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00:00 - 21:0021:00 - 00:00

00:00
Maybe it is imposter syndrome, but I just feel like the people I know at a similar stage of their career are being productive and doing so well. I feel like I am constantly falling behind.
I did the best I could, @Michael. And I was very fortunate to find people to collaborate with pretty early on.
I was never that prolific, and I knew I was in academia more for the teaching than for the volume of papers. I don't know what I'd do today.
DogAteMy: I was never trying to be mean when I wrote my books, but I was trying to write a good book, and that means students would have to work to read it and do the exercises. So I suppose today's students think that's patently mean.
Do you have any advice about how to find collaborators? Is it just one of those things that just happens?
Yeah, I actually don't remember how I ended up with one when we were both grad students. I think I pointed out that I could do a bunch of stuff he'd done over $\Bbb R$ in the complex and projective case. ... Then at UGA collaborations grew naturally out of working together in seminar situations and talking.
00:24
I need some help with a paper I'm writing, what is some pretentious way to describe clamping very boring numbers? Is there an operator or something? For example, b=max(min(a,42),0) if I want to sandwich a number between 0 and 42
Oh, somebody asked my question
9
Q: How to use a clamp function / median in mathematical notation?

DetherocI'm writing some mathematical equations that describe some computations in my program and it's pretty important that it's written correctly. At one point, it clamps or truncates a value, $x$, into the range $[0, 1]$. How would i best denote this in official mathematical notation? My best attempt...

Hello all. I've just finished Moise and Downs' Elementary Geometry. Which Analytic Geometry book should I read next before I read a book for a first course in linear algebra?
linear algebra is more or less completely independent from analytic geometry
00:40
Okay. But I want to read about Analytic geometry. Which book will be suitable as a sequel to elementary(high school) geometry?
Dunno, sorry. I'd be better at the linear algebra question.
Thanks @TedShifrin. I hope I can have a successful career as you did.
"Log-scale informs on relative changes (multiplicative), while linear-scale informs on absolute changes (additive). When do you use each? When you care about relative changes, use the log-scale; when you care about absolute changes, use linear-scale. This is true for distributions, but also for any quantity or changes in quantities." What does an exponential scale inform?
@MikeMiller my analytic geometry was pretty much linear algebra but we don't talk about anything of it explicitly
 
2 hours later…
Bob
Bob
02:48
good evening
 
1 hour later…
04:13
P = NP
0
Q: Expected value of divisors $\leq n$ has a graph that fits a line very strongly.

Shine On You Crazy DiamondDefine the expected value of a a divisor of any $1 \leq k \leq n$ to be $\sum\limits_{x=2}^{n-1} x\text{Pr}(x \mid k; 1 \leq k \leq n) =: E(n)$. $\text{Pr}(x\mid k; 1 \leq k \leq \sqrt{n})$ is the probability that a randomly selected integer $1 \leq k \leq \sqrt{n}$ is divisible by $x$. This is...

Send me my money, thx
@Ultradark
@TedShifrin
yes you Ted, thought you might care that your interwebs will be cracked tomorrow
04:44
@AkivaWeinberger I dunno the punchline, I just mumbled something here.
My guess was area, I think
 
2 hours later…
06:15
@BalarkaSen Fine I'll just say it if you're not gonna think it through
They're exactly equal
 
1 hour later…
07:44
@LukasHeger hey!
@LeakyNun hey!
willst du nimmermehr lernen? :P
I still want to learn, lol
why did you change your handle?
idk, just felt like it
07:45
so how should I call you now?
Lukas?
Lukas heisst Luca auf Italien
welche Feminin klingt
Aber Luca ist ein männlicher Vorname in Italien
jawohl
ein Freund von mir heisst Luca
@LukasHeger willst du spielen?
nein, ich spiele kein Schach
07:53
ok
08:21
@AkivaWeinberger I believe it
@AlessandroCodenotti It is a Banach manifold
See here
@BalarkaSen boy I have a talk tmr
no chess for me today I guess
On what
incompleteness theorems
oh logic eh
cool
08:38
@BalarkaSen boy I'm addicted
play?
 
3 hours later…
11:40
Hey chat.
