from that.
@JonasTeuwen Could you define inconsistent and consistent?
@PeterTamaroff I did. Why are you reading this?
As in: in which context?
@JonasTeuwen Here
@JonasTeuwen Where?
@JonasTeuwen A system is consistent if there are no contradictions between its set of axioms?
00:27
@PeterTamaroff No internal contradictions.
Basically, yes.
@JonasTeuwen And a system is called inconsistent if it can prove it is consistent?
@PeterTamaroff No. It is is inconsistent if it has contradictions.
@JonasTeuwen Then does inconsistent mean not consistent?
@JonasTeuwen You just said "Nope"
00:30
@PeterTamaroff Not sure why I said that, probably read the wrong thing. Sorry about that.
Now.
How is " formal systems can prove their own consistency if and only if they are inconsistent" a theorem?
Or corollary or whatever.
A corollary of Gödel's incompleteness.
Because it states (roughly) that consistent systems cannot be proven to be consistent within itself.
So if you could do that it would actually be inconsistent.
@JonasTeuwen What you mean is that "X is consistent" is can never be a theorem in X, right?
So if "X is consistent" is a theorem in X, Gödel states that makes X inconsistent.
But the viewpoint of "X is consistent" from "inside" the system has nothing to do with what we say when say "X is consistent" from the "outer" logic system, right?
I have no clue what you are saying.
@PeterTamaroff Ah, now I do. Yes, if you could prove within $X$ that it is inconsistent you contradict Gödel.
@PeterTamaroff Sure, for example the Peano axioms have been mentioned in that post.
ZFC is "larger" and includes Peano. You cannot prove the consistence of Peano with only using itself, but you can within ZFC.
@JonasTeuwen I see.
@JonasTeuwen We basically build up Peano from sets, correct?
00:41
@PeterTamaroff Basically.
@JonasTeuwen =)
@HenryT.Horton Is there a non-metrizable Hausdorff space?
@JonasTeuwen I have a quick question
@BenjaLim How quick? I call my questions Usain.
@BenjaLim Hi.
00:53
@JonasTeuwen If I have $e^{ix} = e^{iy}$
@JonasTeuwen Then I should get that $x = y +2\pi k$ yes?
@BenjaLim Same as asking when you have $\sin(x) = \sin(y)$ and $\cos(x) = \cos(y)$ at the same time, right?
@JonasTeuwen yes
@PeterTamaroff Yes, some examples are $\Bbb R$ with basis open sets $[a, b)$, the long line, and $\Bbb R$ with basis open sets of the form $U - \text{countable set}$, where $U$ is open in the standard topology
@BenjaLim So, you say, if you have one value, this will also work if you just add integer multiples of $2\pi$, right?
@JonasTeuwen yes
00:56
@HenryT.Horton Good.
I'm away to eat.
BBL
@PeterTamaroff The Nagata-Smirnov metrization theorem gives necessary and sufficient conditions for a topology to be metrizable
@JonasTeuwen I have it don't worry.
@BenjaLim Good, so you have no question for me :-).
@HenryT.Horton Is it complicated?
@BenjaLim Finally... mailed Pierre.
01:11
@HenryT.Horton I have to prove that the subspace of a metrizable/Hausdorff space is metrizable/Hausdorff.
@PeterTamaroff Well... restrict the metric. DONE?
@JonasTeuwen Yes, yes. That's not the question.
Then why do you ask that question? 8-).
Isn't one a corollary of the other?
I have that $\rm metrizable \Rightarrow \rm Hausdorff$
But not conversely.
All metric spaces are Hausdorff.
01:13
@HenryT.Horton We just finished chapter 1 of Hall
@JonasTeuwen Yes, I know.
Yes, sure. Take a discrete topology on $\mathbf R$.
Singletons are open.
@HenryT.Horton And I just proved that every continuous functions from $\Bbb{R}$ to the circle is of the form $e^{iax}$ for some real number $a$
@HenryT.Horton Can I ask you something
We know that $\Bbb{R}, \times$ is not a group
@BenjaLim Sure...............
