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00:00
@HenryT.Horton I put your gun between the compass and straightedge, didn't you see it?
@JonasTeuwen irony?
@robjohn No.
@JonasTeuwen yes, that's what I say :-)
@robjohn Oh. Just "Irony". Okay.
@robjohn Perhaps that is the best.
@skullpatrol I have it now. I'm going to test it out
00:03
@HenryT.Horton Have fun ;-)
@HenryT.Horton Can I think of a class as collection of objects satisfying certain logical sentence?
"a class is a collection of sets (or sometimes other mathematical objects) which can be unambiguously defined by a property that all its members share."
@HenryT.Horton ¿....?
It's a quote from Dr. Wikipedia
@HenryT.Horton I'm asking you, not Wikiepdia.
00:10
I'm a computer.
@HenryT.Horton I'm still thinking about $R^{-1}R$ and $RR^{-1}$
Writing some stuff about R 8-).
@HenryT.Horton WILL WORK FOR HINTS.
@JonasTeuwen What is R?
@PeterTamaroff Statistics OSS.
00:25
@JonasTeuwen An OS?
OSS?
A Nazi OS?
@JonasTeuwen What is OSS?
Open Source Software.
@JonasTeuwen Oh, how cool!
00:26
@JonasTeuwen Glenn Gould is a Demi God.
I'm listening to this now-
Here's a cool R + $\LaTeX$ thing: statistik.lmu.de/~leisch/Sweave
Hmm, I guess it already comes with R. Maybe everyone knows about it
@HenryT.Horton Yeah, pretty cool eh?
@HenryT.Horton Don't know about that - but I do.
It sounds nice. I've never had the need for such a thing, though.
Neither did I.
But I feel like busting some statistical proof.
"Busting papers using the iPad".
That will be the next .html.
@HenryT.Horton I got something. Would you mind giving me a hand?
00:34
<places hand on your inner thigh> This hand?
@HenryT.Horton I'm disgusted by that. No joke. I'm trying to be serious now.
Well, what do you have
@HenryT.Horton Let $R$ be a relation on a set $X$ and consider $I$ to be the relation of equality on $X$. It is clear that $RI=IR=R$.
Now, what is the connection among $R^{-1}R$, $RR^{-1}$ and $I$?
I have this:
If $xRR^{-1}y$ then there is a $z$ such that $zRx$ and $zRy$
Similarily, if $xR^{-1}Ry$ there is a $z$ such that $xRz$ and $yRz$.
Now I need to relate that to $I$
$I$ can be thought as the identity map on $X$.
Peter... Is there SUPPOSED to be a connection?
Is this an exercise that is in a book or did you just ask this to yourself?
@HenryT.Horton Halmos asks "Is there a connection among $I$, $RR^{-1}$ and $R^{1-}R$?"
After saying $I$ is a multiplicative unit
00:44
Do an example.
$X = \{1,2,3\}$, $R = \{(1,2), (1,3)\}$
Compute $RR^{-1}$ and $R^{-1}R$ for me, dawg
A VAX COFF executable. That is quite... peculiar.
@HenryT.Horton OK. Here
$RR^{-1}=\{(2,2),(3,3),(3,2),(2,3),(1,1)\}$
@HenryT.Horton I think I got it
$I\subset (RR^{-1}\cup R^{-1}R$)?
$R^{-1}R=\{(1,1)\}$
Errata:
$RR^{-1}=\{(2,2),(2,3),(3,2),(3,3)\}$
$R^{-1}R=\{(1,1)\}$
@HenryT.Horton Dawg?
@PeterTamaroff Now leave $R$ as is and let $X=\{1,2,3,4\}$
00:53
I haven't read back everything, is there an assumption that would prevent that?
@HenryT.Horton What about what @robjohn is saying?
Now do $X = \{1,2,3,4\}$, $R = \{(1,2), (1,3)\}$
@HenryT.Horton OK.
$(4,4) \notin RR^{-1} \cup R^{-1}R$ in this case
@HenryT.Horton That is what I was trying to say earlier.
00:56
@HenryT.Horton I should get the same, shouldn't I?
@robjohn I was too lazy to look at what you guys previously discussed
@PeterTamaroff Yes
@HenryT.Horton I imagined.
So what can we say about all this?
That there will always be a restriction of $I$ as a subset of $R^{-1}R\cup RR^{-1}$?
