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01:00
(Anyway's there's nothing else to say really. I think this has been dragged on enough. I suggest we kindly drop it.)
:-)
That's the kind of thing Xander's railing against, and I agree.
@TedShifrin he was talking to me, not you.
It's hard to tell how limited the audience for a comment is.
it was addressing my statement
So the World Cup...
01:01
that's how I knew
aaaanyways
Just realised USA is not in the world cup so there isn't gonna be much interest...
You guys prefer sports where hands are used a lot.
@TheGreatDuck You say "I know it is true so I'm personally comfortable saying theorem." My point is not that a theorem is a true statement, but that a theorem is a true statement together with a proof. If noone has bothered to write a proof, then it is a conjecture. To say that you are trying to prove a theorem is to say that you know (from some other source) that the statement is true and has been proved, but that you don't know how to prove it.
@Symposium You mean like esports?
damn, I have to agree with Xander on this.
@XanderHenderson it's simple enough that definitely some human being on the planet has definitely proven it at some point
if something that basic in what I'm doing is an unsolved statment
/tableflip
cause i may as well go home
01:03
@Fargle Ah, I suppose that's a 'sport' where hands are used a lot.
im screwed if that's the case
It's not always clear how difficult a statement is just by looking at it
@Symposium As for the WC, I may catch some of it. Soccer is a very interesting game, I just don't see it very often in my area.
@MatheinBoulomenos it's the equivalent of proving only constants differentiate to 0 in a certain situation
And I expect that to be even more true since the US isn't in.
01:05
Thinking about it, there actually aren't that many ball sports where the foot is used.
so if that's not proven
In Morocco people love soccer so I watched it a fair bit there (that's what was playing on TV 90% of the time you went into a cafe, the other 10% was news)
anyhow, @Fargle, I do try to have a net positive effect. Sometimes I fail.
Now not so much
id be starting to sweat seeing as I got my eyes set on the FTOC for that thing.
ugh
01:05
@Fargle I think it's gonna be a blast! Spain v Portugal tomorrow!
but yeah i do need to edit those
@Symposium Depends on what you mean by 'foot is used'.
i might generalize one a tad bit
Oooh that sounds like it'll be a good one.
so it isnt so equivalent
01:06
@Symposium Chess doesn't use the feet I suppose.
True, even football uses the foot sometimes :P
might be a good idea too
then again that might make it false
ugh
@Symposium Does baseball count? Basketball? :P
@Alex or do you mean foot in the sense of running? :P
Basketball's all about the footwork
01:06
@Daminark Well in any way at all :P
I suppose one stabilises themselves in their seat with their feet (in chess).
@Alex !!
Hey @TedShifrin
@Alex Psychological warfare, too--step on your opponent's toes aggressively the whole match. You may force him into making a mistake.
As in Tennis, Rugby, Basketball etc I suppose you use the foot technically, but you don't play with the foot primarily in the sense of football.
@Fargle I think that's not even psychological at that point haha
01:08
Yeah, that's fair, lol
This is the part where English not being my first language shows up lol.
Re: discussion about theorem/conjecture

I agree with Xanders comment about having seen a proof before calling it a theorem
@Symposium Oh, I'm just messing about, normally one wouldn't interpret your message so literally
@Alex then by that reasoning people who havent seen proof of the fundamental theorem of calculus cannot call it a theorem because they haven't personally seen a proof.
I know. I find it interesting something seemingly so simple an idea can be quite hard to describe in words.
I know that Fermat's Last Theorem has been proved, but I haven't read the 500 pages of proof.
01:11
Today's chat is as rough as my mind currently on the train right now
@TedShifrin give me a moment and I'll post it.
I did say 'seen' not 'read' though admittedly
it's not in any way complicated
it's normal real analysis stuff
like
I haven't "seen" it either, @Alex.
undergrad level
01:12
@TheGreatDuck if it's so easy, then just prove it
But I trust the great mathematicians who've proved it.
If I finally understand the proof of FLT I think I'll retire.
@TedShifrin Fair
It's like the 6th week I failed to produce the methods section and I am terribly worried
Lol along those lines, I remember there was some talk regarding the recent algorithm for graph isomorphism because there was a non-zero dependence on the classification of finite simple groups
01:13
@MatheinBoulomenos You assume I know real analysis for starters or that I am capable of even doing proofs.
-3
Q: Proof that a set of functions consists only of piecewise constant functions.

The Great DuckFirst we will define the left and right derivatives as follows: Left derivative of $f(x)$: $f(x)^+ = \lim_{h \to 0^+} \frac {f(x+h) - \lim_{a \to x^+} f(a)}{h}$ Right derivative of $f(x)$: $f(x)^- = \lim_{h \to 0^-} \frac {f(x+h) - \lim_{a \to x^-} f(a)}{h}$ Now let us define the set of piecew...

