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00:00
1 hour ago, by user193319
Not sure. That's why I came to the chatroom. Does the answer involve sophisticated algebraic topology?
Algebraic topology has reputation issues
Too many claims it will do whatever it is not
can entropy be measured with $H(x)=\ln(x) \ln(1-x)$
00:16
Depends on what you know about entropy
Also misread the $\not\exists $ page as "the question was violently removed by the user" and I go O_O
I know some things about entropy
entropy functions are concave
and entropy functions have the property of additivity
01:14
0
Q: If $\vec{\nabla} \times \langle P,Q,Q \rangle=\vec{0}$ iff $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is exact differential form.

Math geekIf $\vec{\nabla} \times \langle P,Q,R\rangle=\vec{0}$ iff $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is an exact differential form. My attempt:- If $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is an exact differential form. Then there exists $U(x,y,z): dU=Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$. From the mixed partial theorem, It is easy to prove that $curl \langle P,Q, R\rangle=...

I don't understand what hello world do in his eighth line.
$$\phi_y =Q - \frac{\partial }{\partial y}\int Pdx.$$
Then he integrated with respect to $y$
$$\phi (y,z) = \int Q(x,y,z)dy-\int \frac{\partial }{\partial t}\left(\int P(x,y,z)dx\right)dt + h(z).$$
How this term $\frac{\partial }{\partial t}$ comes in the expression?
When we partially differentiate w.r.t $y$ again integrating. the answer should be like $$\phi_y =\int Q dy - \int Pdx+h(z).$$. Right?
Why did he use variable $t$?
 