In reading about the existence of an algebraic closed extension for any field, by S. Lang (credited to Artin)
He denotes the set of all letters $X_f$ for $f \in K[x]$ as $S$
(idk how to define this formally but it’s acceptable)
He considers $K[S]$ says that the ideal generated by $f(X_f)$ is not the unit ideal
If it were, of course there would be a finite combination of terms such that $\sum_i g_i(X_{f_1}, \ldots, X_{f_N})f_i(X_{f_i}) = 1$
But then he constructs an extension such that every polynomial $f_i$ has a root (it’s just the composition of the splitting fields) and he claims that this implies $0 = 1$. Why?
12:34
@LeakyNun cool, what's the intended level of the talk?
12:45
@AlessandroCodenotti undergraduate
@LucasHenrique because each $f_i(X_{f_i})$ would be $0$
@LeakyNun well, this just implies that the remaining factors have sum $= 1$
what remaining factors
let $x_{f_i}$ be a root of $f_i$
then each $f_i(x_{f_i}) = 0$
then the LHS becomes 0
Oh LOL
I forgot that you can apply those separately
An user tried to help me but Lang’s proof appears to be much easier now
in Basic Mathematics, 42 mins ago, by user21820
Take any field K. Let S = { pair (f,i) : f is a polynomial over K and i∈N }. Let T = { field (M,+,×) : M⊆S and +,×∈(M^2→M) and ∀(f,i)∈M ( f applied to (f,i) in (M,+,×) equals 0 }. Define binary relation ≤ on T such that M ≤ N iff M is a subfield of N. Then (T,≤) is a partial order that we can apply Zorn's lemma to. It suffices to prove that every non-empty chain has an upper bound. Indeed, for any chain C in (T,≤), the union U of fields in C is also a field in T.
13:21
There's additive and multiplicative but no dividditive and subtractitive
Is there a 3 dimensional Goldbach conjecture?
14:06
@LucasHenrique As I stated in the other room, that's not true. Where is the proof that the composition (compositum?) exists?
That hides the bulk of the proof, and requires transfinite recursion in some form (Zorn's lemma requires it).
And the "letters" are a problem too. If you cannot define precisely what they are, it means that you don't actually have a proof.
@user21820 well, you actually can, defining $K[S]$ as an algebra generated by (blablabla...)
@user21820 it doesn’t (yet). The problem is that Lang creates an infinite tower of extensions in a problematic way. I’ve send an email to my advisor.
@LucasHenrique No you cannot!! Are you working in a naive (inconsistent) set theory?
@LucasHenrique At least you are aware of that. Any rigorous treatment of field theory must show existence of algebraic closures to be able to deal with compositums in a general fashion.
For example, the theorem that any set of polynomials over a field K has a splitting field relies on either an ambient algebraic closure or transfinite recursion in the same straightforward manner as proving alg. cl. existence.
Is there a proper math term for error estimates in perturbation theory
I keep trying to find details for that but most of what I find are for lattice methods
@user21820 you can. There’s a way to identify it with a subset of $(S^{\mathbb N})^{\mathbb K}$
14:22
@LucasHenrique I know that, but you seem to want more than just as many symbols as polynomials, because you talk about some "algebra". It just doesn't work.
You cannot just say we want this and that symbol to have this and that algebraic relations. That was how ancient mathematicians extended from N to Q to R and then to C, and only in recent times do we have rigorous constructions that demonstrate that extensions with those desired properties actually exist. It's exactly why imaginary numbers were not accepted at first, because "Why should we believe that R can be extended just like that?".
You of course now know how to do a finite field extension, but that was not known back then.
Yes, and I know how to construct $K[S]$
No you don't. You only can do so in an ambient field.
If you do not have an ambient field, you only get a ring with unknown properties.
You keep shouting terms as if would help me giving senseless demonstrations and telling it would make sense later. It’s no help at all.
Either way, thank you for your intention.
14:30
I don't shout terms. These are standard terms. Even the wikipedia article on compositum of fields explicitly states the same.
If you are unfamiliar with standard terminology, you should perhaps get a better textbook.
👍🏻
Let me just say that there is no shortcut to the theorem (existence of alg. cl.). People who say or think there is are not going to get an actual proof of the theorem. Any claimed proof of the theorem will have the same ingredients as the one I gave you. If you're unwilling to learn, I cannot force you to.
You’re unwilling to teach as you assume (or treat me) like an idiot. And if you don’t like this proof, complain with Artin. I’m literally just trying to learn, and his proof is easier to understand, and uses Zorn’s lemma implicitly when talking about a maximal ideal.
