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19:00
yeah, German just uses a term which is merely historical in English
Hey @Balarka
@MatheinBoulomenos Ehresmann's lemma is more general. Proper surjective submersions are bundles (in particular proper surjective local homeomorphisms are covering maps). This fails badly non-properly.
Hi @Mathein, @Alessandro, @ÍgjøgnumMeg, @Daminark, etc
@BalarkaSen yeah, I said it was overkill
hey @Balarka
19:06
I'm thinking of the 2D version of $(-\epsilon, 1+\epsilon) \to S^1$ sending $x$ to $e^{2\pi i x}$.
Oh sorry not $z^2$
I need something better lmao
Ah OK can do it with torus I think
Take $\Bbb C \to \Bbb T^2$, the universal covering map. Thicken the unit square a bit and restrict the map there to get a surjective submersion $U_{\epsilon}(I^2) \to \Bbb T^2$ which is holomorphic
Not a covering map
Properness is crucial
Anyway it's elementary to prove that proper surjective local homeomorphisms are covering maps, there's no hard work in it
Flip I am out of cigarettes
I need to stock shit man
@MatheinBoulomenos You don't need to be nearly so fancy as Ehresmann. It's just the "stack of records" result from point set topology.
smacks a @Balarka for smoking
Ehresmann is pretty cool
What does it say?
19:21
Yeah, but interesting when you have positive-dimensional fibers.
Proper surjective submersions are fiber bundles @Daminark
Oh snap
Complex case only?
No no
Smooth category.
Just a $C^\infty$-submersion between smooth manifolds :)
Did we ever figure out why Hatcher doesn't require covering maps to be surjective?
19:22
Ah that's nifty
@TedShifrin Nah. I doubt it's an insightful point on his part
exp : C -> C is a covering map... onto it's image
Like ok
Probably just that he wanted to make the point that if you're connected then surjectivity falls out rather than needing to be stipulated by proxy
Wait.
I'm confuzled. I don't follow.
Does he require for every point in the base there is evenly covered stuff
Or every point in the image
I don't even remember
19:27
I just checked. An open covering of the base by evenly covered open sets.
And he specifically says there he doesn't require surjectivity.
With the weaker definition of a covering map, if the target is connected then the map will be surjective, and this has epsilon more content than the analogous statement for the definition which requires surjectivity
@TedShifrin So for connected bases we have no problem, they are surjective, yeah?
Like Daminark argues
Oh wait. But then your example won't work.
ya
it's not evenly covered at 0
That's why I was confuzled.
19:28
i just didn't remember what hatcher does
Gotcha.
So surjectivity can fail only in pathological situations?
I actually have never thought this through.
@Daminark Idea (from which you can reconstruct the proof): Let $f : M \to N$ be a proper surjective submersion. Let's just take $M$ to be compact for now (how to remove this assertion?). Let $\gamma : [0, 1] \to N$ be a smooth path downstairs. $f$ is transverse to $\gamma$ (Warning! What does being transverse to a manifold with boundary mean?), so $P = f^{-1}(\gamma)$ is a smooth submanifold of $M$ which is a cobordism between $F_0 = f^{-1}(0)$ and $F_1 = f^{-1}(1)$.
Then $f : P \to [0, 1]$ is a smooth function between manifolds-with-boundary sending boundary to boundary and with no critica
This is a sketch and hardly a proof but basically the proof is the same idea (but by flowing along lifts of the coordinate vector fields in $N$ which would be $n$ commutative flows upstairs, and rigging local triviality by hand)
You don't need any Morse theory to do this proof, but I don't want to think about it.
I didn't write a proof :)
This is just the first thing I came up with when I encountered the theorem, which I still like as a way to explain why it should be true
If $M$ is compact one can do the following; for $x \in N$, $f^{-1}(x)$ is a submanifold of $M$. Then $f_*(T_x N)$ is the normal bundle to $f^{-1}(x)$ in $M$. Now $f_*(T_x N) \cong f^{-1}(x) \times \Bbb R^n$ is actually the trivial bundle
Hm, maybe harder to set up the commutative diagram of exponential maps than I thought
Ah no I can do this, let $U_F$ be a normal bundle of $F= f^{-1}(x)$ in $M$. Then I have the map $(\pi, f) : U_F \to F \times N$ where $\pi : U_F \to F$ is tubular projection.
