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16:00
from the book I've got on my table right now:
In my opinion, many mathematicians are lost in abstraction and then do not really understand the intuition behind many concepts.
Why don't you open a textbook nbro?
I'd argue that intuition was not the main driving force behind the formalization of probability in a measure theoretic setting
@tigre What are you talking about?
It sounds like you've been confused for days, whereas a mathematician would just get it all down from a textbook
16:01
Any mathematician worth their salt is pretty clear on what intuitions behind the terms in basic probability is
The pdf is simply not a measure, if you call a false statement an "intuition", that's pretty dangerous
the pdf is what is known as a Radon-Nikodym derivative
"Let $X$ be a random variable from a probability space $(\Omega,\mathcal{F},P)$ to a measurable space $(\Psi,\mathcal{G})$. For $B\in\mathcal{G}$ let $Q(B)=P(X^{-1}(B))$. Then $(\Psi,\mathcal{G},Q)$ is a probability space. The probability measure $Q$ is called the distribution of the random variable $X$ and is said to be induced by $X$ (or by $X$ from $P$)."
With a comment at the bottom of the page: "Note that every distribution is a probability measure, and that every probability measure is a distribution (induced by the identity function), so 'distribution' and 'probability measure' are essentially synonymous terms that tend to be used in somewhat different contexts."
You just talk about definitions because you look them up and you follow the rules. My impression is that you don't know many times what you're talking about. In fact, you didn't even mention this simple thing $p_X(x) = \mathbb{P}(X=x)$, which clearly shows that you don't know what you were talking about and then you were claiming that a probability distribution is a probability measure, as if this was the absolute definition, but it isn't.
I didn't mention it because the pmf is a useless notion for continuous distributions
Oh hey star board
I also imagined anyone conversing about measure theory would know the definition of a pmf
which is a fair thing to assume in general
16:05
Whatever!
ok let me try again:
$\bar{a}b = a \bar{b} = \longline{a \bar{b}}$ so $\bar{a}b$ is real
$ab = cdr$
Multiply both sides by $\bar{a}\bar{b}$
$a\bar{a}b = \bar{a}cdr$
$(a\bar{b})(\bar{a}b) = \bar{a}\bar{b}cdr$
so the LHS is real. Since $r$ is real, $\bar{a}\bar{b}cd$ must be real
lol
@Secret This I agree with, in the case that $(a,b)\sim (c,d)$
Conclusion: the expression "probability distribution" can also refer to a p.m.f. or even, indirectly, to a p.d.f., but it almost always refers to a c.d.f. and a probability measure, depending on the nature of the r.v. (discrete vs continuous).
i mean, yes, knowing the p.m.f. is basically equivalent to knowing the probability distribution for a discrete random variable. doesn't mean that it's sensible to equate the concepts in general
If people here have no idea what they're talking about (I have to agree with you that there is at least one user fitting that description) why do you keep coming back to the chat instead of consulting a more reputable source?
4
16:09
Because I think it's important to discuss (for the purposes of learning)
@nbro You're not going to like the abstract notion of a correspondence between two sets lol
well theres no point in discussing if you are assuming a priori that the person you are discussing with is incompetent
Just because there's contexts where knowing A is equivalent to knowing B, doesn't mean it's true in all contexts
I am not saying you're incompetent. I am just saying that often you're lost in abstraction (i.e. definitions) and you fail to understand the intuition behind the concepts and connect them.
if they really are equivalent, great. But if they're not, then it's not helpful to insist that they're one and the same when they're really not
16:11
@tigre I am not sure how to argue from this that there are only two equivalence class, but it seems the two equations kind of fix a,b,c,d to only two degrees of freedom
and for the purposes of measure-theoretic probability, there are good reasons to insist that the pmf of a discrete random variable is not the same concept as its distribution.
namely, because not every random variable has a pmf or a pdf.
@Secret One thing you can do is show that $(a,b)\sim (l_1a,l_2b)$ for $l_1\in \Bbb R-\{0\}$ and $l_2\in\Bbb R_{>0}$ (possibly)
Btw, I really appreciate your feedback. This is just my opinion, so it is just an opinion!
@Semiclassical Yes, but you can safely say "for a discrete r.v., the expression probability distribution almost always refers to a p.m.f."
Hmm...
@Secret I.e. that you can scale them individually
16:14
insofar as that represents a common abuse of notation / convention, yes
$(a\bar{b})(\bar{a}b) = \bar{a}\bar{b}cdr$
Let $s = \frac{r}{(a\bar{b})(\bar{a}b)}$
Then we have
$1 = \bar{a}\bar{b}cd s$
$\frac{1}{\bar{a}\bar{b}} = cd s$
@nbro that's correct, and I'd scratch the "almost always". This is essentially because the measure induced by the discrete distribution is indeed the p.m.f.
