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00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 22:00

00:00
That looks suspicious to me, but I haven't thought about it.
why is the order of gcd(m,n)x coprime to n ?
I'm pretty sure that when I came up with my tricky argument I had tried something like this, but that was decades ago.
I dont understand this proof
Yeah, that coprime assertion is wrong, I believe.
yeah exactly what I thought
maybe he is working with additive group?
00:04
Yes, he's writing things additively.
yeah but still dont see why
(m,n) x has order coprime to n
It's wrong.
Give me an example where $m/d$ and $n$ fail to be relatively prime.
I believe that's what's going on there.
let me see
I definitely tried this years ago :P
it is a famous problem
from hiersteins book
00:08
Oh, it's a famous problem beyond Herstein.
It's even in my algebra book :D
haha :D
It's actually needed if you don't have the fundamental theorem of (finitely generated) abelian groups.
So, what's a counterexample?
thinking
This is one of the first things you should have tried yourself.
I was confused about notation
00:10
Hmm, you're right
No, I mean my gcd question.
I thought I could continue with my own proof
LOL @Thorgott. You guys let Mike off the hook way too fast.
In my defense, it was 3am :p
6 and 12
00:11
TRY AGAIN
At least it's reassuring that everyone appears to make the m/d and n are coprime mistake
Yeah, that's where I started 30+ years ago ... Damn I'm old.
That's why you tried to divide both by $d$, @Thorgott.
Yeah, I thought that'd do the trick, but it didn't
it is late here Ted and am about to sleep
I think I must have tried that idea before I got creative and sneaky.
00:13
what is the counter example
I dont think I understood the question either
Aw come on.
because it not possible to find
Two integers $m$ and $n$ with $gcd = d$ so that $m/d$ and $n$ are NOT relatively prime.
I'm not going to give answers just because it's bedtime.
18 and 12
work
gcd is 6
OK, fine!
00:15
:)
So here's a big hint to the correct solution.
I won't give any more hints.
Okay :D
Im also thinking about something that accured to me
Show that you can always find $r,s$ with $rs=d$ so that $m/r$ and $n/s$ are relatively prime.
we cannot have orders 12 and 18 ( being maximal ) to begin with
since order of any element has to divide the maximal
That's assuming what you want to prove.
00:17
so maybe that is why am getting comfused
Yes I know
Well, so you can't even be confused.
This is a perfectly reasonable example where you have to show something goes wrong.
so wait
we want me to show that i can find
r and s , st rs = d
and m/r and n /s are coprime?
are you using random names for variales
or does d mean gcd
$d$ is gcd, as it was in my earlier discussion, yes.
And we're assuming $d<m$ (if $m<n$).
before I sleep
I want to show you my proof for the general case
You'd better make sure it doesn't have a huge mistake like your "special case" did.
00:22
haha no I hope not
I was thinking this way
We assume that n factors as such n = p^i * other terms
and m = p ^j * other terms
and such that i > j
m is maximal order
and n order of arbitrary element
in this case, we would get a contradiction , since order of ab would be p^i+j * other terms
wait wait
no that is not how I argued
