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11:00 PM
Problems in mathematics are easy to completely describe (within boundaries). Medical answers also need knowledge of say conditions this person had in the past...
And often, people who ask such questions are not competent enough to actually think this could matter.
But a medical SE in a way of research in medicine could actually be quite cool!
 
@JonasTeuwen That's what I had in mind, but one where patients could participate. It would give researchers access to much feedback from patients - just as teachers here get feedback from students.
 
That would be cool. They would need a big disclaimer stating that one should not use this as medical advice.
 
@JonasTeuwen I think it might be prohibitively hard to avoid it being besieged by patients seeking diagnosis or treatment advice.
 
@HenningMakholm Closing that as off-topic?
 
Can it happen fast enough?
 
11:03 PM
Actually that might not be such a problem, given that they have actually already tried some and had a proper diagnosis 8-).
Hmm, one could do some parsing on the text and put the disclaimer.
SE already seems to have stuff that detects certain anomalies.
Bad spelling could be a sign of incompetence in judging ones self.
 
And can a community reach a workable consensus on which questions are request for medical advice in the first place? See Wikipedia's "reference desk" for an example of caution run amok.
 
Forbid them completely would be the solution and use it as a research oriented website.
People who actually understand these things and are patients could phrase it in such a way.
 
@HenningMakholm Don't you know any speedup theorems a la Godel that you can invoke on us?
 
Or one could connect it to reputation what kind of questions one can ask.
I am not sure of SE has website related extensions or if it is the same software everywhere.
 
No doubt someone has thought about this since if done correctly one could make big bucks. Perhaps SE does have things like this in mind down the road, and we're all guinea pigs beta testing the software before it goes prime-time commercial.
 
11:07 PM
@JonasTeuwen Are you familiar with how "forbid them completely" works at Wikipedia? If you ask: "I've noticed that both my hands have the same number of digits, and I wonder how such symmetry comes about during gestational development -- what is known about that"? -- then your question will be erased faster than you can click submit, and you will be told snottily to go see a real doctor to find out whether your number of fingers constitute a congenital defect.
 
@HenningMakholm Yeah... How about only asking questions after some rep?
As a proof of competence, somehow.
 
@JonasTeuwen That would be an absurdly high barrier of entry.
 
@HenningMakholm Could you tell me about Wiki Ref Desk in a nutshell? I've never seen it before. Is it similar to Yahoo questions?
 
I can only ask these guys anything if I prove to them first that I can answer their questions, and so don't need to ask my own ones anyway?
 
@HenningMakholm Yep. But then you would not get such things as the ones you describe as actually humans and not a machine judge you.
@HenningMakholm Not necessarily. Perhaps you can answer questions in a different field. Or you require only this condition for the .
But I agree: it will be very hard to make this work smoothly.
 
11:11 PM
Here's a meta-meta question: how do you "discover" new intersting sites? How did you discover MSE?
 
Without too much false positives/negatives.
 
@BillDubuque Well, it's a set of wiki discussion pages where people add questions, and then people add their attempts to answer them in a threaded format below. As far as structure goes, it is very low-tech compared to SE.
@BillDubuque Ostensibly the purpose is to help users of the encyclopedia find the right article their question is anwered in, but in effect it's just a general Q&A feature.
(All of this is from several years ago when I was fairly active on the math refdesk).
 
@HenningMakholm I should go browse. Is there much expertise there?
 
@BillDubuque I discovered MSE by having an SO question I was answering migrated here.
 
@HenningMakholm So how did you discover SO?
Is there any site that reviews new websites?
 
11:15 PM
@BillDubuque I found it by accident. I was a dumb student looking for answers online.
Then I found the website and it was quite cool that you can also answer questions there. Kickass.
 
@BillDubuque Hard to compare based on fuzzy memories. I remember it as pretty good, though I'd say the total amount of expertise one can draw upon here seems to be higher.
 
@HenningMakholm I just searched for "unique factorization" and I see replies by L.C. Washington (famous number theorist), Jack Schmidt, etc. So there is some expertise there. I suppose I should ask Michael Hardy since he seems to be very active.
 