So all the various notions we have discussed so far agrees
I think the tricky bit there is "refers to"
If I draw a graph of a function, is that the function?
so $\bar{ab}$ is proportional to $cd$ by some real number
$a,b, d \neq 0$
brb
16:16
certainly, if I have a good enough graph of a simple function, I can figure out what that function is doing and write out its definition
There are for variables a,b,c,d and 2 equations, thus only 2 degrees of freedom, thus we can split up the real number $s$ and get the scaling individually
but it seems a bad idea to identify a function with its graph, if only because some functions are not going to have any nice graph
and hence only 2 equivalence class
@Semiclassical It's a weirdly basic pedagogical point but maybe you're right that something like that is indeed the source of the confusion for nbro
That's what I was referring to when I joked that he won't like the 'abstract' notion of a correspondence between sets, since he seems to be suggesting that avoiding conflating things is 'getting lost in abstraction' (where abstraction for some reason means caring about definitions, which sounds fairly concrete to me)
@Secret That's a really nonrigorous argument :P
16:22
simple hard question now in MSE:
0
Q: How to prove the roots of cosine is dense or sparse when a tend to infinity?

SecretSo I am a bit surprised that there isn't a question on this. Recall the first time when you came across the cosine function $\cos (ax)$ as $a \to \infty$ graphically, it intersect the x axis more and more frequently, result in the limit to diverge Now, more familiar with the different kinds of i...

Putting the high school memory of calculus into focus
for a simpler version of that, you can write your cosine function as $\cos(\pi n x)$ for integer $n$
true
then we have a sequence of nowhere dense sets
thus the question boils down to whether the limit of this sequence of sets is also nowhere dense
which many are now warning that defining that limit is not trivial
at which points the roots are of the form (m+1/2)/n
for integer m
I see no reason why that limit should exist
how so?
using semiclassical's case, as $n \to \infty$ the spacing between roots tends to zero
while each step stays nowhere dense
16:27
I see no reason why that limit should be nonempty rather then
what is true is the following: if I pick any point on the real line, then I can choose n large enough that one of the roots is arbitrarily close to the chosen points.
but that's not really about density
true
to pick a simpler example, suppose I consider numbers with n digits in their decimal expansion
for any number $r$ and any $\epsilon>0$, I can always pick $n$ large enough that there's a decimal expansion within $\epsilon$ of $r$
but for any particular finite $n$, I just have a finite list of rational numbers which is certainly not dense
right, so some irrationals will be missed regardless of how big n is
16:56
The core of the Mazur manifolds deformation retracts to a dunce cap, which is essentially a D^2 attached to S^1 by a degree 1 map.
Hi, a @Balarka, @Semiclassic, demonic @Alessandro
This can be seen by observing that $S^3$ minus an unknot deformation retracts to a torus with a disk glued along the meridian. Since the torus gets glued, longitude-to-meridian to the boundary of the deleted knot in $S^2 \times S^1$ which represents the generator of $H_1$, after collapsing a little more we get that the core is a disk attached to a circle by an attaching map that "follows the knot"
Which is degree 1
Hi @TedShifrin!
16:59
@Semiclassic The actual pedantic definition of a function is actually its graph.
I know I'm late to the party, but I think the important is the following: If you have a pmf, a pdf or a cdf (the former two only in case of their existence), then they uniquely determine the distribution (and, essentially, the reverse holds too). The definitions are very clear (and this has been communicated time and time again). However, once you've learned the subject a bit, you should be able to freely translate between these concepts and then all those worries don't matter.
Uh oh
you will awaken the demon inside Alessandro now
What else is new, a @Balarka?
i mean, there's a graph as in "a picture I make" and the formal definition as a subset of $X\times Y$
but that definitely sweeps my rhetoric out from under me
17:01
~~~~~~~
sin(x)
Well, I mean, graphing the ruler function (I forget its fancy name) is not something any of us can do literally ...
Or the characteristic function of the rationals.
But still ...
constant function
___-----_____
constant function over [a,b]
17:02
Unif(1, 2)
I wonder who opened this Pandora's box.
That my friend is a distribution
:3
One of the three different sorts?
--^--
Unif(1,2)+Unif(1,2)
Oh let's prove central limit theorem
17:04
Wow, a @Balarka sure has changed.
