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00:11
Hi @Mathein
Wie geht's?
Gut, danke. Ich mache gute Fortschritte mit meiner Bachelorarbeit
Und selbst?
Nichts besonderes.
Made a good dinner last night, though ... all new things
these stuff about quadratic integer rings is so damn intresting
is there a reason why they use Z[] and Q() ?@MatheinBoulomenos
00:18
@Jacksoja what are you reading right now?
am reading this example on DF
the parentheses indicate it will be a field.
I see thanks !
@Jacksoja yes, actually for example Q(a) and Q[a] are both defined, Q(a) is the smallest field containing X and Q[a] is the smallest ring containing a
Although I used $\Bbb Q[\alpha]$ in my book ... polynomials in $\alpha$ ... and proved that it is a field iff $\alpha$ is algebraic.
00:22
@MatheinBoulomenos I purshased the second book btw by fazer i think
It should arrive this week ^^
But am planning to read it after I finish DF
@Jacksoja: You should notice (if you check carefully) that D&F define $R[a]$ to mean the ring of all polynomial expressions in $a$ with coefficients in $R$, and $R(a)$ to mean all rational expressions ...
finish D&F ? That should be years.
provided that your ambient ring is a field
I see not bad convention
the example they worked out is Z[w] where it is defined in two parts
@Jacksoja it's explicitly an undergrad book on algebraic number theory (the only one I know) and it's really accessible, I'd say it's an easier read than D&F
sqrt(D) if D is congruent to 2,3 mod 4
00:25
@Jacksoja you will see that this case distinction is not necessary once you learn about integral elements
@MatheinBoulomenos I really hope that is the case !
but in DF there were no motivation / preparation for this example
it just came out of nowhere
oh well they did mention solutions of pells equation
x^2 - Dy^2 = +-1
yes, solutions of pells equation correspond to units in a quadratic integer ring
cool stuff indeed , If I can get better at this stuff, I might write my thesis on something like this
that's a good idea
am supposed to do something like this as undergrad but could not yet find good topic haha
what did you write about mathein ?
00:32
I'm still in the process of writing my undergrad thesis
I'm writing about Galois representations associated to modular forms
wow really ?
If you did not mention that you were student in chat
i would have assumed that you are a professor lol
00:33
I still have a long way to go
He's a young professor.
don't say that !
what makes us then ?
I know I'm antique. You can fend for yourself.
@TedShifrin What does that mean?
What does what mean?
00:35
Why are you antique?
65+ is antique.
age is just a number !
@MatheinBoulomenos can you send me a pdf when you are done with your thesis?
I am learning uniform convergence. I do not know how to find the $M_n$ function for this sequence $f_n(x) = \frac{x^2}{n^2}$ as the problem says that $x$ is over the whole real line. Any ideas? I know this is not supposed to be uniform convergent, but I need to proof it using the M test.
I dont know anything about what you write about but, sure will be motivation to understand it :) @MatheinBoulomenos
@RobertH: The M test proves uniform convergence, not the lack of it.
And it is for series, not sequences. So let's clarify your question.
00:38
Do you know how to get acess to lectures from havard ? @TedShifrin
No, @Jacksoja. Unless you find them just by googling.
@Jacksoja I can do that, but I'm not sure if you will get much out of it. I'm assuming familiarity with complex analysis, algebraic number theory, algebraic geometry, category theory and homological algebra, among other things
@TedShifrin Yes, you are right., But I wanted to at least try to find the $M_n$. It is for sequence of functions. THat what the book says. "Which of the following sequences of functions converge pointwise to the zero function for all x in R". Then it gives -x^2/n^2.
LOL, I doubt I can read @Mathein's thesis.
@MatheinBoulomenos Okay I will read it then in 2 years! :) am stil undergrad but those topics are beyond masters where am from lol
00:40
So you understand, what are the $M_n$ anyhow? And what are they for your sequence of functions? [Hint: The answer is $\infty$.]
I'm pretty sure you could, but I'm not sure if you're interested in the topic @Ted
Of the topics you listed you assume familiarity with, I know complex analysis, algebraic geometry, and some homological algebra. Not the others.
