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12:03
Hi. Does anyone care to answer a quick ring theory question?
(It's far too small to post as an actual question.)
just go ahead and ask
If R is a collection of rings, is R therefore a ring itself?
I think yes.
under what kind of operations?
Addition and multiplication
... as in direct sums and direct products (of rings)?
12:05
I should clarify: By collection, I mean R is formed by the embedding of several rings.
Sorry for already murdering the language. >.<
Anon, I'm not fully familiar with direct sums and direct products. One moment.
embedding of several rings into a distinguished ring, say $S$? and by "formed" do you mean some kind of union?
It's not direct sum/product. It's just addition and multiplication of the elements in each embedded ring (and each embedded ring has basically the same type of element).
Basically, we're saying R is all the elements of embedded rings under the exact same operations as the embedded rings and every embedded ring has the same operations.
Okay. Then no, the set-theoretic union of subrings is not itself necessarily a ring. Take $\Bbb Q[\sqrt{2}]\cup \Bbb Q[\sqrt{3}]$ for example. Multiplying or adding $\sqrt{2}$ and $\sqrt{3}$ together doesn't work. However we can speak of the ring generated by this set...
(Instead of viewing the elements of our collection of rings as embedded rings, it's easier just to think of them as subrings. In this case subrings of eg $\Bbb Q[\sqrt{2},\sqrt{3}]$)
that's quite the conversation you guys had with iyengar
Can you clarify what $\mathbb{Q}[\sqrt{2}]$ and $\mathbb{Q}[\sqrt{3}]$ are? You mean the ring of rational numbers over $\sqrt{2}$ and $\sqrt{3}$, respectively?
@Eugene, yes. It was very nice.
12:14
$R[x]$ is the polynomial ring, in this case for example $\Bbb Q[\sqrt{2}]$ consists of all sums $a+b\sqrt{2}$ with $a,b$ rational. (because $\sqrt{2}\cdot\sqrt{2}\in\Bbb Q$, it only requires two rationals to designate an emelent of this ring)
Oh, I see what you mean by your example. Because you can get the element $\sqrt{6}$, you haven't formed a ring (since that's not in the union). Correct?
yes, the set-theoretic union need not satisfy closure under the binary operations
hmm...
Maybe my example is very specific.
your example?
Yeah, what I was working on:
12:17
@Limitless You want to know what $\Bbb{Q}(\sqrt{2})$ are ?
You are looking at the right person to talk to about them :D
@Limitless Two definitions of what $\Bbb{Q}(\sqrt{2})$ is:
The smallest field containing the set $\Bbb{Q}(\sqrt{2})$ and $\sqrt{2}$
or:
Q[x]/(x^2-2)
The $\Bbb{Q}$ - vector space $\Bbb{Q}[x]/(x^2 - 2)$
I was trying to show that $R[X]$, where $R[X]$ is the collection of polynomials over an infinite amount of symbols (but with every polynomial using only a finite amount of symbols), is a ring if $R$ is a ring because, for every polynomial $p(x)$, there corresponds a ring $R[x]$ where $x$ is the symbols contained in $p.$
(Sorry if I did not communicate that well. I am still learning.)
@Limitless what is over an infinite amount of symbols?
He means $R[x_1,x_2,\cdots]$.
12:19
@Limitless You might want to see localisation action, similar to your question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/137876/…
Well, for a fixed value of "infinity", yes, it is a ring. Otherwise it might be a proper class...
@ZhenLin hi
I suppose you can define it as a direct limit of $R[x_1,\cdots,x_n]$ as $n\to\infty$, in which case your reasoning holds.
@anon Whoa. So my reasoning does work? :O
12:21
@BenjaLim: No. $\bigotimes_i R[x_i]$.
@ZhenLin i've been meaning to ask, do you do research in category theory?
Yes.
@ZhenLin The usual isomorphism $k[x,y] \cong k[x] \otimes k[y]$ holds here?
Yes.
(but extended to an infinite thing)
12:22
@Limitless If you define it with the direct limit (a categorical construction), yes. Personally I think it's so clear as to not even require justification. :P
@ZhenLin what are some research problem in CT?
@anon I don't think we need to use thermonuclear weapons here :D
@anon, I haven't ever heard of the direct limit before.
@anon: You need to show that the direct limit of rings is a ring. :p
dicks
12:23
Hmm..
@anon I think one only takes direct limits of modules no?