I don't assume you're an idiot. You on the other hand assume that you understand a proof when you don't.
When I say you don't, it's based on my experience. It's not because I think you cannot understand.
If you want, I can give you an explicit concrete example to show why the naive idea of K[S] won't work. But other than that, you're going to have to work through the actual proof, because there isn't any way to show that an argument is wrong unless you write it formally in a system like ZFC.
So you've plenty of options. (1) Write a proof in ZFC (or equivalent) and I will check and point out explicitly where you make a mistake (if any). (2) If you ask, I'll provide the concrete example. (3) Just work through the proof I gave you until you understand it. (4) Learn transfinite recursion and the theorem becomes obvious.
14:46
@user21820 Ok, I do accept this. But I’d like to ask for the proof sketch of yours before the proof itself.
It’s utterly incomprehensible,
I agree it's hard to understand in the form I gave you, but that's because you wanted a proof using Zorn's lemma, so the easiest way to actually get a rigorous proof is by that method. I think it's easier if I gave you the proof sketch for the proof using plain transfinite recursion.
It’s utterly incomprehensible because of the formalism (it’s not that I dislike it, otherwise I wouldn’t study math, but I’d like to “really” understand what happening instead of making valid manipulations of logical symbols)
Sure I understand your desire.
@user21820 ok, I agree with that. Proofs by Zorn’s lemma are usually picky.
Let me begin by stating the basic stuff we need for transfinite recursion. A well-ordering is a linear ordering with no infinite strictly decreasing sequence, namely (W,<) such that < is a linear ordering on W and there is no infinite strictly <-decreasing sequence. Transfinite recursion is the notion that we want to construct a sequence that is 'as long as' a given well-ordering, namely a function on W.
14:52
I knew about that. You can proceed
Actually I read about the transfinite recursion, but I don’t know why it’s valid (I suppose it’s a consequence of well ordering) and I know nothing about ordinals
It goes as follows. Take any well-ordering (W,<) and set S. Let A[k] be the set of functions from W[<k] to S, for each k∈W, where W[<k] is defined as { i : i∈W ∧ i<k }. Basically, A[k] is like partial sequences. Take any recursive relation R, meaning R : { A[k] : k∈W } → S. Then there is a function F : W→S such that F(k) = R( F ↾ W[<k] ) for every k∈W.
What’s this little symbol between F and k?
Sorry typo.
It means restriction. F ↾ W[<k] is the restriction of F to the domain W[<k].
This is transfinite recursion. It says that if you have a way to define each point in an W-length sequence based on the previous terms, then you can define the entire sequence.
"previous terms" is captured by "F ↾ W[<k]".
Do you understand the statement of transfinite recursion? For ordinary mathematics, you do not need to know how to prove it, but it is very useful in conjunction with the well-ordering theorem: For every set W there is a well-ordering (W,<).
@user21820 wait, very noob question: what about $\omega > \omega - 1 > \ldots > 1$?
@LucasHenrique There is no such thing as ω−1.
ω is like a sequence of dots towards the right, in the same order as N.
ω+1 is like ω plus an extra dot after all the rest.
There is no ω−1.
15:05
IIRC for von Newmann $\omega = \mathbb N$ right?
Yes we could define N = ω and define arithmetic operations +,· on N to construct the naturals. But it's not needed here.
@user21820 oh, so that’s why there’s no infinite descending sequence? Like, you’ll always have a “new rank of infinity with $\omega$ much numbers until the next”?
The definition of well ordered set I know is that every non empty subset has a least element
Obviously, w.r.t the order that makes it well ordered
@LucasHenrique That's an equivalent definition under mild assumptions. It doesn't matter which one you use.
@LucasHenrique I'm not sure what exactly your asking about "rank of infinity", but I can at least tell you that not every element in a well-ordering is the 'next one after ω many previous elements'.
@user21820 I’ll use the second one since it is more natural for me, if you don’t mind. If it has relevant differences, I’ll adapt to the one you gave
You will find that you don't even need to care which one, because of the other theorem I stated:
> For every set W there is a well-ordering (W,<).
15:11
I’m trying not to get into too crazy set theory since my study goal is Galois theory.
That's why I'm just giving you the theorems you need. You can if interested look at their proofs at another separate time.
So. These two theorems are all you need. Transfinite recursion plus well-ordering theorem.
