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00:18
Wow, @apnorton has returned!
Hey @TedShifrin!
I like to pop in every now and then to see how things are doing
And good grief meta (global, not Math at least yet, fortunately) seems to be quite a mess today
I eschew meta ... What's going on?
I do find that as there are more and more crappy "do my homework" questions and questions where the OP makes no effort to write anything that makes sense, I'm losing patience almost entirely.
Something like ~20 mods have resigned across the network in the last 24 hours :\
Wow. Any particular reason?
That's a lot of mods to replace.
00:22
Maybe the NRA wants to take over SE.
One mod was removed by SE staff for what appears to be a potential to violate a future (but not current) code of conduct, and a lot of other mods didn't take kindly to that
But yeah, I think eschewing meta is a good idea; I had forgotten how insane the politics gets
In fun news, I finally took the GRE and am starting to work on grad school apps!
Still trying to narrow down a list of schools, but I think I want to do research in some subfield of cryptography
@apnorton congrats!
Well, that's cool :P
Your grad school plans, I mean, not quitting mods.
00:25
haha of course
I don't even like being a room owner. You couldn't pay me to be a mod.
Yeah, that's a set of responsibility that I don't think I'd want anymore.
I will repost this one because I am still struggling with measure theory. :(

In the comments of math.stackexchange.com/… Daniel basically instructs the OP to show that any measurable null set $E$ is sandwiched by two other sets $A\subseteq E\subseteq B$ such that $\mu(B\setminus A) = 0$. Thus $\mu(A)\in\mathcal M^*$. I don't see how this necessitates that all subsets of $E$ are in $\mathcal M^*$.
I don't deal with measure theory.
I apparently don't deal with it either. :P
00:28
And I never got to it in my classes :(
Do any analysts attend the chat at all?
I mean, I passed my analysis qual just fine, but that was 1974.
I miss the days Daniel Fischer was in here. He is supreme at analysis.
I wouldn't pass an analysis qual probably
Is he gone entirely, or did he just stop attending chat?
We have grad students like @Eric and @Ryan who are supposed to know a lot of analysis. And Demonark @Daminark claims to know a fair amount.
I think he's still a mod.
00:30
I was going to leave a comment on the question but Daniel hasn't been seen in a few months so I doubt I'd get an answer.
idk anything
I'm getting senile enough that I post occasional garbage on main, and that's embarrassing enough.
smacks Eric
It's really comforting to come back after a long period of time and see at least a few familiar faces... but also sad to see the missing ones :(
what is the measure theory question
basic measure theory isnt analysis tho
Yeah, I miss anon and Pedro and Daniel and a some others ...
LOL, well, it isn't geometry or algebra, @Eric.
00:31
correct
@ÉricoMeloSilva not even basic measure theory?
And I keep saying that basics on diff manifolds isn't diff geo, either :P
Oh you said it wasn't analysis.
It does have that basic algebra of sets feel to it.
Yeah, it's more soft analysis than hard analysis.
what it is is tedious
00:33
Yes, I concur. I liked integration theory, distribution theory, etc., but hated measure theory.
Irregardless, you should know it, @Eric.
we did Daniel intregrals in Freshman analysis which was pretty cool since you get to avoid all the measure theory
[Before anyone corrects me, I know that's horrid. I do it on porpoise.]
Yeah, it is cool, @Mathein, but we all should have known (at some point) some measure theory.
@TedShifrin I did learn measure theory after that
OK, then you should help poor anakhro.
@TedShifrin i do in fact do measure theory all the time
00:34
I don't claim to know it
i asked what the question is
Haar measures are pretty important for NT
so there's that
but I don't want to work through the proof of existence and uniqueness of Haar measures
@ÉricoMeloSilva In the comments of math.stackexchange.com/… Daniel basically instructs the OP to show that any measurable null set $E$ is sandwiched by two other sets $A\subseteq E\subseteq B$ such that $\mu(B\setminus A) = 0$. Thus $\mu(A)\in\mathcal M^*$. I don't see how this necessitates that all subsets of $E$ are in $\mathcal M^*$.
whoops it never copied the link
Let me find it
5
Q: Check my proof -- The completion of a $\sigma$-finite measure

EmilyThis is a homework problem and I need some guidance on a proof. Let $(X,\mathcal{M},\mu)$ be a measure space, $\mu^*$ the outer measure induced by $\mu$ according to (1.12), $\mathcal{M}^*$ the $\sigma$-algebra of $\mu^*$-measurable sets, and $\overline{\mu}=\mu^*\mid_{\mathcal{M}^*}$. (...

