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19:00
@NicholasRoberts The boundary of some chain
@TobiasKildetoft do you by any chance remember boring things about complex representations of $Q_8$? I'm struggling with an exercise.
Homology is cycles modulo boundaries, so it's zero iff it's a boundary.
The map from the triangle to the space is gonna be the chain that it's a boundary of.
So, in essence the loop is a boundary of some chain
@Arrow What sort of things?
19:01
@NicholasRoberts Yeah
Ah i see. I need to think about these things in terms of maps
You need to convert the map $D^2\to X$ to a map $\Delta\to X$, which isn't too hard
(You need a map $\Delta\to D^2$ and then compose it with the map $D^2\to X$)
Ok so homotopic to a point implies existence of a map from $D^2$ to the space such that the restriction of this map to the boundary of D2 gets mapped to the loop. Now we need to convert this map into a chain?
Is that the right terminology
I am trying to write down how the complexification of the 4d irreducible real representation decomposes into two copies of the 2d irreducible complex representation. I was given a hint to try to find an isomorphism of vector spaces, but I don't really know what I'm doing.
@Arrow How have you had the real one given? As some matrices?
19:05
o. .o
@TobiasKildetoft yes. I know both via matrices w.r.t the standard bases.
@Arrow how many conjugacy classes are in $Q_8$?
@NicholasRoberts Yes
@TobiasKildetoft five I think
@TobiasKildetoft I think I managed something. Thanks for your time.
can an overdetermined system have infinitely many solutions?
19:17
I always forget which one is over- and which is under-determined
what is an overdetermined system ?
More linear equations than variables, or vice versa
well yeah it can have infinitely many solutions
I never remember which one is which
not a big fan of linear algebra either
19:20
Oh the beginning can be kind of boring but as you get more advanced it gets a lot more interesting
I prefer working with infinite dimensional spaces, they're much more interesting to me
I hope so
@Arrow Cool
But if you stay with lin.alg. you'll learn that the space of tuples of real numbers is just one example of vector spaces
But it turns out any finite-dimensional vector space with dimension $n$ is isomorphic to $\mathbb R^n$ or $\mathbb C^n$ so once you know Euclidean space very well it very naturally carries over to all finite dimensional spaces
I don't know if you came across the idea of isomorphisms yet but I can explain what that means if you want
@GFauxPas Well that's hardly fair, what about vector spaces over finite fields!
characteristic $p>0$ feels left out
ugh fine, I meant all real vector space spaces over fields with characteristic $0$. happy!? >.<
19:26
fine :P
though even with that, it's good enough to understand $\mathbb Z / p \mathbb Z$ in general
at least in my experience. maybe there are times that won't work
@GFauxPas Most linear algebra is completely independent of the field
mainly inner products is where things need some extra stuff
My topology professor told us about a professor of his when that was always making sign errors, so he always used $\mathbb Z/2\mathbb Z$ to compute homologies because then $-1 = 1$
and of course something like the proof of Cayley-Hamilton tends to look somewhat different
why do we change signs again when using simplices to find homologies
theres an intuition to it but i forgot what it was
oh I see
because when you go backwards you switch the vertices
19:35
@GFauxPas what book are you using for topology
lecture notes lol
wikipedia and googling pdfs
does he put up his lecture notes?
nope sorry. i'm looking at this right now people.physics.anu.edu.au/~vbr110/thesis/ch3-homology.pdf
skipping to the "how to" part because right now i just want to be able to do them
for an exam
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvain_Cappell this guy. he's really chill
yeah im thinking about taking him next semester
oh you're in NYU?
19:38
(Dan here :) )
Dan! Hi!
stalker
oh you know
not many places for me to go
how are his homework and exams?
take homes? hards?
hi guys... what do you think about this question? math.stackexchange.com/questions/2775478/volume-of-a-bottle do you think there's not enough information to solve it?
cause I think so...
well you have to do whatever you can with respect to $r$ being a function of $h$
or do they mean $r$ is constant
it's constant
I think..
that's all what the problem says
19:44
@Twink Well, we could interpret it as asking for the largest amount such a bottle could possibly contain
:S
would we get that when it's a cylinder?
well the problem wouldnt be asking about the cylinder part because the volume of a cylinder just a formula that you probbaly know
Say I have a function $2\ln{x}$
Is the derivative $1/x^2$ or $2/x$
you have a function $2 \ln x$
Thanks
19:47
what do you think?
I see no reason why they should be the same
they're not
eXACTLY
but $2 \ln x = \ln(x^2)$ so they must have the same derivative no matter which form you differentiate
so your answers can't both be correct
I cant see what I could have done wrong with either
19:49
do you know the chain rule?
then the problem is not well explained right?