@MatheinBoulomenos what are the must read books you would say to get better at algebra? like for someone beginner like myself?
Rule of thumb: Reading books doesn't make people better at mathematics.
@TedShifrin yes, I need to find $M_n$ that does not depend on x, such that |f_n(x)|<M_n for all n. But how to find M_n? I always have time find the M_n
00:42
@TedShifrin what does then Ted?
So let's take $n=1$. What is the maximum of $|f_1|$?
Doing lots of exercises. Writing mathematics. Reading passively doesn't teach nearly so much.
@TedShifrin The max is infinity, as x can be as large as we want.
Right. So all the $M_n$ are undefined in this case.
Do you understand why this sequence of functions converges pointwise to the $0$ function?
@TedShifrin so if one can't find M_n, then can't use the M test and need to try something else? What other test to use?
even great mathematicians like gauss euler etc built on work of others !
00:44
The $M$-test is for series ONLY.
@TedShifrin Yes. I proofed point wise it converges to zero.
OK. So now understand the definition of uniform convergence. If $f_n\to 0$ uniformly, this means that for large enough $n$ all the functions will be very close ("within $\epsilon$") to $0$. You can draw graphs, even. Is that the case?
@Jacksoja Artin - Algebra is pretty good because it actually gives motivation from what I've heard
@TedShifrin I see. so what should I use to show if it converges uniformally or not then?
@Jacksoja: Of course people read research papers at an advanced level and present talks on what they're learning. I'm just saying that students who just read more and more books often can't do much.
P.S. Very few of us are Gauss.
00:46
I think mathein is the next gauss
I wager to say none of us is the next Gauss.
i think this guy also was very good, helped me with many questions
I had an adviser who was one of the premier mathematicians of the 20th century. I learned early on that I was a peon.
anon had anime picture
him and mathein i would say pass for the next gauss :)
00:48
Anon, Pedro, Mathein ... all sorts of chatters are very good. But let's get perspective ...
you have pretty low standards for "next gauss"
Yeah, @Jacksoja, I suggest you drop this ...
@Jacksoja I agree with Ted. One book I learned a lot from is Atiyah Macdonald and I learned that much because I solved pretty much all the exercises (I asked for help on a few). The exposition itself isn't even that great, but the selection of exercises is great
Okay thank you !
This is the crux of my perpetual argument with @Jasper. He loves books ... but pays no attention to exercises or whether there even are exercises. I truly believe that until you get to super-advanced levels, what makes a top math text is the exercises.
00:49
on any book, I do all exercices also
All? And do you get your solutions critiqued by someone who knows?
Atiyah Macdonald may be a bit advanced for you right now
but the problem is , with the speed of the courses , you cant really enjoy doing math, you just have to learn things fast
what is the book about?
Commutative Algebra
Most of my students turned in nonsense for (some of) their homework, so "doing all exercises" is truly meaningless.
00:50
Could someone please give me a hint on how to check if the sequence below converges uniformaly or not? Since I can't use the M test?
@RobertH. I already addressed that, but I don't think you noticed that I wrote something.
@MatheinBoulomenos what are the prereq of that book?
@Jacksoja technically it's self-contained I guess
though some exercises refer to basic definitions from topology
well then I do some more algebra courses to get more "mature" and i will give that book a try
@TedShifrin sorry, I missed that. Is this about drawing graphs? I think we are supposed to do this without drawing graphs.
00:52
yeah, sounds like a good plan
What you're "supposed" to do is irrelevant. You get insight by seeing pictures (at least, most students do). But I said other things there, right?
You need to understand the definition of uniform convergence.
Asking just for procedures to follow is not a good route to mathematical success.
Very true Ted!
we learn math in hightschool the worst way
I realize I annoy a lot of people in here, but I'm stubborn about what the point of this MSE site is.
we learn there is one way to do something, or 2-3 ways and thats it, remember those and pass exam
does not teach you how to solve any new problem
Sadly, @Jacksoja, most people try to get through university math the same way. It's terrible.