3 hours later…
vzn
vzn
05:19
@CaptainAmerica16 fractals rock! =D coincidentally was just musing on them myself! vzn1.wordpress.com/2019/01/08/collatz-mod3
@vzn Nice :D I don't know much about fractals in terms of computer science.
05:46
@vzn lol looks like i'm not the only one doing fractals and collatz. (see: codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/203764/… )
Oh wow, lol
06:19
When are two cycles (in the same homology class) isotopic?
Is that simple to answer this?
06:36
suppose I have a function f: R->R and I have worked out a taylor serie $\sum_0^\infty \frac{f^{(k)}(a)}{k!} (x-a)^k$ for it. And I also figured out (for example by the root test) that this serie converges for all x in (a-R,a+R) does this immediately imply that this serie converges to f in (a-R,a+R) or do I still need to check that directly?
@Derso If there were, wouldn't that mean there's a simple description of $\pi_n(X)$ for all $n$ and $X$?
Finding homotopy groups, even of spheres, is notoriously hard
@AkivaWeinberger How are you directly inferring that? Two nonhomotopic maps $S^n \to X$ need not represent the same homology class.
Maps from higher dimensional spheres to lower dimensional spheres do, though, so that is a valid point.
06:52
@BalarkaSen All maps $S^n\to S^m$, $n\ne m$, are in the same homology class
Your comment about homotopy groups of spheres is correct. The previous one is false.
If $X$ is $(n-1)$-connected, eg, two maps $S^n \to X$ are homotopic iff homologous.
In any case Dereso seem to be asking a much stronger question: If you have two cycles with embedded manifold representative which are in the same homology class, when are they isotopic?
First of all you want the embedded representatives to be diffeomorphic submanifolds.
Use $S^n\times\Bbb R^k$ for sufficiently large $k$
so that our nontrivial elements of $\pi_m(S^n)$ can be represented by submanifolds
(Incidentally - do homotopy groups of spheres change when we go from the topological category to the smooth one? I'm guessing/hoping no)
It does not.
Continuous maps can be approximated by smooth maps
@AkivaWeinberger Careful. Why need two nontrivial elements be represented by diffeomorphic submanifolds?
In general you'll get a immersed $S^m$ in $S^n \times \Bbb R^k$ representing your homotopy class
To make it an embedding you have to desingularize it: that changes topology
Maybe if $k$ is large then you can make it an embedded $S^m$ by "lifting the branches at the immersion points in different directions"
07:06
Yeah you should be able to
Seems right.
Cool
Throw Rs at it until it yields
I already know that the nontrivial class of $S^3\to S^2\times\Bbb R^3$ can be embedded.
I think that's right, anyway
Yeah
while $S^3\to S^2\times\Bbb R^2$ can't
Look at $\Bbb{CP}^1 \subset \Bbb{CP}^2$. The boundary of it's tubular neighborhood is an $S^3$ which projects to $\Bbb{CP}^1$ by the Hopf map. The tubular neighborhood is $O(1)$ over $\Bbb{CP}^1$, and $O(1) \oplus O(1)$ is the tangent bundle of $S^2$, which is stably trivial. So I can definitely write down an embedding $S^3 \to S^2 \times \Bbb R^k$ for some $k$ representing the Hopf map.
Not sure about 3
Ah, got it. Look at the unit tangent bundle in $TS^2$, which is an $\Bbb{RP}^3$ projecting to $S^2$. This map $\Bbb{RP}^3 \to S^2$ is the Hopf map quotiented by $\Bbb Z_2$. But $TS^2 \oplus \underline{\Bbb R} = S^2 \times \Bbb R^3$.
So you get an embedded $\Bbb{RP}^3$ in $S^2 \times \Bbb R^3$ which projects to $S^2$ by quotient of the Hopf map by $\Bbb Z_2$.
Some jugglary now probably gives the Hopf map
2lazy2carryitout
08:06
What's $TS^2 \oplus \underline{\Bbb R}$?
@BalarkaSen
@AkivaWeinberger that would be $S^2 \times \Bbb R^3$ :p
*visible anger*
By the way, fun fact, when you go past 100 tabs, Chrome for mobile stops displaying the number of tabs and just has ":)"
(Bottom right)
(I'll go charge my phone)
08:23
How did you get latex in chat to work on the mobile version of Chrome? @AkivaWeinberger
@AlessandroCodenotti I used pastebin 'cause it's too long to fit in a message, but you make a bookmark with that^ as the link
(The text in the pastebin, not the pastebin link itself)
Hi chat
@LeakyNun Yo leaky !
can you take a look at this question
08:40
hi
Let H be a subgroup of G, let f : G--> H be a hom whose restriction to H is the identity map
my question is , how does this even work ? G---> H ?
@KasmirKhaan The same way as usual
@TobiasKildetoft Hi Tobias !
is H is a subgroup of G
how can we embedd G in H
nobody said embed
and the map is the identity map, could this be a typo in the question ?
I meant, how can we get a map from G--> H , being the identity map
if G is not equal to H
elements of G will make no where
i mean element of G \ H
G minus H
08:44
it is only meant to be the identity map on elements of $H$
aha
and where do the other element map to ?
Try for example the map $C_2\times C_2\to C_2$ given by $(x,y)\mapsto x$.
@TobiasKildetoft well...
$C_2$ is not really a subgroup of $C_2 \times C_2$ is it
exactly =p
Sure it is, as long as we agree to abuse notation in useful ways
08:46
well he meant $C_2 \times C_2 \to C_2 \times \{e\}$ sending $(x,y) \mapsto (x,e)$ @KasmirKhaan
hmm okay make sense that way
the question is phrased very bad
no it isn't
@AkivaWeinberger I tried that already but it's not working for me
And you tried clicking on the bookmark while you're viewing this page?
@AkivaWeinberger is it just the usual bookmark?
08:52
(You can get to bookmarks by the "…" button on the bottom-right of the screen)
@TobiasKildetoft Yeah
Doesn't work on my mobile either