@BalarkaSen lol
@TedShifrin To be perfectly clear on this my favorite proof of the strong law of large numbers is by the Birkhoff ergodic theorem
:3
the Irwin-Hall distribution is a cool illustration of the CLT
I probably once knew that theorem, a @Balarka, but no longer.
It's how I initially guessed that something like this must be the statement of CLT before my course mentioned them
Given an ergodic transformation, the average of a measurable function over an orbit of the transformation is the average of the function on the full space
Popularly known as time-average = space-average
Really just a pumped up law of large numbers
Probability is just an absolutely beautiful branch of math. I wish I knew more
17:11
Ah, that's intuitively the meaning of ergodicity anyhow. So in the CLT setting, what's the ergodic transformation?
oops. SLLN, I mean.
It's the shift operator on R^N, with the Kolmogorov measure (compatible with the Lebesgue measures of R^n)
I am being sloppy
Here's what it is
Suppose $X_1, X_2, \cdots$ are an iid sequence of random variables with finite mean
Then jointly they define a function $(X_1, X_2, \cdots) : \Omega \to \Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$
Yes, I imagined it thusly.
Push the probability measure $\Bbb P$ on $\Omega$ forward to $\Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$ by this map. By i.i.d-ness, the induced measure on $\Bbb R^N$ is $\Bbb P^{\Bbb N}$, where this means countable product of the measures (this can be done and what requires Kolmogorov's result. Essentially the measure of the open sets in the product topology are the product of the measures of the intervals appearing in the product)
Then define $f : \Bbb R^{\Bbb N} \to \Bbb R$ to be first projection. This is your measurable function
If $T : \Bbb R^{\Bbb N} \to \Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$ is left-shift, this is ergodic with respect to $\Bbb P^{\Bbb N}$
Space average of $f$ is of course $\Bbb E X_1$, and time average is $\lim_n (X_1 + \cdots + X_n)/n$
Because $f(T^n(x))$ is the $n$-th projection, which has the distribution of $X_n$
(In light of previous pedagogy: This is another reason "distribution" is such an important word and should not mean the random variable in general. Two random variables from two distinct measure spaces can have the "same distribution". Their induced measures are the same on the real line!)
@TedShifrin I have long wondered if there's a second order analogue of ergodic theorems, because CLT feels like one
There are all kinds of CLTs for stuff which doesn't have finite variance as well, but have polynomial tails like the Pareto distribution
Instead of $n^{-1/2}$ you have to scale by $n^{-\alpha}$
The limiting distributions are called "symmetric $\alpha$-stable distributions", which feels like these basins in the space of distributions which attract other distributions toward it under scaled limits
I dunno if this is a thing/can be made precise
17:29
Balarka, I really never studied this stuff. I did do dynamical systems in grad school, but never took a course in ergodic theory. Sounds like you're really interested :)
I'm not sure what the result by Kolmogorov says exactly, but doesn't Carathéodory suffice?
@Thorgott Yeah just knowing the measures on the open sets of the product topology suffices here, which is $\mu([a_1, b_1] \times \cdots \times [a_n, b_n] \times \Bbb R \times \Bbb R \times \cdots) = \prod_{i = 1}^n (b_i - a_i)$
In general though you can still define countable product of $\sigma$-finite measure spaces, in some level of generality
those sets look closed to me, but yes
I think you can even do uncountable products
at the very least for probability spaces
Ya I meant open intervals there
@Thorgott Yeah probability spaces is fine, but you can do it beyond those
I think nowhere continous functions are ungraphable
like the dirichlet function
17:40
@Secret: Just we can't draw a picture doesn't mean that their graph makes no sense. They are graphable; we just can't draw the picture.
For example $\Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$ has a measure which is compatible with the Lebesgue measures on $\Bbb R^n$ for all $n \geq 1$
This is known as Kolmogorov extension theorem
Is that different from extending the above it via Carathéodory?
How would you extend it?
I see, still I am wonder if there are really functions that its graph is not a subset of $X \times Y$ and hence making them ungraphable.
something uncomputable seemed to be a good candidate
If you have a function from $X$ to $Y$, then by definition its graph is a subset of $X\times Y$ (with additional properties, of course).
17:43
ah ok, so it is already ok at the definition level
Whether the function is computable or not is irrelevant. If you know it is a function, then it is a function.
@Thorgott Sorry, I'm getting distracted by other things. (1) The Lebesgue measure on $[0, 1]^{\Bbb N}$ can be defined by setting $\mu(\prod (a_i, b_i) \times \prod [0, 1]) = \prod (b_i - a_i)$. This is strictly beasure $\mu([0, 1]) = 1$. (2) It's not clear how to do this for $\Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$, because the Lebesgue measure is not even a finite measure let alone a probability measure on $\Bbb R$.