Not sure if that works. It is past 3 AM.
01:14
@HenryT.Horton But I think $\Bbb{R},+$ is a matrix lie group
@JonasTeuwen Hehehe nou
Take the discrete metric in $\Bbb R$
@HenryT.Horton $\Bbb{R} \cong \left\{ \left( \begin{array}{cc}1 & a \\ 0 & 1 \end{array}\right) : a \in \Bbb{R} \right\}$
@PeterTamaroff Modafuqa... Yeah.
@PeterTamaroff Fine. Weak topology (on a dual of a Banach space).
@HenryT.Horton And the latter is a matrix lie group
@JonasTeuwen Hahaha no idea what Banach spaces are!
01:16
@HenryT.Horton It is a closed subgroup of $GL_2(\Bbb{C})$
@HenryT.Horton Do you think it's right?
@PeterTamaroff Take the space of all real valued functions on $[0, 1]$ with the topology of pointwise convergence (that is, the smallest topology that makes all of the functions continuous), this is not metrizable.
@BenjaLim That should work
@PeterTamaroff Because in a metrizable space the singleton $\{0\}$ would be $G_\delta$. So it would be the intersection of a sequence of open sets.
@JonasTeuwen What is $G_\delta$?
@PeterTamaroff Second part.
01:24
@JonasTeuwen Pardon? =)
@JonasTeuwen I might have other words for that.
@JonasTeuwen Oh. Interesting notation!
@PeterTamaroff So if we have the topology of pointwise convergence on our space, then if $\{0\} = \bigcap_n G_n$ then this would mean that...
@JonasTeuwen I'm not used to function spaces =/
I'd have to think about it for a bit.
So for each $G_n$ there would be a set of functions in there that converges to $0$ right? Otherwise we would not have $\{0\}$ in the intersection.
@PeterTamaroff This is a very easy one! The easiest actually.
01:36
@JonasTeuwen You're considering $0$ to be a function, right?
Uh, wait, no. That would mean there is a set of functions that does not converge to $0$. Otherwise the bloody thing would not be open.
$\{f=0\}$
So, that means there is an $\epsilon_n > 0$ and a finite set $S_n$ such that $G_n \supset \{f : |f(x)| < \epsilon_n \text{ and } x \in S_n\}$.
For each $n$. So set $g(x) = 0$ for all $x$ in the $\cup S_n$ and $0$ otherwise. This will be in the intersection and is not $0$ hence not metrizable. Done.
@PeterTamaroff Yes.
@JonasTeuwen I need to assimilate a little about function spaces.
@PeterTamaroff I hope I did not mess up. Anyway, it is called "topology of pointwise convergence" if you look it up you will probably find this too. It is also called "weak topology".
Good night! It is 20 to 4 AM 8-).
01:39
@JonasTeuwen Dude, sleep!
Yeah, something like that. Bye.
@JonasTeuwen Bye.
 
2 hours later…
03:28
@PeterTamaroff yes, see http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/174911/does-z-k-z-k-belong-to-bbb-zz-z-1/ with the substitution $z=e^x$. this gives $z^k+z^{-k}=P_k(z+z^{-1})$, but the constant term of $P_k$ must be $0$, so $$\frac{z^k+z^{-k}}{2}=\frac{1}{2}P_k\left(2\frac{z+z^{-1}}{2}\right)\in\Bbb Z[z+z^{-1}].$$ If $(z+z^{-1})/2$ is an integer, so is $(z^k+z^{-k})/2$.