@anon what is the direct limit of a directed system of rings?
@Limitless chill out :D
("dicks" in response to the problem of saying the direct limit is a ring)
@BenjaLim Are you asking for a definition?
@anon I have not seen "direct limit of rings" before.
@BenjaLim Every ring is a $\mathbb{Z}$-module in particular. :p
I'm not sure where to go with this problem.
12:24
@ZhenLin you're throwing away the multiplication structure that is?
@Limitless It is clear that $R[x_1,\ldots ]$ is a ring
It's the easiest way to convey what the direct limit of rings is to a person who knows what the direct limit of modules is.
@BenjaLim If $R_1\hookrightarrow R_2\hookrightarrow R_3\cdots$, then we take the disjoint union of them and then quotient it by identifying two elements if one can be obtained from the other by throwing it through the embeddings
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
@anon In AM I believe the direct limit is the just the union of all those guys?
@BenjaLim, I know. But precisely why? I thought I could show it via what I explained above, but that seems insufficient.
of course the index set can be different
@BenjaLim the union? how do you add/multiply two elements of two different rings? to do that you'd need to interpret the embeddings as inclusions of subrings. (which is of course permissible I suppose)
12:26
@ZhenLin When you take an infinite tensor product, elements in there look like...
i think i learnt the cardinal rule of cartoons and comics: anything that can explode will explode
Fun fact: every ring is the direct limit of its finitely generated subrings.
@ZhenLin I know that for modules
@anon ah crap now we are dealing with this shit on multiplication
in modules none of this was going on
@BenjaLim The tensor product of commutative rings can be defined in a slightly different way that makes it work for infinitely many factors.
universal properties?
12:28
@ZhenLin I have not seen an infinite tensor product before. I would imagine one needs to modify some things
@Limitless what earlier proof?
can I see it? Chat transcript?
The "tensor product" of commutative rings $(R_i : i \in I)$ is the commutative ring $R$ such that $\textbf{CRing}(R, S) \cong \prod_{i \in I} \textbf{CRing}(R_i, S)$ naturally for all commutative rings $S$.
hm, what does CRing actually stand for? comm. ring homomorphisms?
Yes.
This is for tensor products over the base ring $\mathbb{Z}$. For a general base ring $B$, replace $\textbf{CRing}$ by $\textbf{CommAlg}_B$.
@BenjaLim, I thought that by showing how every polynomial of $R[x_1,\dots]$ can be associated with a ring $R[x]$ where $x$ is the set of symbols used in the polynomial, $R[x_1,\dots]$ is therefore a ring. Sorry if my reasoning is flawed, I'm just now learning this stuff.
@ZhenLin so what are some areas of research in category theory?
12:33
@Eugene: See here. :p
@ZhenLin ?
I can't understand 95% of that site.
@Limitless: That is basically the elementary form of anon's argument using direct limits.
@anon neither can i
@ZhenLin, so my argument is correct? I am unfamiliar with the direct limit (haven't even touched category theory yet), so I didn't fully understand what anon was arguing.
12:35
It can be made correct.
How so, if you care to explain?
means you can view R[x] inside R[x,y] inside R[x,y,z] inside etc. etc., and all of these can be "glued together"; adding or multiplying the elements from any two of them will result in an element of some R[x,y,...] down the line.
But I mean, it's just needless sophisticated. The point is the sum, difference, and product of two polynomials is a polynomial.
i asked around and it seems that most people think of category theory as a useful language for geometry rather than an area of active research
Succinctly: $x\in R[X],\, y\in R[Y] \implies x+y,xy\in R[X\cup Y]$.
geometry? why geometry?
12:37
@ZhenLin, I didn't mean to make it needlessly sophisticated. I just wasn't sure if you could argue it from the way you just said.
@anon sheaves, schemes, etc?
oh right, I reflexively associate the word "geo" with differential geometry
@ZhenLin The real point is that polynomials form a ring, no matter how many variables, right?
Yes.
@anon right
12:39
@Eugene: It is an active area of research, just not one people pay much attention to anymore.
I don't know why I didn't just argue from that viewpoint. -_-
@Limitless Honestly, IMHO there is no need to invoke direct limits, categories, tensor products etc
@Limitless Point and fact is:
The sum of two polynomials is a polynomial
@ZhenLin i see. i should ask some mcgill mathematicians
same with products
1 is in your ring
rest of the axioms almost automatically
done
0 too
Well, I'm off to fight a hangover. Later.
