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00:11
silly @Rithaniel — trusting people here
@Rithaniel: I do not like an argument like that at all.
As Leaky suggested, I can't multiply at $4\times 5$ matrix by a vector in $\Bbb R^4$, either, but so what ... ?
I was thinking of saying he needs better friends. Both folks that don't give arguments like that, and people more trustworthy than us :P
But for such snide remarks we'd have to ban you, @MikeM.
@TedShifrin in other news I managed to prove your identity
it was fun
Wow! I had always suspected Ted was a myth.
It's certainly not mine, @Leaky. I just have taught it lots of times.
00:16
Well, I definitely trust you guys as far as math is concerned, maybe not so much in other topics. :P
But yeah, it seemed like nonsense and so I couldn't figure out where they were getting the statement from. When multiple people suggested the same argument, though . . .
Multiple people can be ignorant.
But ignorant in precisely the same way?
Apparently so.
I've seen that lots of times before.
Yeah, I imagine that they might have worked on the problem together.
@TedShifrin but hey $[X,Y]$ is legit dank
00:18
Do you know what the Lie derivative is? $\mathscr L_XY$?
would it be... $[X,Y]$?
It's conceptually very important. Interesting that it comes out the Lie bracket.
No. It's differentiating $Y$ along the flow of the vector field $X$.
I have yet to learn about flows
Sad!
@TedShifrin well, they're not a priori the same, you mean ...
I meant the definition.
00:20
imo the Lie derivative is more primordial and the Lie bracket is a [coughs] derivative
the Lie bracket is some formal Lie algebra thing ... yuck.
It's just magic that vector fields form a Lie algebra :P
Does anyone know if nLab was heavily edited within the last year? I am looking at some pages I read maybe 4 - 8 months ago and they all seem different.
there's an unfortuanate amount of magic in setting up smooth manifolds
@PrinceM boy I hope so
I am not sure how that site works though, so maybe thats normal.
wiki says a flow is a group action of $\Bbb R$ on a set $X$
not sure how relevant this is
00:23
extremely
we want a vector field that varies with time?
It doesn't have to. It's solving the differential equation $d\phi_t(p)/dt = X(\phi_t(p))$ that gives you the flow $\phi_t$. $X$ is the vector field.
so it's the trajectery of a test particle
trajectory
Yes, with tangent vector given by $X$ at the point it's at
very dynamic picture in my head
00:26
Well this conversation looks boring. No offense. Sounds science-y
@PrinceM Guess you'd better scurry back to the nLab
scurrying sounds good
Can you cook a good scurry?
I'd rather do that than get scurvy.
Chicken curry would be amazing right now.
00:28
I know someone who only seems to eat red meat. No fruit, no vegetables. Me and some colleagues wondered for a while why he doesn't get scurvy.
The secret? Eat french fries.
He should be president.
Theres a snow blizzard where I live I am stuck inside here listening you all talk about science particle
I used i,j,l,m,n,p,q,r,x and I'm wondering why I still haven't run of letters
Pretty weird that PrinceM makes these snide remarks and has stuff about algebraic geometry and commutative algebra on his profile.
Do you wanna be known as "Makes snide remarks Prince M?"
00:35
wait I thought it was common for sub-par aspiring algebraic geometers to make snide remarks about things just because they don't have any background, but play it off like the things aren't cool enough
I am just trying to fit in
While passing time throughout the snow blizzard
We cool Prince M
what's your favorite topic in algebraic geo
Since you're obsessed with the snow, I'm guessing you're in Washington state or Idaho?
Back east everyone is used to blizzards.
I am in Washington and would prefer it stop snowing
I have good friends there who are on top of the highest spot in Seattle. They tell me that it's supposed to snow more tomorrow ... or maybe that's what they said last night.
It keeps raining here. We need it but I don't like it.
00:40
yeah I am downtown Seattle
Can't the damn weathermen just do the rain once a week consistently?
Definitely not the highest spot, more like the lowest spot
It was drizzling when I drove back from teaching AoPS at noon, @MikeM.
Pretty much clear all afternoon.