@BillDubuque Discovering SO: I'd been reading programming blogs on and off for some time and noticed Spolsky & Atwood wax lyrical about their new pet project. Thought that sounded like a cheap knockoff of Usenet and didn't investigate it further. But then about a year ago I needed a program with a particular feature and found that my google searches pointed to SO/SuperUser and thought what the heck, I'll give it a try...
 
Does SE have a website where one can ask questions like "Is there a site that announces/reviews new websites?"
 
I think Gödel proved that such a site cannot exist if the Internet is consistent.
 
11:20 PM
@HenningMakholm Internet is certainly not consistent.
 
@HenningMakholm Ha, I knew you'd eventually come back at me!
 
@BillDubuque superuser, I guess.
 
@J.M. I would expect superusers would snub questions like that, but I haven't been there enough to know.
 
Though, like Henning, I think the answer's mostly negative. Digg and del.icio.us can only do so much...
 
"A site that announces/reviews new website" sounds like something like the original pitch for Yahoo. Didn't scale well, I think.
 
11:23 PM
@HenningMakholm ...most of the old-school directory sites, in fact. Remember the "Open Directory"?
 
@HenningMakholm Is there any such beast even for mathematics?
 
@BillDubuque Like Math. Rev.?
 
I like Math. Rej. The crank journal.
 
(A digital version of it, maybe.)
 
@BillDubuque If there is, I haven't heard of it. But then again I'm mostly living under a rock, internet-wise.
 
11:23 PM
@J.M. Yeah, but for math websites.
 
@BillDubuque Maybe we can coax them to expand... :D
 
@HenryT.Horton Are you around?
 
In fact the great thing about Google, back when they started out, was that the PageRank thingie could mostly eliminate the need to explicit human reviews of the sites it indexed.
 
@BillDubuque I presume you've seen the case studies in Dudley's book?
 
Maybe we can sneak it into the meta thread on banner ads! Vote up the add if you like the site.
 
11:26 PM
(Aw, I liked the meat thread.)
 
@JonasTeuwen Re: candida, there ought to be a paste they use for thrush, made also by that Belgian pharmaceutical company. Your doc ought to know about that...
 
@J.M. Resistant.
 
@HenningMakholm My poor old keyboard and old fingers are not a good meat combination
 
@HenningMakholm That's the place where we chew the fat, I guess...
 
@JM I know it exists. Just returns elsewhere. Oh well. Thanks.
 
11:27 PM
@JonasTeuwen Oh? That's supposed to be used for two or so weeks... damn buggers are sticky.
 
Yep, I know.
Works. For a while. Then returns elsewhere, then does not work anymore.
 
@HenningMakholm And we know from here how well "popularity" based rankings work, right? Votes/reviews aren't too useful without knowing something about the expertise of the voter.
 
Then, it's off to the otolaryngologist...
 
@J.M. No, I mean... total. Once even systemic. Nobody seems to know.
 
@JonasTeuwen Mushroom farm, huh? Damn...
 
11:29 PM
Haha. Oh well...
 
@BillDubuque It probably worked pretty well when the link graph was created by authors who didn't know what Google was going to be using it for. Later on, though ... the act of measurement skews the phenomenon being measured.
 
As long as there is fun and party: no problem.
 
@HenningMakholm Why does that sound familiar...
 
@HenningMakholm You're a software engineer too, right? Do you have any interest in building a better platform than MSE?
 
@JonasTeuwen (They're the people who have even worse mushroom farm problems.)
 
11:31 PM
I never completely figured out whether PageRank is so named because it ranks pages, or because if is Page's ranking algorithm.
 
@J.M. "I have never seen this on a non-<...>".
 
@JonasTeuwen T_T
@HenningMakholm It's meant to be both, if memory serves. Page was a jokester of sorts...
 
@HenningMakholm A mystery of life. Like the egg and the chicken? I had a discussion with a biological statistics professor about that.
We ended up arguing when you can call a chicken a chicken and when you can call an egg a chicken egg.
"But what if... the reproduction organs are quite chicky but the rest is not (there are some special enzymes chickonly)?"
 
