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18:00
All right ... i'll close that question!!! I'll ask a bit later one question
@JM Just going through transcript, this is incorrect: the message was auto-removed within a couple minutes, I did not personally remove or retract it. I just presumed with some of Jordan's statements around the time, my sentiments were fair game.
btw that group theory question I had turned out to be trivial @DylanMoreland :)
If $|X^U|=|X^V|$ for any $G$-sets $X$ with $U,V\le G$, we can choose $X=G/U$. This has a fixed point under $U$, so there must be a fixed point under $V$, ie $VgU=gU$, or equivalently $g^{-1}Vg\subseteq U$. Reversing roles tells us they're the same size, so they must be conjugate.
@anon Everything's trivial once it's done :) How?
@DylanMoreland Exactly!
Glad you didn't pull an Asaf and disappear, by the way.
Thanks. I think Asaf did some re-evaluation and decided not to stay partly because he viewed the chatroom as a time waster and had other things he wanted to move on to.
18:14
Hmm.
@anon That is, I find nothing out of the ordinary about what you said.
but I guess if enough people flag it, it is auto-removed.
hi all again.
I think Jyrki might have fully answered my question using contradiction, but I have to check a couple of things: (1) Are rank $n-1$ matrices all in the same orbit under GL action? (2) Can lower-rank matrices all be decomposed as products of diagonal $n-1$ rank matrices (and GL again I guess)?
hey @Eugene
@robjohn Indeed, that's why I took a screenshot of the whole thing and posted it.
it is puzzling how people get suspended here.
this is where my linear algebra fails me, and I'm too lazy to think properly about it :)
18:23
looks like i have to go again. wow.
sorry bye all!
that was ... brief
Hmm, I think a geometric argument with subspaces should work.
@anon how is this Jacobian related in transformation??
Can't it be used in transformation relation between unit vectors??
no
BTW, there's not really such a thing as "unit vectors" in curvilinear coordinates anymore...
the Jacobian can be used to change the coordinate system in order to evaluate some multivariable integrals
or simply describe the local geometry of a manifold...
Hmm ... isn't it related to transformation then?? from cylindrical to cartesian??
@experimentX Sure, it's obviously related. The Jacobian doesn't tell you anything about global positioning though, it only has information about infinitessimal rates of change, and the local geometry around a single point
hence the derivatives
18:33
Oh ...
I have a book it says, unit vectors from one system is another is $$ \hat e_{\rho} = \frac{d \vec r/d\rho}{d \vec r/d\rho }$$ it doesn' tell why
eh, I guess we do have unit vectors in curvilinear coordinates, they just no longer work the same way
I think this is geometrically done ... but one thing i don't understand is the writer creates a matrix ...
wait no, that's not quite right
if I had paper and a pen I could draw this out and explain better but I don't feel like mspainting it atm
it's all right ... i'll state my most confusing part
18:54
Using the above relation, the author calculates $$ \begin{bmatrix}
\hat e_{\rho}\\
\hat e_{\theta}\\
\hat e_{\z}
\end{bmatrix}
=
\begin{bmatrix}
\cos \phi & \sin \phi & 0\\
-\sin \phi & \cos \phi & 0\\
0 & 0 & 1
\end{bmatrix}


\begin{bmatrix}
\hat i\\
\hat j\\
\hat k
\end{bmatrix} $$
Let $$ \text { Let } A =

\begin{bmatrix}
\cos \phi & \sin \phi & 0\\
-\sin \phi & \cos \phi & 0\\
0 & 0 & 1
\end{bmatrix} $$
Then $$ \hat i =
\frac {
\begin{bmatrix}
\hat e_{\rho} & \sin \phi & 0\\
\hat e_{\theta} & \cos \phi & 0\\
0 & 0 & 1
\end{bmatrix}
}{|A|}
\\
\hat j =
\frac {
\begin{bmatrix}
\cos \phi & \hat e_{\rho} & 0\\
-\sin \phi & \hat e_{\theta} & 0\\
0 & 0 & 1
\end{bmatrix}
}{|A|}
$$
This is the most confusing part !!! ..... if the author had done ... inverse instead of this ... i would have understood ...