@Ultradark I am pretty amateur in algebraic geometry, I am just reaching modern AG
It's going to rain for a week starting Wednesday @Ted
00:42
oh, really? I'm going to Palm Springs for the first time on the weekend. I wonder if it's gonna rain there too.
goes to look at weather report
My parents are in PS right now
@TedShifrin sorry to hear.
I figured it was about time I saw it, @MikeM.
is it going to rain in Palm Springs?
lmao, why did I ask, I can just google it.
00:45
@TedShifrin I could have done without seeing it, much less for 16 years.
Question closed as low effort.
you spent 16 years there?
do you guys like counting the number of times things are differentiable?
no
hard no
things like if $F \in C^k(M,N)$ then $DF \in C^{k-1}(TM, TN)$
00:47
@LeakyNun It's actually one of my past times.
well, that's important, @Leaky ... and even though I prefer the smooth or holomorphic category, I worked with singularities a lot.
great
if $X \in X^k(M)$ and $f \in C^l(M)$ then what is $X(f)$? :P
Oh, I had a long discussion about such things on FB with a bunch of math people. Vector fields as derivations in the $C^k$ category is very problematic. Stick with $C^\infty$.
:o rly
I somehow got roped into this crazy analysis class once and the proff tried to teach us about functions that were $\pi$ times differentiable
I told this man he was off his rocker and weak derivatives were nonsense
00:49
pseudodifferential operators are a thing
fractional calculus?
@PrinceM where $\pi$ is a uniformizer of $\Bbb Q_3$?
no, they're definitely not nonsense
well in local coordinates it is just $v^i \partial_i f$ isn't it, and then $v^i \in C^k(M)$? and $\partial_i f \in C^{l-1}(M)$?
interesting that he would start off with $\pi$...
00:50
so it should be $\min(k,l-1)$?
Haha it was actually a really cool class. It was the lead in to Sobolev spaces
They're super important. We were just discussing that yesterday.
did someone say sobolev
@Ted I was born in Palm springs and lived next door.
I'd forgotten that, @MikeM ... I think of you as somewhere in NY or something.
00:52
That's where my dad's family is from. So it fits.
@TedShifrin I dislike how often people start with this as the basic def'n.
I do equivalent definitions, others more geometric, but for diff geo that's actually pretty important.
it's to compare to algebraic geometry, I get it. but it provides miniscule intuition, and is not that useful.
Nah, I prove theorems a lot at the beginning by comparing vector fields acting on functions.
For example, why $\mathscr L_XY=[X,Y]$. :P
Well, of course one can always get away without that. But you're right.
Remember that these still give derivations. Just not all of them!
If they give the same derivation they are still equal.
Ah, good point.
00:59
The way I think is in terms of curves, so I start out with that, usually. But of course I've never taught one of these courses.
Just assisted.
(It also works for C^k and Banach.)
I don't know how well the derivation stuff extends to the Banach case. I would have to think about the Taylor expansion proof again.
I think the $C^\infty$ trick of writing $f(x)-f(0)=\sum x_ig_i(x)$ might work in the Banach case. That formula doesn't, of course.
But that's what you need to get the derivations to work.
I have to remember what goes wrong in $C^k$...
Ah, this is more subtle than I was saying.
Maybe I will think about this tonight. Maybe not.
LOL
yeah, it's not what you wrote
but my formula comes from integrating with the chain rule, so it should work.
Assuming a complex logarithm: $2-\zeta(2)=\int_0^1 \ln(x)\ln(1-x) dx$. The reason for the $\zeta(2)$ term is partly due to the indefinite integral containing polylogarithms
@TedShifrin I think I buy it.
01:11
I wasn't charging much for it.
Great! I'm still poor.
Which reminds me. I still promises you and J. a dinner for finishing ...
promised
I'd eat it. I'm not sure if he ever liked me, so he might prefer it separate. :P
@TedShifrin I seem to have computed that $\mathrm d\alpha(X,Y,Z) = X(\alpha(Y,Z)) + Y(\alpha(Z,X)) + Z(\alpha(X,Y)) - \alpha([XY],Z) - \alpha([YZ],X) - \alpha([ZX],Y)$
Well, I'm not making that many math dinners. :P
01:14
how do u eat math
For $\alpha$ a $2$-form, @Leaky?
right
That's right, except for your awful notation. Use a damn comma!