@BillDubuque That's software developer to you, sir. But I'm not sure what I would improve. Also, I suspect MSE har enough critical mass that it would take a greater-than-usual technical superiority to outcompete it. (Barring some completely atrocious PR mistake by Messrs Atwood & Spolsky).
 
Like Linux <-> Plan 9, Minix,... 8-)?
It is "good enough".
 
11:35 PM
@HenningMakholm I think we could do much better. But we'd need many people to contribute (we have enough expertise in the community). Would you be interested in contributing should such a project every materialize?
 
@HenningMakholm Code monkey? Code farmer? In Dutch one could say: codeboer. I am "lesboer" (lecturer).
 
@JonasTeuwen More like VHS and the Gregorian calendar.
 
MSE is probably an extremely big platform. Check out facebook and some of its technically way superior competitors.
Often, when such a project seems to be working, they end up being bought by the company they were trying to compete with 8-).
 
@PeterTamaroff hi
 
@HenningMakholm For example, abstraction would be built-in to the system, so abstract duplicates would be handled better. Answers could be reused, they could be displayed at the appropriate level of generality based on your profile, etc.
 
11:37 PM
@HenryT.Horton Doing some exercises on subspaces here, pal.
How are you?
 
Hungry
Hoping I posted a sound answer
 
@HenryT.Horton Link?
 
2
Q: Loopspace of Eilenberg Mac Lane space

MattIs the loopspace of the Eilenberg-Mac Lane space K(G,1) dependent only on the cardinality of G? For instance, is the loopspace of K($\mathbb{Z_4}$, 1) homotopy equivalent to that of K($\mathbb{Z_2} \times \mathbb{Z_2}$, 1)?

 
@OldJohn I did not see this, but: cool! :-). For now I can also do the math I like... my advisor is not yet complaining. He just stated: "if the quality is high enough, I am fine with it" (can be even physics).
 
@HenryT.Horton Beats the hell out of me.
 
11:40 PM
@HenryT.Horton Is this your real name or a pseudonym?
 
@JonasTeuwen OldJohn is currently dreaming about flight in mathematical skies...
 
It's my real name, why?
 
@BillDubuque Yep, but I think he will have it in his inbox right?
@HenryT.Horton Because I tried to Google you and failed miserably.
 
@JonasTeuwen If he ever get's his feet back on the ground!
 
@BillDubuque Oh well :-). It's more fun if they are in the air anyway.
 
11:42 PM
@BillDubuque "Display Bezout-dependent answers? (Yes/No)"
 
@JonasTeuwen Or at least on Shoulders of Giants!
@J.M. Only Rob gets to see the Bezout-based proofs! Rob: but HAL, I'd like to really see a proof using ideals. HAL: Sorry @Rob, I've have a hard-coded rule that guards against that.
 
@HenryT.Horton Remember how I wanted to prove that the statement "$f:X\to Y$,$g:Y\to X$ are inverse continuous function" is equivalent to "for every closed subset $F\subset X$, $f(F)\subset Y$ is a closed subset of $Y$"?
 
I wondered about why Newton said this. Would it suggest that he was humble (as in: I have hardly done anything) or would it be comparing himself to Galileo?
I would have to see the text where it is cited from.
 
@JonasTeuwen It was partly for insulting Hooke, who was not of sufficient height... IIRC.
 
@J.M. Wehehe. Newton was probably a midget compared with me anyway.
 
11:44 PM
@PeterTamaroff I'll never forget.
 
@HenryT.Horton Hahaha OK. I succeeded in part.
 
What did you do
 
This:
 
In countries other than this one I really have plenty of problems due to my height! Amd I am even not that tall!
 
@JonasTeuwen Crouching isn't a fun thing to do...
 
11:46 PM
@Bill I would like to say that a user here goes about professing falsehood against my name.
 