RRURR HURR DURR
Sure, but it's not really saying much
@HenryT.Horton Blergh. I just wrote some stuff that end in nothing.
I mean, in my notes.
At least you still have legs.
01:01
@HenryT.Horton What?
01:14
@anon Some flagging going around, huh?
falgging?
If you mean in the chatroom, then I dunno cuz I'm on other tabs.
@HenryT.Horton Your "hand" joke was flaggable by foreigners to this room, IMO-
I hope you're scarred for life.
01:18
@HenryT.Horton You're weird.
Like, bad weird!
^_^
Then stay away from me, because it'll get much worse than this
@HenryT.Horton I'm good. I'll keep up with it as long as you keep up with my questions.
This experience is going to change you forever.
@HenryT.Horton Are you in the US?
01:23
@HenryT.Horton I like to know at least a tad about you. I mean even anon told me where he's from.
I lived in Omaha as well at one point
02:11
@ZhenLin Poset means partially ordered set. Coset means completely (ie totally) ordered set?
or does complete and total mean different things?
That's not what coset means.
@ZhenLin I was guessing, sorry.
Well guess again.
I know totally ordered sets are usually called chains.
@HenryT.Horton I have no idea what else it can mean.
coset is from group theory, not order theory, so has a very different meaning
02:16
Though, a coset of a totally ordered set tends to remain totally ordered.
eh? few groups have translation invariant total orders. without translation invariance of the order, the order restricted to one coset may look totally different from that of another
or at least intuitively, it should be few
eh, nevermind
At any rate, a complete ordered set to me should mean a complete lattice.
@PeterTamaroff A group, like the set of all symmetries of a square ,might contain a subgroup, like the set consisting of just the identity symmetry and the reflection across the vertical axis. You get a coset of this subgroup when you take each element of it and then multiply by some group element, say a quarter clockwise turn, giving a set { quarter clockwise turn, diagonal reflection } which is the "right coset" of the original subgroup.
You can do some stupid carry over of the order from the subgroup. I was not going for meaningful orders ;)
@PeterTamaroff (It's not supposed to be immediately obvious why this is an interesting thing to consider.)
02:21
@MarkDominus Hehehe OK. What should the co prefix convey?
Complementary.
but there's a difference between artificially creating a pattern versus a pattern "tending" to occur..
@ZhenLin I imagined.
@PeterTamaroff Often "co" conveys complementary-ness, but not in the case of cosets, I think.
@MarkDominus Thanks for that, BTW.
02:22
For cosets I think it's the "co-" that you find in "cooperation" and "colocated".
@PeterTamaroff Sure, although I'm not sure how much use it was.
cosets are disjoint and collectively cover a group, so I feel "complementary" is apt
I thought the question here wasn't whether it was apt, but whether it was historically correct.
you're familiar with the history?
I am not. I was guessing.
According to math.stackexchange.com/a/100704 , I was correct.
seems so
02:28
Maybe I should mention that it was an educated guess. ☺
$R$ is a relation such that $xRy$ and $yRx$ can't hold symultaneously. What is this property called?
For example, for $>$
@peter: It is "antisymmetric" if $xRy$ and $yRx$ together imply $x=y$.
antisymmetry
@MarkDominus I know that.
You really want non-symmetric.
02:31
That happens with $\geq$,say.
@MarkDominus OK.
@PeterTamaroff Sorry, the right word is "asymmetric".
Antisymmetric irreflexive.
"Another definition of asymmetric makes asymmetry equivalent to antisymmetry plus irreflexivity." wikipedia
We might say $xRy\Rightarrow \neg(yRx)$
"non-symmetric" is much weaker; it just means that $xRy\iff yRx$ sometimes fails.
You might also want to note "trichotomous", which means that exactly one of $xRy, x=y, yRx$ holds for every $x, y$.
02:34
@anon Do you have a link to that?
@MarkDominus Yes.
it's on the antisymmetric relation page
Hee hee. Trichotomy should mean getting your hair cut.
and we should talk about "autokinetica" instead of "automobiles". :p
There's a bit in Winning Ways about a game in which one player is a "square-eater", which they dub a "quadraphage", and then diffidently remark that that mixes two languages, and perhaps should be "tesseravore" instead.
Ooh, Wikipedia has a list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_word
I look forward to seeing this on distantivision.
Joe
Joe
02:45
This looks like a fun post that needs TeXifying: math.stackexchange.com/a/177816/24942
I saw that while reviewing and skipped it...