Yeah, that's right.
ROFL
and I would like to not compute the next expression lol
01:16
well, try not to do it for one $n$ at a time
I bet you wouldn't make it to 8128-manifolds
the general formula is p ez to guess from this one
I guess
I can't remember if there's a reasonable inductive proof, though.
asks Eric and Mike
asks Eric
01:18
LOL
eats shoots and leaves?
if you don't know that book, you should
prescriptivist scum
throws serial commas at Mike
wait there is a whole book based on that joke?
not quite
yes, all about serial commas
01:19
wait lmao, what is the title?
I have several other books to recommend along those lines
eats shoots and leaves
versus: eats, shoots, and leaves
@Mike Thanks.
I'm trying to determine $\int_0^1 (\ln(x)\ln(1-x))^n dx$ $n \in \Bbb Z^+$
Wow
its an integral...
01:22
I bet Jack would like this lol.
jacksoja?
@TedShifrin i recall i proved it in some notes i wrote up on forms by just computing it for a monomial using the determinant expansion
Jack D'Aurizio
ohhh .... then it needs to be on main, @Dair.
I was thinking of induction with shuffles.
@Eric
I'll put it on MAIN
01:24
@TedShifrin I don't think he did anything wrong. He didn't ping people about it, just posted it here.
i imagine u could do that but i avoid induction when i can do it by direct computation usually
That's the ideal, right? That way if we don't want to think about it, we don't.
But you're right that generically Q's will get better answers on main.
Certain people post and repost and repost.
@Mike I don't think he did anything wrong either. Tbf, I am actually surprised this chatroom does so many math problems lol. The chatrooms on codereview have little to do with codereview...
if there was no math here I wouldn't be here
so I guess some people will start talking about math less to encourage that ;)
01:26
Yup.
I won't remind y'all of the times I'm having 5 different people fire math questions at me simultaneously ....
now you can formally tell them to shush!
I can?
math is canceled
to be clear, is the formula $\mathrm d\omega(V_0, \cdots, V_k) = \sum (-1)^i V_i(\omega(\widehat{V_i})) + \sum_{i<j} (-1)^{j-i} \omega([V_i,V_j], \widehat{V_i}, \widehat{V_j})$?
Yippee.
01:29
well i hate your notation but yes
@ÉricoMeloSilva whose notation is your favourite?
@Leaky: You can't put the $\widehat{V_i}$ and leave out completely the ones that are supposed to be there. And I don't know about signs. I'm lazy.
Hmm... After listening to a seminar today about Platonic solid micelles, and noticing how the packing efficiency does not change with the number of monomers, I am starting to suspect size invariance is not the only property of infinity
nobody's. i never write this formula for k > 2 tbh lol
his sign for the first sum is right but i havent thought about the second one and im not gonna
might need to revise the models a bit...
01:31
my complaint is what Ted just said tho
will get the set theory people in later...
Eric loves to complain about Ted.
not as much as kasmir
his complaints are less specific
If Kasmir complains about Ted, that's pretty shallow, since Ted has helped him for dozens of hours.
01:32
Well that's true
Momentary complaining happens.
Rithaniel wonders why we're speaking in third person.
i do not think i have in actuality ever complained about Ted
@Rithaniel, how presumptuous of you.
That's cuz you like me, @Eric. :P
Yeah, true, could be an unrelated Ted
01:34
we basically agree a.e.
$$\mathrm d\omega(V_0, \cdots, V_n) = \sum_{i=0}^n (-1)^i V_i(\omega(V_0, \cdots, \widehat{V_i}, \cdots, V_n)) + \sum_{0 \le i < j \le n} (-1)^{j-i} \omega([V_i, V_j], V_0, \cdots, \widehat{V_i}, \cdots, \widehat{V_j}, \cdots, V_n)$$
are there any more complaints?
I think we're training Leaky well.
Aren't you missing a sign in the last stuff?
u forgot the sign in the second sum my man
damn sniped
fixed
01:38
I'm in love with differential topology
perfect combination of analysis and algebra
You haven't done any differential topology.