And so goes for $ \hat z $
@anon any idea on this??
I guess i'll ask a question on main site....
19:21
Back from Madrid!
posted a new question math.stackexchange.com/questions/158810/… please check
0
Q: Transformation of unit vectors from cartesian coordinate to cylindrical coordinate

experimentXLet $ (\hat i, \hat j, \hat k) $ be unit vectors in Cartesian coordinate and $ (\hat e_\rho, \hat e_\theta, \hat e_z)$ be on spherical coordinate. Using the relation, $$ \hat e_\rho = \frac{\frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial \rho}}{ \left | \frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial \rho} \right |}, \hat e_\t...

direction fields are really tough to follow, is there a rule for how to sketch a graph out of them?
user19161
@JonasTeuwen Hope you enjoyed yourself!
@JasperLoy Yes, sure.
19:41
@experimentX see my comment to your question
HI .. @DavidWheeler I saw it
of course, if you expand all the determinants out, you get more conventional-looking formulae
Hmm ... yes ... but if it had been inverse of it ... then it would be obvious
Is there a way to simplify base-base/(1+rate)
More more elegantly put x-x/(1+y)
But the author is putting this unit vectors inside the columns .... which i cannot understand
user19161
19:46
@musicwithoutpaper You wanna combine it into a single fraction?
the important thing is the matrix A *is*invertible
E = AI => I = A^-1 E
Well, i should be, it's determinant is unity
@JasperLoy, yea, I don't know if it can be done.
well, yes, but "I" has a special meaning for matrices, so perhaps another letter would be better.
Lol ... sorry, let's say B
19:49
@JasperLoy, In this case rate is a percent, for example .05, so if base is 105% of something, I know what the original something is with base/1.05, but I want to know what was added to that something, but not sure if it is possible to do it shorter than I have already done.
user19161
@musicwithoutpaper $x-\frac{x}{1+y}=x(1-\frac{1}{1+y}=x(\frac{y}{1+y})=\frac{xy}{1+y}$
@JasperLoy, Gee thanks! 8-D
:D
the point is, if you know how to transform A-coordinates to B-coordinates, and you know how to transform B-coordinates to C-coordinates, you can get A-coordinates in terms of C-coordinates. the algebra can get messy, though.
yeah ... sure .... but still i'm looking it with doubt (why it works)
certainly ...it's a lot easier to evaluate that way that to find inverse
and yes rectangular-->spherical, or rectangular-->cylindrical are easy transforms. the inverses are a bit more complicated.
19:56
Yes ... but author expresses easier method on this particular case ... which is why i'm interested
i don't know why the author did what he did...i don't have the context.
but from my point of view, what i see is linear algebra applied to analysis.
hi all
if you actually try to explicitly calculate the inverse matrix, you're going to get a det(A) factor that comes out. then when you find the principal minor determinants, and multiply them (like in a dot product) with the cylindrical basis vectors, you'e going to get the same expressions.
Hey guys, what does the >> mean (as one greater-than is smaller and inside the inbound area of the bigger greater-than symbol)?
look at this page for the general inverse of a 3x3 matrix: mathworld.wolfram.com/MatrixInverse.html
20:04
thanks for link :)
@shookees this is occasionally used to mean big-O
oh, thank you :)
@MattN see section 7.4 for an application of quadratic transformations.
Hi
Can I get some help?
1,4,8,_,19,26
I have to fill in the missing number. Please help out. Its not homework.
hint: 4-1 = 3
8-4 = 4
26-19 = 7
fill in the missing numbers?
20:10
well, THAT sequence is 3,4,,,7 so i guess 5&6
hahahaha
yes
indeed
How?