(Schreyer's hypothesis, that the outer automorphism group of a finite simple group is solvable, is only known at the moment by checking off from the list in the classification)
I hate proofs like that, Demonark.
@Daminark you literally could've just made all that up right now and I'd never even know. For that I commend you sir.
bows down before the better math user
-> You may call it a theorem if you are convinced that there exists a valid proof of it

Is that what people want? Is that what you are arguing for @TheGreatDuck
The classification of finite simple groups has some important applications
Nikolov and Segal used that to prove that if a profinite group is topologically finitely generated, then every finite index subgroup is open
01:15
@TheGreatDuck with great power comes great responsibility
@Alex the guy starting sending me messages telling me not to call it a theorem for some reason or to otherwise give a citation. I didn't even ask his opinion. He is kind of being pushy.
@TheGreatDuck I don't think I followed the conversation earlier
@TheGreatDuck Which guy?
But how do you know it's true (calling it a theorem)?
that means that for topologically finitely generated profinite groups, the topology is determined by the algebraic structure
which is a pretty significant result
01:16
@Alex just drop it please
But I only just picked it up
@Symposium my point is that it doesnt matter. I'm just a noob asking mse questions. I'm not gonna stumble upon anything that hasn't already been buried under ten feet of papyrus as ted put it
@Alex i asked to drop it 10 minutes ago but here we still are
18 minutes ago, I see now, and I arrived 12 minutes ago :P
@TheGreatDuck It may confuse people. I'd say "I'm trying to prove/disprove the following" or something along those lines.
01:18
@TheGreatDuck You are the one who keeps discussing it. But, since you seem not to want to actually drop it: yesterday, you asked why your question was being downvoted, and why people were voting to close it. You were implicitly asking for the opinions of anyone in the room. I suggest that (1) calling the result a "theorem" when you don't know where a proof can be found is confusing, and it might be better to call it a "conjecture" and (2) the titles of the questions are vague and click-baity.
Oh my
I was trying to help you improve your question so that it wouldn't be closed.
@XanderHenderson no I was specifically asking a specific person why the post was being marked a duplicate simple because the first paragraph was copy/pasted.
it's obvious why it was downvoted
Other people here, such as @Symposium, are trying to help you.
because people dont read
no
you're being pushy
i said i disagreed
01:20
You asked a question ins a PUBLIC CHAT!
thank you
@XanderHenderson but it was addressed to a specific individual
This is not a private room. If you don't want the opinions of third parties, DON'T BRING IT UP IN A PUBLIC ROOM!
im sorry that this site doesnt allow people to have private conversations and just discuss stuff
Invite the other user to a private chat.
Yes, actually, it does.
no, it has chats only certain people can post in
01:21
@TheGreatDuck, you do have a knack for raising blood pressure.
but even the so called private ones can be accessed offline
You can create your own room for a private chat.
wow, this conversation is really pointless
@TedShifrin they raised it first
No, @TheGreatDuck, I've had problems with you for years. But I try to be fair
01:22
@TedShifrin yeah because people keep ticking me off over and over and over
well, maybe you're the problem.
@TheGreatDuck If "people keep ticking you off," maybe the problem isn't them.
Good idea.
LOL @Secret
@TedShifrin in an attempt to get the discussion back to math, would you recommend starting with something that deals with algebraic curves first in some detail (e.g. Fulton, or maybe something about the connection with Riemann surfaces, e.g. Miranda) or just do general varieties from the start?
01:24
Personally, @Mathein, I'd start with curves. They're interesting and have a rich source of results. Surfaces get very complicated. And general varieties ... one doesn't know much.
@TedShifrin I see, thanks
And everyone should know the basics about curves — Riemann Roch, canonical curves, etc.
@LeakyNun you can deduce Galois descent for algebras from Galois descent for vector spaces easily
General stuff like Serre duality, etc., factors in if you do it more generally.
01:26
Are you a Hartshorne (textbook) fan @TedShifrin?
Not particularly, Alex. I'm a Griffiths fan.
@LeakyNun the category of $k$-algebras is the category of monoid objects in the monoidal category of $k$-vector spaces with $\otimes_k$ as the monoidal structure. You only have to check that the equivalences for vector spaces behaves nicely with tensor products and the rest is automatic
Maybe you've forgotten, Alex, but I don't think about algebraic geometry in terms of algebra ... much.
@TedShifrin if that's really how you feel then I'll just go ahead and leave
@MatheinBoulomenos do you have a construction of the left adjoint of Top->Haus that avoids universe issues and transfinite recursion?