@MikeM: Well, this stuff is basic diff manifolds. Neither diff top nor diff geo.
I spent about 2h trying to prove that there's no isomorphism $\phi: (\Bbb R^2, +) \cong (\Bbb R, +)$ with the idea that, since $\phi(\frac{p}{q}(x,y)) = \frac{p}{q}\phi(x,y)$, playing around with limits we can get $\phi$ to be a linear mapping so obviously it can't be bijective. Nice! There is a isomorphism...
01:41
heya @Lucas. Did you see my earlier answer to your ping?
Nice L Hen
What kind if isomorphism?
@TedShifrin Yes, that's what I mean.
@MikeMiller For once we agree :P
yes, @Ted. Thank you! After some exercises with the algorithm and the spaces, they are much more natural to me. I just still don't have a geometric interpretation for them but I think you'll keep that for later :P
@Ted: group isomorphism.
01:43
I don't know man, I'm attending the course Differential Topology, so I guess it's too bad if it doesn't count as differential topology
r/gatekeeping
@Leaky: Later on you'll get to transversality and vector bundles?
(is it slow if the last thing we did is prove that $H^k_c(\Bbb R^n) = \Bbb R^{\delta_{nk}}$?
I doubt it's slow. I'd need to see an entire syllabus.
a sec
we might get to de Rham theorem
(syllabus not fixed)
@TedShifrin how's that?
before that we might talk about Morse Theory
It's basic diff manifolds. To Mike and me, diff top means transversality and degree and intersection numbers.
Morse theory counts.
01:47
so you're gatekeeping imperial lol
anyway
it's not really gatekeeping, the smooth manifolds stuff is just language stuff for various fields and doesnt include a lot of smooth manifold topology results or techniques until u get to the stuff Ted was talking about which is more rightfully called diff top
I see
yeah no I've been redditing too much
I'll just keep making references
Hi all.
01:52
@TedShifrin no offense
I'm certainly not offended.
hi anakhro
@LeakyNun r/lostredditors or... r/puns. :P
@Lucas: I don't know further geometry other than what's clearly discussed in the book.
@Ted I found a decent place for the spring quarter. Things seem like they'll be ok. Rent jumps but nothing I can't handle in the meantime.
Found it on SabbaticalHomes.com, which my advisor recommended.
I should bail to shop for dinner.
01:55
Oh, well, that's cool, @MikeM.
Ted, is there a formula for differential forms I am missing that would let me better simplify an evaluation of $\alpha\wedge d\alpha$ at $(X,Y,Z)$, $\alpha$ a 1-form?
You need the various permutations, @anakhro.
No way around that.
Generally, I try to avoid evaluating forms on vector fields whenever possible.
People who hate forms tend to do that more. :P
I was trying to include all the details of $\alpha\wedge d\alpha = 0$ iff $\ker\alpha$ integrable (on a 3-manifold) and I am stuck in either direction because I don't see how to get around evaluating it.
THat's just Frobenius.
is my formula related lol
01:58
No.
That's precisely the Frobenius condition, @anakhro.
$d\alpha\equiv 0 \pmod \alpha$ is $d\alpha\wedge\alpha = 0$.
It's Frobenius, but how. I am indeed using involutivity as my definition of integrable.
But there's a forms version of Frobenius that you should learn and use. And yes, to prove the equivalence uses the formula Leaky wants to call his own.
This is classically in every manifolds course.
Do you mean the criterion that a $d$-field $\xi$ is involutive (i.e. integrable) iff every 1-form such that $\xi \subseteq \ker\alpha$, then $d\alpha$ annihilates $\xi$ as well?
If $\xi$ is given as $\ker(\alpha_1,\dots,\alpha_j)$, then the condition is that $d\alpha_i \equiv 0\pmod{(\alpha_1,\dots,\alpha_j)}$.
what is $\ker$?
02:05
Kernel.
what is $\ker \alpha$?
The subspace annihilated by the various $\alpha$ (in my case).
The ideal is the annihilator of the distribution.