Now here is the proof sketch of existence of alg. cl. of a field F. Construct a set S that is big enough to have enough elements to assign to each 'root' of a polynomial over F. Use transfinite recursion to go through each polynomial g over F one by one. At each step we have constructed a chain of fields, one for each previous polynomial, and their union U is also a field. If that union does not have a root of g, then we extend U to a new field that does, using unused elements of S.
Either way, we can assign a field to g that is either U or extends U, and the step is complete.
At the end of transfinite recursion we have a chain of fields, and their union can then be shown to have the root of every polynomial over F, which implies that it is an algebraic closure of F.
The "go through each polynomial g over F one by one" relies on the well-ordering theorem to provide a well-ordering for the transfinite recursion to use. That's it. No actual knowledge about well-orderings or ordinals is needed!
@LucasHenrique: Do you get the gist?
Open ball in R^2 is a product of open in balls in R, right?
No wait never mind
Product of open balls in R is a square lol
@topologicalmagician Was going to say that. =)
@LucasHenrique: I need to go a while, back later.
@user21820 I can partially understand this; idk why $A[k]$ what’s defined like this but I understand the general idea
@user21820, correct me if I’m wrong: set theory definitions usually have complicated constructions to justify and formalize intuitive ideas.
@user21820 np
Thank you for the help
What other good ways could I show that the product topology on R^2 is the same as the standard euclidean metric topology? Other than showing that the identity is a homeomorphism?
15:43
@LucasHenrique You're not wrong. Some of the complications are unnecessary and can be reduced by using a more friendly system, but some are in some sense necessary. The reason is that we cannot use a foundational system that is known to be inconsistent, so the current standard one we use has some technical restrictions that we cannot evade.
@LucasHenrique The idea of 'partial' things is prevalent in rigorous constructions. Often, we cannot directly define each term of a (long) sequence, but we can define how to extend 'partial' sequences by one term.
So I defined A[k] so that I don't have to write out its definition everywhere I used it.
Sorry I made a typo... a recursive relation R is a function R : Union { A[k] : k∈W } → S, or equivalently R : { g : g∈A[k] and k∈W }.
Missed the "Union" there.
If you don't want to care about the set-theoretic issues, just remember that as long as you can extend any sequence (indexed along a well-ordering) by one term, you can extend all the way.
16:12
@topologicalmagician You are given two different bases for a topology: the product topology in terms of rectangles, the euclidean topology in terms of discs. It suffices to show that the rectangles are open (in terms of discs) and also that the discs are open (in terms of rectangles).
Then the two bases generate the same open sets.
17:04
Yet another spherical question: Suppose I have two spherical triangles on the unit sphere, with sides $a,b,c$ and $a’,b’,c’$ respectively. (By sides I mean the geodesic distance between vertices.) Must there exist a spherical triangle with side lengths $(a+a’)/2,(b+b’)/2,(c+c’)/2$?
I have reason to think the answer is yes, but I really don’t see a geometric answer yet...
17:20
I think you should be able to use the law of cosines to produce it geometrically. I guess you need to know that for some ordering of those lengths, you have $\cos a'' > \cos b''\cos c''$.
Greetings, a @Balarka.
Hi @TedShifrin
I’d like to understand enough algebra to get into algebraic geometry. I’ve really liked multivariable calculus (which leads to surfaces and stuff)
For instance, basic commutative algebra
Sadly, the algebraic approach tends to hide so much of the geometry/topology.
Hi professor @TedShifrin I read the preface of Spivak's book and I saw you mentioned there for having made a couple of exercises there, can I ask how was it back in the time with respect to the exercise business compared to now? sorry if this sounds like a very convoluted question
LOL ... I wrote probably several hundred, actually. This was back in the late 70s, although I did contribute some changes to editions after that. I don't understand your question. "Exercise business"?
17:39
@TedShifrin I mean where did u get the inspiration
I don't have an answer. A few questions were suggested by some other people. I honestly don't remember. In the meantime, I've written lots of books and thousands of exercises.
To reflect a dynamical system phase portrait $f(x,y)$?
how do you do it?
I want to do it about the line !x=1/2$
nvm got it
$f(-x,y)$
for this one...
18:13
@TedShifrin the weird thing is that, if I replace those side lengths (aka central angles) with their cosines, then I’m entirely confident that convexity holds
But I want it on the angles, which seems more obscure
Yeah, but can't we use the law of cosines ("backwards") to geometrically construct the triangle?