Still cant get it :(
1,4,8,13,19,26
13 - 8 = 5
@StartupCrazy the difference between succesive numbers increases by 1 each time
19 - 13 = 6
20:12
so we start with 1 "skip 3" so 4 next
oh my, 3-7 are the numbers getting added.
indeed
to each of the term produced
lol ... when i get these kind of problems ... first i go there and after i let my head hurt
then we have 4 "skip 4", so 8
20:12
I have IBM test tomorrow.
Actually today.
Thanks
no problem
when confronted with a "fill in the missing numbers" problem, try looking at the differences between successive terms first
Can you help me out with How To Solve It?
there's usually an obvious pattern buried "one level down"
Like some of these basic steps
20:14
Isn't there a formula for it?? i think it's called quadratic or ... something sequence
Like first check for addition of a particular number, then for subtraction and things like that.
beats me. i just look and guess.
right. the sequence of differences might be: 1,2,3,4,etc. or maybe 1,3,5,7, etc. (odd), or 2,4,6,8, etc. (even)
sometimes you'll get an "odd-ball" like 1,4,9,25 (squares)
@experimentX: You gave an awesome link. I will bookmark it.
@DavidWheeler what's so odd about squares? the difference will be odd numbers
20:17
lol ... np :)
3,5,7,9
@Eugene, i'm saying the "differences' might be squares, as in: 3,4,8,???,42
@DavidWheeler i see
@DavidWheeler Yes, but then you just keep making higher-order differences until you reach something that looks simple.
@HenningMakholm yes, if you have enough terms to go on. and that's a first-rate idea!
20:19
anyone here know about transfinite induction?
This can reconstruct any polynomial sequence if you have enough consecutive terms relative to the polynomial's degree.
@Eugene A bit.
do you know about value groups as well and transcendental extensions?
I am trying to solve the differential equation $y' = x + y$ but the book tells me to make the change of variable $u = x + y$ what do I do? I know I can't just write $y' = u$ do I change it to $u' = u$ or what?
@Eugene Sounds like something like Galois theory; can't say I'm an expert there.
@HenningMakholm it's valued fields.
20:21
Yeah, Galois isn't quite as broad as I was trying to make it there :-)
@HenningMakholm haha. indeed!
@Jordan If you set u=x+y you also get y=u-x. So y'=u'-x' by linearity and x' is just 1.
Is it a common thing for math conferences that people go out and get drunk like every night?
@StartupCrazy this link might be helpful to you
basically i'm trying to construct valued groups of any arbitrary rank from $\Bbb{Q}$ to $\Bbb{C}$.
20:23
So the substituted equation is u'-1=u
1,7,3,11,5,15,_,19,9
@experimentX: The first site you mentioned could not solve this one :p
@StartupCrazy Half of the numbers seem to be larger than their neighbors; the other half are smaller than their neighbors. Perhaps each of those groups has a nice internal progression?
@StartupCrazy this is easy though
@Henning I see what you are doing but I do not know what linearity is
4, -6, 8, -6, 10, -8, 12
-10
so the missing number is 7
20:25
@Jordan Oops, sorry. Linearity is just the rules (f+g)'=f'+g' and (cf)' = c(f').
lol ...
@Jordan he means (af + bg)' = af' + bg'
Oh I know that
whoops
I am just confused how it applies, my biggest confusion I guess is what the dependent variable is
20:26
typo
hahaha
it's 6,-4. hahaha
@Jordan y and u are both dependent variables -- there can be more than one. Luckily there is only one independent variable, namely x.
typically x is the independent variable, and y is the dependent one y = y(x).
correction: 6, -4, 8, -6, 10, -8, 12, -10
So would I just write $\frac{d}{dx}$?
isn't that 7??