@TedShifrin is "annihilated" a common phrasing in this context? It's a pretty funny word lmao
it sure is
It's a common phrase in lots of places in math.
Especially algebra.
02:07
Yes. I made some reference to that with you earlier with dual spaces replacing the linear algebra with inner products.
Annhiliator is all the things that kill the stuff off.
Perfectly reasonable term.
@TedShifrin I mean that you will probably discuss the geometry after the exercises. :P
@TedShifrin And here you are defining modulo as "modulo $\wedge \alpha_i$"?
no, modulo the ideal
So you can write $d\alpha_i$ as a linear combination of things wedged with all the $\alpha_k$.
Ah, I see.
My classes start on feb 27 but I'm studying like... from 10am to 11pm. I'm not sure if it's a good bet - it's interesting and makes me feel like "almost in uni", but maybe I'll get so tired I won't be excited to be there. I don't know...
02:12
I have been trying to use that $d\alpha$ also annihilates the kernel of $\alpha$.
so we're looking at the exterior algebra?
That translates into what I said, @anakhro. Work it out.
But you are insisting I have to go ahead and expand out $\alpha\wedge d\alpha$?
Or do I not have to get that dirty?
If you couldn't write $d\alpha_i$ as I said, that wouldn't happen.
Yikes, @Lucas, that's ridiculous.
Oh definitely, Ted. I get that from $d\alpha(X,Y) = X(\alpha(Y)) - Y(\alpha(X)) - \alpha([X,Y])$, though
02:14
Yes, you should use that.
So integrability implies the right is 0.
Right.
That's why I said Leaky would be happy you used "his" formula.
He verified it today.
Oh nice! congrats leaky on the discovery of the century!
LOL
Bye for now....
Bye!
02:16
Bye. :)
I'm gonna sleep too.. cya, boyz.
I sort of want to take a frame {X,Y} of $\xi = \ker\alpha$ locally then apply $\alpha\wedge d\alpha$ to $(X,Y,Z)$, with Z being an extension of a vector not annihilated by $\alpha$ to a vector field.
But then that's where I ran into my problem of evaluation.
Makes me feel like I have a huge gap in my knowledge of differential forms.
I could do this if I was evaluating the wedge of three 1-forms... but a 1-form and a 2-form? Is there a formula for this similar to the $(\alpha_1\wedge\alpha_2)(X,Y) = \alpha_1(X)\alpha_2(Y) - \alpha_1(Y)\alpha_2(X)$?
yes there is
let $S(k,l)$ be the permutations $\sigma \in S_{k+l}$ such that $\sigma(1)<\cdots<\sigma(k)$ and $\sigma(k+1)<\cdots<\sigma(k+l)$
then $(\alpha \land \beta)(X_1, \cdots, X_{k+l}) = \sum_{\sigma \in S(k,l)} (-1)^{\operatorname{sgn}(\sigma)} \alpha(X_{\sigma(1)}, \cdots, X_{\sigma(k)}) \beta(X_{\sigma(k+1)}, \cdots, X_{\sigma(k+l)})$
Oh it's just a permutation shuffle in general?
so $(\alpha \land \beta)(X,Y,Z) = \alpha(X) \beta(Y,Z) - \alpha(Y) \beta(X,Z) + \alpha(Z) \beta(X,Y)$
@anakhro so that each component is still increasing
this is related to the determinant expansion formulas
Yeah
So I think my old proof works.
Because then you have: $(\alpha\wedge d\alpha)(X,Y,Z) = \alpha(X)d\alpha(Y,Z) - \alpha(Y)d\alpha(X,Z) + \alpha(Z)d\alpha(X,Y) = 0$.
02:26
this looks like Jacobi identity
And then conversely, if $\alpha\wedge d\alpha = 0$, then we have that if $X,Y$ are again in $\xi$, then $d\alpha(X,Y) = -\alpha([X,Y])$, and thus:
$$0 = (\alpha\wedge d\alpha)(X,Y,Z) = \alpha(X)d\alpha(Y,Z) - \alpha(Y)d\alpha(X,Z) + \alpha(Z)d\alpha(X,Y) = \alpha(Z)d\alpha(X,Y) = -\alpha(Z)d\alpha([X,Y]),$$
where $\alpha(Z)\neq 0$.
