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00:01
Crap. I just checked and I accidentally upvoted OPs comment instead of the one below it.
Good night boys.
man I am stupid
I tried to optimize a box without taking the derivative
I failed that test for sure
I needed an A on this test to get an A in this class and I needed an A to get the minimum gpa requirement for transfer
I cant do anything right on a test for some reason, after reason rolle's theorem and mean value theorem for several hours I forgot it on the test, after doing optimization problems for days I forgot how to do them on the test, I couldnt figure out zeroes for anything
Maybe you have test anxiety.
that just comes from not studying enough probably
also I am pretty bad at math but that shouldnt matter with how much I study
00:15
do you have problems with the algebra or just the calculus
all of it
maybe the class you are in is too advanced in that case. it'd be hard to grapple with new concepts while struggling with the old ones as well
well this is my 6th semester of math
00:29
in college?
yes
I did pre algebra, college algebra twice, trig, calc 1 twice
why are you torturing yourself? :p
I dont know what else to do
00:51
I really want to be good at math, it is a life long goal of mine. I was always told as a kid that I was bad at math because I was good at other things so I sort of gave up on math and was put in special math classes where I basically never learned any math in school at all
leo
leo
01:07
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez, what happen with the stared link, I was informed that: The post you were looking for might have been deleted or merged into another question but that don't satisfies my curiosity
:-)
some guy claimed to have solved like 6 open problems
leo
leo
I should say :-O
bathe in the majesty, you might as well stop your mathematics career now, this guy is gonna clean house on the problems :)
leo
leo
01:21
What a prodigy!
you guys sound jealous
i'm jealous of that guy's handwriting, if that's what you mean.
leo
leo
He solves all the problems that I always dreamed to solve!
you guys sound jelly
I wish he would have solved the euler equations, tbh.
leo
leo
01:25
@Jordan Is the good jealousy, not the other :-)
the papers are in Word! Without the equation editor!
too busy doing math to learn TeX :)
leo
leo
indeed
college is such a waste of time
I have to take a year of spanish, 2 years of electives, a year and half of physics, womens studies, a year of chemistry and some other crap just to be able to start to learn what I want to
You have to take a Women's Studies course?
this is an outrage!
what is this, the 21st century? :)
What do you want to study anyway.
Hey, Tyler, I saw that you asked a question on mathematical writing a while ago. Did you find anything beyond what was mentioned in the comments?
01:38
Oh, I forgot about that.
I found a link on the overflow forums with a lot of information
Could you dig that up, please? I'd be interested in having a look.
@Tyler computer science
Why do you need to take all of that BEFORE you take any computer science?
because I have to prove to the college that I can handle college before I can go to college
not sure if you are from the US but they like to make it incredibly hard on transfer students because transfer students are a waste of a student because they make the university look worse by accepting them
@t.b. I believe this (mathoverflow.net/questions/1243/how-to-write-math-well) is it. It's got a few good pieces of advice and sources
01:44
I know I am being a whiny baby but I am really upset about all this
I am from the US. I wasn't a transfer student, so I don't know how any of that works.
Its hard, I will be in my 30s before I graduate
@TylerBailey Great, thanks! I love the comments to the top voted answer :)
I'm pretty guilty of doing that for my homeworks :p
What, writing things up?
01:48
yeah
I wish my students weren't lying if they said that...
do they just hand in scratch paper??
those with voting powers could look at math.stackexchange.com/questions/130284/… ...
:P
I dont see a problem
You also do not see a problem in your constant whining...
01:52
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Speaking of which: seen this? math.stackexchange.com/questions/34958
I really do not
@t.b, a long time ago
it looks like a random collection of problems
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez oh, I thought you could cast the third vote to deletion (as you suggested in a comment) without having to invoke any superpowers.
:)
@TylerBailey well, yes. Scratch paper is more the rule than the exception. Coffee stains aren't too rare either. On the other hand I'm glad that not too many type their results up (I always implore them not to do that).
01:58
Haha oh boy. What class(es) are you teaching currently?
I mean, it must be tough if they need to coffee!