20:27
(If there are more independent variable, you get partial differential equations, which is a whole nother can of worms).
yup
the missing number is 7
i'm giving the pattern
lol ... i looks like 1,3,5,_,9 + 7,11,15,19
OEIS is not that smart
@experimentX OEIS isn't magic. it's the list of known ones. some are too trivial to store.
so if u = x + y, then du/dx = d/dx(x + y) = dx/dx + dy/dx = 1 + dy/dx, or more simply: u' = 1 + y'
@Jordan I have been assuming that the prime in $(...)'$ means $\frac{d}{dx}(...)$, yes.
20:29
@Henning I could be wrong but in class we have been writing $y'$ to always mean $\frac{dy}{dx}$
I'd write $\partial_x y$.
4, -6, 8, -6, 10, -8, 12
-10

so the missing number is 7
Where did 4 come from?
@Jordan Yes, that's the most common convention for ODEs.
@Jordan in the case you are studying, it's ok to assume the differential operator is d/dx.
@StartupCrazy i told you. the first on is a typo
20:31
Oh okay sorry.
the correction is 6, -4, 8, -6, 10, -8, 12, -10
That notation is very ugly and useless.
I am just confused where to move from $y = u -x$ because I don't know how to work with 3 variables
I have never seen anybody use it at a PDE & Harmonic Analysis conference!
well you still only have one variable, Jordan
suppose y is a function of x, that is y = f(x).
then if u(x) = x + f(x) = x + y, u is still a function of just x.
20:33
An example of selective perception :D
So you should really be writing u(x)=y(x)+x instead of u=y+x, but it's just tedious to write the "(x)" each time, so it's often left implicit.
differentiate both sides, we get: u'(x) = 1 + f'(x) = 1 + y'
so 1 + x + y?
lol, where did that come from?
y' = x + y
20:35
so no one here knows valued fields?
hmm...let me see if can explain this. the differential equation y' = y can be turned into the homogeneous one y' - y = 0, which is easy to solve. but in y' = x+y we have that pesky "x" term, so we want to get rid of it.
so x + y is not seperable
or autonomous?
I forget the terminology
if we replace y by the related function u, we get a "nicer" equation
but in $y' = x+ y$ we only get rid of one term to replace it with another, so there are two functions? Tw dependent variables and an idependent? And this is okay because I "solve" them seperatively?
well, the whole goal is to find out "which" function of x y is. it's like a murder mystery, and the differential equation is our only clue.
we establish that y' = u' - 1, so that's our "new" left side. and our "new" right side is: u, so we have: u' - 1 = u. look, no pesky "x"'s all by themselves.
20:47
So there is a u(x) and a y(x)?
yes, and u(x) is related to y(x) by the equation u(x) = y(x) + x.
as Malcolm pointed out, it gets tedious to keep writing the (x) after the dependent variables, so out of laziness, we often don't.
Anotehr thing I am confused about if I have $\frac{dy}{dx} = y + 1$ What can I do with it? I can only subtract y do I get $dy-y$ and I can't integrate that can I?
but you can, if it helps you keep things clear in your mind.
@DavidWheeler Who is that?
@HenningMakholm sorry, bro
20:52
hi
in my defense, i can only say i just woke up, and the fog hasn't quite lifted yet
this month I'm gonna get diploma from High School here in italy
I wanted to start studying probability....
just wanted some books suggestions...
Should I just make a question out of this? lol
I still don't quite get it
@Jordan There's a technique you have to use.
So I have $y' = y(x) + x$?
20:55
I don't think most people (including me) could figure out the technique on their own.
You have to subtract $y$, and then multiply by a function (both sides) in such a way that the LHS can be 'factored' as the derivative of a product
This one was crazy : 3,5,9,17,_,71
Thanks to oeis
in other words, there is a function $\mu$ such that $\mu y'-\mu y = x\mu(x)$ can be written as $(p(x) y)'=x \mu(x)$
@JonasTeuwen I don't know. But I want to verify this claim experimentally.