12:40
@anon At least you're not stoned :D
@Eugene: McGill had some great category theorists, but I think they're retired now...
@BenjaLim, for some reason, I didn't think of it on that level. I should have immediately.
@Eugene Last night I got really stoned by the beach
@Limitless I realised when I was starting out there was a tendency to overcomplicate matters
@BenjaLim salad?
then the cops pulled up
@Eugene yes
12:41
@ZhenLin that's what i heard.
@Eugene The cops searched the rest of the 7 white guys
not me :D :D
why not?
@Eugene Just a view that it's white boys that touch weed and not asians :D
and there is an advantage of being asian
@BenjaLim, I think that's everywhere in mathematics.
@BenjaLim first time racism works towards the positive
12:42
@Eugene I didn't get a flashlight shined in my face
especially on white guys
their iris' just give it away :D :D
that's a really easy check to see if you're high
@Limitless Go get high or something
@BenjaLim they're decriminalized anyway so what's the big deal
pot?
@BenjaLim, I'm not really into that.
No it's illegal in NSW
@Limitless which country are you in now?
Interesting discussion
only i do not understand it
12:44
@Hawk the drugs?
@Hawk so how is it interesting?
becuase
advice from osho :D
I do not get the context
I actually
@Limitless Trust me you should try to experience as many things as possible in life
12:44
to ask a question
came here
@BenjaLim, I can understand that viewpoint.
However, I can't quite take up weed as a hobby.
The smell is terrible...
uhh,..can anyone please point me to a slightly compressed treatment of first and second order differential equations
?
@ZhenLin it is. my ex-roommate smokes so much weed
@Limitless you misunderstood me
I did use words to the effect of asking you to get high
nor am I addicted to weed
@Limitless Getting high is not a hobby
@Hawk where are you in the world now?
12:47
India
@Hawk you should know osho :D
@BenjaLim, Sorry for misunderstanding. I thought that was what you meant.
I care not
@BenjaLim seeing its recreational nature i think it is
@Limitless I am just saying, there is another side to life too
@Eugene it's not for me. I do it like 4 times a year and that's it
12:48
besides math? i find that hard to believe.
There's more to life than math, this is true.
what's hard to believe?
that there is more to life than math
@Limitless I did not ask you to become addicted to it
I once thought weed was something so dangerous
well. maybe cartoons and video games but nothing else really.
12:49
Then I tried it
It looks like I need to get going.The discussion is quite serious here.|Life-math|<M for every M>0 , M is in R.
and got to know this "danger"
@Hawk Maybe you could have a look at some of the questions tagged differential-equations+reference-request. There's a chance you find something useful there.
@BenjaLim, I think you are assuming a lot of what I don't mean.
@Limitless I'm just giving advice man :D
@Limitless I'm not much older than you are
12:50
I'm just saying, I didn't think you wanted me to get addicted.
@anon yes i thought it was interesting. i liked the part about vampires too.
I don't think weed is addictive...
@Limitless I'm saying this because my teenage years (16 - 18) went really quickly
@Limitless which country were you brought up in?
@Limitless it is. no more so than cigarettes though
@BenjaLim, the U.S.
12:51
@Eugene I'm not addicted to it :D :D
@Limitless i mean if video games are addicitive...
I live on a rather nice mountain.
@Limitless Do you know paul erdos took crystal meth?
@BenjaLim, haha, yes.
That for me is more dangerous than pot
@Limitless I think he attributes his use of it to his output of maths
12:52
@Eugene, I have issues with the idea of addiction. I'm still uncertain.
@BenjaLim, yes. That's precisely what he thought.
@BenjaLim did he? i thought he just took amphetamines
Wait, I think @Eugene is right.
why are people starring my weird posts?
same thing I believe
betwixt is such a nice word.
12:55
Methamphetamines (crystal meth) and amphetamines aren't the same thing, I think.
@Limitless Sorry then it is amphetamines
It's fine. Easy slipup.
@Limitless people like to use thermonuclear weapons when it's not necessary
@Limitless did you see the link about a PID contained in its ring of fractions?
I glanced at it. I didn't fully understand the ideas being discussed. @BenjaLim.
that is commutative algebra.
That's where we make all these things precise.
12:59
Sorry if this is a silly question, but what exactly is the difference between commutative algebra and a regular algebra? Do we restrict the algebra to only objects which satisfy commutativity?

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