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05:12
@TedShifrin hi
Let V be a topological vector space. If K is a compact subset of V, why is that it contains in finite translations of 1/2K?
 
2 hours later…
07:21
Morning all
 
1 hour later…
08:44
Hi, when we say a graph is cubic or 3-regular, does it have to be simple too? I mean without multiple edges and loops?
 
2 hours later…
10:22
@Buddhini Imagine you can have 3-regular multigraphs as well
10:54
I have a doubt regarding the difference between "measures" and "pre-measures". On an exercise I am asked to show that a family of sets $\Sigma$ is a sigma-algebra. And then, the the author asks "Is it possible to extend a pre-measure $\mu$ on $\Sigma$ to a measure?"
measure on
but I've shown that $\Sigma$ is a sigma-algebra
in this case, isn't $\mu$ a measure?
I am asking why isn't $\mu:\Sigma \rightarrow \text{whatever}$ called a measure rather than pre-measure?
Hmm, yes @ÍgjøgnumMeg when considering the Petersen theorem which says that "every bridgeless, cubic graph contains a perfect matching" I was thinking whether it can be applied to cubic multigraphs as well
And also the theorem "for every bridgeless cubic graph, there is a 1-factor containing any specific edge"?
Do you think we can apply it to any cubic graph, whether simple or not @ÍgjøgnumMeg?
11:15
@Buddhini I have very little knowledge about graph theory so I wouldn't know unfortunately
although according to the wikipedia definition a matching is a subset of the edge set with no loops
 
1 hour later…
12:44
Ok, your comment is very useful, Thank you very much @ÍgjøgnumMeg . Another small question, suppose I draw a Cayley graph of a group G with respect to a generating set S, by thinking that there exists an edge from $g$ to $gs$ for $g \in G, s \in S$, and another Cayley graph, by thinking that there is an edge from $g$ to $sg$ for $g \in G, s \in S$. i.e. I consider left action of G on S in one Cayley graph, and right action of G on S, in the other.
Then if i erase the labels of the vertices of both Cayley graphs and consider the underlying undirected Cayley graphs, they both are the same, right?
 
1 hour later…
13:59
is anyone online? i want to ask a question
As can be seen in math.stackexchange.com/questions/3338047/… , no poster actually addressed my question, yet some posters had no problem to use their voting power in order to negatively score it.
nvm i got answer by my own
 