"by Morse theory" more like by ODE...
19:44
For any point $x \in F$, $d(\pi, f)(x) = (d\pi(x), df(x))$ which is nonzero ($\pi$ is smooth retraction to $F$, and $f$ is submersion). So by inverse function theorem I can choose a subneighborhood $V_F \subset U_F$ of $F$ such that $(\pi, f) : V_F \to F \times \Bbb R^n$ is an diffeomorphism.
@RyanUnger finite-dimensional Morse theory is basically ODE + linear algebra
@RyanUnger @TedShifrin If I have a submanifold $N \subset M$ of a Riemannian manifold and I look at $\rho(x) = \text{dist}(x, N)^2$ where dist is Riemannian distance, then gradient flowlines of $\rho$ are geodesics in $M$, right?
Hello guys!!
I need to prove that $$\sum_{i=n}^{2n}i=\frac{3}{2}n(n+1)$$ using induction
Is there a characterization of functions whose gradient flowlines are geodesics? (@Ted I am reminded of the swirling mountain pass)
Base step holds, since for $n=1$ we have $\sum_1{2}i=1+2=3$, and $\frac321(1+1)=\frac322=3$
Can the inductive step be as follows?:
@BalarkaSen locally yes, it's not smooth everywhere
Ya locally
Around a tubular nbhd of $N$
Thanks!
19:55
$$\sum_{i=h}^{2h}i=\frac{3}{2}h(h+1)\implies\sum_{i=h+1}^{2(h+1)}i=\frac{3}{2}(h+1)(h+2)$$ so $$\sum_{i=h+1}^{2(h+1)}i=\sum_{i=h+1}^{2h+2}i=\sum_{i=h}^{2h}i+\sum_{i=1}^{2}i$$
Let $k$ be an even integer and $\Gamma \subset \mathrm{SL}_2(\Bbb Z)$ be a congruence subgroup and let $X(\Gamma)$ be the compactification of $\Bbb H/\Gamma$, then the Eichler-Shimura correspondence states an isomorphism of $H^1(X(\Gamma),\Bbb{C}[X,Y]_{k-2}) \cong S_k(\Gamma)\oplus \overline{S_k(\Gamma)}$ where $S_k(\Gamma)$ is the space of weight $k$ cuspidal modular forms of level $\Gamma$ and $\Bbb{C}[X,Y]_{k-2}$ is the space of homogenous polynomials of degree $k-2$
@BalarkaSen are these functions with parallel gradient
Doesn't this look like a Hodge decomposition?
I think if $k=2$, then this is the Hodge decomposition, since weight 2 cusp forms are holomorphic differentials
Oh yeah looks like it, @Mathein
Damn, pretty cool
@RyanUnger What does that mean
@Balarka if you parallel transport the gradient along its flow line you get the same vector field
19:58
Ah I see. I don't know, I'm thinking locally so I don't have periodic orbits
a path is a geodesic if and only if its derivative is parallel along the path
I know what a geodesic is lol
ok but then its just unplugging definitions to get that parallel fields are those that flow by geodesics
@BalarkaSen I've never thought about this. A generalization of the Gauss lemma, maybe.
20:00
I guess your condition doesn't say anything about the gradient in the directions orthogonal to the flow lines
The Hodge decomposition is pretty explicit, right? you just decompose a harmonic form into its $(p,q)$-components. I need to work with the isomorphism explicitly, because I need it to commute with some actions of the Hecke algebra
@Mathein: That's one way to prove it, although one rarely applies it that way. :)
it would be pretty neat if you could actually prove Eichler-Shimura via Hodge theory, as that bypasses some nasty-to-prove dimension formulas
I mean you kind of can
31
Q: Functions whose gradient-descent paths are geodesics

Joseph O'RourkeLet $f(x,y)$ define a surface $S$ in $\mathbb{R}^3$ with a unique local minimum at $b \in S$. Suppose gradient descent from any start point $a \in S$ follows a geodesic on $S$ from $a$ to $b$. (Q1.) What is the class of functions/surfaces whose gradient-descent paths are geodesics? Certainly if ...

