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21:09
Hi
Just to make sure about one thing.
hi everyone
Hi @Daminark
I want to discuss a question with you to see if my reasoning is correct.
Where, in your opinion, are the implicit parenthesis in the following formula, i.e. what's being multiplied by what?
I suppose that the inner sum is first calculated and then multiplied by $pi(s, a)$.
That sounds reasonable.
Thats what I would mena if I wrote that
Ok, thanks :)
21:11
yeah
thats also clear
as a is in the second sum
so it depends on a
which is the index the other sum is over.
Oh, I was confused regarding the implicit parentheses because of a piece of code I have which actually implements that formula above... Anyway, I now see why the code is implemented in the way it is :D
Anyway, that formula above is Bellman equation for the value function $V^\pi$ under policy $\pi$. Beautiful stuff.
When simple math is useful!
financial math?
i'd make a joke about financial math here, but wiki says: "In continuous-time optimization problems, the analogous equation is a partial differential equation which is usually called the Hamilton–Jacobi–Bellman equation."
@Semiclassical It's typically the subject of reinforcement learning. However, in general, this can be applied to many areas.
and I'm down with the Hamilton-Jacobi equation
@Adeek let's hear it
21:19
(I say that, but the HJE is weird)
Geometry thing I'm trying to remember:
By just reading the first sentence of the related Wiki article, it does look like so...
:D
Ive never seen Hamilton Jacobi used for anything, outsdie of grad school homeworks
Holy shit this recent Prurient album is something
Suppose I pick three vectors. Then the oriented volume of the parallelepiped formed by these vectors is is the determinant of the matrix with those vectors as solumns.
@KevinDriscoll used meaning, in physics or just that it never comes up?
21:23
@Semiclassical eheh
Because I was expecting that if it would come up anywhere, it'd be physics
@Daminark Ya I mean used as part of a solution to a research-level physics problem
But I can also form a tetrahedron with those three vectors.
How does the volume of the tetrahedron compare with the parallelepiped?
I want to say it's just 1/6. But I'm not sure...
The tetrahedron with corners at the origin, (1,0,0), (0,1,0), and (0,0,1) has volume 1/6
good @Daminark
21:25
right.
so by affine transformation it would always be 1/6 the volume of the parallelepiped
and of course googling it brings up a relevant question:
2
Q: Tetrahedron volume relation to parallelepiped and pyramid

B. LeeReading at Mathworld, I came across the subject of tetrahedrons. Particularly calculating the volume with four known vertices. There's a formula which uses the triple product to calculate the volume of a parallelepiped. I'm very aware of why the triple product represents the volume of a parallele...

Suppose $L_2 = L_2([0,1],\lambda)$ over $\mathbb{R}$, where $\lambda$ denotes the Lebesgue measure. Let $T : L_2 \rightarrow L_2$ given by $$Tf(t) = \int_{0}^t f(s) ds$$. Compute formula for the adjoint and find the norm of the adjoint.
okay @Daminark ?
Here is how we do it. We know that $(f,T^*g) = (Tf,g)$ so let us compute $(Tf,g)$
okay ?
@Daminark your here?
One second, let's see
Okay so you're looking at the Hilbert adjoint here
to go get coffee or not to go get coffee
21:35
anyway $(Tf,g) = \int_{0}^1 Tf(t) \overline{g(t)} dt = \int_{0}^1 \int_{0}^s f(s) ds dt = \int_{0}^1 \int_{0}^t f(s) ds \overline{g(t)} dt$
@Semi given that it's 3:30, and by the time you get coffee it may be 4... I dunno, maybe not
So changing the order of integration we get
@Adeek aren't you just looking at $\mathbb{R}$?
You don't need the $\overline{g(t)}$
yeah don't mind the bars
Just being super careful.
21:36
my first reaction upon reading that is to go: "wait, why is $g$ the one that's being conjugated"
if we change order of integration we have $$\int_{0}^1 f(s) \int_{s}^{1} \overline{g(t)} dt ds$$
Thus the adjoint is given by
$$T^*(g)(s) = \int_{s}^1 g(t) dt$$
in physics it's always $\langle \psi|\phi\rangle= \int_{-\infty}^\infty \psi^*(x)\phi(x)\,dx$ by convention
Strange
And wait let me be sure
$\psi^*$? Looks like a pullback to me. Don't you use differential forms in physics?