actually wait that's $\cosh$
@anon hey
yo
@anon I have a problem that I've been staring at a few hours now
@anon Our lecturer asked us to prove that $SO(n)$ is connected
By first trying to show that if $v$ is any unit vector in $\Bbb{R}^n$ and $e_1 = (1,0,0,\ldots)$ that there is a path $R(t)$ in $SO(n)$ such that $R(0) = I$ the identity matrix and $R(1)$ is such that $R(1)(v) = e_1$ @anon
okay
@anon I tried looking at just $SO(2)$
I can come up with a path
but it does not stay in $SO(2)$
@anon A matrix $R$ such that $R(v) = e_1$ that works is one where you have the first row $v$ and second row a vector orthogonal to $v$
@anon that's what I tried for SO(2)
and then to turn that into a path
03:42
there's an arc on the unit sphere from $e_1$ to any other point given as the intersection of the sphere with the plane containing those two points, you can parametrize rotation matrices to go through that path
well, that actually gives two paths, so you can just pick whichever
@anon yes the cosine of such an angle is just the dot product of $e_1$ and that vector
@anon I actually tried that earlier but abandoned it.
@anon I will try that again.
choose a basis so that you can make all but a $2\times 2$ block of the matrices the identity, then it's reduced to $n=2$ (which should be easy!)
@anon I think I can do it like that :D
@anon wait how can you make everything else the identity?
the rotation matrices we seek will only rotate a dim 2 subspace containing e1 and v. (we seek these because they make things easy)
@anon ah ok
of course its dimension 2 is just the span of e_1 and v
04:00
@anon success in the case of $n=2$
now set $w\in \langle v,e_1\rangle \cap \langle e_1\rangle^{\perp}\cap S$ so you can let $R$ restrict to the identity on $\langle e_1,w\rangle^\perp$ and as dim 2 rotations on the subspace $\langle e_1\rangle\oplus\langle w\rangle$
I'm using $\langle \rangle$ as spanning notation, but $\perp$ denotes orthogonal complement (wrt the given inner product)
try to follow the geometry behind that argument
@anon I tell you what I have
I listen
@anon Say you have a unit vector $v$ and $e_1$
I restrict my self to just the two dimensional subspace spanned by $v$ and $e_1$
@anon and now I consider $$R(t) =\left( \begin{array}{cc|c} \cos(t\theta) & \sin (t \theta) & 0 \\ -\sin(t\theta) & \cos(t\theta) & 0 \\ \hline 0 & 0& I \end{array}\right)$$
actually I just implanted the dim 2 reasoning in what I wrote, you can just say "embed this dim 2 path into dim n" or whatever if you already did dim 2
04:11
@anon where $I$ is of dimension $n-2$
@anon the matrix above is in the basis of $e_1,v$ and some other guys that I don't care
my dog just slobbered all over my laptop. seething rage
yup, works fine
@anon Hmmm Actually I'm not sure why the bottom guy has to be $I$
in the dimension $n =3$ case I can see why I get a $1$ there
@anon oh ya know what
who cares about "have to." do whatever's simplest.
@anon It doesn't even matter what the lower block is
true, as long as the resulting matrix is in SO(n)
04:13
@anon $v$ in that basis is just $(\cos \theta, \sin \theta, 0 ,\ldots ,0)$ yes?
yes
(by fiat)
@anon but then I have a problem
when $t =1$ I should have the second column of my matrix being $v$
@anon but that's not happening above
because:
then replace t with -t in what you have, it's just a matter of direction
@anon actually I'm stupid
@anon I don't have to care about what basis $R(t)$ is in
@anon All I care right not is that it gives me such a path
well, this uses a basis to explicitly construct a path. what else did you have in mind?
04:17
what do you mean?
@anon I am actually thinking of the columns of my matrix as a coordinate system for $\Bbb{R}^n$
in order to create this path, we had to choose a basis in which v and e1 are part of a subspace spanned in precisely two components. how do you intend to demonstrate the existence of a path from e1 to v without invoking a basis? (just curious)
@anon I think I have to work out more details
@anon you're right yes
@anon I can get the lower block to be $I$ by gram schmidt
"get" it that way? what do you mean? can't you just designate it to be $I$ because you have full control over what R(t) can be?