2 hours later…
15:38
Ok, thank you very much for helping @ÍgjøgnumMeg
:)
Hi @TedShifrin
15:56
Hiya
Given $p \in \mathbb{R}^{m \times n}$, how can I compute $\max_a \min_b a^T P b$ subject to $a,b > 0$ and $1^T a = 1^T b = 0$?
I cant read that
latex is not integrated in chat?
use the chatjax plugin
;p
its in the room desc
and where is the room desc?
16:00
ah
yet
Basically I'm trying to compute the maximin mixed strategy for a given payoff matrix.
not worked :(
Oh yeah! now it worked
Could you xplain it a little bit?
yep
what means $a^T$??
16:15
Let $f:\Bbb R\to S^1$ be continuous injective function. How to show that this is open map?
@IzarUrdin Transpose of the column vector $a$.
ok .. sorry but I can't get it
Anyone knows how can I create a chatroom?
@user76284 implicitly, you've got $a\in \mathbb{R}^m$ (or more properly $a\in \mathbb{R}^m_>$, given your assumptions)
Yeah, and $b \in \mathbb{R}^n$
Is there a condition on $m$ vs $n$, i.e. is there anything preventing us from considering $m=n$?
16:24
Well, $m$ need not equal $n$ in general
oh, sure
but that's one of the cases?
Sure
This looks like a linear program, but there's a $\min$ in there too so I'm not sure how to approach that
right.
I'm a bit puzzled by this having a well-defined solution from these properties alone tbh
Let me see if I can find an illustrative example
Yeah, I'm not looking for closed form, just an algorithm for computing it
oh, i see what you mean more clearly now.
minimize with respect to $b$ for arbitrary $a$, then maximize with respect to $a$
16:28
Yep
The concern I'd have is whether $a^\top P b$ can be made arbitrarily negative
Maximizing the minimum utility
the constraints may prevent that of course
I think the range of utilities doesn't matter.
For zero-sum games, you can use en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game#Solving.
Since in zero-sum games maximin = minimax = Nash equilibrium.
the simplest example to try that I could imagine being weird is $P=\begin{pmatrix} 1 & -1 \\ -1 & 1 \end{pmatrix}$
16:30
That game is called matching pennies.
The solution (maximin = minimax = Nash equilibrium) is a mixed strategy where each player plays each action with equal probability.
i.e. the mixed strategies are (0.5, 0.5) and (0.5, 0.5)
hmm. Well, if I proceed naively, then I'd differentiate $F(a,b)=a^\top P b$ with respect to $b_1,b_2,\cdots b_n$
Which amounts to $\sum_{j=1}^m a_j P_{jk}=0$ for $k=1$ to $n$
oh, but you've also got those constraints
If I start with just the minimization problem, I only have the condition on $b$
so I can write down the constraint via Lagrange multipliers via the objective function $F(b_1,b_2,\cdots,b_n,\lambda)=a^\top P b-\lambda 1^\top b$
Noting that $\partial b/\partial b_k = e_k$, we have $\partial F/\partial b_k = a^\top P e_k-\lambda = 0\implies \lambda = a^\top P e_k$ for all $k$
That doesn't really pin down $b$ tho does it
16:40
You're solving $a^T P b - a^T P e_k 1^T b = 0$?
Am I? All I'm saying right now is that $\partial F/\partial b_k=0$ (and $\partial F/\partial \lambda =0$ as well)
Yeah, I don't think this is sensible
one thing to check, though: are $a,b$ supposed to be the probabilities for each player?
In that case I'd expect $1^\top a=1^\top b =1$, not zero
Oops!
You're right
yeah, that didn't seem right :)
I meant $1^\top a = 1^\top b = 1$
yeah. Doesn't really help my approach but important to get it right
Let's try the matching pennies case. Then $a^\top P b = (a_1 -a_2)(b_1-b_2)$
If $a_2>a_1$, then to minimize this you'd pick $b_1=0,b_2=1$ and get $a_1-a_2<0$.
If $a_1>a_2$, then to minimize this you'd pick $b_2=1,b_1=0$ to get $a_2-a_1<0$.
If $a_1=a_2$, then $a^\top P b =0$ and it doesn't matter what $b_1,b_2$ are
16:51
Sounds right
You're xoring a completely random bit with another bit, so the outcome will also be completely random
So $a_1=a_2=1/2$ is the best strategy, yeah
The key bit of note here with respect to my strategy, though, is the sudden switch from (0,1) to (1,0) as you go from $>$ to $<$. so you're not looking at a critical point
you're minimizing a linear function, so you look at the boundary
I'm not sure how helpful that is is when $n>2$, though. For instance, if $n=3$ then the set of allowed $b$ is the triangle formed by (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1)
That's right, the standard $n$-simplex.
and while there are points, you also have line segments
so at least in principle it seems like you'd have to look segment by segment
which seems painful
That said, this seems awfully close to linear programming
16:55
That's probably why you need something like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming#Algorithms.
Yes
Page 3 of usna.edu/Users/math/dphillip/sa305.s13/gametheory.pdf says you can introduce a variable $v$ to represent the inner minimization and solve the problem by solving a linear program
Still trying to make sense of that
Hmm. Let me see if I can make sense of that
okay, i think the idea is this. since you're minimizing a linear function, it must be the case that the minimum in $b$ is achieved at one of its vertices ($b=e_k$)
in which case the minimum $w$ is one of $a^\top P e_k$. Therefore one has $w\leq a^\top P e_k$ for $k=1$ to $n$
We don't know what $w$ is yet, but it can't violate any of those bounds
And then we try to make $w$ as big as possible, subject to those constraints.
Let V be a topological vector space. If K is a compact subset of V, why is that it contains in finite translations of 1/2K?
In the case above, that gives us the following. We have $a^\top P e_1=a_1-a_2$ and $a^\top P e_2=a_2-a_1$. So whatever the minimum w/r/t $b$ is, it must satisfy $w\leq a_1-a_2$ and $w\leq a_2-a_1$. This is empty unless $a_2=a_1$
the hard part of the above sentences is probably the "therefore"
17:39
what will be equation of line that passes through x=8 for y =0 with slope 2 ?
someone please answer it and elaborate how you got that eqn.
@MathGeek Or maybe you start working on it and we can guide you
Here is something that has been bugging me for a few days now. Let $\mu$ be a Radon probability measure on a topological space $X$. Suppose that $\mathrm{supp}(\mu)$ is discrete, is $\mu$ a sum of weighted Dirac measures centered at points of the support?
Note that this is false in general, the Dieudonne measure on $[0,\omega_1]$ is a probability measure supported on a point which is not a weighted Dirac, however it isn't inner regular so it isn't Radon either
18:03
dear chat member ignore my question i got that.Thanks for your attention
18:13
@Semiclassical Found something similar here but they're minimizing over indices, i.e. pure strategies, rather than mixtures thereof. Weird.
18:59
I see that the inner minimization is equivalent to minimizing over the set of indices.
whats the generalisation to higher dimensions of the statement that if a continuously differentiable function $f:\Bbb R\to\Bbb R$ is zero at some point $a$ there exists a continuous function $g$ with $f(x)=(x-a) g(x)$ called?
I have a (supposedly straightforward) operator algebras question @s.harp, do you want to think about it?
@AlessandroCodenotti sure
@MatheinBoulomenos How is the empty relation not reflexive?
Do you know how the reduced group $C^\ast$-algebra is defined? (I'm just dealing with discrete groups, no Haar measure on locally compact groups technicalities)
@user76284 Do you have $(x,x)\in\varnothing$ for all $x\in X$, where $X$ is the set the relation is defined on?
19:07
the empty relation on the empty set is reflexive, but not so on any other set 8-)
Doh
I was thinking in terms of the relation's own domain.
@AlessandroCodenotti no, I don't, what is it?
The empty relation is reflexive if the domain is empty though, right?
Speaking of empty domains, is axiomatizing free, inclusive logics more difficult than axiomatizing classical logic? Is that why they're less commonly used?
19:10
@AlessandroCodenotti ok, I checked out wikipedia and I know this construction, but have never dealt with it beyond superficialities
Oh ok, I was writing it out :P
if your group is discrete its just $\Bbb C[G]$ too :P
No, it's a completion of that algebra
oh right
I want to see why $C^\ast_\lambda(G)$ is isomorphic to $C^\ast_\rho(G)$ (the former uses the left regular representation, the latter is the same construction with the right regular representation)
19:13
Whats $C^\ast$? and the subscripts mean what?
(Because apparently they can be very different for cancellative semigroups)
$C^\ast_\lambda(G)$ is the reduced $C^\ast$-algebra associated to $G$
oh wait $C^\ast$ is just $C^*$, i thought \ast was a special symbol
Oh lol
The $\lambda$ is often omitted, it means that the left regular representation was used in the construction
$\rho$ means that the right regular representation was used
Apparently this makes no difference (for groups, it can make a difference for cancellative semigroups somehow)
the right representation is $\rho(g)\cdot e_{h} = e_{hg^{-1}}$?
19:18
I think the map $e_{g}\mapsto e_{g^{-1}}$ should give a multiplicative morphism between these two algebras (and the other parts of $*$-morphism are no difficulty)
Uhm wait doesn't it swap multiplication?
it does if you view it as a map $C_\lambda\to C_\lambda$, but here its a map $C_\lambda\to C_\rho$ :D
dropping the "$e$"s and calling the map $i$: $i(g\cdot_{\lambda}h)=i(gh)=h^{-1}g^{-1} = i(g)\cdot_{\rho}i(h)$
I'm missing something, I don't see why $\cdot_\rho$ like that
If $C_\lambda$ and $C_\rho$ can be constructed as two different completions of $\Bbb C[G]$ shouldn't their multiplications agree on $\Bbb C[G]$?
Maybe we are talking about different things,I was expecting:

$C_\lambda^*(G)$ to be the completion of $\Bbb C[G]$ where the multiplication is $(z_1g)\cdot (z_2h) = z_1 \lambda(g)(z_2h)$ and $C_\rho$ the same but with $\lambda$ replaced by $\rho$
Hmm wait let me spell out the contruction explicitely
The easiest way to write it is to the take the $C^\ast$-subalgebra of $B(\ell^2(G))$ generated by $\lambda(G)$
Otherwise for $f\in\Bbb C[G]$ set $\|f\|=\|\lambda(f)\|$ and take the completion wrt this norm
(the representation is extended from $G$ to $\Bbb C[G]$ in the usual way)
19:30
$U:\ell^2(G)\to \ell^2(G)$, induced by $e_g\mapsto e_{g^{-1}}$ is an isomorphism that squares to identity. And $U\lambda(g)U(e_h) = e_{hg^{-1}}= \rho(g)e_h$
($U$ is unitary too)
hence $U^* C_\lambda U =C_\rho$
@s.harp Neat
So it's not just that the two C*-algebras are isomorphic, it's really the exact same norm one is taking the completion wrt to
And it's clear why this argument doesn't go through with semigroups instead of groups
how do you defnei the right representation for semigroups tho?
Oh, no inverse you mean?
yeah
i guess you could define $R_g(e_h) = e_{hg}$ and then $\rho(g)=(R_g)^*$, but I think you might get $\lambda(g)$ like that
$\langle e_h , R_g e_f\rangle = \delta_{h,fg} = \delta_{hg^{-1},f} = \langle R_{g^{-1}} e_h, e_f\rangle$ so actually $(R_g)^* = R_{g^{-1}}$ (for groups) so maybe that is the construction
19:49
For semigroups $(R_g)^\ast$ is the map that on $gG$ looks like $gx\mapsto x$ and it is zero otherwise (writing $g$ for $e_g$), so it is kind of an inverse
I had used $R_g$ just as the "right multiplication map" on $\ell^2(G)$, i think this is a different map than you have written (coincidence of notation)
Hmmm I'm confused, this notes suggest that passing to the opposite semigroup turns the left regular representation into the right regular one, supporting the idea that $\rho(g)(e_h)=hg$
Well, using $\rho(g)(e_h)=hg$ or $\rho(g)=(R_g)^\ast$ makes no difference if we only care about the C*-subalgebra of $B(\ell^2(G))$ that they generate
This is silly, I found a ton of papers talking about the right regular representation of a semigroup and not a single source defining it
 
3 hours later…
23:20
@AlessandroCodenotti I feel you on that. Research papers always assume you know everything about the topic already.
What would be nice is an open source research "system". Maybe that uses formal proof verification as part of it.
That way it saves many man-hours of work just peer-reviewing.
23:57
Learning some Lean Prover language
It's intriguing...

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