At the moment I'm on leave, so I don't teach. We usually have homework for them to hand in during the first three years (roughly until they get their B.Sc.), afterwards they have to write some short texts, those aren't too coffee-endangered.
that is so euro
what does that mean?
you said leave
americans dont get leave
Oh, just have them do homework until you can trust them to do it on their own!
02:07
you never can
They can
professors go on sabbatical or whatever
or get time off teaching to pursue their research
research is such bullshit
pay $6,000 for a class so a teacher can do research and write papers to get tenure and be taught by a child in a class of 300
Do you want me to ban you from this room?
02:14
how is what I said wrong?
It is true
my classes are <30
they are upper level courses, but it is still at a large university.
I don't think I have seen you say anything ontopic, Jordan
what university?
I ask math questions all the time in here
but I guess my math is too low level for here
university of minnesota
never in my presence, then
I propose you only do that, then
02:16
Here is something slightly math related then, is it reasonable to ask a math teacher to be able to retake an exam before I get the grade on it?
@TylerBailey Minnesota has pretty rough winters, I heard.
Well, I don't have much to compare it to, i've had midwest winters all my life! But some years the blizzards are pretty rough.
Oh I live in Minnesota
This year's was extremely mild though, luckily
U of M only has like 3,000 teachers though
02:19
and what, 30,000 undergraduates? :)
50,000 I thought
Are the winters not very bad in Europe, @t.b.?
52,000
those aren't all undergraduates though.
Well, I lived a few years in the mountains of Switzerland, I had my share of blizzards and avalanches... But somehow I find the winters here in the flatlands much tougher. This year was particularly awful. Some guys in Siberia sent cold air for about a month. It was about 10 centigrade colder than usual.
02:20
I have been trying to apply there for like a year but I have zero chance of getting into the U of M I think, it is too difficult
I mean in the mountains there's some use for the snow and cold. Here it's just a nuisance.
The wind is really what gets you, and if there are no mountains to block it...!
Tyler, how bad are the other schools in Minnesota? Any idea
how bad??
in what sense?
I think apart from the wind it's the humidity that is much higher here than in the mountains.
So it feels much colder.
02:23
Well are there any other schools in the state worth looking at for science and engineering? Not sure where you teach
I don't teach, I'm a student. I don't know a whole lot about the other schools, to be honest. I think no matter where you go, the most important part is probably making connections and doing well, so you have people you can use as references when you try to find a job.
doing an internship or something helps
So I am probably like 6 years older than you but 4 years behind in school :P
given your feelings on research, i'd not recmomend that
I give up on editing that^
02:28
If you could recmomend anything I'd love to see how.
I just think the purpose of a school should be education
@anon: do you think this is off-topic? It is slightly mathematical in that it is type theory but it certainly is borderline.
did you get into the U of M right from high school?
Yeah, it looks off-topic to me.
02:30
yeah that helps so much, my brother got in right out of high school with mediocre grades and I have zero chance of getting in with decent grades as transfer
Well, lambda calculus, maybe not.
I really messed up by going into the military, colleges hate vets
Please, tell us more about your mediocrity
@TylerBailey Isn't Michael Hardy at the University of Minnesota? Do you happen to know him?
Ok, if an admin is asking
02:36
He's from Minneapolis, I've never met him though.
I've never even heard about him before I joined here and happened to click on his profile.
I am 27 and after 6 semester of math I am getting an average grade in my calculus class that I am taking for a second time
tyler you live near campus?
I live in uptown, like 30 minutes from there
02:40
I don't think most of my professors have much of an internet presence. I have seen Paul Garret post here and on MO a few times, and he is at UMN.
That's about it
So you had classes with Paul Garrett? His homepage is really really cool, tons of interesting notes.
I'm very glad that people like him post here and on MO.
My google searches have linked to that guys notes probably more than any other person.
Oh no, I haven't been that lucky. I wish I had. He's the only one I recognized on here as being a professor at my school as well.
I really didn't take as many math classes as I should have. don't tell any one :)
will keep a secret
@anon, what do you find? course notes?
02:47
It is so weird, Columbia is easier to get into than the U of M
yes
I know someone who got accepted to columbia and the U of M turned them down, pretty hilarious
Well, from Zurich there aren't that many people active here either. Christian Blatter is one of the very few. He's the prof who gave the first lecture I attended at university.