I think you'd better go to sleep.
no no i want to find my notes
i promise good argument
just give me couple min
@TedShifrin oh damn it , it was all wrong
smirks :D
00:29
haha
Well, tomorrow, after a good night's sleep, think about my hint and how it might help you.
And, of course, how to prove it.
I dont see it how that could help right now at least
is that for the special case?
Oh well, maybe I take it tomrrow when i had some sleep ! good night Ted and thanks for the help !
No, I'm assuming you have proved that the order of $ab$ is $mn$ when $\gcd(m,n)=1$.
So that's why we want to make up elements with relatively prime orders.
Yes ! I did that
OK, then there is no special case.
00:32
Oh that is good , i shall ping you when i find solution :D
good night! :)
Night!
00:59
@TedShifrin That's not quite fair. Nobody actually read it until now.
Seems like I was not off the hook for very long.
01:18
@MikeMiller LOL, I trust you implicitly. But it's interesting that we all seem to have fallen in this trap. I remember struggling for quite a while and being so proud of the solution I finally found (30+ years ago).
01:29
@TedShifrin I think a proof shouldn't be so long. Let me attempt to salvage it.
I gave my hint above. Once one has the idea, it's not long at all. Maybe you'll still come out with something far better.
Let A be an abelian group, let y be an element of maximal order n, and let x be an element of order m with m > d = (m,n) > 1. Consider the d-torsion subgroup B of A, the set of elements with d*b = 0. Then in the group A/B, we have ord(x+B) = m/d and ord(y+B) = n/d, again maximal.
Because the correct statement is that gcd(m/d, n/d) = 1, we have reduced to the case that we have an element of order coprime to the maximal order.
This is probably an unnecessary reduction...
Yeah, I assigned this question way before quotient groups, but this might work. Does the result lift upstairs, though?
So $x+y+B$ has order $mn/d^2$ in the quotient group. Now what?
Hmm, without anything fancy, we don't even know $|B|$.
@TedShifrin I don't think we need to know |B|, we just need to know that mn/d^2 > n/d to get a contradiction --- that indeed ord(y+B) is not maximal.
Ah.
Somehow the quotient group does magic that requires cleverness otherwise. I'll think about it, but I think this is right.
01:42
I don't think I like this argument much. It's the natural use of the fact that gcd(m/d, n/d) = 1, but it's also much too fancy.
Well, yeah, it's fancy.
Did you see my approach above? Instead of dividing by $d$, you split $d$ up in such a way that $m/r$ and $n/s$ have to be relatively prime (with $rs=d$). I sorta liked that.
I saw that you had to write out the prime factorization, which scared me off a bit.
But I guess I'm hiding that in statements like "gcd(m/d,n/d) = 1"
I don't know that you have to, but that was the easiest way for me to convince myself.
Nah, you can get that statement from the Euclidean algorithm approach.
You can also get it from Bezout (not sure which apostrophe to put)
01:44
That's what I meant by Euclidean algorithm approach.
accent aigu, not apostrophe :P
Bézout
I didn't stop to find a prime-proof way of doing my claim.
There just must be something nice and short.
Preferably even avoiding a contradiction.
That would be cool :)
 