@anon well yeah but remember I constructed $R(t)$ from a basis?
@anon ok like this:
@anon I let $V = span\{v,e_1\}$
@anon and then I let $\Bbb{R}^n = V \oplus V^\perp$
@anon and then I choose an orthonormal basis for $V^\perp$
@BenjaLim and designated the lower block to be I after invoking the basis? Why is GS needed for this designation?
04:24
@anon GS is needed in choosing an orthonormal basis for $V^\perp$
but the basis for $V^\perp$ is arbitrary. surely you can just say "pick an arbitrary orthonormal basis"?
@anon ah yes I suppose you could given that we have an inner product now
the euclidean inner product
@anon I am confused.....
by what
Looking at my matrix above
I want that when $t =1$
I have $R(1)v = e_1$
@anon But I can't just say that $v = (\cos \theta, \sin \theta, 0,\ldots, 0)$
@anon Because I have to say now that $v = (0,1,0,\ldots,0)$
because the of the basis I chose for the matrix
no, v=(0,1,...) is not what you're supposed to do
04:30
@anon Why not?
@anon the matrix is in the basis $(e,v_1,\ldots)$
So if I want $R(1)v = e_1$
@anon I need to apply $R(1)$ to $(0,1,0,\ldots, )$ yes?
you need to take w=(0,1,0,..) to be one of the two vectors orthonormal to e1 in the space spanned by v and e1, like I said earlier
then the basis is {e1,w,whatever}
@anon OK I think I get what you mean.
and v=(cos,sin,0,...) is fine then
@anon yes
@anon I see my mistake
@anon the reason is that $span\{e_1,w\}$ is then locally like just the euclidean plane
@anon yes
locally? :)
locally inside the whole R^n perhaps, in some "infinitessimally thin" sense, but an infinite plane is hardly locally in diffeo geo terms
04:34
@anon I fling words around like mad, but what I want to say is that if you look at the plane spanned by $e_1$ and $w$ then you get like the plane
yeah
with ortho coordinate axes the lines spanned by e1 and w resp
yes
@anon thanks for discussing with me
np
my brother wants to get on this comp and I'll get back to n64 ssb
04:52
@anon hey there..
hey
You leaving for a while?
my brother has decided to take up the ssb mantle instead
Ham radio?
04:53
@anon Ah, not single side-band
and now it's my turn, I'll get out my laptop though
 
2 hours later…
06:51
8-).
07:23
@JonasTeuwen It's good to be happy.
@robjohn Yes. But sleep is also nice. Once in a while.
Bloody hot!
@JonasTeuwen what's the temp?
Not sure, I floated out of my bed.
Not so warm, 26°C inside.
@JonasTeuwen floated?
@robjohn Yep. In sweat...
07:37
grass died here
exceptional drought area
@DanBrumleve Hmm, it is not dry, just warm :-).
i hope it rains in autumn, i can't remember if it really does or not and i'm afraid to look it up.
there were some thunderstorms that just barely missed us during the last few days.
It rains almost every day here.
07:52
But you have enough water for showering and so on, I hope? :-).
@BenjaLim Meh, might look at it a bit later. Slept for four hours or less.
champaign isn't a desert there is still a water table here ya know
corn crop is broken but we all got plenty of hot water and ac
Ah, not like some of Australia's water issues.
i guess our people living here are not so much invested in the corn crop or even the water so long as the tap works
although we are all depressed because of our yellow lawns
Well, if that is the biggest issue... 8-).
maybe allergies are up there for most people
08:05
Might be a bit stupid (perhaps) to use the water for the corn crop as if I remember correctly it uses lots and lots of water while it perhaps is better for the environment and for your water stock if you just import it from other states?
but for me the worst is the color as you suggest
It might be more common here that it turns yellow because of rotten roots.
i know in norcal they import a lot of water from hetch hetchy in yosemite
here in illinois i don't think it's viable to bring it from far away but i haven't researched the details as much as i would like to
my theory is that local water is groundwater
the cause was certainly the heat and dryness. we skipped spring and had summer start in march this year.