There are a lot of people here that I wouldn't mind having as professors, though, if i'm being honest!
Have you met any of the users at conferences or other places, @t.b.?
I got a B on a math test once, I am so positive
02:55
I'm only sure about two other people here. One was a student of mine when I was in Göttingen and the other here in Zürich. I have a few suspicions about others and of course I know a few people on MO.
I think that's really great. The idea that you can interact with your mathematical heroes or whatever, even when it physically isn't possible. Makes me feel good :p
Especially since most of them seem like nice people.
Ahh... one fourier analysis problem to go... hopefully this isn't the one that drives me crazy :)
My impression was that it is always possible to talk to people about math as long as you share some interests. There are of course idiots as everywhere, but most people are pretty approachable. And many of the heroes I met don't like to be treated as heroes :)
I'm trying to prove that an arbitrary intersection of compact sets is compact. I have shown that all sets are closed, however I'm attempting to show that the interesection is also bounded.
It seems somewhat trivial, but I want ot make sure that my proof is rigorous.
If you take any of your compact sets then the intersection is a subset of it, and subsets of bounded sets are bounded!
I found this proof, however it doesn't seem right to me. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14986544/Compactness.PNG

The part where is states that it exists that all $M_i$ are finite doesn't seem true to me.
03:07
Indeed, that doesn't seem to make sense.
Because if you have infinite sets then you would have infinite $M_i$'s.
rigt?
The second paragraph of the proof is pretty wrong but you can fix it easily.
@arete The maximum could be a supremum and indeed, it could be infinite.
But the thing is this: let $i_0$ be arbitrary. If $x \in \bigcap_i C_i$ then $x \in C_{i_0}$ in particular. Thus, $|x| \leq M_{i_0}$. But this holds for every $x$ in the intersection, hence the intersection is bounded.
Man I think I ruined my changes in college with that test yesterday, is there any other way to drop classes or get them off your transcript?
you are about to be suspended for 30 minutes
03:22
60, in fact, because it has to be a number of hours
04:13
math.stackexchange.com/a/130238/2465 how did this get upvoted?
it is actually a correct answer...
Haha... I guess...
@TylerBailey @MarianoSuárezAlvarez Hi
So I am interested in learning dynamic and complex networks (economics, finance, industry and organization and more)
And also building large scale simulations and models. What areas of mathematics could I pursue to have some concrete foundation
I zeroed in on the following: Graph Theory, Probability, Control Theory, Game Theory, a whole lot of statistics and a good knowledge of algebra and calculus. Is this OK?
04:20
It sounds like a good start :p
You might want to go all the way up to and including differential equations as far as calculus is concerned. That looks like a good foundation.
yeah. if you're going to learn any dynamical systems you'll probably need to know differential equations
if $A$ is a Noetherian integral ring, closed in its field of fractions $K$. and $L$ is a separable extension of $K$ such that $B$ is the integral closure of $A$ and $L$, I want to show that $B$ is a finite module over $A$. i can show that there is a basis $\{v_1,\dots,v_n\}$ of $L$ over $K$ such that $B\subset \sum_1^n Av_i$. I feel like I should be done, but i don't see how I can exploit Noetherianess directly
I guess $B$ would be a subset of a Noetherian ring and would thus be Noetherian
can someone confirm that i'm not being stupid, that my argument is ok?
you seem to think that a subring of a noetherian ring is noetherian?
@anon @Tyler To be honest, I don't know calculus but have decent knowledge in Algebra. I have given a period of 2 years to get better at it. Am I on the right track?
And can you just brief (or give an example) of how differential equations can be or used in dynamical systems
04:31
dynamical systems are differential equations
up to details
And what more areas do I need to cover (I need to gain expert knowledge in these fields)
honestly, I don't think this line of questions is useful at all
you need to know calculus, algebra, analysis, differential equations, a bit of functional analysis
@Uber eg tutorial.math.lamar.edu/Classes/DE/Modeling.aspx (these are standard academic examples)
your description of what you propose to learn is sufficiently inespecific that it is hard to say something more precise than «you will need to know lots of math»
@Mariano, i guess i should say that $B$ is finitely generated. i think there is a theorem that submodules of a Noetherian module are finitely generated
04:35
some numerical stuff couldn't hurt
that is the definition of Noetherian modules, almost :D
@Mariano, then you agree with that modified observation that my proof is fine, yes?