@Joe The horror.
Joe
Joe
ha, yup - even I'm leaving it and I usually edit often
I have an awesome problem for you guys
prove that any number less than n! can be expressed as the sum of at most n distinct divisors of n!
02:52
Wasn't that a question on the site a few days ago?
Maybe he's trying to steal our solutions to post as an answer.
where?
i have it as hw
I'm sure I remember this, because I remember someone answering about factorial-base representation, and then someone else said no, they have to be distinct.
We can't trust him.
02:53
@anon That "product" integral stuff is quite interesting.
Dr. Prof. @Bill might be of use, @ChuckFernández
it doesnt use calculus
the proof doesnt use calculus
obviously...
really its that obvious?
it's given to you as homework. why would that be given in a calc class? it isn't. why would an e.g. elem NT class require a calc solution? it wouildn't.
02:57
@ChuckFernández This is what I was thinking of: math.stackexchange.com/q/174362/25554
I don't think that's the same question, though related
that question seems easier to me
derp
thought it said unique
so what about my question?
03:01
@anon Hahahaha
Checkmate, number theorists.
@ChuckFernández How many divisors does $n!$ have?
there's a formula for that, with floors and n over prime powers and yadda
@anon Lagrange, you mean.-
03:02
wait, that's p-adic valuation
I suppose the number of divisors is just the product of 1 plus the valuations, so whatevs
@PeterTamaroff ...I do?
@ChuckFernández Have you tried calculating small cases by hand?
Oh, this is actually easy.
Well, if you don't know how to proceed, start by calculating small cases by hand and see what you notice.
And go read How to Solve it.
Pólya, yes.
03:05
@anon Or Legendre? I'm confused now.
Are you sure you have it?
no.
$n=4$ was deceptively easy. $n=5$ seems like it might be harder.
yes, I think it's Legendre
@anon Yes. Definitively. It is Legendre's identity.
Oh well, bed time. I have to make a day trip tomorrow to the distant land of Pyttsburgh.
03:07
It involves $$\left\lfloor \frac {x}{p^n}\right\rfloor$$ if I recall correctly.
im sure you dont need all that fancy stuff
the convo branched in two, in case you didn't notice
I want fancy sauce.
@ChuckFernández Think about the relation between $d\mid n!$ and $x<n!$
how is a limsup = log2 while a liminf is 2?
03:15
@anon Read it again. The lims are for different things.
derp
@anon Hehe
anon's having a bad math day
reading comprehension $\ne$ math
No Excuses
03:19
clarification $\ne$ excuse
@anon Well said.
Well I just successfully took a derivative, so I think I can celebrate by going home and sleeping.
@HenryT.Horton Sleep is for the weak.
Sleep for a week? Sounds like a good plan
See you guys in a week.
04:17
@PeterTamaroff are you talking about the number of powers of a prime $p$ that divides $x!$?
$$\frac{x-\sigma_p(x)}{p-1}$$
@robjohn I meant the multiplicity of $p$ in $x!$, which I guess is that.
I have it has $$\sum_{i=1}^\infty \left\lfloor \frac {x}{p^i}\right\rfloor$$ IIRC
@Eugene Long time no see.
I have stoped with AnalNT a while ago and now I'm doing some Topology.
This thingy came up with a question of another user.
I was trying to see if I remembered the stuff.
@PeterTamaroff This is a bit of a tangent, but you have a beautiful hand! I just saw the scans of the proofs you uploaded.
@FortuonPaendrag Hehe thanks. I had to manage with that: being a lefty, "proper" cursive handwriting is impossible to me.
Oh you're a leftie too. Welcome to the club!
@FortuonPaendrag @JonasTeuwen @JasperLoy are also in the club.
04:28
@Peter Hehe. I just got to that part of the transcript. :D
Are "Lattices" important in Topology?
a little order theory is important here and there in its own right
@anon Basically a lattice is a poset such that each pair $a,b$ is comparable, right?
That is, either $a\leq b$ or $b\leq a$ (but not both?)
no that's a total / linear order
@PeterTamaroff My formula also works, where $\sigma_p(x)$ is the sum of the base-$p$ digits of $x$.
04:35
Oh, sorry sorry.
@anon I'm reading it wrong. Derp.
It says infimum and supremum.
@robjohn I'm not saing your doesn't, but that I don't understand it. Isn't $$\sigma_p(x)=\sum_{d\mid x} d^p$$?
oh hi
he's not using that notation, @Peter
@anon That's why I don't get it.