Even at 3AM there are nerds
How's it going guys?
(also, your chrome looks really weird compared to mine)
@Daminark it's 09:53 here
There's an update that happened not too long ago
(and I'm not fond of it but it is what it is)
08:53
Leaky ples we all know that CST is the correct time zone
But that seems to have moved all the menus and stuff to the bottom?
I think to make a bookmark you have to make a bookmark to a regular page first, and then edit it
@TobiasKildetoft Yeah
Yeah my phone has stuff on the bottom as well, and it's fairly new
Well, I know an update I will be postponing for as long as I can
08:54
@Daminark Above "find in page" does it say "bookmark" with an icon of a star with a plus sign in it next to it?
That should make the current page into a bookmark
and then it lets you edit the bookmark
@TobiasKildetoft btw Tobias, how is S_3 the product of 2 subgroups of order 2 and 3 , and only one of them is normal ?
@KasmirKhaan it isn't
the theorem in my book said that they both need to be normal
@LeakyNun why it isint ?
That's what it looks like for me
08:57
Oh never mind yours looks different than mine
How do you make the current page into a bookmark on that?
At the bottom of that menu there's a star
@KasmirKhaan because any group of order 2 is C2 and any group of order 3 is C3 and C2xC3 is C6 not S3
@Daminark What happens when you press it
Makes a bookmark?
@LeakyNun imeant this , HK not HxK
H= < (12)> and K = <(123)> for example
well by counting you can establish it
the theorem is that if H and K are normal then HK is a subgroup
there's no converse to it
08:59
Yup, and for you, if you download a pdf or something, do you see that little thing at the bottom of the screen saying "Downloaded -file-" and with a button to the right allowing you to open it? Well, when I tap the star it says "Bookmark created" at the bottom and there's a button to edit
(It only displays for a few seconds)
@LeakyNun we only need one of them to be normal to be subgroup
@LeakyNun if both of them are normal we have a normal subgroup
Also if you are on a bookmarked page that star becomes blue, tapping that will allow you to edit the bookmark
your point being?
Weird, that's different from how it works on iOS
So edit it to the link from before
my point is , it might be nessarly condition not sufficent
that if H and K are subgroups
09:00
@Daminark When I open a PDF it gives me the option to open it in the iBooks app
st their intersection is trivial and HK = G
By the way, I heard that $\langle a,b\mid a^4=b^5,aba=bab\rangle$ is the trivial group. Why?
and HK= KH
then we have an isomorphism HK with G
it does seem to work in S_3 without satisfying normality of both subgroups
@AkivaWeinberger because some reduction reduces a and b to the identity?
I mean, I don't think that theorem could carry much value
@KasmirKhaan nobody said it's an iff
okay thanks @LeakyNun
09:04
@LeakyNun Right yes but what reduction
Oh wait I think I see it
@AkivaWeinberger yes I had to do that
And I clicked the bookmark while on this page
$(ba)b(ba)^{-1}=baba^{-1}b^{-1}=abaa^{-1}b^{-1}=a$
Ah so two conjugate elements have orders dividing 4 and 5
So $a$ and $b$ are conjugates
Clever
09:08
Hm wait actually we don't have $a^4=b^5=e$, we just have $a^4=b^5$
Oh right
Uh I mean
$a^4 = (ba)b^4(ba)^{-1} = b^5$, so $b^4$ and $b^5$ are conjugate
ab^4 = b^5 *a
that is all what you need
If we know the group is finite I think that should take care of things because of order coprimality I think?
a^4 = b^4 !
from that we get that a and b can only have order 1
ie they are both the identity
Wait I don't see why what you said is true
First off, where does $ab^4 = b^5a$ come from?
Also @Akiva was there a particular context for this group or was it just lol memes?
09:19
It was something about a group that was hard to prove was trivial
Like, there's a certain set of operations you can do to a group presentation that don't change the group, and it's conjectured that you can't get from this presentation to the normal presentation of the identity group using those operations
a^4ba = b^6a
multiplying by ba on the right
then reducing the left side using the rule aba = bab
replace each aba on the left with bab
bab^4 = b^6 a
cancel b on the both sides
ab^4 = b^5 a
but b^5 = a^4
ab^4 = a^5
hence b^4 = a^4
now a^4 = b^4 = b^5
@AkivaWeinberger It's well-known that the word problem is undecidable
@KasmirKhaan How did you get from a^4ba to bab^4?
2
@LeakyNun Yes but this is only half of the word problem
If you could get from any presentation of the trivial group to the usual one using those operations, then it doesn't mean the word problem is decidable, because
you could have an algorithm that methodically does all of the operations until it reduces it,
and if it's a trivial group then it would eventually halt,
but if it's not a trivial group, you'd never know when to stop
I see
it's Δ1 vs Σ1
Oh I get it @KasmirKhaan
2
aaaaba=aaabab=aababb=ababbb=babbbb
@LeakyNun I don't remember exactly what those operations are though
09:34
@AkivaWeinberger yes !
Oh I think it was specifically about "balanced" presentations where there's the same number of generators as relations
Found it
@KasmirKhaan Well done
3
@AkivaWeinberger thanks Akiva ! I was just lucky =p
Just say "Thanks"
2
okay thanks
@Daminark I'm very curious what sort of meme would involve a group theory problem
09:54
user image
2
Do geometric group theory memes count?
10:10
2
Q: Have I correctly proved that $\lim_{||(x,y)||\to\infty}\frac1{y-x}\int_x^y\exp(-1/|t|)dt$ equals $1$?

