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03:01
@KannappanSampath what is $[S_n,S_n]$?
@DavidWheeler The commutator subgroup of $S_n$.
Or, $S_n '$
@Jeff the SET $\{\gamma(t)\}$ is the SET $C$
@KannappanSampath what i meant was, every commutator is an even permutation
You might be also familiar with derived subgroup of $G$, or whatever.... but you get that right?
@KannappanSampath the signum map $\operatorname{sign}: S_n \to \{\pm 1\}$ can also be implemented as the canonical morphism $S_n \to S_n/[S_n,S_n] \cong \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$.
some people define the signum this way.
03:03
@DavidWheeler so the set $\{\gamma(t)\}$ is the set $C$, and $\gamma^*$ is the directed set of $C$?
@tb What am I ? Moron. Which fact you put in there was not used in my answer, just rephrase that and I won't know?
Just ... me.
Thank you @tb
@KannappanSampath that's the point Qiaochu is making according to my understanding.
(you asked what he was saying)
Yeah, the arguments are the same in some sense. But, not equivalent. We cannot prove one from the other right?
For instance, knowing that $S_n'$ is $A_n$ cannot tell me that automorphisms preserve parity.
hhh
hhh
$\int_0^{1-x}\int_0^1(xy+y^2)dx dy$, I think I need here the basic rule of calculus? The border is the tricky part, thinking...
and in fact, every 3-cycle is a commutator, isn't that true?
03:07
@DavidWheeler true, there in my answer there: $[(ab),(ac)]=(abc)$
@tb Was I right about the fact that arguments are not equivalent?
@KannappanSampath well, since the commutator subgroup is a characteristic subgroup, all automorphisms must preserve it. Now if you define parity (the signum) as the element $\pm 1$ in the abelianization, it follows tautologically that automorphisms preserve parity.
hhh
hhh
Yes, 1st fundamental theorem of calculus :)
!!!
$a \mapsto sign(a)$
It is not quite clear to me how you can derive 2) from 3) (so I do not fully understand what Q. is saying).
For me both are not clear. I should parse this slowly.
I am not seeing what you say...can you please rephrase it?
I get your claims about Comm. subgroup and char. subgroup.
Let $\phi(a)=b,\;\; \phi$ an isomorphism. Claim: sign(a)=sign(b)
This means, I need to prove $a$ and $b$ are in the same coset of $S_n'$
So, now how do we go?
03:18
Well, $\phi: S_n \to S_n$ is a bijection and sends $A_n$ to itself. Thus it must send $S_n \smallsetminus A_n$ to itself as well.
This means $\phi$ fixes the two cosets.
Yes, Bah, that is tautology. :)
Thank you.
I should frequently think about groups; I have started to slow down. :/
i find it interesting that "commuting" a group is functorial, but "centering" is not
Now, the other part: if we have that automorphisms preserve parity, how do we prove $S_n'=A_n$
Isn't it enough to prove that, for every three cycle there is an isomorphism $\phi$ such that $\phi(a)=b$ and $a \circ b^{-1}$ is a three cycle?
@tb ^
And, there's always those transpositions that can be interchanged...
It seems to me that that is enough. However this seems a bit more difficult than the other direction (you also need to know that $A_n$ is generated by $3$-cycles).
it appears that $S_6$ is the only situation worth worrying about
@tb for n >2, that is
$A_2$ doesn't have any 3-cycles :P
03:27
@tb which we'd expect, because in a $\iff$, one direction is usually hard...no?
@DavidWheeler the empty set generates the trivial subgroup :P
@tb oh, foo!
but yes, that IS the smallest subgroup that contains the empty set
@KannappanSampath maybe... anyway, I think the answer is fine as it is.
but, Qiaochu's point is a good perspective, \me thinks.
@tb Thank you, if that is a compliment. :)
@KannappanSampath that was the intention, yes :)
03:34
BTW, I left a comment for Qiaochu.
And, @David Something in me tells me that $S_6$ is nothing special...in this context.
