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20:00
So put infinity instead of $N$, @Adam.
I know that it's equivalent to any loop being able to be contracted to a point, and that's the fact I've been trying to use.
@TedShifrin okay. Shape between y^{2}=(6-6*x^{3})*e^{7x} and x= - \frac{20}{7} I know V(x) is supposed to be \pi\int_{x1}^{x2}f^{2}(x)dx
if you already know the words can you just tell me?
Do you know fundamental group? Do you know vector calculus to use? What are you using? @Rithaniel
f latex....
20:01
@TedShifrin You can use vector calculus to show that it's not simply connected?
What do you mean words, @Adam? You want the product rule for limits to fail?
Yes @Perturbative
Huh didn't even know that :P
OK, @RandoHinn: So you're looking at the region above the $x$-axis and below that crazy $y^2=6(1-x^3)e^{7x}$ and spinning it about the $x$-axis, so, yes, it's what you said if you fill in the stuff.
@RandoHinn: What are the $x$ limits and what is $f$?
Am I correct in believing I have to find $\pi\int(6-6*x^{3})*e^{7x}$ twice, once for x=1 and once for x = -20/7 ?
How the hell do you properly get latex to work...
That makes no sense.
20:03
when sending
You need dollar signs on both sides.
ah
much better
Leave out the asterisks.
What do you mean twice? You need limits on your integral. What should those limits be?
and subtract the x=1 result from the x= -20/7 result
You're talking about the fundamental theorem of calculus. First you should set the problem up as an integral from $a$ to $b$.
20:04
-20/7 and 1 ? -20/7 is given by the line, and the function will not go over 1
Yeah, and then I'm asked an indefinite integral for the volume of the outer body....
Right. Those are the $x$-limits. OK.
I know the fundamental group, don't know how to apply vector calculus here, but have been introduced to it, and I'm trying to use an equivalent trait to simple connectedness (specifically the fact that, in a simply connected space, a loop can be contracted to a point) and general topological traits to prove it.
@TedShifrin I just want the terminology most relevant to what I just stated mathematically
@Rithaniel: If you know the fundamental group, then it's what Perturb said. You can see that the fundamental group is isomorphic to $\pi_1(S^1)$.
@Adam: Then it's what I said up there.
An application of Newton-Leibniz should do the trick, then?
20:06
Huh?
@TedShifrin what was it you said ted I cant see anything
(I suppose I might be being a little generous when I say I know the fundamental group. We just finished our introduction to the topic during class today. About 6 hours ago.)
Integral at the upper limit - integral at the lower limit
@TedShifrin Let me recall your proof: Give $M$ a Riemannian metric, then look at $\text{grad}\, f : M \to TM$. Make this transverse to the zero section to get $X : M \to TM$ such that $X \pitchfork 0$. Being conservative is a closed condition, so $X = \text{grad} g$ for some $g : M \to \Bbb R$. Since $X$ is transverse to the zero section at the critical points of $g$/zeros of $X$, you argue that $g$ has nondegenerate Hessian there.
20:08
or well, the antiderivative at the upper limit - antiderivative at the lower
That's the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus, @RandoHinn.
I'll try and apply the sucker, then
@Balarka: WTH ... you don't need the metric. Just work with the cotangent bundle and the zero section.
@Esh ok so what adjective do we use to refer to arithmetic functions for which the product rule fails in the infinite limit @TedShifrin
I don't know a word, @Adam.
Do you know an example of what you're talking about?
20:10
@TedShifrin Oh, so you just work with $df : M \to T^*M$, and do the same argument I said. That's just dual to what I said though, so it's not very unreasonable. :)
I like thinking in terms of vector fields
Well, the homework I gave years ago was for vector fields, because we didn't have the cotangent bundle early on. But it's just the transversality theorem to say most perturbations will give you transversality to the zero section (and yes, you have to check that means Morse).
@TedShifrin i know it's very stupid, but for example in the caso $n=2$, $a_2=1$ we have then that $(y^2-x^2)=(y-x)\cap(y+x)$, and the variety associated is a pair of lines in $k^2$, which becomes two in points in the projective space
Note that you are using more than simple transversality. Saying that transverse-to-zero sections are closed in the space of sections of a vector bundle is a baby Thom transversality result
Sure, @Balarka. Transversality homotopy theorem or whatever you want.