Whats the latex for derivatives?
unless there's something glaring I'm missing Twink
there's like 100 different notations for derivative but an easy one is D_x
19:50
Hey everyone!
DAMI!
@GFauxPas what would you answer to this problem?
$ \frac{dy}{dt}\ln{x^2} = (1/x^2)(2x)$
Which agrees with the other answer
Thanks guys
thats good except for the $y$ part, you never defined $y$ so you just write $\dfrac {d}{dx}$
Ah true
19:53
$\dfrac {d}{dx}\ln x^2 = \dfrac d {d(x^2)}\ln(x^2)\dfrac{d}{dx}x^2$
like that
Just a habit
understood :)
Hi! Why aren't the yellow parts as the follows: $e^{-2\pi ix_2 \cdot \xi_2}$, $e^{-2\pi ix_1 \cdot \xi_1}$
@GFauxPas ???
I would say something like
people usually don't fill up the bottle all the way to the rim
so its enough to consider the cylindrical part
or something like that
Leyla he's splitting them up into a product I thin k
20:02
yeah there should be a 2, it's probably a typo
I think it's a captious problem
not fair for a competion in an olympiad
maybe there's a typo in it twink
if there isnt a typo, I agree with you
@mercio Oh okay, could you also show me how $\int_{\mathbb R}e^{\pi x_1^2}e^{-2\pi ix_1 \cdot \xi_1}$ results $e^{\pi \xi_1^2}$ ? I don't know how to approach to it when there's a dot product
do you know how much is the integral on R of exp(-x²) dx ?
I didnt get what you mean
20:13
$\displaystyle \int_{-\infty}^{+\infty} e^{-x^2} \, \mathrm dx$ he's asking about
20:23
@GFauxPas that integral is equal to 3
up to some multiplicative constant
:O
Obviously the solution is |...|<infinity
How does one argue that there exist points $y_0,...,y_n \in [a,b]$ such that $y_0=a$, $y_n = b$, and $y_k - y_{k-1} < \epsilon$ for $k=1,...,n-1$? I tried using compactness, but I couldn't see how this would work.
@XanderHenderson Isn't it $\sqrt {\pi}$ ?
and $\sqrt{\pi} = \frac{\sqrt{\pi}}{3} \cdot 3$
which is 3, up to a multiplicative constant
ack... typos.
@user193319 I don't know the context your question is in but this looks like a case for the Archimedian principle which ensures that for every $\varepsilon \gt 0$ there is an $n \in \Bbb N$ such that $\frac{1}{n} \lt \varepsilon$.
then just split your interval equally spaced parts with length $1/n$
this doesn't use compactness but rather completeness
20:37
@philmcole Ah, I see! Thanks!
Can somebody explain to me the difference between having a curve given parametrically as the image of a function $g(t)$ or as the graph $y = f(x)$ of some function $f$? To me they seem more or less like the same thing? I understand the difference of a curve being given implicitly by an equation. Is there a difference in the explicit representation by a parametrization or the graph of some function $f(x)$?
@LeylaAlkan there any many proofs of that integral but the one about changing to polar coordinates is so beautiful, Google it if you haven't seen it before, it's short
I think there's actually a post on math.se which is entirely proofs of the Gaussian integral
Yeap, I've seen that
:).
Phil, a parameterization has more information
Are both explicit?
20:42
Not sure what you mean by that
@philmcole: I dare you to give me the cycloid $x=t - \sin t$, $y=1-\cos t$, explicitly as a graph $y=f(x)$.
But anyway the idea of the image of a function g(t) is more easily generalizable then the idea of a graph of a function y=f(x)
ah! look who's here
@GFauxPas: Not really. A graph is a particular parametrization.
Who?
20:44
I don't see me.
i see you
i saw you. twice. and then you disappeared.
Why is 0celo profaning against geometry?
@TedShifrin Was just reading your book and I don't dare :P My question is, why do we want the curve given as the graph rather than the image of some function? Why is this better?
It isn't necessarily better.
Sure Ted but when you're considering groups of loops , to me at least, it's a lot more natural to consider image(g(t)) than y=f(x)
20:46
@GFauxPas: Very few parametric curves can be written explicitly as a graph (although locally it's possible with some hypotheses).
@philmcole: Have you gotten to the definition(s) of manifolds yet?
Ted. this has been bothering me since last night --

Suppose M is compact, 2-dimensional, oriented, embedded submanifold of R^3\{(0, 0, 0)}. Let omega := x . *dx (2-form). What are the possible values of the integral of omega over M?
Is that a support or an argument to what I'm saying :/
So for the cycloid then we are done since we have the parametric representation and don't need a graph? My question is directed to understanding the motivation of the implicit function theorem. I watched the lectures and also the definition of manifolds, but I want to understand the motivation of all of it.