6 hours later…
08:10
Hi everyone! Random question: what is the maximal interval of existence for a solution of a Cauchy problem with a separable ODE and an initial condition?
For example, in a problem I got $y(t)=\frac{-2}{t^2-2}$. In this case the solution is defined on the whole of R, except for $+\sqrt2$ and $-\sqrt2$, or we should consider only the maximal neighbourhood?
The initial datum was $1=y(0)$
So should I find the maximal interval of existence between $-\sqrt2$ and $+\sqrt2$ or is such interval the whole domain of the solution?
Because the local existence and uniqueness theorem states that such system has a unique solution $y(t)$ defined in a neighborhood of $t_0$...
 
4 hours later…
11:54
@Ted I don't think it's that complicated, if $x$ and $y$ have different orders in an abelian group, then $xy$ has order $\operatorname{lcm}(\operatorname{ord}(x),\operatorname{ord}(y))$
Hi @Alessandro
How is it going with exams and everything?
I haven't had exams yet
I think my application is going well, I still need to submit my IELTS score which I'll receive today
and for you?
I'm studying for exams, but I haven't done any yet either
But I'm going to some interesting talks later today so that's good
12:09
Jun 24 '16 at 6:29, by Akiva Weinberger
So Brexit won
Throwback
12:43
@Ted no wait, that was stoopid
I think we used prime factorization for that problem, too
it is sufficient to show that if $g$ has order $p^n \cdot m$ with $p \not \mid m$ for $p$ prime, then some power of $g$ has order $p^n$
if you apply that for all prime factors of the order of two elements, you can construct an element that has as its order the lcm of the two orders
obviously $g^m$ does the trick
this approach doesn't require you to be quite as tricky
Hey @EdwardEvans
12:58
Hey @Lukas
How's it going?
How's it going?
sniped, lol
Pretty well, thanks, studying for the exams in L-functions and adic spaces
and for you?
are you well-prepared to compute some class numbers? lol
Nice :) Studying for Modular forms and crying because my country is being torn out of the EU by racists today
rofl
is that how the AZT exams are?
it depends
Hi guys, can I have a suggestion on how to check if the following series is converges?
$\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{(-1)^n}{4\sqrt{n}}\frac{(16n-4)}{\sqrt{16n+64}}$
13:21
@Balarka are you around by any chance?
I'm stuck on a Riemannian geometry exercise, maybe you can give me an hint?
I want to show that on a connected closed Riemannian manifold the harmonic functions are constant
Feels like maximum principle, although I don't know much about harmonic functions.
But there's no boundary to use any maximum principle (we didn't talk about it though, all I'm supposed to know about harmonic functions at this point is the definition and the fact that Green's identities work on any Riemannian manifold)
Since $M$ is compact, any function $f$ must attain global max at some point $p \in M$. Look at a chart containing $p$?
13:26
the terms don't even converge to 0
That's a ball on the interior of which $f$ attains it's maximum
@BalarkaSen Oh I see now what you meant. Now I have to convince myself that if $f:M\to\Bbb R$ is harmonic also its coordinate representation $\Bbb R^n\to\Bbb R$ is
if there's no boundary then the theorem still holds
since a non-constant function must attain maximum at its boundary, and there's no boundary, then there's no maximum at all
@AlessandroCodenotti Any harmonic function $f$ on a Riemannian manifold $(M, g)$ satisfies $f(a) = \int_{B_{\varepsilon}(a)} f d\text{vol}_g$ where $B_{\varepsilon}(a)$ is a Riemannian ball of radius $\varepsilon$ around $a$, you know that, right?
Nope
I mean I know it for harmonic functions on $\Bbb R^n$, I guess the same argument goes through on a generic $(M,g)$
13:29
Yeah I would imagine so.
You cannot localize to usual harmonic functions on $\Bbb R^n$ when you look at a chart, the metric is different.
In any case if you can prove this, let $a$ be the maximum. Then $f(a) = \int_{B_\varepsilon(a)} fd\text{vol}_g$ implies $f$ is constant $f(a)$ on $B_{\varepsilon}(a)$
Then you argue by looking at the set $\{x \in M : f(x) = f(a)\} \subset M$, say it's open (by above), then closed (direct), etc.
True. However I'm pretty sure there should be a more elementary argument
Maybe. Mostly my definition of harmonicity is it satisfies the mean value property, not the Laplacian thing. I can't think in terms of the PDE
So I wouldn't be able to help you on this I think
Thanks anyway!
I'll ask Ted later if I don't work this out myself in the meantime
How to tell if the equations of motion given represents the translational motion?
@BalarkaSen is that equivalent actually?
13:34
$f(a) = 1/\text{vol}(B_\varepsilon(a)) \int_{B_\varepsilon(a)} f d\text{vol}_g$, I meant, by the way
Forgot to put that scale factor
I knew what you meant
@Alessandro Mostly. If it satisfies the MVP it satisfies $\Delta = 0$ weakly
Because you can satisfies MVP without being highly regular like $C^\infty$ and so on
So if it satisfies MVP and is regular enough for $\Delta$ to make sense in the strong sense it is actually harmonic
I think $\Delta = 0$ implies MVP should be some dumb Stokes' exercise
@Alessandro Believe so.
@BalarkaSen I'm sure we went through the proof in a mathematical physics course in my bachelor but I don't remember it
13:36