@BalarkaSen
20:03
Brown and Hain have a paper about this
I'm sure you saw this
@s.harp Sure, $\nabla_{\text{grad} \rho} \text{grad} \rho = 0$ is my PDE, I guess. I dunno how to solve it.
Ugh horrible
@nGroupoid are you refering to my question?
@nGroupoid thanks a lot
20:04
@RyanUnger Oh I didn't
Well, I know one of those authors :)
@BalarkaSen thats bad bad BAD
@MatheinBoulomenos I summoned @nGroupoid to do battle with you
battle?
@nGroupoid Hey there
20:04
This establishes the Eichler-Shimura isomorphism for weakly holomorphic modular forms of level 1 and then you can get the usual Eichler-Shimura isomorphism by looking at a part of the weight filtration
number theory battle
you can generalize this to higher level if you want, it's a nice exercise
anyways
I need Eichler-Shimura for higher levels actually
@BalarkaSen hmm what's that PDE in coordinates
20:06
it looks quasilinear
actually the ellipticity is bad
nvm you're fucked
I think that's still doable using Brown and Hain's strategy
The main problem is that Brown and Hain use a very explicit model of M_{1,\vec{1}} over M_{1,1} and it's a little tricky to get all this to work explicitly at higher level
but I think it's still possible
@Ryan $g^{ij}\partial_j f \nabla_i (g^{\mu \nu}\partial_\nu f)=0$
can you do test geodesic analysis on compact bounded convex manifolds that are not everywhere smooth
20:08
in euclidean space its $\partial_i f (\partial_i \partial_j f) =0$
@s.harp And this is why topology is so much nicer than geometry (ducks to avoid being smacked by Ted)
@AlessandroCodenotti this is PDE, you can do geoemetry with talking about this
I heard some truth just now
My question originated from topology though
I think what I have is a definition of a stratified Riemannian space :3
really
I had some giga-trivial thoughts about that a while ago
20:09
Tell me! I'd like to hear
How can we deduce the second summand of the RHS of?: $$\sum_{i=1}^{h+1}i=\sum_{i=1}^hi+\color{red}{(h+1)}$$
Is $h+1=\sum_{i=1}^{h}(i+1)$? But that is not true
The red part is outside the summation
@BalarkaSen your PDE is vector-valued and not elliptic...maybe it's hyperbolic (in the sense of Leray) if you assume $df\ne 0$ a priori
@AlessandroCodenotti yes. My question how could I descompose the LHS into two summands
You're just writing explicitely the last term in the sum on the LHS
20:13
@AlessandroCodenotti how can we write $h+1$ in terms of summatory?
I dealt with no success
@BalarkaSen I thought this kind of stuff died with catastrophe theory
LHS=$1+2+3+4+\cdots+h+(h+1)=(1+2+\cdots+h)+(h+1)$=RHS
@RyanUnger That is usually not going to happen with my functions. I mean that's not even true for $f(x) = d(x, N)^2$. $df$ vanishes on the directions which "swirl inwards" towards $N$
If $N$ is of sufficient codimension maybe.
@AlessandroCodenotti thanks! And what about writing $h+1$ in terms of $\sum$? I tried with $\sum_{i=1}^h(i+1)$ but not succeded
@Balarka ok, but its really simplistic and im very tired right now, but the basic idea was to first look at $\Bbb R^2$ mod a finite group action, then there are some bad points where a bunch of $\Bbb R^2$s get glued together.

Now I look at a path $\gamma$ in this space. Lift $\gamma$ at a good point and suppose the lift enters a bad point $x$. I will say $\gamma$ is differentiable if I can extend from another point $gx$ so that the derivative from the right of $\gamma$ is the same as the derivative from the left of $g\gamma$
20:15
Why do you want to do that? I see no reason why it should be writable as a sum
this gives me an idea of what is differentiable, and at the bad points i have a tangent space that is like a disjoint union of tangent spaces in the cover (mod some gluing)
@AlessandroCodenotti because I have a more complicated statement: descompose $\sum_{i=h+1}^{2(h+1)}i$ using the fact that $\sum_{i=h}^{2h}i=\frac{3}{2}h(h+1)$. I have no idea what I need to write
I eventually wanted to apply these thoughts to say something about singular Lorentz-manifolds, but I got distracted with other stuff
@BalarkaSen Did you see my comment on Lie groups of isometries
hello, i gave a quick question is the open ball of center x and radius r, with the distance |exp(x)-exp(y)| when $r-exp(x)\leq0$ is it $(-\infty, ln(r+exp(x))) $???