It's just how to extend this result to all subsets of the null set E.
Isn't any subset of a null set measurable and null?
if you have a complete measure, then yes
00:39
Only in the completion
My chat is not scrolling down.
Hmm ...
>: (
Exit and re-enter, @anakhro.
Let's see how that does, thanks Ted.
Don't thank me yet :P
00:41
So far so good.
Measure theory is for need d
profound
losted
00:57
@TedShifrin two questions: (1) do/did you know of any Deaf mathematicians, and (2) do you know why Thurston spoke in ASL with his family in his later days (was it due to what caused his death?).
I don't know the details of Thurston's demise. I have had deaf students, but I don't think I know any deaf mathematicians. The famous mathematician who figured out how to invert the sphere was blind !!
Was that Pontrjagin?
Giroux (a famous contact/symplectic topologist) is also blind.
I wonder why Deaf people don't become mathematicians as much as other minorities like blind people.
@TedShifrin your students who have been deaf, do they use an interpreter in class? And has it been for any of your pure math courses?
I've seen Giroux's lectures on video. Are you sure he's blind? I don't believe that. No, the guy who figured out how to invert the sphere was Morin (French). Yes, deaf students had (university-provided) interpreters. No big deal.
01:13
Hi. Is it appropriate to ask what algorithm the ti-84 uses on mathstackexchange to calculate, say the row reduced echelon form of the matrix [1 , 1 , 1 , 2; 4 , 2 , 1 , 5 ; 9 , 3 , 1 , 10]. I was curious because the second row, last column is something super ridiculously close to 0 that should actually be 0. I'm just curious why it is super close and why the calculator doesn't show 0 there instead. I know it is a calculator and can mostly be trusted about alot of calculations.
@TedShifrin Yes, Emmanuel Giroux is blind.
Oh, that's a different symplectic topologist.
@TedShifrin who were you thinking of?
Oh, I'm a dope. See, I'm getting senile. I'm thinking of Denis Auroux.
01:19
Yeah, Giroux is this guy (warning, horrible sound quality): youtube.com/watch?v=NlQdMMq1Nfs
@randomgirl: I am not expert on how calculators work, but obviously there was round-off error.
I would need to work out that specific matrix to have a more precise guess.
@anakhro: In truth, I now realize i've never even heard of Giroux, but know well of Auroux.
@TedShifrin will you use determinants, eigenvalues, matrix power etc., or will you go for basic matrix operations? :P
Should be [ 1 , 0 , 0 , 1 ; 0, 1 , 0 , 0 ; 0, 0 , 1 , 1] since 1^2+1=2 and 2^2+1=5 and 3^2+1=10 . Also thanks for responding.
Your last row is wrong.
Yep forgot to put some 1's (or 1's in the right place).
01:25
@anakhro sorry i left, i mean according to the lemma this implies $A$ is approximated from the outside and this implies $A \subset \mathcal{M}^{\ast}$
what are you asking
Yeah, I've done the calculation by hand, @randomgirl. I don't understand what it did. The "intelligent" way to do Gauss-Jordan would not have any roundoff error at all, because everything is multiples of $.5$. I'm guessing the calculator divided by $9$ in the last row rather than subtracting $9$ times the first row, etc. This would introduce roundoff error.
@ÉricoMeloSilva I want to show that each subset of $E$ (the measurable null set) is also measurable.
Of course I get this $A$ is measurable (in $\mathcal M^*$), but it's not an arbitrary $A\subseteq E$.
But you guys told me you need to pass to the completion of the measure for that to be so.
Thanks Ted. The calculator was super super close. I understand to expect that sometimes. It is interesting though what the algorithm is when something like this does happen.
every subset of E approximates it from within
01:33
@ÉricoMeloSilva but not every one has the property $\mu(B\setminus A) = 0$.
Yes, @randomgirl, what you told me surprised me, as it goes against everything I've ever taught in 30+ years of teaching linear algebra.
Daniel's hint only gives $\exists$.
Mind you, I could be misunderstanding the hint. But to me it looks like he is saying that given $B$ you can find an $A$ such that [...], moreover $A$ is measurable.
And grand, that works for that particular $A$, but I don't see how it solves the question.
im confused what's being shown, that subsets of $\mu$-null sets are $\mu^{*}$ measurable?
Yes.
i.e. that it is complete.
why all this fuss exactly then, that's like a two line argument
01:43
What's that two line argument?
$\mu(F) \geq \mu^{\ast}(F \backslash A) \geq \mu^{\ast}(F \backslash E) = \mu(F)$ because $\mathcal{M} \subset \mathcal{M}^{\ast}$ trivially
i meant to put stars on the $\mu(F)$s
F arbitrary
@anakhro $\mu^{}(B\A) \leq \mu^{}(B\E) + \mu^{}(E\A) = 0$ so it does though, i also don't know if writing $\mu(B\A)$ was a typo but it seems like one to me bc we're proving $\mu^{}$ measurability, not $\mu$-measurability, which isn't true a priori anyway
I don't follow.
$F\subseteq E$?
idk why that message is broken
no F is an arbitrary set, im showing $\mu^{\ast}$ measurability
$\mu^{\ast}(F) = \mu^{\ast}(A \cap F) + \mu^{\ast}(F \backslash A)$
the first thing dies so i didnt write it
I want $F\subseteq E$ to be $\mu^*$-measurable.
$A \subset E$
the inequality i wrote shows $A$ is measurable
01:52
$\mu^*(B\setminus A) \leq \mu^*(B\setminus E) + \mu^*(E\setminus A) = 0$
That one?
no but that also shows it
What is $A$?
Any subset of $E$?
$A$ is just a subset of $E$
yes
again though that $\mu^{\ast}$ is the completion of $\mu$ is like obvious without this lemma about sandwiching
I don't follow at all.
Why is $\mu^*(E\setminus A) = 0$?
the definition of the outer measure
$E$ covers $E \backslash A$ so that thing is already 0
01:57
I have a feeling something is going awry here.
Because I trust Daniel is not going to send everyone for a loop needlessly.
And I don't think this question is a 1-liner.
he gives him a correct argument assuming the lemma
@TedShifrin Pocket typing
ignoring category theory stuff, do functions typically require some kind of set theory in order to use?
Functions defined as what?
@user709833 I don't really understand the question
02:01
What do you define a function as?
@ÉricoMeloSilva how does his argument prove $\forall A\subseteq E$
this is true by what i said, this inner regularity thing is strictly stronger than you need to reach the conclusion of the question but is a response to something OP tried to argue in the comments clearly
im like pretty positive there is no subtlety
like what *are functions exactly
like set behavior is defined with all this axiom stuff but what about functions
@user709833 what is your definition of a "function".
@ÉricoMeloSilva I will have a look over it. I still don't understand how Daniel's suggestion leads to a solution without going back to yours.
Thanks for the response, though!
I appreciate it. Even if I am too garbled to understand what is going on now.
what is what i am asking
is there some formal definition in set theory?
There certainly is a set theoretic definition.
02:16
@anakhro I read "and you can easily see that..." in Daniel's comment as an aside, it's stronger and not strictly needed bc the one-linear i gave works
I think its propagation is due mainly to Bourbaki, but you define relations as subsets of product sets AxB. A function is a relation satisfying certain properties (most notably, single valued and "total").
OP then tries to argue using this fact and Daniel says it needs a proof (which it does) and says how you do it
the end result is OPs argument is like true but it's convoluted and misses the point
If it is stronger, how does it imply the result?
It seems weaker to me since $A$ depends on $B$.
bc in the case of null sets it doesn't by what i said so you apply the lemma
my point is you do in fact end up circumventing this fact no matter what you do
Your point is that the stronger fact is in fact useless
In any case I have to go to bed. Goodnight! And thanks again.
02:27
yeah sure so it is
 