And then bingo, it's integrable.
Thanks @LeakyNun!
@anakhro great
Now to prove it for all $n$
what does integrable mean?
Have you done ODEs before?
02:34
a little bit
You know the phase space diagrams?
it's just a vector field right
Basically.
The phase curves are your "integral curves", which are the solutions to the ODE inherent to the vector field.
You "integrate" the vector field to a 1-dimensional submanifold called an integral curve.
But in the theory of ODEs you have the rather mundane property that every ODE admits a (maximal) solution, and moreover it is unique given a point on it.
02:36
indeed
So it turns out every vector field is "integrable".
@Ted: one more typo. Page 141, example 2, in the gray box you write a linear combination as $c_1\mathbf{v_1} + c_2\mathbf{v_2} + \dots + cc_k\mathbf{v_k}$, where this $c$ is not mentioned at all.
@KasmirKhaan goddåg, hur är du
@LeakyNun do you know what the tangent bundle is?
02:39
So a $d$-field on $M$ is a rank $d$ subbundle of $TM$.
And we a $d$-field $\eta$ is integrable if for each point $p\in M$, there exists a $d$-submanifold $I\subseteq M$ such that for each $q\in I$:
$$T_qI = \eta_q.$$
Analogously to our vector fields.
Except here, it's not always the case that they are integrable, for $d>1$.
What classes did you guys take as undergrads?
@DerekAdams maybe it would be easier if you specified a year.
02:54
@LeakyNun pretty interesting stuff
And pretty natural in some cases.
are there simple examples of non-integrable d-fields?
Yeah, so it's fairly easy to come up with a few.
Consider $\mathbb R^3$ with $\xi := \ker(dz - y\,dx)$
Remember yesterday when I got you to solve for this one?
@DerekAdams
@anakhro senior year of undergraduate
(sorry for the premature message)
02:58
I took a differential geometry course, a grad algebra course, Lie algebras, Lie groups, cryptography, an undergrad thesis (in symplectic geometry), history of math, functional analysis, lambda calculus & proof theory, and combinatorics.
03:13
That's quite the load for a year. Was this an American school?
Canada.
It's 5 courses/semester.
So two semesters. 4 months each, about.
3hr lecture time/week per class.
Not so bad, you'd find.
2 hours ago, by Ultradark
I'm trying to determine $\int_0^1 (\ln(x)\ln(1-x))^n dx$ $n \in \Bbb Z^+$
Orbit of ln x under the action of $\int $ is unstable
conclusion: This is really screwy to compute
actually... $\int^{(m)} \ln x d^mx$ has interesting patterns:
03:28
@anakhro so I compute $(\mathrm dz-y~\mathrm dx) \land \mathrm d(\mathrm dz-y~\mathrm dx) = -(\mathrm dz-y~\mathrm dx) \land (\mathrm dy \land \mathrm dx) = \mathrm dx \land \mathrm dy \land \mathrm dz \ne 0$?
ln x, x (ln x - 1), 1/4 x^2 (2 \ln x - 3), 1/36 x^3 (6 ln x - 3), ...
@LeakyNun exactly!
So it's non-integrable.
so there's actually a stable pattern in the iterated integrand of ln x with the general form:
$$\int^{(n)} \ln x d^n x = Ax^m (B \ln x - C)$$
And therefore, the orbit of $\ln x$ under the action of $\int$ and $D$ are:
$$\frac{1}{x^n} \cdots Ax^m (B\ln x - C)$$
That is, it belongs to two equivalence classes
Meanwhile, it is pretty f888ed to compute $\int^{(n)} (\ln x)^m d^n x$
because gammas started to pop up
it is also pretty f888ed when trying to compute $\int \prod_{n} \ln (x-c_n) dx$ because just n=2 alone, the integrand is one big scary expression of logs that it is almost impossible to look for a pattern
There's however, some patterns can be deduced for integrals like:
$$\int^{(n)} x^p\text{Li}_m(x) d^nx$$
we will continue this discussion in the Star Wars Room

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