20:20
@s.harp Take the standard orbifold picture, where $\Bbb Z_n$ acts on $\Bbb R^2$ by rotation. Then $\Bbb R^2/\Bbb Z_n$ is a cone where the angle at the vertex is $2\pi/n$, basically. What's the correct tangent space at the vertex? $T_0 \Bbb R^2$, the $2\pi/n$-sector of $T_0 \Bbb R^2$, or the $2\pi/n$-sector of $T_0\Bbb R^2$ with two rays separated by an angle of $2\pi/n$ glued togather (not linear anymore)?
Usually this isn't how one thinks of tangential structures on stratified spaces but it's an interesting idea.
@MikeMiller Yeah I did.
Ok. I know how to complete that argument but it doesn't matter that much.
Tell me, I'm interested
@BalarkaSen here a (regular) path going through the cone point is differentiable if there is a lift in $\Bbb R^2$ that has a kink of angle $k\,2\pi/n$ at $0$ (I think that angle is correct). I cannot see the tangent structure since my brain is fried, but I think it should be $\Bbb R^2/\Bbb Z_n$ itself
@s.harp Yeah so that's the third thing I listed.
@BalarkaSen Actually my argument only works if the Adjoint representation doesn't have $\text{Ad}(g) = -1$ for any $g$.
20:25
@MikeMiller I don't know what that means, though
Yeah fuck this
In the sense that I can't fix this and I shouldn't have said anything in the first place, lol
Ya but who cares, I want to understand what you have in mind
the adjoint representation is $g \mapsto d_e(x \mapsto gxg^{-1})$
I have heard about it vaguely yeah. So this is G -> GL(g)
I linked a paper which said that if you give $G$ the left-invariant metric coming from $\mathfrak g$, then the only isometries are of the form $R_x L_y$ for elements $x, y \in G$ (right and left translation). I am trying to choose an inner product on $\mathfrak g$ so that all elements of the isometry group are $L_y$.
It suffices to show that $R_x L_{x^{-1}}$ is not an isometry for any $x$
20:30
Ah
So we are now in an abstract situation. You have a compact group $G$ with an action on a vector space $V$, and you want to ask if there's an inner product on $V$ not preserved by any element of $G$.
@MikeMiller If you give $\Bbb R^n$ the usual additive structure then any translation invariant metric should have an isoemtry group isomorphic to $O(n)\ltimes\Bbb R^n$ though, right?
Already there's an obstruction, right? If $g$ acts by $-1$ it's automatically an isometry.
@s.harp how about the translation invariant metric where $(1,0)$ has length 1 and $(0,1)$ has length 2.
ah I see. anyway I said somewhere above that $G$ is compact.
ah ok, you can move that other one isometrically to standard $\Bbb R^n$
yeah i realized
20:34
@MikeMiller Ah makes sense now.
OK. $G$ is compact, so choose an invariant inner product to begin with, and enumerate an orthonormal basis $\langle e_1, \cdots, e_n\rangle$. Replace this with a metric so that $\langle e_i/i \rangle$ is an orthonormal basis. Now, "norm of an element on the new unit sphere with respect to the original norm" has essentially a unique minimum; actually it has two, and the corresponding function on $\Bbb{RP}^n$ has a unique minimum, $[e_1]$.
Therefore, any element $g \in G$ which gives an isometry with respect to the new metric necessarily sends $e_1$ to $\pm e_1$.
So you pass to the orthocomplement and iterate the argument. This should imply that the set of $g \in G$ which can act as isometries with respect to both metrics are a subgroup of $(\Bbb Z/2)^{\dim G}$.