What's the context phil
@JoeShmo: All real numbers except $0$.
20:48
how do you know?
'Cuz I'm smart? :P
6
Dan bc if it were 0 there wouldn't be a hole I think
im gonna write that on my exam tomorrow
You might not get away with it, JoeShmo.
"Ted's really smart and he said so"
20:50
how come you get away with it
LOL, @GFauxPas. Because I can. :)
But isn't that true that if it were 0 there wouldn't be a hole? Granted I know v little diff geo
What does Stokes's Theorem tell you, @JoeShmo?
well, i can say the following -- but this is really far fetched -- any such manifold is deformable to a 2-sphere with the same volume
and this is the volume form on the sphere
No, not true.
You can't deform tori into spheres.
Use Stokes's Theorem. What does it tell you?
20:51
the dimensions dont work out for stokes
hi @TedShifrin
Holy stokes
Of course they do, @JoeShmo. Every such $2$-manifold bounds a region ($3$-manifold with boundary) in $\Bbb R^3$.
i tried that too
interpret M as the boundary of N
so hwat
So what do you get? What's $d\omega$?
20:54
3 dx_123
Right. So what's the integral?
one sec. i may just have embarrassed myself
You lit yourself and turned into embers?
dur
3 vol_3(N)
20:55
where N is arbitrary
3*vol_3(N) > 0
OK, so why do I say all nonzero real numbers?
any, because M (hence N) is arbitrary
but how do I get negatives?
@TedShifrin Do I understand this right? The general motivation of the implicit function theorem is to be able to express implicit sets (for example curves) explicitly as the graph of some function (even if only locally) because this is better then implicitly. This has no connection to a parametric representation which would also be explicit (?).
oriented
you don't know how its oriented
20:56
@philmcole: It's only local ... and it's for theoretical, not practical reasons.
arbitrarily oriented
Right, @JoeShmo, so if the "outward normal" points inward, I get the negative.
yes
i was dancing around it all of last night. ive been staring at it too long..
implicit function theorems gives you local conditions for functions but doesn't tell you anything about how you can explicitly write down a formula, usually you can't
@GFauxPas: Here's a (theoretical) very important application of that equivalence. How do you decide if $y^2=x^3$ (in $\Bbb R^2$) is a manifold?
20:58
ooo. i know! i know!
me. pick me
Sshhhh
of what equivalence
the different definitions
I wasn't following Joe's conversation
@TedShifrin Sure. Just the book reads like "we know the parametrization of the cycloid but not the function of which it is a graph". Bascially my question is: Why would we care? We know the parametrization, so isn't this good enough?
20:59
ooh
Sorry for being pedantic.
Yes, sure.
No, I'm not the one arguing things have to be graphs. Most things aren't.
well you consider points where the diffeomorphism fails
Read what I just asked @GFauxPas up there ...
or doesn't fail
21:00
What diffeomorphism, @GFauxPas?
So it fails the obvious "implicit definition" — $f(x,y) = x^3-y^2 = 0$, but the derivative fails to have rank $1$ at the origin. Does that mean it can't be a manifold?
How to you prove there cannot be a chart around the origin?
between $y^2 = x^3$ and the euclidean space
How do you know there is no local diffeo to an interval in $\Bbb R$?
hi demonic @Alessandro.
@0celo7 wanted to convince you to have a fist fight earlier
21:02
I commented on his rude remark.
Oh, no, not that one
oh, he went on?
because the partials of $f$ vanish at $0$?
I know very little of manifolds
21:04
That doesn't prove it is not a manifold, @GFauxPas. It's a sufficient condition, not a necessary one. Consider, for example $f(x)=x^2$, $f\colon\Bbb R\to\Bbb R$.
did you take multivariate yet @GFauxPas
no Joe, probably next semester
oh oops
Isn't it because the curve is like an X around the origin so there is no way for it to be the graph for a function? Vertical/Horizontal line test fails.
i think its offered in the spring
No, not an X.
21:05
if its the same guy, youre going to have a blast
But if you're talking vertical/horizontal line tests, then you're talking about representing it as a graph.
yeah sure
So that graph definition is powerful for showing it cannot be a manifold.
Much easier than trying to prove there cannot possibly be a chart ...
oh because $\dfrac {\mathrm dx}{\mathrm dy}$ is not defined at the origin?
Lol, rude remark?
@TedShifrin I said you should have a fist fight with Sheldon Axler over the value of determinants
21:06
The starred one, I suppose
Nah, not worth my time.
He's a damn analyst, anyhow
Ah, he would win
I knew it!
@0celo7 hopefully the value of determinants is not zero
@AlessandroCodenotti there do exist some nonzero determinants :D
Once again you side against differential forms. No surprise.