@MattN There is one in Helsinki 29-31 August 8-)))).
expanding the LHS of the desired form, we get $p y'+p'y = \mu y' -\mu y$. Thus $p=\mu$, and since $p'=-\mu$ we can also say $\mu$ satisfies the differential equation $\mu'=-\mu$. This can be solved as $\mu=e^{-x}$.
20:58
Is p(x) = y' - y?
So: $y'-y=x$ becomes $e^{-x}(y'-y)=xe^{-x}$ becomes $(e^{-x}y)'=e^{-x}x$. Now integrate both sides.
@anon Are you responding to y'=y+1 here? I would just substitute u=y+1 and get u'=u.
@Jordan Why would you say p=y'-y? Where does that come from?
@HenningMakholm I'm responding to y'=y+x
I am confused how you got from the first part to the second
Actually you might not be at this technique, and you're supposed to do homog solution + particular solution.
21:00
@anon i think that's where he's at, because of the hint he was given
Oh, okay, then disregard my explanation of the integrating factor method.
What you're supposed to do then is: find one particular solution (it will be of the form y=ax+b), and then also find the general solution to the homogeneous equation y'-y=0. Then add the particular solution to this general homog solution and you will wind up with the general form of the solution to the inhomogeneous equation $y'=y+x$.
Should I just make this a question? I am still confused
@anon...i concur, but at this point, we're dealing with u's, not y's.
Whatever you want.
I'm not sure where $u$ is in this picture, I came to the party late.
he was given the diffyq y' = y+x, and then given a hint to use the substitution u = x+y
which now gives us a new diffyq u' - 1 = u
21:06
Oh. Well then you don't even need the homog+particular technique.
Then you can say v=u+1 and ...
and his question is now: "well, what do i do with THAT""?
(like Henning said)
right...and now we have a THIRD differential equation v' = v. which IS homogenous.
hopefully he know that the general solution to that is $v(x) = Ae^x$
and then work backwards with the substitutions....
although i am unsure at this point if Jordan is still following the discussion
Hey guys,
do any of you use a wacom tablet for writing maths?
21:33
@DavidWheeler thanks for your answer :D
wow. my valued fields question got immediately downvoted.
without comment too. i wonder if it's a dumb question?
@Eugene that looks like CA
@BenjaminLim it's not. it's valued fields
@Eugene Doesn't CA deal with stuff about valuation rings?
@Eugene Beats me. I've upvoted to compensate.
21:38
@BenjaminLim complex analysis? no that i know of
@BenjaminLim you're welcome
@HenningMakholm oh thanks. is there anything wrong with it that you can see?
@DavidWheeler I'm studying your answer carefully now
@Eugene In context, it's probably Commutative Algebra.
@Eugene commutative algebra
21:38
i hate to be asking a stupid question
ah commutative algebra. no it's from engler's valued fields.
@Eugene Sorry man, on Arxiv commutative algebra is actually AC while CA is classical analysis of ODEs
@DavidWheeler I have an analysis exam on monday
@Eugene I see nothing wrong -- except that transfinite induction belongs more in (elementary-set-theory) than in (logic). I retagged it.
@HenningMakholm oh thanks then. if there's nothing wrong with it then i'll just chalk it up to trolling!
thanks henning for looking through it
@Eugene I upvoted your question to compensate for the downvote
@BenjaminLim you needn't do that. i don't mind the rep loss. i just don't want it to be wrong. thanks anyway though.
21:42
Actually, if we are to have sophistication-graded tags for set-theory, then it's a bit crazy that transfinite induction belongs in elementary set theory (explicitly according to the tag excerpt). How is one supposed to tag actually elementary set stuff, I wonder?
@HenningMakholm i know. this has been puzzling to me. there is a tags chatroom. want to make a suggestion?
maybe induction should be a new tag.
@Eugene i don't see anything wrong with it as a question. i can't say i fully understand it, but if there's an error made in your question, it seems like it would be instructive for an answer to point this out, and i cannot see how down-voting is called for.