I don't know what to say from here. Probably nothing.
Probably this doesn't work.
Ah yeah note in particular that this could never work for $T^n$ lol
hello, i have a quick question is the open ball of center x and radius r, with the distance |exp(x)-exp(y)| when $r-exp(x)\leq0$ is it $(-\infty, ln(r+exp(x))) $???
lame that it turned out that way
@LeakyNun have you an idea about my question ?
20:47
"distance |exp(x)-exp(y)|" should be "metric |exp(x)-exp(y)|"
so the open ball is $\{ y : |\exp(x)-\exp(y)| < r \}$
i.e. $\{ y \mid -r < \exp(x) - \exp(y) < r\}$
$= \{ y \mid \exp(x)-r < \exp(y) < \exp(x)+r\}$
$= \{y \mid \ln(\exp(x)-r) < y < \ln(r+\exp(x))\}$
since $r-\exp(x) \le 0$, we have $\exp(x)-r \ge 0$
so it doesn't match your answer unless $\exp(x)-r=0$, in which case "$\ln(\exp(x)-r) = -\infty$"
In which field of mathematics does one deal with three and four dimensional vector fields
I'm thinking it's dynamical analysis
or Floer type homology
Those are very different things lmao
I mean it kinda depends, vector fields are things that you care about on manifolds
chimes in without any knowledge GR?
21:01
General relativity?
is that what GR means
ye
idk tho I'm guessing cuz I know literally nothing about it
GR is 4-dimensional Lorentz-manifolds
GR is mumbo jumbo
@LeakyNun thank you
Yeah I do care about vector fields on manifolds.
21:05
but why do you care about vector fields
i mean they are everywhere in geometry
I care about vector fields because they crop up everywhere in geometry
I mean you'll study them as part of studying geometry as a result
You won't ever likely need to engage in some dedicated study of vector fields on 3/4-manifolds, you pick up what you need when you need it
There are some things for which "what can I do with ___" is not a valid question
Because you can do pretty much everything with them
what can i do with numbers
21:17
Capitalism
was sind und was sollen wir zahlen
Peterson becomes a lobster holding a hammer and sickle
I would like to learn more about how vector fields on a closed surface change while the manifold undergoes deformation
I think this is what people sometimes study in differential topology
 
1 hour later…
22:54
What's the intuition behind this theorem? I'm looking up surface integrals
Let $M$ be an $N-1$ dimensional oriented manifold and $F: M \to \mathbb R^N$ a smooth vector field, $F = (F_1, \ldots, F_n)$, and $M$ has a unit normal $\hat n(x)$, then: $\langle F(x), \hat n(x) \rangle = \sum_{i = 1}^N F_i(x) \star \mathrm dx_i$
Assuming I wrote it down correctly in my class notes
This is not a theorem. But nor is it correct.
It did strike me as off
The flux integral of $F$ over a hypersurface is given by integrating the $(N-1)$-form on the right.
I guess I wrote it down incorrectly
You can see all this stuff explained (not in arbitrary dimension, but the concepts are identical) in my videos.
22:57
is the right hand side related to $\langle F, n \rangle$?
youtube.com/watch?v=UwALe3-G5o4 should I start with this one, Ted?
The very end of that one, and then the subsequent one explains flux.
The Hodge star notation isn't used until later.
I'll watch it and then try to puzzle out what I should have written down, thanks Ted
23:12
@GFauxPas: The star operator gets mentioned (turning work integrals into flux integrals) in the middle of lecture 41.
@TedShifrin what is a work integral
line integral $\int_C \vec F\cdot d\vec r$?
You probably never learned basic physics or multivariable calculus.
23:28
@TedShifrin I was an engineering major for most of college...
I thought that's what you meant
Then you should have learned work :P
You were talking about the old fashioned Stokes theorem I guess?
Flux of curl yada yada?
Well, GFauxPas was talking about the flux integral as the integral of the star of a $1$-form.
Well, he was meaning to be talking about it.
I'm not really sure what he was asking. I didn't see a derivative or an integral in what he wrote.
no derivatives
right ... but he was missing the area form of the hypersurface ... so that one could then integrate an $(N-1)$-form.