00:55
Hey, we all have different opinions about things, unless something is proven to be better , all ideas are welcome
@Jacksoja if you're intrigued by quadratic integers right now, then maybe reading Jarvis might be more motivating than continuing with D&F right now. Reading the entirety of D&F sounds a bit exhaustive, especially given that you lamented the lack of motivation before
Oh, I'm not changing my methods, just saying I realize I'm not for everyone.
@Mathein: He's taking a D&F course, I believe.
But he complains it goes way too fast ...
but that's not going to cover everything, is it?
00:56
@TedShifrin yes, I saw you said " If $f_n\to 0$ uniformly, this means that for large enough $n$ all the functions will be very close ("within $\epsilon$") to $0$" but i am not sure if this will be enough proof. But will ask teacher. I thought we are supposed to use M test here.
the book is not hard, the questions are not hard , what i said , there is alot of material with no motivations
seems like learn this defintion just because ..
The book we have is terrible. No examples or anything.
Why does what you told me about the functions being unbounded answer the question, @RobertH?
I bet there are examples.
@MatheinBoulomenos we are only doing ring and group on DF . but my plan was to work though one complete book from start to finish just to get a complete picture of some topics, then start with real material
Is a function that goes to infinity within $\epsilon$ of $0$ for all $x$?
D&F has so much stuff it would take more than a year of hard work to finish it, @Jacksoja.
00:58
@Jacksoja DF is not really about one topic, "algebra" is just an umbrella term
@TedShifrin @MatheinBoulomenos okay I see, but group ring filed,galois , linear algebra than representation theory of finite groups, is that a good road?
That's enough for two years.
I would personally learn linear algebra first
it comes up a bit in field theory
which is a prerequisite for galois theory
I had a linear algebra course
and it's absolutely fundamenal for rep theory
that's good
01:00
I was talking about the topics order in DF
^^
groups, rings, fields is the standard order, sure
Well, I can do on paralell some number theory of fazer
I want to see if it is really as easy to follow as you said .
I think that is enough talking on my part , I should continue my HW ^^
thanks so much for the information and recommendation @MatheinBoulomenos @TedShifrin
always good / informative talk with you
Until next time !
thanks for being so grateful
@TedShifrin Unfortunately most math texts don't include answer guides
That's correct. Because if we had answers available, 95% of students would copy the answers and learn nothing.
In my books, I give selected numerical answers and selected proofs or sketches of proofs.
That's why someone is needed to read what students write and critique it.
There's no way around having professors/mentors/TAs ... unless you get someone on MSE to do your homework for you, as so many do.
01:09
For someone like me (a non-student, self-learner) it's pretty infuriating because there's no way to check that my understanding is on track or that I'm doing things correctly
so it takes foorrreeevvverrrr to learn anything
Yes, I realize the world is not perfect for everyone.
I have done my share of answering questions on MSE and in email that come from my various textbooks.
I agree. Having someone grade your homework and respond to your questions may be the most helpful part of taking a course
the lecture itself is more replaceable
But human nature is human nature. Even a self-learner is tempted to cheat a lot.
Well, most lectures are unremarkable, @Mathein, but some of us do try to give insight and show students how to approach mathematics. But, especially for a student like you, lecture is mostly redundant.
Howdy @Semiclassic
On that note, I need to start doing some serious reading into measure theory stuff
Just enough that I can follow the history
unfortunately seems to be the case for most textbooks, very hard to get answer guides
01:15
AS I explained, authors of serious math books don't want their books ruined by having them or having them available.
The undergrad diff geo book I know that has answers to all the exercises most faculty find impossible to use as a textbook if they teach the course. I don't know it well enough to comment, regardless.
Answer guides exist: They're called teachers. (I'm only speaking halfway in jest on that.)
the problem is that it makes the material a lot less accessible to people unless they have the means to attend a good school with professors they can talk to and ask questions to etc, being able to talk to informed people on a regular basis is invaluable
part of me also feels like if someone wants to cheat, they only cheat themselves
well, that's good philosophy, but universities still give grades that matter ... and some of us like to count homework seriously for the grade, not just base things on two exams.
But you should take advantage of serious mathematical discussions on MSE, clearly.
i understand, just saying it would be nice to see more textbooks that aren't intended for a classroom / grading setting, where practice problems and answers are provided
01:20
Textbooks not intended for classroom/grading are typically advanced graduate level. Just real life.