Hmm. It’s a sound idea, yeah
I don't think you even need an intermediate value theorem argument :P
That said, I remembered a book which was useful for this kind of problem before, so while I was away I tracked it down. And, indeed, I think I’ve found a theorem of theirs which addresses this (and a lot more)
So that’s neat
Amusingly, it turns this into a graph theory problem :P
Hmm, interesting.
18:19
suppose you take your points on the sphere and you’re interested in some subset of the side lengths. I can use that to make a graph, with vertices corresponding to points on the sphere and edges corresponding to relevant side lengths
Their theorem applies so long as that graph doesn’t contain a $K_4$ minor
I know no graph theory.
I’m pretty clueless myself. Apparently a graph G containing a graph minor H means that you can get H from G by contracting and/or deleting edges
Hello
If $q:X\rightarrow Y$ is a quotient map and $U\subseteq X$ is a saturated open or closed subset then $q|_U: U\rightarrow q(U)$ is a quotient map.
$q(U)$ $\iff$ $q|_U^{-1}(V)$ is open in $U$ How do I show the backwards direction?
I've been able to show the front direction
My cases of immediate interest correspond to the 3-cycle and 4-cycle graphs (ie some number of vertices connected along a circle) and those definitely don’t contain K4 minors
What you typed doesn't make sense, @topologicalmagician.
18:26
Suppose $q$ is a quotient map and $U\subseteq X$ is a saturated open set. Then $q|_U:U\rightarrow q(U)$ is continuous, and q(U) is open in $Y$ and further, $q$ is surjective.
I must show that $V$ is open in $q(U)$ $\iff$ $q|_U^{-1}(V)$ is open in $U$. If $V$ is open in $q(U)$ then because $q(U)$ is open in $Y$, it follows that $V$ is open in $Y$ and by continuity of $q$,
$q^{-1}(V)$ is open in $X$.
What that’s leading me to (for external reasons) is whether k-colorable graphs can contain K4 minors
Now I need to show the reverse implication @TedShifrin
I suspect that 2-colorable graphs can’t but 3-colorable graphs can
in my above attempt^
What if you take $q(q|_U^{-1}(V))$?
18:30
@TedShifrin but $q|_U^{-1}(V)$ isn't necessarily open saturated in $X$
Is there a 3-dimensional
hi
Why do you need it saturated in $X$?
hi @anakhro.
Is there a 3 dimensional goldbach conjecture?
How have you been, Ted? Good christmas/new years and stuff?
18:32
I think I've seen you since the new year, @anakhro. But HNY to you!
@TedShifrin never mind you don't. But $q(q|_U^{-1}(V))$ $=$ $q(q^{-1}(V) \cap U)$ $\subseteq V\cap q(U)$
I'm not sure why thats relevant
I think we did say hi maybe a few times.
When do you have $f(f^{-1}(Z)) = Z$, @topologicalmagician?
@TedShifrin when $f$ is surjective
$q$ is the quotient map, so it is surjective
I am revising my question: "Is there a 3 dimensional Goldbach comet?"
18:34
Aha.
Scratch the above: the correct statement I’d
I think it's impoopsible because primes are in their most primal form
Scratch the above: the relevant conjecture is for complete k-partite graphs
Is Wikipedia a good source for a brief introduction to mathematical information?
@TedShifrin any ideas?
18:39
I thought we were done, @topologicalmagician.
$U$ is saturated, so $q|_U$ is surjective.
by $q|_U$, I meant $q|_U : U \rightarrow q(U)$
as mentioned above
But you're talking about subspaces of $q(U)$.
@Ultradark depends on the topic
i feel more confident trusting Wikipedia as a source when the area of research is more settled
@Semiclassical okay, but it's probably better to work through a textbook i guess
18:42
what about nlab?
that seems much more in depth
If you can understand nlab, yes
But nLab is very much not intended for a general audience
I understand maybe 4 things per 100 lines on nlab
@TedShifrin I'm a bit confused
Both nlab and wikipedia pages alike suffer sometimes from being not written the best.
$U$ is saturated, $q|_U$ is surjective, I totally agree
18:44
I thought you wanted $V$ open in $q(U)$.
Textbooks are more likely to be written better than a wikipedia article. That being said, some wikipedia articles are phenomenally written.
I count an nLab page as useful if I can understand the first paragraph :P
I have very mixed experiences with wiki, although I do contribute some money every year :P
@TedShifrin $q(q|_U^{-1}(V))=V \cap q(U)$
But $V\subset q(U)$.