01:27
I hadn't, but I thought I'd ask
last time I told myself i wouldnt waste time on here ever again or waste time on my stupid nonsense
i should have taken that advice
goodbye
Zee
Zee
@TedShifrin is there a canonical meaning for the phrase “gluing constructions in differential geometry “?
@LeakyNun hmm
Bye
I haven't thought about that before
01:27
bye
but probably some adjoint functor theorem applies
Zee
Zee
@TheGreatDuck hey man , why you so upset?
Sounds like partitions of unity, @Zee.
@MatheinBoulomenos Can I ask you about Neukirch (I think you read it, if I'm not misremembering)? How good is it?
But universes are great
01:28
@MatheinBoulomenos sure, but I don't like that either
it technically has no universe issues but its concept has universe issues
@Symposium I've read some of it now, and I enjoy it. He repeats many themes over and over, and you appreciate them as you go along
Zee
Zee
@TedShifrin there is a topics course with that name by a riemanian geometer but the course has no description
I think Neukirch defines valuations 5 times
I'd want a description :)
Zee
Zee
Me too...
01:30
@MatheinBoulomenos to be clear, the proof with universe issues is to take the points identified by all maps with hausdorff codomain; the proof with transfinite recursion takes the equivalence relation generated by x~y iff any open set of x intersects with any open set of y, and then quotient it Ord times
@Zee I'm not sir. I'm just.... too exhausted with really the only thing keeping me here to bother with it anymore.
1 stepforward
30 steps back
because somehow maths is weird and the quotient first time isn't hausdorff
Zee
Zee
@TheGreatDuck your clearly upset
Don’t be , it’s a chat room...
@Alex I wonder the utility of learning the material in Neukirch from different places (class field theory from Nancy Childress' book etc) vs learning it from Neukirch?
01:32
@Symposium I like Neukirch a lot. (One has to note that there are three books of Neukirch on ANT, I'm talking about "Algebraic Number Theory")
The exposition is very clear and insightful, I think he does things in the right generality until you go deeper. I can't speak about the English translation, but the German original also is really good stylistically.
He also has a chapter on "Riemann-Roch theory" that develops a notion of genus, divisors etc. for number fields closely modelled to the analogies with Riemann surfaces, which is great if you're intereted in that kind of stuff. I haven't
@Zee: "gluing" usually suggests sheaf theory, but because of the specific differential geometry reference, he might have something more specific in mind.
@Mathein: If you're going to start learning algebraic geometry, divisors and linear systems are a key idea.
Zee
Zee
It’s M T Anderson , he works with Einstein manifolds and low dimensional riemanian manifolds if that helps . I should email him
And general relativity
Oh, Mike Anderson at Stony Brook? Or someone else?
Zee
Zee
Ya
Old friend of mine.
Take any course you can from Blaine Lawson.
But I don't know what he means. Email him and ask.
Zee
Zee
01:35
Lol am taking topology with him if I manage to enroll next semester
@Symposium I can't comment since I'm not far enough through Neukirch yet
Zee
Zee
Blaine is cool but he doesn’t like discussing any philosophical math with me , Anderson is cool with that
Lawson was by far one of my favorite profs at Berkeley ... and then he left for Stony Brook. He was on my PhD committee.
@Symposium Some things to note: Some exercises are _really_ hard. There's one in the first chapter where I still don't know how on earth you can solve that with the methods that are in the text up to that point.
Also his approach to class field theory is quite elementary. That can be good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view. I personally think that having some machinery can clarifiy things, even if you need some dry building up to that. (Also if you want to go deeper in ANT; then the more advanced methods like Galois cohomology are worth learning, anyway)
Well, Blaine doesn't want to waste time on bullshit. Mike is probably more OK with that. :)
Zee
Zee
01:36
Haha
@MatheinBoulomenos, @Alex Thanks.
@MatheinBoulomenos Which exercise is it?
Blaine is one of my top 5 on math lists.
Say hi for me. :)
You can say hi to Mike, too.
Zee
Zee
He’s really nice , I took complex analysis with him , he extended the midterm by a whole hour
Blaine that is
One of my favorite students at UGA did his PhD in geometry with Mike, finished about 6 years ago.
He's awesome.
01:37
@Alex it was asking to show that the Pell's equation has nontrivial solutions. That follows from either continuous fractions or Dirichlet's unit theorem, but I would never come up with either of that
Blaine is truly one of the 5 best lecturers/teachers I know.
Time may have changed things, but that was true 40 years ago for sure.
Zee
Zee
It’s amazon how you all know each other
Not all.