There are more and more resources for free on the web now.
heya Ryan
@TedShifrin do you know where in Rudin this mistake is
$\sup$ @Ryan
Oh cool. Chapter 10.
Hang on.
there are many free resources but it's also very unstructured, not everything standardized / quality-checked, could learn bad habits or slightly incorrect things conceptually, end up with gaps, unchecked assumptions, having a lot of available material doesn't always make it easier
becomes a challenge to sift through all the material and learn how to identify good material
@MatheinBoulomenos procrastinating on writing
01:22
That, again, is what a teacher is there for
not everyone has a teacher
10.20(b) he proves $d^2 = 0$ on $C^2$ forms. Then in 10.34 he quotes that to say that a $C^1$ exact form is closed. Oops.
i'm speaking in the context of self-learning outside a school
@RyanUnger ah, that sounds all too familiar
@RyanUnger I've gotten past procrastinating on writing for research. So right now I'm instead procrastinating on rewriting a lab report guide for my students.
01:23
@TedShifrin does he not stipulate that the primitive of an exact form has one order higher regularity?
@user525966: I wrote 4 textbooks and made pitifully little money off them. The last one is in .pdf form available on my website and on the AMS website for free. But I'm not going to write special books for self-learners. Just isn't practical, sorry.
I guess one should suitably modify one of the usual twice-differentiable-but-not-$C^2$ functions which have nonsymmetric second derivatives?
@user525966 even with the best possible material available, you're going to be at a severe disadvantage without access to a teacher and peers to talk to
That's what I've tried, but I don't get anywhere.
@MatheinBoulomenos I agree, sort of the point I am trying to make
01:24
The point is that $d\omega$ can in principle be $C^1$ without $\omega$ being $C^2$. For functions, no, but for higher forms, yes!!!
is $d^2=0$ not equivalent to $\partial_i\partial_j=\partial_j\partial_i$?
on a function, say
For functions, he's right.
ok so for 1-forms
That reminds me of a question I saw recently (only because of differential forms, mind)
01:26
But say you have a $1$-form $\omega=P\,dx + Q\,dy$. If $d\omega$ is $C^1$, we know $Q_x-P_y$ is $C^1$. Do we know enough about $P$ and $Q$ themselves?
@Semiclassic: You're good at free association :)
here:
2
Q: Existence of function $\phi(x,y)$ given that $(1+u_y^2)u_{xx} - 2u_xu_yu_{xy}+(1+u_x^2)u_{yy}$

D. BritoOn this paper by M. Athanassenas it is claimed that given a function $u(x,y)$ defined on the whole of $\mathbb{R}^2$, it satisfies $$ (1+u_y^2)u_{xx} - 2u_xu_yu_{xy}+(1+u_x^2)u_{yy} = 0 $$ If and only if there exists a function $\phi(x,y)$ such that \begin{align} \phi_{xx} = \frac{1+u_x^2}{\sqrt{...

oops
@user525966 there's a book I like called "Problems in Algebraic Number Theory" it's 95% problems with complete solution. Are there really no similar books like this for other areas?
There's a book by Burn on group theory and geometry that has solutions, too, I think. And Halmos's Hilbert Space Problem Book does ...
unfortunately not many!
@TedShifrin on that note, I need to get both Halmos and Stone out of the library for historical context
01:28
That looks like the minimal surface eqn, @Semiclassic.
Can one calculate a least norm solution for an underdetermined system using the Cholesky decomposition? All the sources I find talk about the least squares (overdetermined) solution.
So there is a way to deal with it in terms of forms, of course. I don't know what the question is. I'm not looking.
well that question is trivial isn't it
he's saying $u$ is an entire minimal graph
it has to be affine
mostly I was noticing that the claimed equivalence amounts to "minimal surface equation is satisfied iff $dx\wedge dy = d\phi_x \wedge d\phi_y$"
@RyanUnger "trivial" is relative to your background, of course. (mine is entirely too weak for that to be trivial)
01:29
ok it's not trivial
I don't understand the question
why is this interesting
$u$ is affine
(the proof is by now very classical)
Well, Bernstein's Theorem is a theorem, if that's what you're quoting.