LearnerI should prove that, as long as $y\ne x$, $$f(x,y)=\frac1{y-x}\int_x^y\exp(-1/|t|)dt\longrightarrow1 \ \text{as $||(x,y)||\to\infty$}$$ and I would like to do it without $\varepsilon-\delta$ reasoning. My idea was to let $h=y-x$, and then separately consider the cases $|h|\to\infty$ and $|h|\not\...

Can anyone tell me if my proof is correct?
10:31
does this follow directly from Mertens' theorem?
i.e. if two series converge to A and B respectively and either one of them absolutely converges then their Cauchy product converges to AB
@famesyasd I think so
@AkivaWeinberger Sir?
10:54
Yes?
Oh hold on
What's $\|(x,y)\|$? @Learner
@Learner I think when you do L'Hopital, you treat $x$ as if it's a constant with respect to $h$, even though $h$ depends on $x$
11:15
@AkivaWeinberger Thank you for your feedback! I see, you're right... is there a way I can salvage that approach? Some helpful theorem?
As in, something that guarantees that in this case no harm is done when one uses L'Hopital
@Akiva $||(x,y)||$ is the norm of $(x,y)$
@Akiva ?
I dunno
Hm, what happens if $x=0$ and $y\to\infty$?
$\displaystyle\frac1y\int_0^ye^{-\frac1{|t|}}dt$
Why does this go to 1?
In that case you can apply L'Hopital
So that $\displaystyle \lim_{y\to\infty}\frac1y\int_0^ye^{-\frac1{|t|}}dt=\lim_{y\to\infty}e^{-\frac1{|‌​y|}}=1$
12:15
Suppose $Q\in M_{3\times3}(\Bbb R)$ is a matrix of rank 2. Let $T:M_{3\times3}(\Bbb R)\to M_{3\times3}(\Bbb R)$ be the linear transformation defined by $T(P)=QP$. The the rank of $T$ is .....
I thought of forming matrix but it seems to be of 9*9 dimension
and question is of two marks only.
Please help
How do I compute the projection/closet vector to a subset? If it helps, I am working in $\Bbb{R}^2$, but I would like formalue in terms of norms and inner products, if possible.
For context, I am trying to prove that the figure eight is a deformation retract of the doubly punctured plane. And it is annoying that everything hinges on these annoyingly simple question.
How to divide the polynomial $x^2+xy+y^2$ by $x+y$? Since it has two variables it find it confusing. Should I start multiplying the divisor by x or by y?
Somebody please help
13:11
@user629353 I don't think you can
afterall, $\Bbb C[X,Y]$ isn't a Euclidean domain
@LeakyNun Well, once you fix a term order, you can do it
but...
@user629353 At most you can say $\tfrac{x^2+xy+y^2}{x+y}=x+y-\tfrac{xy}{x+y}$
@LeakyNun You then get a remainder that is smaller in the term order (but the term order need not give you an euclidean function)
Actually this (ibb.co/mqbkjDY) is my working. I am getting a non-terminating expression. Is it wrong?
13:22
@user629353 Are you familiar with term orderings?
What is that?
more or less what you need to choose to get a well-defined quotient and remainder when doing division of polynomials with more than one variable
(technically you also use one for a single variable, but there you have just one choice)
Why do you need to do this division?
@TobiasKildetoft what does "more or less what you need to choose" mean
@user629353 It means that this thing is (more or less) the thing you need. I.e. there might also be some other thing you could use, but it would be essentially the same.
Is there any way to do
@TobiasKildetoft can you do it in a proper way
13:38
Hi, if a fix an element of a set by saying let's $a\in A$, can I use it later when defining a set like $B=\{c|P(c)=a\}$? My concern is that $a$ is probably not in the scope of the set generator.
I mean, $a$ is a free variable in that definition, so can be changed to anything.
@TobiasKildetoft "two numbers divided to yeild irrational quantity, then one of them must be irrational" is the case also with polynomials
Hi chat.
13:59
Hi @LucasHenrique
@AbdullahUYU Informally, yes.
Can somebody answer to mine
Usually when I pick some fixed, generic $a$, either I construct something based on this generic $a$ or I say a general fact about any element. So if you were to state this more rigorously, either you construct a set of objects based on every $a$ or you start a formula like $\forall a(a \in A \implies \dots)$
@user629353 The question was already answered. You can't divide like in integers or 1-variable polynomials.
This because $\Bbb C[X, Y]$ is not an Euclidean domain, as @Leaky pointed out.
And, the same way he told you, you can say at most $\tfrac{x^2+xy+y^2}{x+y}=x+y-\tfrac{xy}{x+y}$.
3
A: Is $F[x,y]$ a Euclidean Domain?