But I know a few :)
@MatheinBoulomenos Let $F$ be a field, and fix an algebraic closure $\overline F$. Let $\Sigma$ denote the finite Galois intermediate fields $\overline F/E/F$, and consider the map $\varphi : \operatorname{Gal}(\overline F/F) \to \displaystyle \prod_{E \in \Sigma} \operatorname{Gal}(E/F)$. Is the image closed?
Zee
Zee
well I’ll say hi to them for you!
01:39
Please do.
@Mathein conjecture: for every concept in math, there is a sensible interpretation of the name of that concept followed by "cohomology"
no, Demonark :P
Galois cohomology is a pretty big thing in NT
measure theory cohomology
@LeakyNun yes
Zee
Zee
01:40
Well Blaine Lawson define some kind of homologous using geometric measure theory so
@MatheinBoulomenos why?
Oh, currents are due to deRham, Zee, but Blaine has done amazing stuff with them, yes.
Yup.
And he's done a lot with currents and complex geometry, too.
Zee
Zee
I don’t have enough background to understand them frankly though
01:42
Well, get to work.
Zee
Zee
@TedShifrin let me ask you something about Blaine that he could not answer about his work for me
So I say many things attached to him like spin geometry, the Durham Federer stuff , Lawson homology and so on
And I asked him , how does he manage to work in areas that to me atleast don’t have much in common
no, it's all geometry ... but he's a very broad and smart man.
Zee
Zee
He didn’t answer me but is there a common technique there or is he just good
his PhD was on minimal surfaces.
He is super good.
super.
Berkeley + StonyBrook indicates someone great.
But he truly is.
Zee
Zee
Is the algebraic geometry stuff along your field or more algebraic ?
That he did
01:45
he's not super-algebraic. He's more analytic/differential geometric.
I haven't kept up with everything he's done.
Zee
Zee
Ah ok , well your enthusiasm increased my motivation to do good so thank you
@LeakyNun consider the map $\prod_{E \in \Sigma} \operatorname{Ga}(E/F) \to \prod_{E \in \Sigma} \prod_{E' \in \Sigma, E' \subset E} \operatorname{Gal}(E'/F)$ where we send $\sigma \in \operatorname{Gal}(E/F)$ to the product of all restrictions of $\sigma$ to intermediate Galois extensions contained in $E$. $\operatorname{Gal}(\overline{F}/F)$ is the preimage of $\prod \prod \operatorname{id}$ under that
Oh, great, Zee. He's one of my favorite people ever.
(and that map is continuous)
@MatheinBoulomenos what the actual
01:48
maybe there's a simpler proof idk. You can do a similar argument to show that the inverse limit of Hausdorff spaces is closed in the product iirc
why is that the preimage of that?
because it's the inverse limit
you already showed that
saying that this maps to the identity is just a complicated way to define that the elements in the product $\prod \operatorname{Gal}(E/F)$ have compatible restrictions
it's actually sufficient to know that if you have to parallel continuous maps $f,g: X \to Y$, where $Y$ is a Hausdorff space, then the equalizer $\{x \in X\mid f(x)=g(x)\}$ is closed in $Y$, because it's the preimage of the diagonal $\{(y,y) \mid y \in Y\}$ under the map $f \times g: X \to Y \times Y$
Yippee, @Mathein. Right proof :P
and Hausdorff implies closed diagonal
why is Ted excited about category theory
01:53
then in category theory, you can construct any limit as a equalizer of a product
he's not, Leaky. He's happy about the right characterization of graphs and diagonals.
the construction is similiar to what I wrote above, but I basically replaced a equalizer with a kernel, because we have group homomorphisms
(you have to take some really large product over all morphisms in the index category)
@TedShifrin You were at Berkeley in the 70s, right? I know that Berkeley was/is a huge department, but is there any chance that you overlapped with Bruce Blackadar?
Yes, I knew Bruce, @Xander.
Awesome!
He was on my master's committee.
01:55
@LeakyNun that's how you show that having all limits is equivalent to having (arbitrary) products and equalizers of two morphisms
He might not remember me, but say hi.
nobody wants to check that the definition of a general limit
I haven't seen him in a few years, but if I am ever back in Reno, I'll do so.
Yeah, I thought he was in Reno.
Anywho, that was all. Back to lurking. ;)
01:56
@MatheinBoulomenos I see
I just checked. We only overlapped my first year, but I definitely knew him.
@LeakyNun it's a useful proof to know, because it also tells you how limits look like if you know what products and equalizers look like
I took most of my graduate level analysis from him.
Not surprising.
Those were really good courses. I don't think that I would have made it through real analysis at UCR without having taken that material from Blackadar.
01:58
It's good that some of us engender such positive responses and results :)

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