I sorta dislike writing a hypersurface $M$ living in $\Bbb R^N$. Please don't use both capital letters :P
23:31
Oh this is just $dS=\iota_n\mu$
Exactly.
Lol, good eye for figuring that out
What's cool is that you get $\star \sum F_i\,dx_i = (\vec F\cdot\vec n)dS$.
It's not obvious from your definition of $dS$.
LOL, someone just upvoted the post I wrote on precisely that.
@TedShifrin Can you not just test both sides on an orthonormal basis
That's how you prove what I wrote
Sure, or any basis.
Well, any basis for the hyperplane.
23:37
The tangent space
But if you write out the RHS of what I typed above, it's not obvious that you get the LHS.
Even on a sphere.
So $\langle F(x), \hat n(x) \rangle \star 1 = \sum_{i = 1}^N F_i(x) \star \mathrm dx_i$ then?
This is one of the times you actually win by applying to vectors rather than trying to compute just differential forms.
Nope, @GFauxPas. The LHS is an $N$-form, the RHS is an $(N-1)$-form.
@GFauxPas $\star 1$ is the volume form for $R^N$, not the surface
d'oh
$\langle F(x), \hat n(x) \rangle \mu_{\text{surface}} = \sum_{i = 1}^N F_i(x) \star \mathrm dx_i$
or whatever
23:39
If you give up, @GFauxPas, you can read this.
Better to think of the RHS as $\star(\sum F_i\,dx_i)$, but yes.
Thanks
@TedShifrin I've had a lot of experience with these things because in mixed signature there's a sign
Question: I've got triples like $(a, b, s)$ repesenting ranges of $\lbrace x * s : a \le x * s \lt b, x \in \mathbb{Z} \rbrace$ where $s \in \mathbb{Z}, s \ne 0$, basically (start, end, step), and I'm trying to figure out how to convert that to sets of digit sequences, like $(3, 20, 4)$ to $\lbrace \lbrace 3 \rbrace, \lbrace 7 \rbrace, \lbrace 1, 1 \rbrace, \lbrace 1, 5 \rbrace, \lbrace 1, 9 \rbrace \rbrace$, without evaluating the sequence directly.
Yup, I've wrestled with that sign from time to time.
I spent an embarassingly long time trying to find it
In the end I figured it out
23:41
I think it even appears in my book, @Ryan, because I wrote a section on Maxwell's equations in $\Bbb R^{3,1}$.
It's just because somewhere in the proof the sign of $\langle n,n\rangle$ matters
The degenerate cases of 1 and -1 for me are pretty obvious, as well as a few cases like 2. But I'm struggling to find any leads on a general solution. Admittedly, I'm not well-versed in number theory.
@IsiahMeadows: I assume $*$ means multiplication. I dunno why you write it in math. But I have no idea what you're talking about with converting sequences.
I've seen very sophisticated individuals write $\cdot$ for multiplication of numbers
Yes. I meant $xs$. My bad - too used to programming languages.
23:43
Very puzzling
Sometimes I use $\cdot$, @Ryan, depending on audience/context, but never *.
Normally, I omit the dot, but I'm not a mathematician here.
The paper I'm thinking of is Annals, I believe.
OK, So your "conversion" is sending the triple $(a,b,s)$ to the set of $x$'s?
No, that's not right.
I'll post a question on Math.SE with a better explanation of what I'm going for. My question wasn't quite accurate.
23:45
Yes, please make it explicit and accurate.
Ah yeah, $(n-1)\cdot f'(r)$
I don't see what the dot adds
I concur.
It's really just I'm trying to convert arbitrary integer ranges like 2, 5, ... into DFAs based on their digits.
Don't assume we know what DFA means.
Decoupled Frequency Adjuster?
Democratic Forum Assembly?
23:49
Disassociative Fool Analysis
Guess we'll never know
urban dictionary gives some clues
none that make sense in this context
I wouldn't think to run to Urban Dictionary for an acronym in a math chat.
Disassociative Fool Analysis
that's an odd comment to make
It seemed inspired to me.
23:56
Well, might want to dial it back a bit :)
Hit too close to home, Ultra?
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