thanks
@anon Thanks for the link
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I am interested simulations in the area of quant financing and state policies (economics). How economic policies affects people, how systems interact with each other? How to find the important links in a system? Network analysis in highly inter-connected and complex systems? I want to grasp the basic ideas within the next 2 years(just a intuitive time scale) so that I could start doing something concrete
04:43
That's immensely inespecific :D
given that description, I can but say «study lots of math»
in fact, that blurb seems to call for more math than what an average PhD in math does
«Network analysis in highly inter-connected and complex systems» sounds like something from a commercial :)
Oops:) Where can i start? In short, I want to blend economics,I/O psychology with mathematics
The natural place to start (mathematically) is calculus.
do you know any economics, psychology or math?
I am decent with economics and commerce (together with some decent knowledge of programming), know something about psychology and have always approached maths (till now) to solve exam problems
by economics I mean actual mathematical economy
04:49
I mostly work with enterprise data (albeit at a smaller level) on costs,price, product specific and market information (data analysis) and I want to move to the next level
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Can't understand "by economics I mean ctual mathematical economy"
mathematical economy is the mathematical study of economic models
I think you are seriously understimating the complexity of an enterprise such as the study of «how economic policies affects people, how systems interact with each other?»
No! Just economic concepts of demand,supply,equilibrium,interest,money separately
IMHO you should pick a subject —math, economics— and study it in depth
when you know it, start to try connecting it to another
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I don't think so. Most complexity problems are NP-complete and I am amazed by its sheer complexity and size that I got interested in it and want to explore more(I am 28+, I have just started getting serious around 6 months back)
the problem, otherwise, is setting up goals for yourself that are, in all likelyhood, beyond the capabilities of Man As We Know It, and will be for the next few hundred years
we are barely able to model a couple of proteins
let alone how economic policies affects people
04:55
you sound like one of them climate change denialists @mariano
My major areas of interest are Artificial Intelligence(AI) and Complex dynamical Systems. It took me some time to realize that I needed a heavy dose of mathematics to start designing things (but am still not sure of what's needed except for the list I dished out at the beginning)
repent
what do you understand by «Complex dynamical Systems»?
So far I have understood!
what do you mean by that, I mean
04:57
Complex - the systems are highly inter-related with no uniform relationships
Dynamical - They are subject to changed by both internalities and externalities and they can't be static
I am sorry, this is not going to go anywhere
I'll just drop it
Systems - Interactions between the systems
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Ok mate! thanks for the chat. Hope I amn't too boring (be honest with your comment on this)
I think what you say sounds right out of a commercial
buzzwords
it reminds me of what was called a few decades ago General Systems Theory
As Wikipedia puts it, «Systems theory is the interdisciplinary study of systems in general, with the goal of elucidating principles that can be applied to all types of systems at all nesting levels in all fields of research»
05:00
economics and mathematics don't mix well
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez To be specific, one of my first exercises is to try to map cellular automata with real-time graphs
@EricGregor But an economist and a mathematician can blend well
maybe for trying to make money and modeling the short term. but macroeconomics seems to be a voodoo field
the conclusion after a decade of «studies» of that was that nothing useful can be said about systems in general
@Uberme, what do you mean? maybe game theory, some short term market analysis, sure
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Hope I amn't eating your time for some junk chat
05:01
macroeconomics, no way
I would not be answering if you were
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Thank you
the field of economics is wide-open for applications of topology to it
@EricGregor I don't think so(albeit in a much broader way). Macro-economics can be modeled . The biggest problem is it contains a lot of NP complete problems (combinatorial explosion) but I believe large scale collective intelligence together with behavioral economics (and a lot of AI) could lead to a lot of new dimensions
«the field of X is wide-open for applications of topology to it» is a true statement for pretty much any value of X
05:05
@mariano the field of women's studies
«large scale collective intelligence» does not mean anything
what is the fundamental group of oppression?
you apparently have not read Lacan...
@EricGregor Can't understand what is the fundamental group of oppression?