@Semiclassical ... I want to do QM next year.
@MatheinBoulomenos it is also notation for dual or adjoint
$\psi^*$ can be identified to the dual
21:38
well, it's just a different notation for complex conjugation here
by Riesz represetation theorem
Oh my lord @Mathein I didn't recognize you
$i^*=-i$
Look at this hat that I just found
@Semi I'm in pain
21:39
good @Daminark ?
is my logic above good ?
at your root canal, or at physics notation
Well I have to do the computation, so gimme a bit
Sometime tonight I will find out whether or not I get accepted to Yale
@AkivaWeinberger congrats :)
21:40
Don't congratulate me yet!
@Semi at the notation, I had a root canal when I was 7, and later had a post stuck in there, it's just both of those guys did bad jobs so this guy is fixing it
I haven't found out yet!
@Akiva Rooting for you
@AkivaWeinberger oh will congratulate you when you get in :)
21:40
Thanks
I see you have started collecting hats
Indeed
@Adeek okay I think this is good
@Daminark good
@Daminark Oh lord good luck
@Daminark I need to think about the norm now
21:42
Here's why I prefer having complex conjugation be on the first argument: When you do matrix multiplication, you typically write that as $v^Tv$ not $vv^T$
$\|\cdot\|$ies ree
I want to prove that $|T^*| \leq 1/\sqrt{2}$
i.e. $v$ as a column vector rather than as a row vector
Let $G$ be a finite group of order $p^em$ with $p\not| m$, must every subgroup of $G$ which is a $p$-group be contained in a $p$-Sylow subgroup of $G$?
I still never got around to learning Sylow
21:43
@Daminark we have $\|T\| = \|T^*\|$ so we just have to compute $\|T\|$ right ?
@Akiva it's already over, and it was completely painless
and if you wanted to take the norm of a complex vector, you'd do that as $v^\dagger v$. so it just seems more natural to put complex conjugation on the left.
@Perturbative MMSEGA
@Daminark Oh yay
I mean ofc there was a pinch when he put Anesthesia, but he said without that, I'd regret the day I was born
So not a bad tradeoff
@Semiclassical do how rigorous is QM btw ?
21:44
Anyway I just need to do a cleaning and then deal with crowns
I want to learn it next year
@Adeek yup
Depends what you mean by that.
Taught by physicists...not very.
yeah taught by physicists
21:45
On my computer at home I have a tab open to the Wikipedia page on matrix mechanics
Then probably not.
I should probably start reading it at some point
@Daminark 1 sec I will do the computations let me try and prove it
1 sec
@Daminark Did they give you morphine?
The consequences of a unbalanced tree learning approach :D
21:46
the usual physics treatment is frustrating if you want rigor (as @0celo7 will attest)
@AkivaWeinberger You should, they're super useful when dealing with finite groups
If number theory studies $\Bbb Z$ while real analysis studies $\Bbb R$, is number theory essentially a quantized version of number theory?
@Perturbative nah, there was anesthesia at the time and then ibuprofen afterwards
@Akiva yeah Sylow is good fun
And you use it a lot
(you probably meant number theory = quantized real analysis)
21:47
...Yes I did mean that
I did not sleep well this week
Or probably the week before that
I should fix that
So that's my excuse
I've yet to see an application of number theory in physics.
Combinatorics, by contrast, shows up a bunch
21:48
Does it?
ears perk up
@Daminark Suppose that $\|f\| = 1$ we have to get some bound on $\|Tf\|^2$ do you think it is better to use the norm from hilbert space or $L_2$ norm for computations ?