This is apparently in the context of proving Bernstein's theorem
you definitely don't need forms for that
No, no. Forms are cool for a calibrations proof that you get area-minimizing with fixed boundary.
yeah you calibrate
01:32
I put that as an exercise in my book, actually :)
the hardcore minimal surfaces people calibrate without forms
Anyhow, do you agree that there's a problem with Rudin's proof? @Ryan ... My comment to the OP was that there's a good reason most of us prefer to work with smooth forms :)
Mostly I'm curious why $dx\wedge dy = d\phi_x\wedge d\phi_y$ holds true in that context.
Offhand that looks wrong to me, @Semiclassic, but I'm not engaging.
well. i say that. but now I'm trying to remember how exactly I came to that conclusion.
01:33
would you all say math is a happy or unhappy pursuit?
@TedShifrin if we take a twice-differentiable function $f:R^2\to R$ which does not have symmetric Hessian at $0$, doesn't $\omega=df$ provide a counterexample?
That was what I immediately started typing to the OP and then realized no. Because $\omega$ is not $C^1$.
Then I tried to jazz it up to a $C^2$ but not $C^3$ function (which appears nowhere, incidentally), but realized that wouldn't do it, either.
I see
yeah sorry I'm being distracted. I agree now
01:36
So there should be a counterexample, but ...
In the comments of math.stackexchange.com/questions/1139603/… Daniel basically instructs the OP to show that any measurable null set $E$ is sandwiched by two other sets $A\subseteq E\subseteq B$ such that $\mu(B\setminus A) = 0$. Thus $\mu(A)\in\mathcal M^*$. I don't see how this necessitates that all subsets of $E$ are in $\mathcal M^*$.
@TedShifrin what exactly is the counterexample you want too cook up?
Maybe I don't know enough measure theory, though.
@Mathein: A $1$-form $\omega$ that is $C^1$ and exact but not closed.
In other words, $P,Q$ so that $Q_x-P_y$ is $C^1$ but $P$ and $Q$ are not $C^2$.
I think that's a valid summary.
so the "non C^2 part" cancels out
01:47
Yup.
02:00
no that was nonsense
hmm
okay I must be being stupid. But an exact $1$-form is of the form $\omega=\mathrm{d}f$ and if this is $C^1$, then $f$ is $C^2$, so $\mathrm{d}^2f=0$
where is the mistake?
I don't understand the reformulation
better question based on my earlier one: Suppose I have a transformation from R^2 to itself. What does it mean if the Jacobian determinant is everywhere 1?
I feel like I should know that.
I guess just area-preserving?
area and orientation preserving, I guess
-1 would also preserve area
I'm a Pokemon teapot
02:25
Oh, sorry, @Mathein. I misstated. We want a $1$-form as I described and we take the exact $2$-form $d\omega$ and ask if it is closed. Yes, for functions, it's automatic. I think that was Rudin's error in thinking.
How to show that ordinal exponentiation is uncountable besides containing an infinite amount of things... Meeeep
@usukidoll what do you mean by "ordinal exponentation is uncountable"?
I know that an uncountable set has infinite amount of elements
"ordinal exponentation is uncountable" is not a precise statement
I'm at the last part of this that involves ordinal exponentiation and $ \{ \beta < \omega_{1} \mid \omega^{\beta} = \beta \}$ being uncountable. All I know is that the first uncountable comes at $\omega_{1}$
Also my cat died unexpectedly. :(
Maybe prove by transfinite induction... Nahhh beta would have to be the limit ordinal in this case.. successor be like $\beta = \alpha +1$ and zero case is $\beta = 0$
:/ I'm thinking :/
02:53
@usukidoll RIP :c
@usukidoll use the fact that $\omega^\beta$ is continuous in $\beta$
and that $\omega_1$ is a regular cardinal
03:17
Continuous? Oh like the continuous definition from real analysis courses?