@DavidWheeler oh seriously the downvoting isn't an issue. recently i've been frequently downvoted without explanation. i'm sure there's a troll somewhere.
@Eugene i think transfinite-induction would deserve a separate tag, so as not to be confused with the ordinary kind.
@DavidWheeler i think that would be too specific
i would recommend suggesting that in the tags chatroom though.
21:44
the character of transfinite inductive proofs is often very different.
@Eugene But I don't think there is much relevant overlap between ordinary induction in $\mathbb N$ and the transfinite stuff. Formally one is a special case of the other, of course, but the questions one could ask about either are very different.
@DavidWheeler In your answer, could you edit it to include the matrix with entries from $\frac{\partial f }{\partial \Bbb{x}} h(x)$ and $\frac{\partial f }{\partial \Bbb{y}} h(x)$
@DavidWheeler martin sleziak and i are trying to promote this chatroom for tag discussions
@JonasTeuwen You're in spain with pierre now for that operator algebras conference no?
@BenjaminLim No.
@BenjaminLim I'm home since 2-3 hours.
21:46
huh?
when will pierre leave holland?
And it was not about operator algebras but about harmonic analysis.
@BenjaminLim He is in Spain, not in Holland.
sorry
I got confused with IWOTA
That is in Sydney.
@JonasTeuwen When will he return to holland?
@BenjaminLim in what part of this answer?
21:47
@BenjaminLim Somewhere in 2013.
I guess...
@JonasTeuwen Pierre is in spain for the rest of the year?
@BenjaminLim Huh?? All statements you make are boldly wrong! 8-))).
No, he will return to Canberra in a couple of weeks.
@DavidWheeler Could you include the form of the matrix for $D(f(h(x))$?
@JonasTeuwen ah ok!
give me a moment, i really despise writing matrices in latex
@JonasTeuwen so from spain he is going straight back to australia
@DavidWheeler Please
21:49
@DavidWheeler @HenningMakholm either or i created a new tag for valued fields
@BenjaminLim I don't think so.
I did not ask him.
@JonasTeuwen Where is he going after spain?
Because I would like to do a reading course with him on "analysis on manifolds"
Are you drunk?
no
I have an analysis exam on monday
Or are my messages not coming through...
21:51
any suggestions for what this should be tagged as?
i'm trying to purge the number tag.
@JonasTeuwen They are. However where is pierre heading next?
after spain?
@BenjaminLim I said: I did not ask him.
ah ok
sorry man!!
I hope you had a nice time with him!
@Eugene Good question. I think my best shot would be (arithmetic), but it's not a really good fit.
in australia?
21:56
But of course, I was not the reason he was there and he was not the reason I was there.
@BenjaminLim No, in Spain.
@HenningMakholm this one is a tough one
his wife went to spain as well?
@Eugene My galois theory lecturer spoke at a conference with Jack Morava and Kiran Kedlaya there!!
But that is as far as I will go in giving information on a public chat about somebody that did not give me permission to say such things :-).
21:57
I can't install djvu2pdf using macports.
@JonasTeuwen Nice.
@MattN :'(.
Every time I try my computer switches off.
@JonasTeuwen you can delete your comments
I think it gets too hot or something. I checked the disk, seems to be ok.
21:58
@MattN You have asked a lot of commutative algebra recently how come?
@MattN Loller? Install the macport that can limit cputime.
I hate djvu.
@BenjaminLim I'm reading AM!
how come?
@JonasTeuwen Lol.
@MattN How come the sudden burst of energy with AM??
21:59
@BenjaminLim An exam.
oh shit
when is it??
@BenjaminLim Did you ever finish the book?
It's on the 9th of August.
@BenjaminLim i don't know who those people are. =)
21:59
There was a lot of material
Indeed.
@Eugene They are pretty famous in number theory circles, witt vectors, stuff like that

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