So I don't know what the "Caratheodory trick" for $\Bbb R^{\Bbb N}$ is. Nonetheless, there is such a measure, which is papa K's theorem
I hope that clears it up
which K is that?
Gotta go now, see ya
@Semiclassical Kolmogorov :P
of course it is
17:46
Bye, a @Balarka.
as compared with uncle K, who would be Khinchin
Hah well said
Alright now I'm gone
17:59
@BalarkaSen There's also some more general versions of the extension theorem. I forgot how they work though, some stuff about projective systems of measure spaces
In this post why does it suffice to show that the polynomial has exactly one root in the first quadrant? math.stackexchange.com/questions/3027908/…
What part of their justification do you not understand, @user736948?
"It suffices to show that there is exactly one root in the first quadrant because it is a polynomial with real coefficients, and zeros of polynomials come in conjugate pairs."
So non-real roots are complex numbers and their conjugates.
Oh I get it... being stupid.
18:06
OK :)
The polynomial has exactly four roots, if it has exactly one root in the 1st quadrant then it has exactly one root in the 4th quadrant. So 2 roots must be in quadrants 2 and 43 , but as roots come in conjugate pairs, we must have exactly one root in each...
There you go.
cheers
:)
Hi, DogAteMy.
18:14
Happy Chanukah.
Happy Boxing(?) Day
18:36
Solve the following initial boundary value problem using the parallelogram identity
utt − ux x = 0 0 < x < ∞, 0 < t < 2x,
u(x, 0) = f (x) 0 ≤ x < ∞,
ut(x, 0) = g(x) 0 ≤ x < ∞,
u(x, 2x) = h(x) x ≥ 0,
Can someone please help me with this question? I tried to draw it out and it's not working for me.
I thought it can be proven with D'Alambert only
18:56
0
Q: Verifying tetration properties

Simply Beautiful ArtIn my previous question I asked about the numerical instability and convergence of my tetration. It would seem to be the case that it converges, but suffers from catastrophic cancellation. The definition of my tetration is provided as: $${}^xa=\lim_{n\to\infty}\log_a^{\circ n}({}^\infty a-({}^\i...

o.o don't mind me advertising, but it seems my question hasn't had much attention, though it could just be the holidays
19:08
@Eran what’s the parallelogram identity?
$2\lVert x\rVert^2+2\lVert y\rVert^2=\lVert x+y\rVert^2+\lVert x-y\rVert^2$?
that’s the usual one, yes, but I don’t know what it means in the context of PDEs
Might be equivalent of course
Context:
40 mins ago, by Eran
Solve the following initial boundary value problem using the parallelogram identity
utt − ux x = 0 0 < x < ∞, 0 < t < 2x,
u(x, 0) = f (x) 0 ≤ x < ∞,
ut(x, 0) = g(x) 0 ≤ x < ∞,
u(x, 2x) = h(x) x ≥ 0,
@Semiclassic: The connection didn't leap to my mind, either.
@Semiclassical : users.math.msu.edu/users/yan/847ch4.pdf, Lemma 5.1 on page 3
This has nothing to do with the vector identity you wrote down, @Eran.
It's just about the geometry of the PDE (note reference to slope $\pm 1$).
19:24
What do you mean? It sure does. We use the parallelogram identity and D'Alembert to find the solution u for the wave equation.
It's just an example of slope +-1 but it can be any constant that is equal on both sides.
I don't agree with you. Where is the vector identity used in their presentation?
I didn't write the question "Solve using the parallelogram identity". It is in intro to pde book
They're referring to that lemma as the parallelogram identity. It has nothing to do with the vector identity.
x-ct=const, x+ct=const
You just don't get it. Never mind.
19:26
What vector identity ?
Oh, Thorgott pasted that in.
The book is using unusual terminology, because that term is used for a totally different thing that we all thought of.
Yes, that's why I added an explanation when @Semiclassical asked...
OK, sorry. Thorgott muddled everything.
Parallelogram property, not parallelogram identity, to match the book’s terminology
Don't know why he did that, probably tried to help but it confused us all.
19:29
Ah, yes, the book says PROPERTY, and you typed IDENTITY.
That also confused us.
But OK, enough.
Is it a problem from the prof or from the book?
The question I read from (different book) wrote identity.
ahhh
But, it’s the same theorem?
From the book An Introduction to Partial Differential Equations - Y. Pinchover, J. Rubenstein
yes yes, the same.
Kk.