2 hours later…
04:00
Hello
3
A: Prove that $44^n-1$ is divisible by $7$ for some $n$

DBFdalwayseTry with 44=42+2; then: $(42+2)^n=42^n+ 42(....)+2^n= 2^n(mod7)$ Then you just need to find the least n with $2^n=1(mod7)$ , i.e., you just need to find an n so that $7|k(2^n -1)$ . Note that $2^1-1=1, 2^2-1=3,...$ and notice the remainders of $2^n-1$ when you divide by 7

I'm curious, how can I approach this problem via Pigeon Hole principle? Is it even possible?
 
2 hours later…
05:33
@ÉricoMeloSilva did you solve it
You should have come with me
I needed someone to help defend our honor
I walked into the lion’s den
 
3 hours later…
08:26
Is there a name for recurrence relations that become independent of their initial terms at the limit of infinitely many terms?
 
2 hours later…
10:51
Mathematics is the study of regularity, even if it looks random
Non mathematics are those which cannot be modelled
11:51
@RyanUnger did they insult us
12:13
@user709833 Yes, a set $f$ is called a function if all of its elements are ordered pairs and if $(a,b)$ and $(a,c)$ are both in $f$ then $b=c$. The interpretation here is that $f(a)=b$
@ÉricoMeloSilva no
They did say geometric analysis is obscure
It was mostly joking
c’est la vie
12:59
@ÉricoMeloSilva I guess I have no objections against your method.
I am just surprised it was so simple.
Thanks!
13:33
@AlessandroCodenotti My question though is that if we are using functions does it mean that we must also be using a set theory underlying it first / have one defined?
Say that I know that sp(4,C) is a semisimple Lie algebra. To deduce that it is a simple Lie algebra I can consider its root system. If the root system is irreducible, then it is a simple Lie algebra.