carmichael561Every Euclidean domain is a principal ideal domain, but the ideal $(x,y)$ in $F[x,y]$ is not principal.

Yes, I think that's fair. There has to be a set theoritic way of clearly stating it.
@user629353 Informally speaking, the main reason is that we can't establish a criterion to say where the division algorithm must stop. Your own example illustrates this specific case. How do we divide $xy$ by $x+y$? The degree of the "remainder" is, in fact, greater than the dividend's!
14:16
@LucasHenrique sorry, but I am unfamiliar with abstract algebra
or it's related topics
As you send in above Euclidean domain example
@AbdullahUYU, yup. Usually on metric spaces, we write stuff like "fix some $a$ neighboring $x$. Then either ... blah blah blah *... so the possibilities are ... *blah blah ... Now pick every neighbor of $x$. Then at least one is ...". If you were to do this rigorously, you'd have a universal quantifier and then you'd pick the neighborhood of $x$ and use the general fact to get a contradiction, etc...
By the same way, you can get a generic structure based on each arbitrary $a$, like the set of all the balls around each element of a metric space. You could state a lot of things about this "specific" but what you're really doing is creating a set (or a class) with such structure for each of the elements.
@user629353 to understand deeply (with a proof), you must know some ring theory, but you may trust me: unfortunately (well, at least I like Euclidean domains :p), $\Bbb C[x,y]$ doesn't have a well-defined division algorithm for all its elements. The case you sent us is such example. You can't divide "more" because you can't really tell when to stop.
You might want to read my first reply again. The last part says it (the degree part)
Also, try to write $x^2 + xy + y^2 = (x+y)q(x,y) + r(x,y)$, with $deg r < deg (x+y) = 1$.
14:32
@LucasHenrique so the polynomial long division process is for single variable polynomials only.
Thanks
You're welcome. :)
15:06
just posted the following question on main:
0
Q: What is the surface area of the 3-dimensional elliptope?