21:08
What? I was the one who said determinants should be understood in terms of forms.
Why do you always assume things?
Well, that's actually vice-versa.
I don't see what differential forms have to do with a fist fight
Because you're declaring him the winner.
Yeah, analysts are the best fighters
Not your kind of analysis.
21:09
if you punch yourself with a differential form you vanish
I didn't say my kind of analysis either
At least when we were in grad school he did things like Banach algebras.
@GFauxPas Only if you're the best of the best, though
(top form)
I haven't kept up with what he's done.
He who does differential forms becomes the star. The Hodge star
21:10
Demonark wants to be the Beltrami of the ball.
The loser will look like a Hodge star when they're sprawled out on the mat
I've seen it argued that the Hodge star is the right way to understand the relation between the B- and H- fields in E&M, and I sorta like that idea
@Semiclassical Maybe...or maybe they're just different parts of $F_{\mu\nu}$ transforming under vector reps
Semiclassic: I told you to look at Bamberg & Sternberg's "intro" book for Harvard physics/math kids.
Oh Banach Algebras? Huh, a friend of mine said the stuff featured a bit in his REU paper, said it was fun
21:13
@0celo7 wait. what are you suggesting as an alternative?
what?
diff forms are bad? or am i misunderstanding what youre saying
Definitely sounds better than Ocelot's kind of analysis that's for sure :P
I have never, ever said differential forms are bad
Just because the analyst might win in a fist fight doesn't mean he's right :P
21:14
^
Ted doesn't seem mean enough to win in a fist fight...but a guy who wages war against determinants and also does functional analysis for a living must be hard
the analyst will lose to the topologist
the topologist will continuously deform the analyst's face
the analyst doesn't need a face to win
21:16
I think Sheldon's point is pedagogy more than deep mathematical philosophy, but I'm not sure.
That is correct
For a second course in linear algebra, understanding the minimal polynomial is not that bad an idea. But students should see determinants and the characteristic polynomial explicitly in a first linear algebra course.
I would not tell someone to read his book as a first exposure to linear algebra. For one thing, there's hardly any geometry at all in there.
His book title shows this too. I expected "more" when I finally read the book. It was written like any other, didn't appeal more on geometric intuition.
No, it's less geometric than mine for sure.
It's much more algebraic (module-theoretic without saying so).
And I like geometric intuition.
21:18
The way to beat an analyst is to deprive them of their ability to use Holder, integration by parts, and dyadic decomposition
without Holder all is lost
There was a really cool problem at the end of my Art of Problem Solving class today.
what was it?
Which subject was the class about?
Take a cube and stand it on its end "generically" on the xy-plane. It projects down to a hexagon.
Show that the area of the hexagon is the height of the cube.
Projections in 3D was the class.
21:20
On its end means on a vertex?
Hi, I would like to know: What is the upper bound for number of non-leaf nodes in tree? or How many non-leaf nodes in a tree? Is there any theory about this
The height means the distance from the furthest vertex to the xy-plane, right?
Right.
That sounds like black magic, I'll think about it
21:28
Weird
@Ted I think I got confused between the parametrization $g(t)$ and the graph of some function $y = f(x)$. In general does $g$ need to be a function? Because when it traces out for example a circle it looks like it fails the horizontal/vertical line test. Instead $f$ is required to be a function by the IFT, right?
$g$ is a function, but you're misunderstanding what a function is.
The image of $g$ certainly need NOT be a graph.
What's the difference between image (or range) and a graph?
I guess this doesn't make sense
A graph has to be of the form $(t,g(t))$, or more generally, $(x_1,\dots,x_m,f_1(x_1,\dots,x_m),\dots,f_k(x_1,\dots,x_m))$.
Image is the set of points which are hit, graph is the set of tuples?
21:33
No graph of a function has a specific meaning, as I just said.
I'm confusing why the parametrization can loop around freely and still be a function...
where a function need to obey the vertical/horizontal line test
Consider $g(t)=(\cos t, \sin t)$.
No, you keep saying that and that's only for the graph of a function.
and does the graph of $g$ satisfy it?
it does
oh got it
the graph is in $\Bbb R^3$
like a spiral
Yeah, it's called a helix.
Got it. I need to disconnect the parametric representation of the circle from the graph of the function the IFT guarantees to exists, because its graph lives in $\Bbb R^3$ and not $\Bbb R^2$.
21:45
whats the IFT?
intermediate function theorem?
sorry, implicit function theorem
just my abbreviation though because I am lazy
OK, I have to have my one-hour calc class with my charge who's taking the AP exam this week. Bubye.
g'luck
21:46
Bye, Ted! Have a nice day.
I don't need any luck, but thanks! ... See ya.
good luck to the student
yeah i wasn't wishing you luck

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