(It has an outer aut. but who cares here?)
@DavidWheeler thanks for helpin' (and your patience).
Now, I should have breakfast and think about Jordan again. BBL folks. @tb @David Bye and take care.
bye @Kannappan!
@Jeff one thing you should check: if $g: [a,b] \to [c,d]$ is an increasing continuously differentiable function then $\int_{c}^d |\dot{\gamma}(t)|\,dt = \int_{a,b} |(\gamma \circ g)'(t)|\,dt$. "The arc length integral does not depend on the parameterization".
(of course, I assume that $g(a) = c$ and $g(b) = d$ and $\gamma: [c,d] \to \mathbb{C}$ is a $C^1$-parameterization)
sweet potato french fries are awesome!
@Kannappan: how are things? did you get the JNF?
@DavidWheeler I love them, too
03:46
@everyone i think if we put Jordan into normal form, he'd be nilpotent
@DavidWheeler whenever possible, I order them instead of regular.
@robjohn just had them with some habenero hotwings...man, life is good!
@DavidWheeler :-) I'm not much for the hot wings, but I do agree about the sweet potato fries
well i like habenero anything
Try the fries with honey mustard dressing.
03:49
i used to be able to get this hawaiian honey mustard that was to die for...now i can't find it anywhere....sux0r
I've been trying to pick random points on a unit sphere, then I found this cool article: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SpherePointPicking.html
in the end, there is a method that uses "Gaussian random variables". Could someone tell me what are they?
@DavidWheeler that sounds yummy
@lvella Yeah.
just a sec
@tb why the caveat that g be increasing?
@DavidWheeler well, you don't want to do backtracking... (but decreasing would work as well)
@lvella Look at the Box-Muller algorithm
@lvella You can also take a look at this post
@lvella Let me know if you have any questions.
or breathe :-)
04:05
@robjohn sometimes monologizing here can be frustrating, isn't it? :)
@tb Hey, it's a living ;-)
If I take 3 uniformly distributed random numbers from -n to n and build a vector (x, y, z) = V, is it quick to see that $V \over |V|$ is not uniformly distributed over the sphere? Because I don't know why it isn't...
@lvella If you take [x,y,z] where each x, y, and z are uniformly distributed, then the corners of the cube get more weight when mapped to the sphere.
You need to take normally distributed (gaussian) variables. Well, you don't need to, but they work.
ok, now I saw
back after breakfast. Wondering about an interpretation of JNF ? Will someone tell me if this interpretation is right?

> JNF says any matrix can be written as sum of diagonal and nilpotent matrices, right?
04:10
@KannappanSampath is similar to
@KannappanSampath diagonaliz*able*
@robjohn I get this .... Right.
@tb diagonal*izable* :-)
@tb $$A\sim\begin{pmatrix}J_{\lambda_1}&0&\cdots&0\\0&J_{\lambda_2}&&\vdots\\\vdots&& \ddots &0\\0&\cdots&0&J_{\lambda_n} \end{pmatrix}$$
I was just going to mention the \ddots
04:17
@robjohn :)
@KannappanSampath too many characters, so some garbage spacing was inserted.
@KannappanSampath looks like a Jordan matrix, yes :)
Oh, I see.
I have a problem writing block matrices, Hmph.
@KannappanSampath It looks good to me.
@KannappanSampath why do you ping me with that?
04:20
But, basically, this is what I want to say, why not diagonal matrix with some $\lambda_1$'s some $\lambda_2$'s and so on. and the nilpotent part as all 1's that come on top of that?
Why diagonalizable...?
@KannappanSampath because the diagonal part is only similar to the matrix for which it is the JNF
@BenjaminLim hey oh!
04:23
@robjohn So, basically $A$ is similar to the sum of a diagonal and nilpotent matrix, then?
@KannappanSampath yes, which makes it the sum of a diagonalizable matrix and a nilpotent matrix.
