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21:00
@MikeMiller haha, you're right.
Also, active learning with feedback is better than too much passive reading/watching.
"and some worshiped the mathematics because it provided a refuge from thought and from feeling" to quote Steinbeck even if you don't like him @Mike
You need to do lots of exercises and get feedback on your math writing.
I never heard that quote.
Or read it.
@BalarkaSen ok, tick-tock, I should leave soon to eat lunch and edit.
You guys are all great.
21:01
That's empirically false.
Indeed. It's difficult to understand something without working it out for yourself (at least it's difficult for me).
@MikeMiller I need some time to formulate it all out: I'll write and ping it to you on the garbology room along with other people
being on chat means u suck automatically
a forteriori
@TedShifrin "Some of them hated the mathematics that drove them, and some were afraid, and some worshiped the mathematics because it provided a refuge from thought and from feeling" is the full sentence, from one of the first chapters (4th or 5th I think) of The Grapes of Wrath, describing the representatives of the banks kicking the farmers out of the land
21:02
The trouble with all the "self-learning" that people on this site love to do ... is that you don't get written feedback on your writing. And without that you don't have any idea if you're actually learning.
shit man the bankers don't need refuge from thought and feeling they didn't have it in the first place
Ah, of course, @Alessandro.
@Ted Sounds like a job for computer verification to give you errors when you mess up a proof :P
@MikeMiller tell em
Do computers comprehend and criticize style, too, @Dair?
21:03
@Ted Uh... I don't think there are any linters for verification languages yet, but there are ways to do this in more conventional languages.
I imagine most computer programmers don't write with great panache.
Computers don't handle abstract concepts very well, I've found.
Computer code writing agitates me to a very unfathomable extent
LOL, that was a bit poetic, @topologicalmagician.
It makes me want to throw you in a washing machine.
but then again, those proofs are not good english prose.
but then again again, we're under the possible false prestense that english is a good language to begin with.
21:05
Sort of my main point, @Dair.
OK, we can write math in French. Fine by me.
(I'm still amused by the idea of a proof written in verse.)
Just no symbols.
lol, that made me laugh
Proofs as Poems
now that's a book I want to see.
I'll just talk to myself to clear it out: The point is the graph of groups of $A * B$ is a bipartit-ed $\Gamma(F_2)$ with vertex groups $A$ and $B$ alternately appearing. The total space, $\widetilde{K(A*B, 1)}$, is obtained from getting a $\widetilde{K(A, 1)}$ or $\widetilde{K(B, 1)}$ for each vertex and taking one-point union depending on the edge. $H \leq A * B$ acts on this graph of groups, so take the quotient graph $\Gamma(F_2)/H$, which is the underlying graph of the corresponding graph of groups whose total space is $\widetilde{K(G, 1)}/H = K(H, 1)$.
21:06
Do mathematicians ever go through a phase where they overthink things?
@AlessandroCodenotti Pinged for future use to you if needed
maybe there needs to be a proofreview site, just like there is a codereview site
Proof as Haiku ($\mathbb{Q}\unlhd\mathbb{R}$):
"Reals are abelian.
Conjugation does nothing.
Thus, $\mathbb{Q}$ is normal."
Try for more profundity in the mathematics, @Rithaniel :P
21:08
I always read $\mathbb{Q}$ as math bbq.
Thus, math bbq is normal.
Is math bbq vinegar-based or mustard-based?
Well, first, how do I measure profundity?
@TedShifrin I have been thinking about the correct notion of bundles over stratified spaces.
Also, a math bbq sounds awesome.
@Ted It's which ever base is more dense in the reals
21:10
@Rithaniel We had them once per semester in my old uni
Well, they are topological spaces, so we know what bundles are, @Balarka. Or are you thinking of varying ranks along strata? This sounds more sheafical.
yum, real numbers with bbq
i'm hungry now i haven't had lunch.
@TedShifrin Yeah, fiber varies stratum-to-stratum. I have the correct notion of vector bundles over stratified spaces down; over each stratum you have a vector bundle so that they have a "natural" extension to the closure of the stratum, and the bundles over the lower stratums "naturally" include in that extended bundle.
strata :P
You have trouble with apostrophes and plurals, so I know it's you.