To prove that the root system is irreducible, I have to show that I cannot find two orthogonal subsets of the roots, which I indeed cannot do just looking at the root system drawn with the correct angles. However, say that I do not know what the root system looks like when drawn in R^2. Do I have to 1) Compute all of the roots, 2) Take each of the Cartan generators to their dual, with respect
Or is there a less cumbersome way?
@user709833 You don't have to, there are foundational systems in which functions are primitive notions, but the most common choice is to start with set theory and build everything from there
14:19
@ÉricoMeloSilva does your switch struggle with this game
mine keeps dropping the res
hmm
@RyanUnger yeah i noticed it when i plugged into my monitor and i’m a doomer now
yeah it's a real bummer
@Alessandro @Mathein wahooo I'm in
the game still owns at least
just make ur eyes slower and the frame rates match ur good
14:27
@Ryan I just arrived in Germany and moved into my flat
:)
coolio
just 2 weeks until I start getting absolutely wrecked by Heidelberg's master program
@AlessandroCodenotti that's basically what I am trying to get at
sort of the bird's eye view of how everything is built
like you start with propositional logic, and from there build FOL
and then from there you use FOL to build set theory and other first-order theories like PA?
and from the set theory build functions?
is this correct?
@ÍgjøgnumMeg do they have crazy exams
@Ryan as soon as i have access i'll see if I can find some past papers lol
14:44
what math do u do @ÍgjøgnumMeg
Algebraic number theory
lol
@Ryan since im so perpetually unproductive im gonna promise publicly to figure out this limit interface shit this week
hold me to it
@ÍgjøgnumMeg im actually horrified
@ÉricoMeloSilva do it in the first year seminar
14:46
i don't think they know what mean curvature is tho
that's ok ill just draw the chemistry pictures Fernando drew in class
they'll get it
make sure to draw each molecule
caffarelli has a paper called non-local minimal surfaces
im shook
yeah I wasn't kidding about that
i knew it could be made sense of and that his peeps would be the ones to do it
but tbh im mad
14:49
there's also nonlocal mcf
apparently u can get it as a continuous limit of some cellular automata shit
Gromov appears
 
1 hour later…
15:55
How is, in the proof of the linked theorem, equation (2) justified? Why are values of $t$ near 0 also equal to $f(a,b)$? mathonline.wikidot.com/…
16:40
I think all it's saying is that $f(x(t),y(t))|_{t=0}=f(x(0),y(0))=f(a,b)$
to say that it's true for values "near t=0" seems nonsense, except as the crudest approximation
16:59
@schn: That thing is horribly written and confuses basic ideas. I would avoid that website in the future. (Just with a cursory glance I notice two things wrong.)
It's supposed to be a local parametrization of the level curve (not of $f$ itself — garbage), which, by the implicit function theorem, a priori exists only locally.
17:39
So, I have a discrete probability distribution depenedent on $m$. So $n\in\{0,1,\ldots,m\}$ and appears to have marginal mass distribution of $p_N(n)=\frac{m}{15}$, where $m\in\{1,2,3,4,5\}$. However, this confuses me, because when $m=5$ we get that the probability of the six possible values are each $\frac{1}{3}$, and so the total probability appears to be 2.
Am I misinterpreting something? Is this mass function possible? Or am I correct in thinking it is impossible?
17:52
@TedShifrin@Semiclassical Alright, thanks!
@Rithaniel That description doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you have the original problem?
Sure, give me a moment and I'll post it
Anyone have any idea how I can approach this problem using the Pigeonhole Principle?
3
A: Prove that $44^n-1$ is divisible by $7$ for some $n$

DBFdalwayseTry with 44=42+2; then: $(42+2)^n=42^n+ 42(....)+2^n= 2^n(mod7)$ Then you just need to find the least n with $2^n=1(mod7)$ , i.e., you just need to find an n so that $7|k(2^n -1)$ . Note that $2^1-1=1, 2^2-1=3,...$ and notice the remainders of $2^n-1$ when you divide by 7