@christmas_light: Right. You get $[1,\pm 1]$.
hmm $\int(6-6*x^{3})*e^{7x}$ will be hideous though
20:13
First of all, factor out the darned 6.
But, yes, you need integration by parts.
OK, I'm gone for now.
See you!
that's ridiculous and absurd it's a highly non trivial subject
That'd be $6\int(1-x^{3})e^{7x}$
then
oh and look, a question specifically on this subject that has already been answered, incorrectly, accepted and voted up multiple times math.stackexchange.com/questions/1073541/…
hey I know lets t bag dr suess, great idea, ill hold him down
Which wolframalpha thinks is this monster... $\frac{6e^{7x}(-343x^{3}+147x^{2}-42x+349)}{2401}$
Now calculating that at x = 1 gives $\frac{666e^{7}}{2401}$
which does not sound right
And at the lower limit x = -20/7
$\frac{58014}{2401e^{20}}$
Subtracting: $\frac{666e^{7}}{2401} - \frac{58014}{2401e^{20}}$
gives me...
oh I scred up on the prevous try, it is a positive nr :D
multiplied by pi, for the volume and we get ~955.64 for the outer shape
does it sound like the correct course of action or did I go offtrack?
20:33
@AlessandroCodenotti hey
du hast gekommen
hast du meinen Beweis gesehen?
yesterday, by Leaky Nun
@AlessandroCodenotti cof(L) = cof(A[L]) = cof(K) = K = A[L], so cof(L)=L, so K=A[L]=A[cof(L)]=A[K]
For the cofinality thing? Yes, I had actually convinced myself too in the meantime with essentially the same argument
bene
che pensi di set theory? vuoi recercare per lei?
This sentence doesn't really work, but I know what you mean and the answer is probably yes
20:38
hmm... uno di gli miei professori continua dicendo che set theory non va cambiare molto il mondo di mathematica
Even though the more model theory I learn the more I like it so I might end up doing that instead
che non ha molto valore di studiare set theory / model theory
How do set theory and model theory differ, actually?
model theory is applied set theory, set theory is applied model theory
If your aim is to revolutionize math then maybe set theory is not the best choice. But I just aim at thinking about stuff I enjoy
20:42
I feel about the same way, Alessandro. I've been really pulled into topology, lately, as a result of that.
(Also, does that mean that set and model theory are the same thing, Leaky?)
Model theory studies models of first order theories abstractly (I know this is not exactly informative...), while set theory studies some specific first order theories (ZF and extensions usually) and models of those
Ah, I've always wanted to learn a little bit of model theory, if I'm interpreting what you've said correctly.
There are some things which are clearly set theory, some things which are clearly model theory and some overlap between the two
@Rithaniel cardinal/ordinal arithmetic is definitely set theory, for example
Now I need to find the volume of a sphere made up by $y^2+\left(x+\frac{1}{7}\right)^2=\frac{4}{49}$
20:47
that's no sphere
here (PDF file) are some model theory notes going from the very basics to some advanced stuff if you want to get a feeling for the topic by skimming
will be, if that thing rotates around the x axis
volume = 4/3 pi r^3
Thank god, no Integral here :D I can find r from the graph
so r = 0.28575 and volume.. 0.0977 ?
does not sound right
Hey @Alessandro @Leaky et al
20:53
Hi @ÍgjøgnumMeg
How's it going?
goddag @ÍgjøgnumMeg
horribly
@RandoHinn why not?
@Leaky gott kvøld !
20:54
it is?
in that case, on to the next task
@ÍgjøgnumMeg ich spreche kein Faroese
Ich weiß, aber nur damit du's für's nächste mal weißt sagt man am Abend gott kvøld
:D
Okay, my second task is physics related. I am by no means a physicist
21:13
I'm given a volume and relative density
need to find mass
Hey does anyone here happened to know anything about bounded cohomology?
I have been given a cyclindrical tank, r=94cm h=285cm, rel.density of motor oil =0.90
accelleration fo gravitu 9.8m/s**2
and water density 100kg/m**3
Am being asked the weight of the motor oil, the integral for calculationg the work being done (in joules) and the work being done
Am I correct in believing that I need to find the weight of water at the volume of the can, and multiply that by 0.90 for the motor oil weight?
anyone can help?
the marked words is by mistake ^^
21:33
oh, the wight of the motor oil I'm asked, is N/m3
21:44
@none No, but what's your question?