@StupidQuestionsInc Hello !
@adeshmishra hi :)
I remember you can switch between the surface and volume mean estimates with a polar coordinates+Fubini argument (this was also discussed in chat recently)
@StupidQuestionsInc If you don't mind much I would like to know the origin of your user name.
@adeshmishra see my profile
13:41
@adeshmishra i'm not too good at mechanics unfortunately ^^
@StupidQuestionsInc Okay, I saw a video on Youtube and she said "in translational motion every point on a body follows the same path"
@adeshmishra yes that's true
@Alessandro I googled around and it seems the mean value property becomes more subtle when you try to average over a geodesic sphere instead of on the ball
I am sure @ÉricoMeloSilva would know this stuff
@StupidQuestionsInc I'm studying the mechanics of deformable bodies and there we got the equation of motion of a point in volume element (under consideration), so for the x coordinate of that point we have something like this $$ x' = x'_0 +\frac{\partial x'}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial y'}{\partial y} + \frac{\partial z'}{\partial z} +...$$
@adeshmishra i'm sorry i don't know, i think you may have a better at the h-bar chatroom on physics.stackexchange
13:47
@BalarkaSen annoying
@StupidQuestionsInc Okay.
14:14
@adeshmishra every point on a rigid body, to be more precise. (And this ignores the kinetic theory of such a solid, ie, you don’t expect every atom of the solid to move exactly the same)
@Semiclassical Thank you sir. I have the equation
30 mins ago, by adesh mishra
@StupidQuestionsInc I'm studying the mechanics of deformable bodies and there we got the equation of motion of a point in volume element (under consideration), so for the x coordinate of that point we have something like this $$ x' = x'_0 +\frac{\partial x'}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial y'}{\partial y} + \frac{\partial z'}{\partial z} +...$$
That equation makes little sense, if only on dimensional grounds
Now my books says, "since this is true for every point therefore the first part of the right hand side represents the translational motion"
I’d believe terms like $x(\partial x’/\partial x)$
But the last three terms make no sense if x,x’ are supposed to be positions
Yeah Yeah, I'm sorry
x' , y' and z' are multiplied in those partial derivatives.
14:20
Ok,
So what my book meant when it said "the first part of right hand side represents the translational motion of the particle in volume element (under consideration)"
What are $x,x’,x_0’$ supposed to denote?
If you have a little time I can tell you my problem from beginning
Now, my question is: how $ \xi_0 , \eta_0, \zeta_0$ tell us that the motion is translational?
14:32
Absent the next page, I’d suppose that what they mean is: Suppose there’s no deformation / rotation involved. Let O and P then be the coordinates of some chosen point, as the entire body moves
"Absent the next page" means?
as in, you haven’t included the next page
So I can’t entirely judge where they’re going with that
I'm including it, it's so mathematical and notational that I thought you would get angry.
I now pick a point A in the body, and ask for its coordinates at two times:
1) Coordinates at time zero with respect to O (Call this $x_0’$)
14:37
2) Coordinates after translation with respect to P (call this $x’$)
The claim is that, since this is translational motion, one has $x’=x_0’$
An example may help:
Suppose I have a ball of radius 1cm whose center moves 1 m to the right without rotating
Okay
Okay
I then track the leftmost point on this ball
Initially, it’s 1cm to the left of the center of the ball. After, it’s moved 1m to the right
But that still places it 1cm to the left of the ball’s center
Yes, I agree
14:43
So long as the ball doesn’t stretch or rotate, that point will always be 1cm to the left of the center
Within their formalism, this means $x_0’=-1$ cm and $x’=-1$ cm
And thus $x’=x_0’$
Since this analysis works regardless of the initial point chosen, we have $x’=x_0’$ for all points
What a great explanation ! Simple and terrific.
@Semiclassical Your explanation has induced a question inside of myself about you? If you don't mind may I ask it?
14:48
To follow up on that, consider what would happen if I compressed or rotated the ball
What is it?
@Semiclassical You seem to be having teaching experience, how old are you (I know you can't tell your age all I want to know are beyond the Phd) ?
Got my PhD, and have done quite a bit of TA work
Not much lecture experience tho
@Semiclassical Yes, Sir please explain
(Clarifying someone else’s explanation is not quite the same as teaching it from scratch yourself)
5
As in, my main experience is helping students in a one-on-one or small group setting
I don’t have experience with lecturing to 100+ students at once for an hour
Are you working on some mathematical or physics theories these days?
@Semiclassical Are you around?
15:15
Was away
I’m working as a “teaching specialist” these days, with my research being more on my own time
But what I’ve been doing lately is mostly quantum foundations work, on the theory side
(In the realm of making it easier to grasp what is going on regarding stuff like Bell’s inequality)
Oh! Something like "Mathematical Foundations of QM" ?
@Semiclassical
15:42
Nah
More like tests of local realism
 