05:05
haha, i have
(which is actually good)
this is not as bizarre as it sound....one might be interested in the density of a demographic group in a market, or what the connected components of a distributions system are
@uberme, human beings are not so predictable
the models didn't predict stagflation, for instance
oops, let's readjust those models. you play this game forever
today Stephen Smale gave a talk at my uni about mathematical biology you can bet topology has applications there
with anything that you can model mathematically you can expect topological applications
05:07
wait @mariano, not lacan
i was thinking of the sokal(sp?) hoax
that's the good spelling
lacan is some psychoanalysis guy who broke from freud
he has pages and pages about tori...
@EricGregor Exactly. But most of the economics have been theoretical. A huge shift to behavioral economics can make policies a lot better (though aggreation is always a problem)
stay away from it, though
05:08
@uberme, do you have any examples? consider me highly skeptical
@Eric Gregor well, first you fix an oppresed person in X. then you take the homotopy classes of all oppression loops that start at our oppressed person. viola!
the thing is, not all people are connected so groupoids make more sense
i though no man was an island? didn't Donne prove that?
Donne's lemma
Paul Simon reversed that theory.
@EricGregor "Maps of bounded rationality: Psychology for behavioral economics" does have a decent introduction. You can always contest me on certain points in the article though. But behavioral economics is better than theoretical economics on a case by case basis
@EricGregor To add to your skepticism, the poverty line in my country is fixed at $12.8 dollars per person per month. An example of how things could go wrong
behavioral economics gives you what insights into macroeconomics?
poverty is the norm in human history. prosperity is the rare exception
05:13
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez All problems we are talking are wicked problems - problems that must be solved to prove that they can be solved.
that's a great truism
@EricGregor Expanding our discussion may turn a bit philosophical. Still I agreee with you on the comment of poverty
behavioral economics lets you simplify reality and do math with it, but i doubt you're going to predict much of interest
the most successful application of math to economic related matters is in finance. but that's a very different kind of game
@EricGregor But poverty must be eradicated. Moving to some old theories, unless the basic needs are fulfilled (Maslow) man is always vulnerable to everything
@Ubermensch, economic conditions aren't sufficient to produce a productive society. culture and genetics plays a role
economic models don't tend to account for such things
how do you account for higher levels of trust among some people than others? higher levels of crime, corruption, capacity for learning, etc
05:17
There is a catch in behavioral economics, in fact a big catch, that modeling policies based on existing norms may turn a populist policy. Throw into it cultural differences and its already a mess
this has drifted to intense offtopicness
you sound kind of confused, @Ubermensch, like you're in the grip of some ideology
yes, you're right @MarianoSuárezAlvarez, i'll drop it
@EricGregor Most people are products of their environment and changing the environment could be a better option rather than trying to change people at the individual level (most people have tried it and have either made things worse or failed but I still believe it)
Back on topic. So any links for calculus for a beginner
i like jon rogawski's book
@EricGregor @MarianoSuárezAlvarez Thanks for the your time (and I do follow some of Nietzsche's ideals)
@EricGregor A few online links on calculus plus a software to check my answers (Is Scilab OK)
05:22
i don't know about that kind of thing. i think khan academy is supposed to be a good resource
video lectures
i think someone already linked you Paul's page tutorial.math.lamar.edu
@TylerBailey Of course, I noted it down
Paul's notes are great!
@TylerBailey @EricGregor @MarianoSuárezAlvarez and all others. Thank you and leaving now. Hope you weren't thoroughly embarrassed by me :) Would come back again
05:25
take it easy @Ubermensch
@EricGregor Cool Eric :)
05:46
'Night all.
That was a really nice answer you gave, @anon.
it's standard
Doesn't make it not nice.
what it does mean is I had to frantically format an {array} before some kind of Gerry / Brian / robjohn / Spivey came along and beat me to it
2
05:56
@DavidWallace hi not-blue-Dave
Is threatening users to flag their massages, umm, legal?
@Gigili why? do you want to flag one of mine?
In fact, we have mods threaten banning (Mariano and Jordan earlier today), so surely threatening flags should be within-bounds.
Whoops, I meant doubtful that it's illegal.
@anon some mod threatened to ban Mariano? ohmigosh!
05:59
This is the second time I see someone has done it and others kept encouraging him.
@anon mods were threatening banning Mariano?
hivemind

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