18:49
ooooh yeah lmfao
Whew. :D
haha :P thanks so much
Sure thing.
for some reason, although I mentioned its a subset of $q(U)$, I kept treating it as though it was a subset of $Y$ lol
silly me
I always find problems with quotient maps intimidating ...
18:52
yeah, I just started quotient maps and its self study so its a bit challenging lol
but I find it really fun
@TedShifrin in the context of what objects?
@TedShifrin did you look at Sheldon axlers new book on measure theory? I'm two chapters in and its amazing
p cool, In 2-dimensions turbulence self organizes from small eddies to large ones
but in 3d its the opposite
@Ultradark I have a problem for you.
I think you will enjoy it.
I will consider it
go ahead :)
18:59
@topologicalmagician: No. I no longer get math books.
@Ultradark Suppose you get lost on your boat at sea. You have a device that indicates your distance from coast is 1km, but you have no idea the direction you should head to get to the shore. You know also that the coast is linear, being perpendicular to the line between your location and the coast itself.
Q: what is the minimal length of a path which guarantees you meet the coast?
This reminds me of the police boat trying to chase the escaping prisoners in the fog, @anakhro. I gave that to my differential equations students when I was teaching in grad school.
what is the current?
what's the wind velocity?
@TedShifrin can you tell me this one, or link me to where I can read it?
@Ultradark no current or wind. All the information needed should be in the problem statement.
The prisoners escape from an island at some point during the night and steal a boat that goes $5$ mph. Some time later, the staff notice and sound out a boat that goes $10$ mph (or whatever, but faster) to capture the prisoners. There is a dense fog and so they can't see the escapees. Assume only that the island is far enough from land that throughout this process everyone is still in the water. What path should the staff follow to be guaranteed of intercepting the escapees?
19:11
Cute. No assumptions on the path of the prisoners?
Oh, sorry. The prisoners follow a straight-line path (assuming they're heading to the shore, but in the dark and fog they can't be sure).
@anakhro $W=A \cup S^1$
Okay, thought so!
@Ultradark what is A?
topologist's whirhlpool is $W$
Isn't that an infinitely long path?
19:15
$f(\theta) = \dfrac{\theta}{1+\theta}e^{i\theta} = \left(\dfrac{\theta}{1+\theta}\cos \theta, \dfrac{\theta}{1+\theta}\sin \theta \right)$
just folow the path until you see the coast
and then go in the direction of the coast
yes you could be an idiot and keep getting asymptoticall closer to the coast
but then you'd be awful at surviving
I mean, it has to be some spiral. Only question is which one
That looks like a very long spiral to take.
@Semiclassical you'd be surprised then.
oh it's $6/\pi^2$
19:19
I am entertained by the act of figuring out extremely inefficient solution to a problem
Like "How inefficient can you make it?"
@anakhro: The difference with your question is that you know the precise distance to the shore.
@Rithaniel: You trying to be efficient at maximizing inefficiency?
@TedShifrin leaves it to be much more of an optimization problem unlike yours (I think?)
@Ultradark 6/pi^2 is not the answer.
@anakhro I think I can do it in $3\sqrt{2}$ kilometers
@TedShifrin Exactly XD
19:22
you commandeered my question @AlessandroCodenotti!
@anakhro: Mine is more like a classical pursuit problem, although not literally that, either.
@AlessandroCodenotti I think that is too small.
I was first given that question my freshman year in college, I think.
did I really just find the least efficient solution
19:23
A number less than $1$ cannot be a viable answer.
fibonacci spiral
There is no least efficient solution, technically speaking.
@anakhro hm, maybe I'm thinking about the question wrong
rolls 22/7 eyes
19:24
For any path you come up with, just append to the start a little detour through the interior of the circle and it is automatically a longer path.
oh
I get it now
@anakhro isn't your question the same as "you're in the center of a square of side $2$, what's the shortest path that touches all sides?"
it's like universal cover problem
@Alessandro: You're forgetting rotational symmetry.
What do you mean?
19:27
Circle of radius 1, what's the shortest path which meets each tangent to the circle, @AlessandroCodenotti
Why do you assume the shoreline can only be at 4 possible angles?