@ÍgjøgnumMeg nah, you'll be fine
ANT 1 is going to be easy for you, given what you know
@Semiclassical The random vector $(X,Y)$ has the following joint distribution
$$P(X=m,Y=n)=\binom{m}{n}\frac{1}{2^m}\frac{m}{15}$$
where $m=1,2,\ldots,5$ and $n=0,1,\ldots,m$. Derive the conditional pmf of $Y$
The approach was to sum over $n$ and then pull the $\frac{m}{15}$ out front, to notice that this is then $\frac{m}{15}$ multiplied by the sum of the probabilities of a binomial distribution or it's entire domain (which is equal to 1).
18:10
hrm. well, those probabilities do sum to 1
I'm horrified of intro probability
since $\sum_{0\leq n\leq m \leq 5} P(X=m,Y=n)=1$
I can't get my undergrad without passing that course
So, is there an error in the calculation of the marginal distribution? Or is my error in the interpretation of the probabilities?
Looking at what I just wrote, one should also be able to write that as $n=0,1,\ldots,5$ and $m=n,n+1,\ldots, 5$
18:13
Also, Mathein, it's not too difficult. It's kind of like algebra and calculus combined, and you deal a lot with the interval $[0,1]$
in which case I'd expect $$P(Y=n) = \sum_{m=n}^5 P(X=m,Y=n)=\sum_{m=n}^5 \binom{m}{n} \frac{1}{2^m}\frac{m}{15}$$
Oh right, we're summing over X, not over Y.
So, what I found was the marginal mass function of X, or it would have been, but I can't do what I did because I can't remove the $\frac{m}{15}$
which, just based on the sums I get, seems to satisfy $\sum_{n=0}^5 P(Y=n)=1$
well, what you get was $$P(X=m)=\sum_{n=0}^m P(X=m,Y=n) = \sum_{n=0}^m \binom{m}{n} \frac{1}{2^m}\frac{m}{15} = \frac{m}{15}$$
yeah, I fixed that
So now you'd have $P(X=m) = 1/15,2/15,3/15,4/15,5/15$ for $m=1,2,3,4,5$
which sums to 1 properly
The main issue is that the sum for $P(X=m)$ is easier than for $P(Y=n)$
Ah, gotcha, it makes sense now.
Sup Meg
18:20
yo @Rithaniel
@Rithaniel if it's like algebra I'm fine
Oh no not algebra
Algebra is awesome
@Rithaniel Of course, you can just take the lazy way out: Pick $n=1$ and compute the sum
Even easier: There are 15 outcomes possible. Write them out in a triangular array and add either rows or columns
One gives you the X pmf, the other the Y pmf
of course, that wouldn't help you if $5$ were replaced by an arbitrary $m_{max}$
@Mathein modular forms is gonna be SUPER hard lol
18:26
someone told me that intro prob is harder than algbraic geometry because you ahve to do computation with actual numbers
@ÍgjøgnumMeg I can help you if you've got questions
also no, it's not that hard
:) probably will.. hahaha
sorry algebra is canceled
19:30
It’s nonlocal PDE time 😎
surprise pikachu react
it's math sat time
i love when a math talk makes me understand a subject less
"negative learning"
19:42
@ÉricoMeloSilva i dont love that at all
‘twas joke
"Two, four, six, eight, [speakers] crime was very great! Great meaning large or immense, we use it in the pejorative sense!"
@ÉricoMeloSilva dude what even is the maximum principle
20:08
The principle which is, itself, maximum in some way.
(Disclaimer: dumb word-play joke, I don't actually know what the maximum principle is)
hello, please to be sure can I say this $[-1, 4].[0,3] =[0,12]$
it is not the cartesian product just $AB=\{a.b, a\in A, b\in B\}$
someone help me
note that -1 is in [-1,4] and 1 is in [0,3]
so (-1)(1)=-1 is in that product by your definition
so it is false
we just let it like this?
[-1,4].[0,3]
or there is an other way ?
@Semiclassical
 
2 hours later…
22:20
I have another math joke that I will share with you under the risk of banation
Anyone answer
What's 13 squared?
I'll let you guys think on that one, and on the inevitable punchline
Ping me if you have the answer with @
23:17
@Semiclassical I found a problem that I wanted to try and solve in a different way but am confused on how to approach it
3
A: Prove that $44^n-1$ is divisible by $7$ for some $n$

DBFdalwayseTry with 44=42+2; then: $(42+2)^n=42^n+ 42(....)+2^n= 2^n(mod7)$ Then you just need to find the least n with $2^n=1(mod7)$ , i.e., you just need to find an n so that $7|k(2^n -1)$ . Note that $2^1-1=1, 2^2-1=3,...$ and notice the remainders of $2^n-1$ when you divide by 7

Trying to use Pigeonhole Principle to prove this
Equivalently: you want to show that 44^n=1 mod 7 for some n
I’m not convinced pigeonhole is going to help much here

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