Let $F\subset X$ be closed. Then $f(F)=g^{-1}(F)$ is closed for $g$ is continuous. Let $f(F)\subset Y$ be closed. Then $f^{-1}(f(F))=F$ is closed for $f$ is continuous.
That is one way
For the other.
 
@JM I never had any big trouble with that... But quite recently my back starts complaining a bit. No biggie, but still quite annoying. But luckily at my work everything is tall enough! :-). I have a desk which is specially "designed" for tall people 8-). It can be electrically adjusted to "standing".
 
@KannappanSampath I don't know what that means.
 
@BillDubuque Would I contribute as a user? Perhaps. I'm not perfectly happy about being at the mercy of SE Inc. here. However, getting a new site to run robustly requires a cash flow of some sort, so we might simply be swapping SEI for new overlords instead.
 
@HenryT.Horton For each $F\subset X$ a closed set, we have $f(F)=g^{-1}(F)$ is closed, so that $g$ is continuous.
Now I'm missing the proof that $f$ is continuous.
 
11:47 PM
@HenningMakholm "requires a cash flow of some sort" - right; SE's fortune is that it has all these venture capitalists to back 'em up...
 
@BillDubuque Would I contribute programming effort? Probably not. I get a sufficient outlet for that side of me from my paying job. And web programming doesn't excite me terribly.
 
@HenningMakholm The goal would be open-source. I don't know if we'd have any success getting funding, possibly from academia.
 
@BillDubuque The user foists undue complaints and makes sarcastic remarks when I am not on chat, but when other users mention me.
 
@HenningMakholm What if you could do web programming in... Haskell?
 
@KannappanSampath Sorry to hear that. Did you flag the posts?
 
11:49 PM
That would change my opinion for sure.
 
@BillDubuque No, I have not yet done it. But, I would like it if you nuke my account.
 
@KannappanSampath Please don't do that! There are idiots everywhere.
 
What Jonas said. Just keep contributing; don't bother with lame people.
 
@Jonas This is more than what I can take.
 
@KannappanSampath Why would you want to do something so drastic? Usually matters like this can be worked out very easily.
 
11:51 PM
@KannappanSampath That is bad. I mean, you don't deserve to feel that way :-). But still, I think the world is full of idiots and you will have this everywhere. Don't let the idiots win!
 
@JonasTeuwen I agree with the last line.
 
@BillDubuque The coding could conceivably be crowdsourced -- though a project leader with an iron fist, good people skills, and plenty of time to spare would be needed. But for day-to-day operations you'd need some full-time techs.
 
So, how do I handle this problem?
 
@PeterTamaroff Hey baldy, I thought you wanted "$f$ and $g$ are continuous inverse of one another" $\iff$ "$C \subset X$ is closed $\iff$ $f(C) \subset Y$ is closed"
 
@KannappanSampath Notify moderators and ignore it. Don't give it the attention it does not deserve.
 
11:55 PM
@HenningMakholm Right, that's the idea. Many folks would contribute once we got it bootstrapped and it was clear how much better it was. For just one site like Math.SE the maintenance overhead shouldn't be too high, and we'd probably have many volunteers.
 
@JonasTeuwen Hmm, Thank you Jonas. I'll do that and stop thinking about it.
 
@KannappanSampath Good :-).
If I would see such a thing, I would flag it (but I am quite ignorant when it comes to seeing such things...)
 
@KannappanSampath If that happens again please do flag the posts and I will take care of it asap.
4
 
@BillDubuque sure thing if I am here.
 
@HenryT.Horton Yes
 
11:58 PM
Later folks.
 
When I would have write code for a living, I would probably feel the same as when I would have to be a journalist for The Sun. Maybe not if it is a cool company like FoxIT, but there are not many of those :-).
 
Thanks for the Support.
 
@KannappanSampath Goodbye!
 
@HenryT.Horton So I proved the first implication
 
@KannappanSampath Always reach out to the community when you have problems like that.
 
11:59 PM
@BillDubuque OK.
 
If they are continuous then $C\subset X$ is closed $\iff$ $f(C)\subset Y$ is closed.
 

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