Deghh :/ sorry forgot to add that I'm also sick too. Not fun doing advance math and being sick
But isn't $\omega_{1}$ the first uncountable ordinal?
can anyone help me better understand foundations and reliance hierarchy?
i don't understand the order
@usukidoll it is
there's a different continuous for ordinals
03:41
???!!! The definition of continuous in set theory is not in my book though :/
Link?
I could at least start on this last part if I had the right definition for ordinal exponentiation
@Semiclassical if you're still here, thats an incompressible field
Or maybe I'll search for continuous definition on ordinal exponentiation
Cantor normal form hmmm
@CalvinKhor point
04:20
A
((A => B) => C) => D
If (A => B) => C:
   If (A => B):
      A => B
      A
      B
   (A=>B)=>B
uh... ((A=>B)=>B) and ((A=>B)=>C) is a contradiction?
ok nvm
A=>B
((A=>B)=>B) and ((A=>B)=>C)
(A=>B)=>B
(A=>B)=>C
B
C
B and C
Ahhhh I can do a proof by contradiction... Like assume that $\omega_{1}$ and then in the end thats not the case because $\omega_{1} $ is the first uncountable ordinal
Also I'm getting a new phone case for my new phone tomorrow eeee
@Secret my cat passed away :(
04:42
the jacobian is one iff its a measure preserving flow iff its divergence-free @Semiclassical
@usukidoll sorry to hear
RIP
05:20
Can anyone prove Lebesgues Dominated Convergence Theorem where point-wise convergence a.e. is replaced by convergence in measure?
05:31
ok I have no idea what the left implication chain are useful for.
The right implication chain is useful because of the following logical equivalence:
A=>(B=>(C=>D=>(...X)) <=> (A and B and C and ...) => X
05:46
06:09
06:37
I miss my cat 😭
 
1 hour later…
07:54
If no one minds me asking an incredibly simple question, please give me a hand with some pre-algebra stuff from Khan Academy.

This problem:
Rob spent 25\%25%25, percent more time on his research project than he had planned. He spent an extra hhh hours on the project.
Which of the following expressions could represent the number of hours Rob actually spent on the project?
Actually, let me rewrite that since the paste screwed up.

Rob spent 25% more time on his research project than he had planned. He spent an extra h hours on the project.

Which of the following expressions could represent the number of hours Rob actually spent on the project?
The answers are 5h and (h/1.25)h.

I'm not really sure I understand it.
Well, I'd say you should try and express the sentence as an equation in some way. Like:
(time spent)=(time intended to be spent)+.25(time intended to be spent)
prove ((not A or B) and A) -> B = fail
Write out a truth table, Secret
08:11
does not quite match up
Yeah, looks like it's a tautology, actually
The only way $A\implies B$ is false is if $A$ is true but $B$ is false.
ah I forgot my final column, now it makes sense
 
5 hours later…
13:03
Problem: Let $V$ be a representation of $\frak{sl}(2,\Bbb{C})$, and let $C \in End(V)$ be defined by $C = \rho (e) \rho (f) + \rho (f) \rho (e) + \frac{1}{2} \rho(h)^2$, where $e,f,h$ are the standard generators of $\frak{sl}(2,\Bbb{C})$. Show that if $V = V_k$ is an irreducible representation with highest weight $k$, then $C$ is a scalar operator: $C = c_k id$. Compute the constant $c_k$.
Question: is $V_k = \{v \mid Cv = \lambda Cv \}$?
Or is $V_k = \{v \mid \rho (x)v = \lambda \rho (x)v \}$?
Where exactly do the $v$'s live?
 
2 hours later…
14:41
Hey! I have a small question: irif.fr/~mgehrke/scriptie.pdf In the proof of Prop 6.4, there is an equality: ϕ(1)=∩ϕ(1) How is this correct? Isn't ϕ(0)=∩ϕ(1)?
 
1 hour later…
16:11
@KonformistLiberal You're asking about one sentence within a proof in a published master's thesis on Stone Duality. That's sufficiently obscure that I sorta doubt you'll get a response. You may be better off emailing the author of that thesis directly.
@Semiclassical but the mathematical knowledge behind is really elementary. I tried to find any contact information of the author but failed.
An elementary proof that occurs six chapters into a master's thesis?