You can write $A = D + N$ where $D$ is diagonalizable and $N$ is nilpotent. To see this, note that $A = SJS^{-1}$ and write $J = D' + N'$ (diagonal + nilpotent part). Then $D = SD'S^{-1}$ is diagonalizable (but not diagonal in general) and $N = SN'S^{-1}$ is nilpotent
@tb Does it not seem clear that if we have a family of submodules $M_i$ such that for each pair $i,j$ there is $k$ such that $M_i + M_j \subseteq M_k$, $i \leq j$ to mean $M_i \subseteq M_j$ and $\mu_{ij} M_i \to M_j$ to mean just inclusion then $\varinjlim M_i = \bigcup M_i$?
Because what are even the maps $\tau_i$ out of $M_i \to \bigcup M_i$, they are just inclusion maps no?
@tb Nice. Right.
I get that idea.
Is it not then clear that $\tau_i = \tau_j \circ \mu_{ij}$?
04:27
Well, is it clear or not? :)
So, is this interpretation useful?
@tb I dunno it seems as plain as daylight to me!!
@robjohn direct limits are treating me better
@BenjaminLim that's good. I will have to look at them.
@robjohn There was a lot of confusing stuff hanging around here and there
@KannappanSampath well, it's very useful. One can also show that this decomposition is in fact unique.
04:30
But now whenever I wanna show something is the direct limit of something else, I just chuck in the universal property
@BenjaminLim I'm sorry if I added to the confusion. I was flippant and glib at times.
@BenjaminLim so, check everything in full detail...
@tb well the $\tau_i$ are all well defined clearly
suppose we take $x_i \in M_i$
then $\tau_i(x_i)$ is just viewing $x_i$ as an element in $\bigcup M_i$
But then $\tau_j (\mu_{ij}(x_i)$ is first viewing $x_i$ as an element of $M_j$, then as an element of $\bigcup M_i$
is this not almost a tautology?
Perhaps we may need to check that $\bigcup M_i$ is an $A$ - module
the only non-trivial thing to check is closure under addition
but then if we take $y$ and $z$ in $\bigcup M_i$, then $y \in M_k$ for some $k$ and $z \in M_j$ for some $j$ Then $y+z \in M_j + M_k$. But we are guaranteed the existence of some $l\geq j,k$ such that $M_j + M_k \subseteq M_l$. Hence $y+z \in M_l \subset \bigcup M_i$.
So, now you have checked that you have a directed system and maps from it to the union. Now does the union have the universal property?
yeah
LIke I said we have maps $\tau_i : M_i \to \bigcup M_i$ such that $\tau_i = \tau_j \circ \mu_{ij}$
in the paragraph after you said "so, check everything in full detail...."
04:40
well the very definiton of diagonalizable is that there IS an $S$ with $SDS^{-1}$ diagonal
@BenjaminLim but that's not the universal property
for me, JNF is to "diagonal" as rref is to "invertible"
rref?
reduced row-echelon form
sheesh. all those complicated names for trivialities :)
04:43
JNF you try to get as diagonal as possible, rref you try to get "as much like the identity" as possible
both strategies have interesting failures :)
@BenjaminLim so, what's up?
@DavidWheeler wonderful German name: die reduzierte Zeilenstufennormalform...
at least it's better than rational canonical form...ick!
the reduced line-step-normal-form?
Zeile = row, but yes.
germans should be prohibited by law from forming words with more than 12 letters
there are various names, according to Wikipedia: Zeilenstufenform, Zeilennormalform, Stufengestalt, Staffelgestalt, Treppenform or Treppennormalform
A host of such obscenities can be found in this MO thread
hm. seems like ben got lost in a universal property.
04:54
when i first took linear algebra, the prefix "eigen-" was never used
so what did you call an eigenvector?
we used "characteristic vectors" and "characteristic values"
I see. As if there weren't enough mathematical concepts bearing the name characteristic...
oh, it makes perfect sense now...but for a time there i was like: what in the HELL are these people talking about?