I don’t immediately see how to use it, in any case
19:32
Thanks. When I learned about this property it was for the purpose of finding the solution u where we can't use D'Alembert. But I think here I can use it everywhere.
use it= using D'Alembert
Isn't it a rectangle with sides parallel to the axes?
Ah, so no slopes $\pm 1$. Bingo.
Why sides parallel to the axes?
lol, I'm sorry
Oh, I see. Their example shows how they're applying it. This is just the method of characteristics in disguise, I guess.
I tried to create triangles for using D'Alembert and thought that we can reach all (x,t) s.t 0<t<2x in this way.
19:37
No, you have to use rectangles with sides with slopes $\pm 1$ to apply that. But you can get anywhere you need to that way.
The characteristics have slope pm 1 here, while the t<2x boundary has slope 2
So this is the reason I can't use D'Alembert?
You can still put one of the vertices of the parallelogram on that line.
You just can't put a side of the parallelogram on that line. :)
Try drawing it in accordance with what we’re saying
I'm actually not really understanding what you're saying, sorry. Can you please explain more?
19:39
We’re saying your picture is wrong, to start with
Ok. Why? h(x) is right, right?
The black lines should have slope +-1 , but the red line should have slope 2
Ok. So the red line is okay, but why should they have slope +- 1?
because your pde is u_xx=u_tt
Not u_xx=4u_tt or something else
Right!
So something like this (sorry for my bad drawing lol)
19:44
Get rid of that dark parallelogram.
All your lines must have slope $\pm 1$. I.e., you need tilted rectangles.
Ok just a sec
Anonymous
Hi. Any idea if a self-adjoint operator, in general, can be fully-reconstructed from its spectrum, in the infinite-dimensional case? I suppose the answer is no, unless the operator can be diagonalized in some orthogonal basis. But I'm not sure.
@SanchayanDutta: Look up the spectral theorem. It's a thing in Hilbert space, too.
Anonymous
@TedShifrin Thanks. I'm reading the page on Spectral theorem from Wikipedia. It appears that for compact self-adjoint operators, an orthogonal basis exists, but it's not immediately clear to me whether the same holds for bounded or unbounded self-adjoint operators in general...
19:56
Okay I think it goes like this: I can use D'Alembert for all the triangles (all area under x=x). And I need to use the property of parallelogram for all area above that and under x=2x. Am I right?
Anonymous
I see this though: $$A = \int_{\sigma(A)} \lambda dE_{\lambda}$$
@Eran yeah, that seems right
Putting that together seems to give a reasonably simple formula in the region x<t<2x
@Semiclassical @TedShifrin Thanks very much :)
@Semiclassical I'll try it now. Thank you!!
Anonymous
20:33
@TedShifrin Nevermind, Hall's textbook apparently covers this topic in detail. Now my confusion is along the lines of - the unique projection valued measures required to reconstruct the self-adjoint operators from requires knowledge of the nature of the self-adjoint operator and not just its spectrum. So it seems it's not correct to say that self-adjoint operators can be reconstructed from only their spectrum
Anonymous
Or perhaps not, because maybe we could somehow run through all possible projection valued measures and find one set that reconstructs a particular self-adjoint operator
Anonymous
But then perhaps multiple self-adjoint operators could be constructed from a given spectrum. The mapping doesn't seem one-one
Anonymous
Then again it could be that those multiple self-adjoint operators are necessarily unitarily equivalent
Anonymous
I'll have to read this properly. The book seems huge :)
I'm afraid I'm not a good help on this stuff. Come back to me with differential geometry :)
Anonymous
20:43
Heh. Thanks, nonetheless! :D
21:12
0
Q: Formula for $M_{p^k} = \{ x \in \Bbb{Z} : x^2 = 1 \pmod {p^k}\}$?

Shine On You Crazy DiamondLet $M_n = \{ x \in \Bbb{Z}: x^2 = 1 \pmod n\}$. It is a multiplicative submonoid of $\Bbb{Z}$. When $\gcd(a,b) = 1$ then we have: $$ x^2 = 1\pmod {a,b} \iff \\ x^2 = 1\pmod {ab} $$ by the Chinese remainder theorem, which means $M_{ab} = M_a \cap M_b$. My question is, do we have a formula fo...

21:40
@Semiclassical what would be your formula for this?
 
2 hours later…
23:49
@LeakyNun I know this is 4 days late but the answer to [this](chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/53009045#53009045 ) is Rc6+ followed by ... Rxh7
@MaximilianJanisch nice
Really cool puzzle
@LeakyNun Are you Chessnoobz on lichess?
wait i'll follow you there :D

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