OK, yeah, I've done stuff with this sheafically in the past.
21:12
It's just a big commutative diagram and obviously the right notion because we're modelling Whitney condition (a). The union of the tangent bundles to each stratum satisfies this property
@TedShifrin Oops
@TedShifrin Oh cool
I think they do something like this with constructible sheaves (they are sheaves over stratified spaces, locally constant over each stratum)
You can generalize the notion of skyscraper sheaves (which typically are concentrated on divisors).
I did this when I was studying second-order osculating spaces on surfaces in $\Bbb P^5$.
Right, constructibility comes into some intersection homology type stuff, too.
21:15
So there seems to be more "poetic" ways to write Coq proofs: stackoverflow.com/questions/14247771/…
but it seems to based off of tatic efficiency not, understandability of the proof...
So the question, @BalarkaSen, is what you can do with this!
@TedShifrin Yeah, Goresky-MacPherson's IC complex is constructible
@MikeMiller Well, I have some scattered ideas of what I want to do with these. But they seem quite natural to me.
I need to provide a summary for my (mock) research for amateur / non-technical audience
this is harder than the research itself
21:19
The problem is that I am not sure how to define a stratified fiber bundle
I look forward to hearing about them one day
Namely, how should the fibers collapse to lower dimensional fibers as you go along an arc running into a lower dimensional stratum (ideally, try to understand how the "fiber bundle" will look over an $\overline{m}$-allowable simplex wrt the lower dimensional stratum, where $\overline{m}$ is the middle perversity)
For most examples I have, they come from proper actions of smooth Lie groups on manifolds, this is not a problem because those "collapses" are modeled on the $G$-equivariant tubular neighborhood theorem
it might be interesting to study how manifolds can limit to other manifolds in the Gromov-Hausdorff sense
So that's something I have been thinking about. I have some ideas of what the right notion should be.
That's an interesting point
one common example is sphere bundles whose fiber radii drop to zero
21:25
How do I show that $\mathbb{Z_n}$ is closed? I know that $x \equiv x (mod n)$ and $y \equiv y (mod n)$ but why is x+y in $\mathbb{Z_n}$?
Over each arc it's some kind of cone, as in, a stratified object $X$ fibering over $[0, 1]$ such that over $[0, 1)$ it's the trivial $F$-bundle.
First you have to define it, @topologicalmagician.
@MikeMiller Oh that's cool
I really dislike when people say that an axiom of a group is "closure", as this leads to confusion about what a group is
"closure" is the property that defines a subgroup, not a group
For subgroups it makes sense.
Oops.
21:27
:)
I am not a total fool
I never said otherwise.
ok, I am too unproductive.
Speaking of Gromov-Hausdorff, someone is going to give a talk in my institute as part of a probability seminar very soon, on things called "graphons"
They are measurable functions $F : [0, 1]^2 \to [0, 1]$ such that $F(x, y) = F(y, x)$
Well, that reminds me of one of my favorite questions.
Think of it as a "continuous" version of an adjacency matrix
21:30
I think I gave you this question years ago, @Balarka.
Yeah and I gave you an easy example I think
I couldn't write down a formula though
If $f$ is differentiable (say) and $f(x,y)=f(y,x)$ for all $x$, must critical points/max/min occur when $x=y$?
In most calculus problems that always happens.
This is a good question for others in the room.
is it safe to say that all acyclic trees have a chromatic number of 2
So apparently graphons appear as "limits" of graphs as the number of vertices go to infinity, somehow. I think it's some Gromov-Hausdorff sense of convergence but I don't know.
Interesting.
21:32
@Rick an acyclic tree is just a tree
And yes regarding the chromatic number (apart from the trivial tree with $1$ vertex)
@ÉricoMeloSilva You have to tell me more about geometric measure theory and how it interacts with differential geometry someday
Okay, so I'm working on showing that a group with $2p$ elements is isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}/2p\mathbb{Z}$ if it's abelian or it's isomorphic to the dihedral group of the $p$-gon if it's non-abelian. I feel like it should be simple to show this, but I can't see the outline of how a proof would go. I feel like I should be paying attention to subgroups, though.