I thought LA was heavenly.... :P
04:58
i almost failed vector calculus....i was used to "x", "y" and "z", and i didn't know what in the sam hill these $e_1,e_2$ thingies were
when it hit me that $e_1$ was the "i" vector....a light went on....
heh :)
much later, i realized that i,j and k unit vectors must have been hold-overs from a hamiltonian view of things...quaternions fell out of style rather quickly, i'm afraid
they might have had a better chance of surviving if Hamilton hadn't decided to build a whole religion out of it. The opposition to that religion was very strong.
I like @David's Mathematical rants because they sometime have deep conception there...rref and JNF is one such example. :-)
lol, it's because my brain-space is limited...if i don't make analogies i forget stuff
if i could learn category theory, i could forget more stuff
05:09
well, at least we know he's not celibate, right?
@anon I flagged a question for the mod and left a comment on his question.
meh
@KannappanSampath I often vote too localized when a guy just cranks out one homework question after the other. The rationale being the day after tomorrow (or later today) when he's handed in the copied solution he won't give ... about the answer.
@tb True. You have a point there...
05:19
so tb, explain the comma category to me
because i just don't get it
Think of pointed spaces.
like $(X,x_0)$?
yes. you have the category of spaces (or sets). Now let $\ast$ be the one-point set.
An object in the comma-category under $\ast$ is a space together with a map $\ast \to X$, that is another way of putting $(X,x_0)$.
ok, a terminal object (but since we have a distinguished point, is this 0-object?)
Now a morphism of pointed spaces is a morphism $f: (X,x_0) \to (Y,y_0)$ such that $f(x_0) = y_0$.
05:24
slight interruption...do many authors use "1" to denote *?
yes, it's pretty common.
In arrow language this means that you have a map $f: X \to Y$ such that the triangle under $X \gets \ast \to Y$ commutes.
meaning: there's only one possible object, and 1 possible morphism
I think it comes from the category of sets: $0 = \emptyset$ is the initial object while $1 = \{\emptyset\}$ is a terminal object.
right f takes the "distinguished" point of X to the "distingushed" point of Y
So the comma category $\ast/\mathbf{Spaces}$ is the category of pointed spaces and base-point preserving maps.
05:28
ok, write that in comma notation with the up-arrow
or down-arrow, whatever
like $1 \downarrow \mathbf{Spaces}$?
ok, and "Spaces" could be "Set" or "Top", yes?
so the functor on the right is actually the identity functor, yes?
whatever you want to call a space and I suppressed the functor from the category with one object and one morphism to "Spaces" sending the object to $\ast$.
yes, the functor on the right is just the identity functor.
so that construction says: "pick a point, any point". good, now you have a special point, because you picked it
ok, but that's just one example....i need a bigger picture
like slices and co-slices....
so this was an example of a co-slice.
05:37
because the arrows went away from *?
yes.
ok, so now show me a slice
vector bundles over a given base manifold.
(well, maybe that gets too complicated, it's not simply a slice.)
the only vector bundles i have any familiarity with are tangent spaces of a manifold
@tb Sorry
power blackout here the modem and everything else went out
@tb What I quoted was not the universal property?
If you have maps $\tau_i$ out of $M_i$ to $\bigcup M_i$ such that $\tau_i = \tau_j \mu_{ij}$
then there is a unique homomorphism $\varphi$ from $\varinjlim M_i$ to $\bigcup M_i$
05:45
But that's still not the universal property!
that is no?
You want to check: given compatible maps $M_i \to N$ then there's a unique map $\bigcup M_i \to N$. Now state this in detail!
don't we need something to factor through something else?
Ben's got a family $M_i$ of submodules of a fixed module $M$ such that for each $i,j$ there exists $k$ such that $M_i + M_j \subset M_k$. He wants to check that $\bigcup M_i$ is the colimit of $M_i$.
um...in this case the compatible maps factor through the $\tau_i$ yes?
05:50
@tb What is $N$
@tb The direct limit of a directed system $\{M_i, \mu_{ij}\}$ is the unique module up to isomorphism $\varinjlim M_i$ satisfying the following universal mapping property:
if our unique map is "f" and our map $M_i \to N$ is say $\sigma_i$ shouldn't $\sigma_i = f\circ \tau_i$?