I'm clueless
Tank h = 285cm, r = 94cm, relative density of motor oil = 0.90. gravity accelleration 9.8m/s2 and water desnity 1000 kg/m3
I need to find
the weight of the motor oil (N/m**3) Somehow
My weak guess is water density*relative density
multipled by the gravity accelleration
how wrong am i?
22:06
@MikeMiller I guess my main question doesn't really concern bounded cohomology (which I don't know about either). I'm curious about representations of the group of $Homeo^{+}(S^1)$ of orientation preserving homeomorphisms of $S^1$. There some connections between some matrices acting on some elements of that group and their rotation number. However, I only really know about the analytic aspects of circle maps, and this connection seems to be algebraic.
I'm not really sure there's a question there I can answer. Can you give some more detail about what you're curious about?
Maybe I'm curious too. :)
Of course, this is very vague right now. Give me a second to provide some more details.
Oh and the reason I mentioned bounded cohomology is because it provides a generalization of the rotation number in a more algebraic setting.
Anyway so here are some more details, I'll keep it brief and if you want to know more let me know!

The maps in $Homeo^{+}(S^1)$ I'm looking at are piecewise affine maps with 2 affine pieces (let me know if this makes sense, I'm not sure if this terminology is standard, I'm coming from a dynamics perspective). Then renormalizations of these maps correspond to actions by elements of $GL_{2}(\mathbb{Z})$. Unsurprisingly, the determinants/eigenvectors of these matrices give information about the rotation number.
This is why I want to know about representations of $Homeo^{+}(S^1)$, and I can't seem to find resources about that online.
It's clear to me what you mean.
I don't know what a renormalization is, though.
I assume you know the paper by Ghys.
Can someone verify my train of thought there?
please
22:21
I'm reading a text where the author uses "Definition", "Lemma", "N.B.", "Example" etc, but also "Rappel", what does Rappel mean?
french for 'recall'
presumably author is french and slipped
oh
the author is american XD
odd.
@none I'm not sure that $\text{Homeo}^+(S^1)$ has any finite-dimensional representations. Are you sure it does?
I think it does not.
It acts on $L^2(S^1)$, though, or any $L^p$.
It seems like you're trying to get at something rather different, though. I'm not sure I get it.
@MikeMiller I can define the the renormalization if you are curious about it, it would be much much easier if I could draw some pictures though.

Regarding a paper by Ghys, I'm not sure. However the stuff I skimmed about bounded cohomology and circle maps contains a lot of stuff attributed to him (the document is by Frigieri, I believe).

And regarding your last message, I have no idea. My representation theory is non-existent really, so it's very possible I'm saying non-sense/proposing non-sense. My apologies if that's the case. I'm not getting at anything particularly specific, I just wan
I just figured having representation of this group would be a natural way of doing this, but since I don't know about rep theory beyond basic definitions, I wanted to ask if this seemed reasonable before I spent significant time learning parts of it.
I think it's the weong avenue, yeah. I think I can prove there's no natural way to associate matrices to homeomorphisms.
You're working with special kinds, which makes it a little different.
There are natural groups of matrices sitting inside of the homeomorphism group - $PSL_2(\Bbb R)$ I think being the most famous.
The paper I have in mind is "Groups acting on the circle".
22:42
Thank you for your insight! I'm curious about the idea behind not being able to make this association. I'll check Ghys's paper as well.

And yeah these maps are especially simple, but unfortunately it seems that this class of maps doesn't form a subgroup, which is why I was considering $Homeo^{+}(S^1)$ as a whole.
@none My proof is wrong. I still think it might be the case that you can't find any nonzero map to a matrix group, though.
@AlessandroCodenotti Do you know a Thorben?
Thanks! If you get any ideas/are curious about the details of the problem let me know! I'll ask my professor about this when I seem him tomorrow, he will probably have some ideas about this stuff.