08:28
Holy cow. How hot is it? 8-).
over 90 typically, hottest day may have been 105 (F)
hottest days on record this year
Mmm... quite warm.
damn so what are some ways of putting a lower bound on the primorial function?
what i know are the methods used in the proof of bertrand's postulate which bound it from below as 2^n
the methods are based on comparison to the central binomial coefficient
what are some elementary ways to get it closer to e?
it's gettin hot in here yo
09:06
Heh, is there no place to go where it is nicer to be this time of the year? 8-).
09:28
Hi =)
I do not have my mathbooks in front of me now, and a quick google search proved futile
Is it true that $T_{2n} = (T_{n} + M_{2n})/2$ ? Where $T$ is the trapezoid rule with n segments and M is the midpointrule.
Heh, figured it out. Silly me.
user19161
@Gigili Depends on which university. The good ones teach you many things. The bad ones teach you few things.
09:44
doh y'all are too dazed to support n# > n^(2.5)?
Can't we use imagemagick to determine the type of the file...? Damn. If I have .jpg stored as .png (or the other way around), how to see that automatically (sure, more works).
user19161
@JonasTeuwen Why is your jpg stored as png in the first place?
@JasperLoy Irrelevant. It is.
user19161
@JonasTeuwen Well, there are only a few image formats. Just try all of them until it works 8-)
That's too stupid! I can just read the first bytes, I know. But should be possible with a tool that actually sanitizes the input already, right?
10:00
@JonasTeuwen Latex can do it
That's also... stupid. I can do it much quicker.
user19161
@N3buchadnezzar No, LaTeX can do it, latex cannot do it. 8-)
@N3buchadnezzar Yea, I wonder what library it uses.
user19161
I know why Jonas's hair is like that. The wind. You need the Delft umbrella.
10:04
@JonasTeuwen Black magic and budweiser.
@N3buchadnezzar Yep. That sucks. Say I take some executable and name it .jpg.
user19161
@JonasTeuwen Then what will happen? Nothing.
@JasperLoy I would not be so sure about that.
You would not be the first that becomes a victim to some buffer overflow.
user19161
Ah I see. Well, the things I download are usually pretty safe I guess.
The point is, other people can input the stuff.
I can determine if it is an image or not, but perhaps imagemagick could do this. Doesn't seem like it.
user19161
10:07
Essentially, the people making the viruses are smart but not very smart. The very smart people work on antiviruses, so there is hope for us.
I would not put my money on that.
user19161
Just an observation, from the fact the most evil people in the world are probably not the smartest.
i hope they're not the richest else we're all gonna have a bad time.
user19161
They might be the richest, and money can do many things, but not everything.
speaking of which i think we should all support Dalton Caldwell's project at join.app.net. i believe the philosophy is congruent with our ideals as mathematicians.
i worked with Dalton at imeem and I think he is the only true pirate who has the qualifications to do this.
user19161
10:20
For example, money cannot buy one health or love.
money is really stupid and in america it can buy some health, or rather the lack missing thereof.
so i guess that settles it.
@JonasTeuwen I resemble that!
@robjohn Yep 8-).
indeed u do.
bearded guys, indeed!
2
10:32
i am wrong and you are all right.
as long as y'all don't forget to donate to dc's bs, i'm just the messenger yo
don't forget to teach me those elliptic curves n'shit cuz i be watchin' y'all
oh sorry did i interrupt please continue.
I think the heat is getting to your head.
actually it's chill here it's your attitude.
it's dawn!@
math.stackexchange.com/questions/178740/… clearly time for us all to retire.
but not before donating to dalton caldwell's awesome project at join.app.net. fo real; dude has our best interests at heart.
10:49
@DanBrumleve Eh...?