Also, if it's actually elementary, you can probably find it in another source
Is a differentiable function automatically homogeneous?
Reason for the question: Let $f(u,v)$ be a differentiable function and put $h(x,y,z)=f(\frac{x}{y},\frac{y}{z})$ ($y>0, z >0$). Prove that $h$ is positive homogenous of degree 0.
16:28
@schn: Of course not. Try $f(x) = x+1$ or $f(x)=\sin x$.
Right.
How can one prove that $h$ is positive homogenous if $f$ is unknown?
Solved it.
17:08
Can anyone clarify if the peano axioms usually require some kind of set theory? I posted a question on MSE but some of the answers seem kind of nutty to me
No, you don't need any set theory
At least if you're satisfied with treating the theory as a syntactic object, if you want to talk about models then some kind of set theoretic metatheory is needed
but when you write the axioms they tend to appeal to set notation do they not
18:03
@user709833 There's no need to though
If we use $L_{PA}=\{0,S,+,\cdot\}$ as language, where $0$ is a constant symbol, $S$ is a unary function symbol and the last two are binary function symbols we can write all of the axioms
Someone linked this video in another chat and I just had to share it here youtube.com/watch?time_continue=242&v=A8zWWp0akUU
I have a feeling it will be appreciated by several people
@AlessandroCodenotti How do you write all the axioms without the set notation?
e.g. "0 is a natural number" or "if n is a natural number then so is S(n)"
You don't need such axioms, the axioms describe how the natural numbers behave, not what they are. We know that there is a named one called $0$ because we have a constant symbol in the language, and the axiom describe the properties of this named number
That sounds like a sort of workaround though?
like instead of saying 0 is a natural number we
*we are sort of backdooring it in through this L_PA set?
A natural number is a thing that behaves as the PA axioms dictate
Just like a set is a thing that satisfies the ZFC axioms
18:23
when you say a set satisfies ZFC are you saying something like "our intuitive understanding of some real world concept called a set behaves the way ZFC lays out"?
Hi, demonic @Alessandro.
@user709833 Hmm let's look at a simpler example, the theory of groups, which is a theory in the language $\{+,0\}$, where $0$ is a constant symbol and $+$ is a binary function symbol
@Alessandro gets to use his logic muscles :)
Its axioms are the usual, $\forall x(x+0=x=0+x)$, $\forall x\forall y\forall z((x+y)+z=x+(y+z))$ and $\forall x\exists y(x+y=0)$
Note that nowhere they say what a group element is or that $0$ is a group element or that the sum of two group elements is a group elements. The axioms describe how elements of a group behave, not what they are
was my earlier characterization of what you said correct or incorrect?
18:35
The ZFC axioms are trying to capture properties that we believe should hold for some intuitive non formal concept of set
But what I meant is that we don't formally define what a set is through them (or elsewhere in mathematics)
Is that somehow different from what I said as well?
why are jets sort of easy to talk about but absolute hell to read any definition involving them?
I think it's backward, it's not that our intuitive understanding of some real word concept called a set behaves the way ZFC lays out, it's more like we already had an intuitive understanding and ZFC tries to formalize it, so our intuitive understanding behaves the way ZFC says by construction
But I don't think that's too relevant, even the Peano axioms have plenty of models that are wildly different from the intuitive natural numbers they were trying to formalize
@s.harp: Because you have to deal with germs and equivalence relations :)
@s.harp Apparently people doing mathematical physics like them
18:49
People doing singularity theory in mathematics do, too.
ah I can see how you would say it was backwards but yes I agree with your characterization, what I was trying to say is that we start with some intuitive understanding and we make ZFC to try to capture that, to say how it behaves
maybe i am confused on the usage of the word, like in physics we say the "bohr model" is a model for the real-life concept, the atom, and we say the atom behaves like such-and-such and we find it to be a useful model in certain situations
so do we say the natural numbers are a model of the peano axioms, or do we say the peano axioms are a model of the natural numbers?
The natural numbers are a model of the Peano axioms
But there also more complicated and unintuitive structures that satisfy them
(I'm thinking about the first order Peano axioms, the second order Peano axioms do have a single model which is the usual natural number)
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