1 hour later…
16:44
@Alessandro I was unsatisfied with the polar coordinates approach back then. I think the perhaps better justification of "integration over ball is integration over spheres and radius" is given by the coarea formula.
There's also a smooth coarea formula that works over Riemannian manifolds, which may be useful to your problem, but I don't really know about that.
17:45
Hi guys, would you mind to take a look at my question and give me some thought? Thanks! math.stackexchange.com/questions/3528142/…
6
Q: How to show this is not a martingale.

RScrlliAssume we have the following stochastic process: $$X_t=\int_0^t e^{B(s)^2}dB(s)\, ,0\leq t \leq 1$$ where $(B)_{t\geq 0}$ is a Brownian Motion. I have to show that $X_t$ is not a martingale. I know that if $t< \frac 1 4$ then $\int_0^t \mathbb E(e^{2B(s)^2})ds < \infty $ and then the process ...

@LukasHeger I'm not sure about details with what you've said. Only when the orders of $a$ and $b$ are relatively prime is the order of $ab$ necessarily the lcm.
18:14
@Ted yeah, I realised that, too
But the prime-by-prime approach works
@LukasHeger We probably have the same construction. I'm thinking of it in terms of writing the gcd as a product $rs$ so that $m/r$ and $n/s$ are relatively prime. Although I tried last night to get $r$ and $s$ from the Euclidean algorithm, that doesn't work, and I have to use prime factorization to get them.
Hi @TedShifrin How are you?
Hi @topologicalmagician.
How do I show the following:
Let $\sim$ be the equivalence relation generated by a relation $x\sim y$ on a non empty set X. Show that the equivalence relation always exists.
First thing, is $\sim$ here the same as the equivalence relation generated by all relations containing $(x,y)$?
We have a particular relation given here. What do you mean "all relations containing $(x,y)$"?
18:27
Sorry, I meant by "all equivalence relations.."
They're asking how to turn a particular given relation into an equivalence relation.
For example, suppose on $\Bbb N$ you take the relation "divides": $m\sim n$ if $m|n$. What then?
yeah, I'm not exactly sure how to approach the problem though. An example would be: "Let $B^2$ be the closed unit disk in $\mathbb{R}^2$. Let $\sim$ be the equivalence relation on $B^2$ generated by $(x,y)\sim (-x,y)$ for all $(x,y)$ in the boundary of $B^2$"
I know what it means for $\sim$ to be the equivalence relation generated by another relation $R$. But those two don't seem the same.
I hope I'm clear
I don't follow.
So you have to impose reflexivity, symmetry (which is automatic in your example), and transitivity.
If $R$ is a relation on a set $X$ then there is a smallest equivalence relation $\sim$ such that $xRy\implies x\sim y$. That I know. $\sim$ is called the equivalence relation generated by $R$. But, the problem with the closed unit disk is talking about an equivalence relation generated by $(x,y)\sim (-x,y)$ , which is not a relation, and as a consequence I'm not sure what that means to generate the equivalence relation in that way.
What do you mean it's not a relation?
18:37
$(x,y)\sim(-x,y)$ is an element of a relation, $\sim$
Call it $R$ and follow your first sentence. I totally do not follow you.
If you're talking about how it's only defined on the boundary, make the relation trivial on the interior.
A relation $R$ is defined to be a subset of $X\times X$.
Oh, I see your problem. $(x,y)$ are coordinates on $B^2\subset\Bbb R^2$.
You're using $x$ and $y$ for too many things and it's confusing you.
AHA! so he means the set $\{$ (x,y): (x,y)\sim (-x,y) $\}$?
No, no.
We're defining a relation on the unit circle and a point on the unit circle is called $(x,y)$.
If you prefer vectors, $\vec v R \vec w$ if $\vec w = \begin{bmatrix} -1&0\\0&1\end{bmatrix} \vec v$.
18:45
Yes, I know that. I meant when he sais Let $\sim$ be the equivalence relation on $B^2$ generated by $(x,y)\sim (-x,y)$ for all $(x,y)$ in the boundary, does he mean the equivalence relation on $B^2$ generated by the relation,$\{$ (x,y) in boundary : (x,y)\sim (-x,y) $\}$?
No, you yourself told me that a relation needs to be a subset of the cartesian product of the set and itself.
I think you're being way too formal about mathematics here. Do you seriously not understand what he's doing? He's leaving the interior of the ball alone and gluing on the boundary by reflecting across the $y$-axis.
That is clear to me, he's identifying points that are not on the y axis.
It's like folding a round piece of bread along the edge.
I suppose this question should clarify my confusion: What is the relation, $R$ in terms of set notation?
that is being generated
It's the set of ordered pairs $\big((x,y),(-x,y)\big)$ for $(x,y)$ in the boundary.
18:50
AHA
Finally
aha
I love you
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
you're the best
you don't know how much this made my day
As I said, you're obsessing too much about formalities, ... but OK. :)
yeah, that's an issue I have. I'm really trying to work on it
I'm not sure how to fix that issue
I think the issue is that I'm self studying all this lol
19:12
But anyways @TedShifrin Thank you so much for your help. I have to go now. Take care and have an amazing day
You too!
19:28
@TedShifrin who's your favourite to win the australian open?
@TedShifrin for that ellipse problem, the person grading my hw said eigenvectors were unnecessary :'-) i wanted to be like "well that's a good attitude if you don't actually care about learning how to use the math we learn" but i kept my opinion to myself.
19:44
2
Q: Is the half iterate of $2\sinh(x)$ - expanded from fixed point $0$ - analytic near the real line $\mathbb{R}$?

mickIs the half iterate of $2\sinh(x)$ - expanded from fixed point $0$ - analytic near the real line $\mathbb{R}$? I know this function has 2 other fixed points apart from $0$, so I'm not sure. Also does analytic at some place imply it satisfies its functional equation(being half-iterate of $2\sinh...

Old question. Still unanswered.
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 22:00

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