@Jonas all i'm tryna say is that Dalton Caldwell has his shit together and you should put a benjamin on it
@DanBrumleve Thanks for the advice.
Jonas-bro, ayt and have time for one Fourier question?
Anyway. Have you got your shit together? Would you know how I can make sure that when I did ./configure and it compiles some stuff in the progress it first signs them with whatevercommand binary before executing? (without modifying this).
@MattN. Yeah.
Still typing.
11:00
@Jonas, I don't think you can do that with autoconf. It is more of an installer than a package-maker and afaik it won't sign binaries for you (but maybe there are some options? try ./configure --help). Build a debian package if you want all that stuff, or sign it yourself with openssl utils.
I can sign it, but when compiling the thing already wants to execute some of its products. On this platform it needs signing before it can do that (which is just one command). And no support for cross-compiling :-).
Perhaps I can do something very ugly and run the sign on every command it tries to execute.
Can you tell me if the following is right:
When arguing why we have that the characters of the torus are complete for $L^2$ we in particular need to show that the closure of their linear hull is $L^2$. We can show this by showing that the characters are an algebra containing 1, separating points. (If we have that we can apply Stone-Weierstrass.)
What I don't understand about this: Stone-Weierstrass gives me density with respect to $\|\cdot\|_\infty$. But here I want density with respect to $\|\cdot\|_{L^2}$.
perhaps. don't try to understand autoconf though because that is exactly why it exists. work around it if you can.
Hah, thanks.
@MattN. But... $L^\infty \subset \dots \subset L^2 \subset L^1$.
@JonasTeuwen Oh, I know that, actually! : )
@JonasTeuwen Thank you bro!
11:09
Yes, we've talked about it before! You're welcome! :-).
I'm sorry. Thanks for the patience to repeat yourself to me.
No problem. Repeating things is good. I didn't tell you the answer.
cuz u keep tryna understand it is why!
11:25
Hi anyone here?
can anyone give me a give a quick hint?
Laplace transform of |sin t|
11:37
Some two years ago, I remember doing it by writing it as a sum of integrals over the intervals of $\pi$ and then taking the limit as n tends to infinity for the series. I don't remember if that was the best method we found though, so good luck. I remember things being telescopic though. I will try to solve it again now.
@experimentX: Sorry forgot to tag you.
Lol ... doing the same
thank you!!
11:56
You're welcome. :-)
12:23
@experimentX: If you are interested, there is another method. Since in laplace transform we do not care for values of $x<0$ we can put $|sin(x)|$ as following
\begin{equation}
|sin(x)| = sin(x) + u(t-\pi) \left( sin(t- \pi) + u(t-2\pi) \left( sin(t-2\pi) + ... \right) \right)
\end{equation}

Take the series, evaluate the nth term and then add them up. The method is relatively self-contained since you don't have to explicitly evaluate integrals.

This questions seems interesting, if there is already no such question on the site, we might consider putting it up. What do you say?
yep!!!!
Oh ... step functions?
thanks ... for new way!! i had trouble with intervals of pi
Okay. Good.
:-)
Hi folks
12:35
Hi
12:47
Hi Old John.
@MattN. Hi Matt - how are things?
@JonasTeuwen I have another Fourier question for when you get back: that result about countable subsets, ($\|x\|^2 = \|\sum a_k x_k \|^2 = \sum |a_k|^2 < \infty$), can we say something similar about uncountable subsets $x_\alpha$?
@OldJohn Good again, thank you : )
@OldJohn Btw, I don't know if it is of interest to you, but someone told me you're interested in $p$-adic stuff and I've written a detailed answer about a $p$-adic question of mine.
I'll bbl.
@MattN. Thanks Matt - I will take a look
user19161
@robjohn I did not know you have a beard.
@JasperLoy Me neither - gone up in my estimation :)
13:32
i have a beard. i guess it's a beard. it's hair. on my face. it is slowly trying to march on my adam's apple.

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