Do you know Sylow stuff?
I find it strange that an even-cycle graph can have a chromatic number of 2 when we know that it's not bipartite
Sylow stuff? Nope, haven't covered that yet.
21:44
Do you know Cauchy's theorem that there have to be elements of order $2$ and $p$ (assuming $p\ne 2$)?
Yes, I do know that one.
Do you know that the subgroup generated by the element of order $p$ must be normal?
Ah, because it's index is 2?
What books do you guys recommend for abstract algebra?
Yup, @Rithaniel. Can you go from there?
21:45
I believe so.
Also, I've been using class notes for abstract algebra. It's a pdf written out like a book with chapters and whatnot, but unfortunately, you can't buy it, topological.
yeah, because i'm taking abstract at the moment and want more examples
@topological Dummit and Foote
Dummit & Foote is intended as a graduate text
And is terrible
21:50
:(
I don't think it's terrible
:)
I'm torn apart
LOL
What text are you using in your course, @topologicalmagician?
@Ted I'll wrestle you for it
I used it fairly successfully so it might work
well it's an option anyway
21:51
You'd probably say my algebra book is terribler.
just class notes, @TedShifrin
That's not helpful ...
Dummit-Foote is an expository
Not a textbook
My favorite text is Mike Artin's, but it's quite hard.
Oh, it's a textbook. Geez, guys.
21:52
It's like the professor's teaching guide
I can't read a single thing from his linear algebra or ring theory or algebraic geometry chapters
They are bad
I admit I read homological algebra and group cohomology from it but I was already familiar with the ideas to make my way through
It's five times as long as it should be imo. The exercises are pretty good, but there are so many of them it's hard for someone to tell how to pick and choose.
Group theory is the only readable part of D-F
I read groups, rings, fields, and galois theory from it
lol
I learned from Hungerford which has terrible exercises.
and modules
21:54
Basically, there are no good books. Quit algebra. Quit math. Nothing is worth it. :D
Hungerford is sort of like Conway's complex variables book. It's "readable" and so well-liked by students. I'm not particularly fond of either.
my local fields book has STILL not arrived
But I haven't lectured out of either, either ... by design.
ordered it in December 2018
21:56
Ok, it's getting quite late and I have to wake up tomorrow for a class so I'll write my vague functional analysis questions tomorrow
It's scary that people are taking real analysis (presumably) and can't answer the question: If you write the series $\sum a_n x^{n!}$ in the form of $\sum a_k x^k$, what is the formula for $a_k$?
Night, a @Balarka.
@Rudi gratuliere :D hab grad zum ersten mal mein Tacx benutzt :)
@ÍgjøgnumMeg und wie wars?
Well, I guess I'm still a student. I like both. Conway 2 is sometimes a useful reference for me.
@Rudi hat schon spaß gemacht :) War in New York am radeln.. hahaha
21:57
@ÍgjøgnumMeg Cool!
bloß 10km zums usprobieeera
@ÍgjøgnumMeg nur nicht übertreiben - besser langsam steigern :-)
klar :) Bis nächste woche 50kg abnehmen
lol
Well, i'm going! Have a good day/night to you guys
Thanks to everyone who helped out
22:05
Night @Topologicalmagician
23:02
Problem: Suppose $f$ and $g$ are continuous functions on $[a,b]$. Show that if $f=g$ a.e. on $[a,b]$, then, in fact, $f=g$ on $[a,b]$. Proof: Let $A := \{x \in [a,b] \mid f(x) \neq g(x)\}$. Then by hypothesis $m(A)=0$. Moreover, $A$ is open. Hence, if there were a point $x \in A$, then we could choose $r > 0$ such that $(x-r, x+r) \subseteq A$. But this means $0 \neq 2r \le m(A)$, which is a contradiction. Hence $A$ is empty.
How does that sound?
23:17
@TedShifrin I ended up choosing a basis in the other space instead, but I managed to work it out. Thanks for the hint.
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