Oh I see the issue
$\pi+1?$
@anakhro phrased like that it sounds hard to do best than "walk straight to the circle and turn around it"
so $\pi+1$
19:29
Well at least you finally found the naive solution. :)
@AlessandroCodenotti, that is.
ultradark seems to have made an arithmetic mistake.
Is my solution salvageable?
What is the path for your pi + 1 solution?
If it's the same as Alessandro's, then I am afraid you made an error in your math.
you go straight across and hit the coast
1km
run arround the coast
small series question: assuming the series of $a_n$ and $b_n$ are convergent, does it follow that $c_n=\sum_{k=1}^n a_kb_n+\sum_{k=1}^{n-1} a_nb_k$ is too?
I'd appreciate any hint
$\pi$km
then you add them
I don't know what I'm making a mistake with
19:33
@StupidQuestionsInc: Do you know the terms are all positive?
@TedShifrin they're not necessarily all positive
What's the circumference of a circle of radius 1, @Ultradark
oh 2pi
i was calculating the area
In any case, I will give the hint that 1+2pi is not the optimal length..
but is it the naive solution?
19:34
@StupidQuestionsInc: Separate the two series there first. Does each of them have to converge?
It's the solution that people generally come up with first, @Ultradark
Remember you're asking about a series built out of series.
@TedShifrin looks like $b_n\to 0$ and $a_n\to 0$, and $c_n=\sum_{k=1}^n a_kb_n+\sum_{k=1}^{n-1} a_nb_k=b_n\sum_{k=1}^n a_k+a_n\sum_{k=1}^{n-1} b_k$ so can I immediately say that it's convergent?
oops actually the questions asks whether $\sum_{n=1}^\infty c_n$ converges
Right.
my gut feeling is that $\sum_{n=1}^\infty c_n$ doesn't converge, but I wonder how I can put a convenient inequality with $\sum_{n=1}^m c_n= \sum_{n=1}^m b_n\sum_{k=1}^n a_k+\sum_{n=1}^m a_n\sum_{k=1}^{n-1}b_k$
19:39
First, I recommend you just work with one at a time first to see what's going on.
Next, inequalities aren't going to do it if you're playing around with signs.
If both series converge absolutely, you can probably prove something.
ok let me try
Do you know an example of convergent series $a_k$, $b_k$ where $\sum a_kb_k$ does not converge?
yes
$a_k=b_k=\dfrac{(-1)^k}{\sqrt{k+1}}$
Aha. Keep that in mind, perhaps.
so do your sequences start at 0 or 1...?
19:42
Shaddup, @Leaky.
@LeakyNun doesn't matter i guess
ok let me try the $a_k=b_k$ sequence above
no luck so far
Are you working just on one series at a time? This problem is crazy complicated if you do both at once. I have no idea what the answer to that is yet.
I was woking on $\sum_{n=1}^m b_n\sum_{k=1}^n a_k$
$a_k=b_k$ as defined above
Yeah, I suggest you use that example for one, but not the other, but my question had a point.
@anakhro does the device say that the closest you are to the coast is 1km?
or does it just say, you are at most 1km away?
19:56
I'm really sorry but I couldn't find any way because the double sum uses different indices, I know that if we had $\sum_{k=1}^n b_k\sum_{k=1}^n a_k$ then we could perhaps use that $$\sum_{k=1}^n b_k\sum_{k=1}^n a_k=n\sum_{k=1}^n a_kb_k - \sum_{1\leq j<k\leq n}(a_k-a_j)(b_k-b_j)$$
We're looking at $\sum_{n=1}^\infty \sum_{k=1}^n a_kb_n$? Here's a suggestion. Name $\sum_{k=1}^n a_k = A_n$.
oh
ok
i see where this is going
how do you prove that an interval with 2 distinct elements is uncountable using the lebesque outer measure?
oh
so this is as far as I could extrapolate $\sum_{n=1}|b_nA_n|>\sum_{n=1}|b_na_n|$ and so it diverges, but I couldn't reach anything concerning conditional convergence
20:22
@user21820 Pardon if I'm being naive, but I don't understand your claims that the construction of K[S] is the bulk of the proof and needs some kind of transfinite recursion. K[S] exists as a set, this has been agreed upon. But the additional ring structure required on K[S] can be defined and checked explicitly. Alternatively, constructing it as direct limit of the polynomial rings in finitely many of the variables (and these can be constructed using plain induction) should work.
20:48
@Ultradark it says (at one time only) that you are 1km away from the coast (the coast is described as in the question).
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