"it" = ?
20 mins ago, by robjohn
$$\frac{x-\sigma_p(x)}{p-1}$$
04:39
3 mins ago, by robjohn
@PeterTamaroff My formula also works, where $\sigma_p(x)$ is the sum of the base-$p$ digits of $x$.
Is your question, "why would you write for $\sigma_p$ for something when it is already standard that it denotes something else"? the answer is: because he felt like it.
@anon That means you have to produce some sort of division algorithm.
And maybe it loses the essence of the problem.
@PeterTamaroff division algorithm?
It is just division as normal
@robjohn Well, yes that's what I mean.
you also have to divide if you use $\sum_k\left\lfloor\frac{x}{p^k}\right\rfloor$ too
@robjohn --too--
@robjohn True.
04:44
so I assume that most of you guys are in the US?
@DeadMG Why would you assume that?
@PeterTamaroff my formula works much better for binomial coefficients. Things cancel and all you need to look at is the sum of the digits divided by $p-1$
because it's 05:44 in the UK right now, hardly prime chat time- and it'd hardly be primetime in other parts of Europe, too.
even the C++ chat on SO is dead right now
@robjohn Maybe if I understood the derivation of the formula.
@DeadMG 2:45 am here.
@DeadMG I am watching Olympic replays. I think I saw most of them earlier, closer to when they were actually held.
04:46
@PeterTamaroff That's a strange timezone. Where are you- the middle of the Atlantic?
@PeterTamaroff If you look at how your formula works, you will see how the one I cite works...
@robjohn I know how mine works :P
@robjohn Best thing about the Olympics is that they relaxed the Sunday trading laws.
@DeadMG You're coming off as mildly ignorant.
@PeterTamaroff not well enough :-p
04:47
@PeterTamaroff The UK is GMT+1. New York is GMT-5 or -6. Thus it makes sense that GMT-2 would be right between them, geographically speaking- which is right in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
@anon Consider an order relation $\leq$, and its strict order $<$, and a poset $(X,\leq)$. It is correct to say $a\in X$ is minimal if $b<a$ is false for each choice of $b$?
yes
in general there may be more than one minimal or maximal element of course
huh
I guess that, on second thought, the Altantic is much squarer and doesn't cover anywhere near as much as I thought at the top of the northern hemisphere, or the South Atlantic.
my mistake
@DeadMG There world has what I like to call a Sourthern Hemisphere. Strange stuff happens down there. There are people, for example.
@DeadMG Haha no prob.
@PeterTamaroff I know that :P South America and Greenland are just a lot further east than I thought.
04:53
@anon Another matter is the maximum and minimum elements.
Suppose
$$
n=\sum_kd_kp^k
$$
Then look at the contribution of each digit from your method:
$$
d_kp^{k-1}+d_kp^{k-2}+d_kp^{k-3}+\dots+d_k=d_k\frac{p^k-1}{p-1}=\frac{d_kp^k-d_k}{p-1}
$$
Now sum in $k$.
@robjohn Perfect.
@robjohn Your logic appears flawed.
@DeadMG does it?
shouldn't k, as a subscript of d, also be different for each term?
04:55
@DeadMG Maybe it needs a better public persona manager.
@DeadMG What the sum means is $k=0,1,2,\dots$
@DeadMG Those are the contributions for each digit. Then you sum up the contributions.
And $0\leq d_k \leq p-1$
@PeterTamaroff Yes. But in each term, $d_$k$$ is always k, not increasing.
ahem, give me a sec, I'm not too familiar with the MathJax stuff
d_{k}=$d_{k}$
DMG means it should be $d_{\color{Red}{k-1}} p^{k-1}+d_{\color{Red}{k-2}}p^{k-2}+\cdots+d_{\color{Red}1}p+d_{\color{Red}0}$
04:57
@anon Yes.
exactly
@anon only in the $n=\sum_kd_kp^k$
@anon not in the $d_kp^{k-1}+d_kp^{k-2}+d_kp^{k-3}+\dots+d_k=d_k\frac{p^k-1}{p-1}=\frac{d_kp^k-d_k}{p-1}$
@DeadMG But what you do is keep the $d_k$ fixed to count the multiplicity, you see?
@anon those are the contributions of $d_kp^k$ in the $\sum_j\left\lfloor\frac{n}{p^j}\right\rfloor$

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