23:04
what's the connection between $D_{\Bbb P^n}(f)$ and $D_{\Bbb A^{n+1}}(f)$ ?
what is $D$?
the points where $f$ is not zero @MikeMiller
its probably a trivial question, im just not feeling comfortable with going from $\Bbb P^n$ to $\Bbb A^{n+1}$ and backwards
The zeroes of $f$ in $\mathbf{A}^{n+1}$ form a cone: scalar multiplication preserves zeroes. (This is immediate from homogeneity.) The zero set in $\mathbf{P}^n$ is the projectivization of this set.
The complementof the zeroes form an open cone: scalar multiplication by non-zero constants preserves the property that $f(x) \neq 0$. We can again projectivize this, and the result is your $D_{\mathbf{P}^n}$.
Put another way: $Z_{\mathbf{A}}$ and $D_{\mathbf{A}}$ are complements of one another, and if you ignore $0$, $$Z_{\mathbf{P}} = Z_{\mathbf{A}} / k^\times$$ and therefore $$D_{\mathbf{P}} = D_{\mathbf{A}}/k^\times.$$
23:33
Today I learned: There are two concepts in different fields of math. One is named a homomorphism, and the other is named a homeomorphism.
That never causes confusion for me but does cause typos for me.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to keep it straight, but that still seems like poor planning.
Nobody planned it! History is complicated.
Is there some tractable way to think about homology of an Eilenberg-Maclane space?
do you have one in mind?
or all of them?
in the latter case no.
23:36
In particular, showing that either $H_2$, $H_3$, $H_4$ of $K(\mathbb{Z}/p,1)$ with $\mathbb{Z}/p$ coefficients is non-zero
@MikeMiller ok mr marx
write down an explicit model
think lens space
@MikeMiller thanks!
for what it's worth, $H^n(K(G, m); H) = [K(G, m), K(H, n)]$, and these are the same as natural transformations $H^m(-;G) \to H^n(-;H)$
but in practice computing the latter two is done by computing the first.
I don't know what a lens space is :/
23:38
do you know an explicit model for $K(\Bbb Z/2, 1)$?
$\mathbb{RP}^{\infty}$
do the same thing but for the natural $\Bbb Z/p$ action on $S(\Bbb C^\infty)$.
@MikeMiller im doing this exercise
I doubt I can help
23:39
so in the none projective space we have that $k[\Bbb A^{n} -Z(f)] = k[x_1,..x_n,1/f]$
@MikeMiller i almost solved it :P just need some directions
I assume this means the same as $k[x_1, \cdots, x_n, y]/(yf(x_1, \cdots, x_n)-1)$
where $|y| = -\deg f$
then presumably you just want the homogeneous elements of this ring
ah nvm.
what you wrote is right!
really? i can feel it's right but i cant find a way to formulate it :/
given that you can write any homogeneous element as $\sum_{i=0}^k g_i \cdot y^i$, where $g_i$ is some function of the first $n$ variables with degree $-i\deg f$, you can write this element as $$\left(\sum_{i=0}^k g_i \cdot f^{k-i}\right) \cdot y^k,$$ where the sum is therefore a homogeneous element of degree $k\deg f = -|y^k|$
23:44
this is what i want to use
the description i just gave above is exactly what you just said!
but in this theorem, $Y' \subset \Bbb A^n$
@MikeMiller I don't think so. Is this person a student or mathematician in Bonn?
I see, I don't think that's someone I know
23:51
I like his posts
Problem: Let $T \in \mathcal{L}(V)$ and $p(x)$ and $q(x)$ relatively prime polynomials such that $p(T)q(T) = 0$. Prove that $null(p(T)) \cap null(q(T)) = \{0\}$. Proof: Since $p$ and $q$ are relatively prime, there are polynomials $a$ and $b$ such that $1= a(x)p(x) + b(x)q(x)$ which implies $I = a(T)p(T) + b(T)q(T)$. If $v \in null(p(T)) \cap null(q(T))$, then $Iv = a(T)p(T)v + b(T)q(T)v = 0$ implies $v=0$.
Does this seem correct? I didn't use the fact that $p(T) q(T)=0$, which worries me.
That seems good to me (very clean). I too am confused about that assumption.
Okay. Thanks!
I suspect they were interested mainly in polynomials satisfying $p(T) q(T) = 0$ and wanted you to show this fact in the relatively prime case.
I've done a problem with the same assumptions but where you have to prove that $V = \ker(p(T)) \oplus \ker(q(T))$
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