SemiclassicalThe $n$-elliptope is defined as the set of $n$-by-$n$ correlation matrices; that is, the set of $n$-by-$n$ symmetric positive-defined matrices with ones on the diagonal. Such matrices are parametrized by their $n(n-1)/2$ upper off-diagonal elements. In the case of $n=3$, this yields the 3-ellipto...

working on adding my own attempt at the moment as well
@AkivaWeinberger Direct sum of tangent bundle of $S^2$ with the trivial line bundle on $S^2$.
15:19
@Semi Dont't know much about you asked but is it normal that the volume of somthing can be expressed as some multiple of $\pi^2$?
That is a bit funny, isn't it.
@AbdullahUYU the linked question has the calculations for that, so you can verify it for yourself
Yeah, coming from there.
But nonetheless it is funny that the answer comes out so simply.
Hi guys
is there something that can be done to a 3x3 upper triangular matrix
that sends the entry 12 and 23 to 0
leaving 13 unchanged?
i have that the kernel = the 3x3 matrix identity exept that the entry 13 can be anything
trying to find a map with such kernel from the upper triangular matrices to G' with that as a kernel
15:35
That should be relatively easy with row operations, right?
R2-R3(23)/(33) followed by R1-R2(12)/(22)? If that makes sense.
15:50
@Ted: here you use $f(t) = ||x - ty||$, and its motivation is clear. However, IIRC in your book you work with $\frac{x}{||x||}$ and $\frac{y}{||y||}$ and the module of their difference (you've used that they're greater of equal to 0). What's the geometric interpretation of this construction? I can understand why you'd use same norms, i.e, scaling them to the same circumference... but it looks like you don't use this property. Where this idea this come from?
16:40
For a cointinuous map, we know it is for every $\epsilon>0,\text{there is a \math{\delta}},\mid f(x)-f(c) \mid<\epsilon \forall x, \mid x-c \mid<\delta$. If $\epsilon \rightarrow 0$, does it has to be $\delta \rightarrow 0$?
No right? because I can take a constant function
Pig
Pig
you are right
continuity only requires existence of such $\delta$ - in many cases they are supposed to be "small", but it doesn't have to be, e.g. the constant function you mentioned
and so in particular even if $\epsilon \to 0$, it's entirely possible for $\delta$ to stay pretty wide. Strictly speaking though, constant function is the only counterexample to this
@LucasHenrique In the lectures, I was trying to tie in calculus, of course, so minimizing $f(t)$ was natural (of course, we don't really need calculus for that). The idea for the other proof is simple: We know that $\|z\|\ge 0$ for any vector $z$ and the norm is $0$ ONLY for $z=0$. For Cauchy-Schwarz we know that equality will hold only when $x$ and $y$ are positive scalar multiples of one another, which means that $x/\|x\|=y/\|y\|$. So we consider $z$ to be their difference.
Hi @Piggy.
Pig
Pig
hey @Ted
Hello @Eric @Leaky
Pig
Pig
16:53
heya
0
Q: If $\vec{\nabla} \times \langle P,Q,Q \rangle=\vec{0}$ iff $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is exact differential form.

Math geekIf $\vec{\nabla} \times \langle P,Q,R\rangle=\vec{0}$ iff $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is an exact differential form. My attempt:- If $Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$ is an exact differential form. Then there exists $U(x,y,z): dU=Pdx+Qdy+Rdz$. From the mixed partial theorem, It is easy to prove that $curl \langle P,Q, R\rangle=...

I don't understand what hello world do in his eighth line.
$$\phi_y =Q - \frac{\partial }{\partial y}\int Pdx.$$
Then he integrated with respect to $y$
$$\phi (y,z) = \int Q(x,y,z)dy-\int \frac{\partial }{\partial t}\left(\int P(x,y,z)dx\right)dt + h(z).$$
How this term $\frac{\partial }{\partial t}$ comes in the expression?
When we partially differentiate w.r.t $y$ again integrating. the answer should be like $$\phi_y =\int Q dy - \int Pdx+h(z).$$. Right?
Why did he use variable $t$?
did he do wrong calculation?

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