@tb Ah ok
I got confused
Ok ok okok
we already showed that we have maps $\tau_i : M_i \longrightarrow \bigcup M_i$ such that $\tau_i = \tau_j \circ \mu_{ij}$
yes. Now gimme that darn universal property already! :)
@tb Sorry man.
(chuckles a little)
we need to show that if we have compatible maps $\sigma_i : M_i \rightarrow N$
is that just the directed system property Ben just gave?
05:55
such that $\sigma_i = \sigma_j \mu_{ij}$
then there is a unique linear map from $L$from $\bigcup M_i$ to $N$.
@tb That is it.
yes. So? is that fulfilled?
lemme check
@tb we can do this
take an element $x \in \bigcup M_i$
then it is in at least one $M_j$ so we can define $L(x) = \sigma_j(x)$
now we need to check it is well defined
yes.
is it fair to define this map as $L(\tau_i(x)) = \sigma_i(x)$
i'm just trying to make sure the domains agree
but where does $x$ live?
06:05
($\sigma_i$ isn't defined on $\bigcup M_i$)
@DavidWheeler well the $\tau_i$ are just inclusions
i'm being "pedantic" you can ignore it :)
but suppose x is also in $M_k$, we need to check we get the same value in $N$ right?
@DavidW: your pedantry has the defect that $L$ won't be defined on the correct domain :)
@tb you sure? L is defined on the co-domain of $\tau_i$?
06:10
yes
$L$ must be defined on $\bigcup M_i$.
@DavidWheeler we need to check now that $\sigma_i(x) = \sigma_k(x)$
isn't that the co-domain of the $\tau_i$?
L's argument is the image of one of the tau's, not x.
06:11
we want to show that $\bigcup M_i$ is the colimit, so we want to map out of it.
the way i defined it, $L: \bigcup M_i \to N$
@DavidWheeler that is right
guys what is all the fuss?
we just need to check now that $\sigma_i(x) = \sigma_j(x)$
my x and Ben's x aren't the same...HIS x doesn't make that much sense for the sigma's but i understand
No fuss. We're waiting for you to complete the argument and we're killing time...
choose $k$ such that $k \geq i,j$
06:14
what are i, j
but wait: now we can use the "mu's"
then $\sigma_i(x) = \sigma_k\mu_{ik}(x)$
but then $\mu_{ik}(x)$ is just $x$ viewed as an element of $M_k$
yes.
and $\sigma_j(x) = \sigma_k \mu_{jk}(x)$. The R.H.S. is just $x$ viewed as an element of $M_k$
so therefore from here we conclude that $\sigma_i(x) = \sigma_j(x)$
by definition of $L$, it is a homomorphism
now there's still something missing...
06:17
so we need to check that the $\sigma_i$ uniquely determine $L$
exactly
(by the way, why exactly is it that $L$ is a homomorphism?)
because $L$ is defined using $\sigma_i$ that is a homomorphism
um, because each $\sigma_i$ is
@BenjaminLim I'm not happy with this answer.
06:19
given $x,y \in \bigcup M_i$ why is $L(x + y) = L(x) + L(y)$?
@tb there is a $k$ such that $x,y \in M_k$
so that we can say $L(x+y) = \sigma_k(x+y)$
But then $L(x) + L(y)$ is just $\sigma_k(x) + \sigma_k(y)$
suppose in the beginning that $x \in M_i$ and $y \in M_j$
then $L(x) = \sigma_i(x)$ and $L(y) = \sigma_j(x)$
But then since already $k \geq i,j$
yes. You agree that there's a bit more to it than just "because each $\sigma_i$ is a homomorphism"? You use that the system is directed and that you've already shown that $L$ is well-defined as a map of sets.
we have that $\sigma_i (x) = \sigma_k(x) \mu_{ik}(x)$ which "is" just $\sigma_k(x)$
@tb Fair enough.
Remains to check uniqueness..
my hazy idea is this: as the i get bigger, we get "closer to" an uber-thingy which swallows them all....
06:25
@DavidWheeler I kinda like to imagine $\varinjlim M_i$ as some "thing" at "infinity"
well, i see it as at "the top" because EVERYTHING might be a subset of some given thing to start with
what they call a "1" in lattices....
@tb Like this
we already know that $L$ is such that $L \circ \tau_i = \sigma$
suppose we have another map $\phi$ that does this
then $L \circ \tau_i = \sigma_i = \phi \circ \tau_i$
So that for all $i \in I$ and any $x \in M_i$ we have that $(L - \phi)\tau_i(x) = 0$
but then $\tau_i$ is just inclusion so this means that $(L - \phi)(x) = 0$ for all $x \in M_i$ so that $L - \phi$ is the zero map
@tb hence $L = \phi$
yep. Just a bit of beautification: what exactly does the subtraction do here? Nothing. If $x \in \bigcup M_i$ then there's $j$ such that $x \in M_j$ but then $L\circ \tau_j (x) = \sigma_j(x) = \varphi \circ \tau_j(x)$, so $L$ and $\varphi$ agree on $M_j$. Since $x$ was arbitrary, we're done.
this seems a lot like a co-product.....
a coproduct is a special case of a colimit.
A colimit is kind of a coproduct with additional relations.
06:33
that's what the $\mu_{ij}$ are for, isn't it?
yes.
@tb why can't we have the subtraction bit happening?
phewwwwwwwwww
see? if i knew all about co-limits, then this would just be a "special case".....
@BenjaminLim we can, but it doesn't add to the argument. What'd you do if there were no subtraction around?
well you would say what you said
06:34
Ockham's razor, so to speak.
@tb, you mean L and $\phi$ agree on $M_j$ for each $j$, right?
well because I could have just said that $L \tau_j(x)$ "is just" $L(x)$
and similarly for $\phi$
so since they agree on any $x $ in any $M_i$ we are done
@DavidWheeler that is it
now...what i'd like to see, is an argument that doesn't use any "x's", right?
because the universality of the direct limit ought to be strong enough
you're gonna have difficulties doing that, we wanted to identify a concrete implementation of the colimit with the abstract gadget.
oh, just because someone somewhere wanted to know it actually EXISTED
06:40
Morning everyone.
hi matt
@tb @DavidWheeler I'm feeling more comfortable now with direct limits!!
Oops. Sounds as if I need to run to catch up. : )
@tb Atiyah Macdonald c'est mon baptême du feu!!!
@MattN baptism of fire
06:44
Yes I looked up baptême but it still makes no sense to me : )
loosely: trial by fire...literally baptism of fire
What trial by fire? Is it like boyscouts stuff?
Like "I dare you to eat this cup of worms then you're one of us"?
it refers to a soldier becoming a man by living through his first battle
Ok, thanks. : )
i know all sorts of weird crap....i'm selling it all off now to make room for more math. discount rates!!!!
06:50
Let's see what you have...
ok thanks guys
I'm off now!!
See you!
And me too. Bbl
 
2 hours later…
09:03
Is $k[[x,y]]$ the same as $k[x,y]$ in this one? And $(x,y) = (x,y) R$?
@MattN no it isn't. $k[[x,y]]$ is the ring of formal power series in two variables.
(yes for the second question).
 
1 hour later…
10:14
@tb I see. Thanks!
 
1 hour later…
11:42
I love the tax service.
Rob
Rob
@JonasTeuwen What is there to love?
Where would any of us be without them?
Rob
Rob
Is that something to love?
I love the fact that my country has a good education system, a good healthcare system, good social welfare, a good police force, good roads and so on. This is a consequence, in a sense, of the existence of the tax service. So maybe I don't love the tax service itself, but I love its effects.
@Rob They gave me almost 1000 EUR.
@DavidWallace And that too... 8-).
11:56
@JonasTeuwen Aha, but how much did you give them first?
@tb: are you around?

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