$L_2$ is the Hilbert space norm
i mean, suppose you've got a bunch of electrons that can either be spin-up or spin-down
21:49
@Semiclassical I remember reading "somewhere" that number theory was being applied to study black holes
yeah
yeah yeah
Then again that "somewhere" was The Man Who Knew Infinity epilogue scene
So idk about accuracy
Right so electrons can either spin this way or that way
21:50
main thing is that they'll each carry a magnetic moment, and each will point up/down
I have an idea @Daminark
@Adeek total overkill approach: embedding $L^2[0,1]$ into $L^2(\Bbb R)$ isometrically by continuation with $0$, your operator is given by convolution with a constant function $1$, so you get a bound by Young's inequality $p=r=2, q= 1$
yeahhh
@MatheinBoulomenos that is total overkill lol
so if all the electrons point up/down, you'll get a strong magnetic field pointing up/down; if half/half, then there's no net field
a big idea is that, if all the spins are chosen randomly, then the most likely outcome is that you'll get about half and half
but to derive that, you need to count how many ways there are to get $N_+$ spins pointing up out of $N=N_++N_-$ total
@MatheinBoulomenos here is good approach Suppose that $\|f\| = 1$. We compute $\|Tf\|^2 = \int_{0}^1 |Tf(t)|^2 dt = \int_{0}^1 1 * (\int_{0}^t f(t) dt)^2 dt$
21:53
ugh, hanging lines.
and I think we can we then holder inequality at this point
that's a binomial distribution, of course. in the limit of large N you get something which is approximately normal, though. (huzzah for stirling)
so understanding the counting gets you to the result.
@Mathei did you see my (probably very easy) group theory question above?
@AlessandroCodenotti no I didn't
22:00
I have a finite group $G$ of order $p^em$ with $p\not| m$ and subgroup of $G$ which is a $p$-group, must it be contained in a $p$-Sylow subgroup of $G$?
yes
that's one of the Sylow theorems
Doesn't the theorem tell me that a conjugate of the $p$-group is contained in a fixed $p$-Sylow subgroup?
just conjugate that inclusion
Oh, of course
I shouldn't do group theory late in the evening, I'm missing obvious things :P
22:04
You got in what?
@AkivaWeinberger congrats
@AlessandroCodenotti Yale
Yale University
11
Congrats, DogAteMy — I never doubted it for an instant.
Oh that's awesome! congrats!
Hi @Ted
22:05
Hi demonic Alessandro
hi @Mathei, Balarka
Hey @Ted
@AkivaWeinberger Congrats!!
hi @TedShifrin
22:11
Urgh I also have to choose where to go next year after my bachelor
@TedShifrin do you want to discuss something small in functional analysis
I am just having some small issue I need to fix.
Don't ask me, Karim.
it is very small
It's tough growing up, Alessandro. I remember when you were just a young lad :P
I'm scared of finishing my studies
I mean I don't doubt I will do a master after my bachelor, but after that? no idea
22:13
What year are you in now? @Mathei
semester 5
your doing it in same uni as one of my older supervisor who was quite weird @MatheinBoulomenos
@Alessandro: Before your driving became a lethal weapon, in particular.
Out of 6?
@TedShifrin I don't have my driver licence yet, didn't pass the exam :P
I know ... I paid off your examiner to save my life.
22:15
I likely won't finish in the recommended 6 semesters because I'm taking too much courses that interest me but I can't get credit for (because I have to take stupid stuff like numerical analysis, probability&statistics, programming projects ...)
programming objects is interesting
Hey everyone
stupid stuff which might actually be employable, you mean
I also want to write a bachelor's thesis that requires class field theory
hi Perturb
22:15
@MatheinBoulomenos Numerical Analysis is just yuck
@MatheinBoulomenos Ah I see
Hi @TedShifrin :)
there's plenty of interesting mathematics in numerical analysis
probability is also interesting
but there's no interesting mathematics in computing matrix decompostions all day
not the kind of probability I need to do
22:17
there's way too much snobbery in this room
I found a cool master's program that specializes in logic and set theory but also gives the opportunity to take a lot of geometry courses which is very tempting
Balarka is snobby about algebra for example :P
@Alessandro: The trouble with logic and set theory is that — at least in the US — there are relatively few people interested in it and so jobs are almost impossible to get.
geometry is the key @AlessandroCodenotti
forget algebra stuff
I know, I'll think about it
22:19
geometry/topology/analysis
boo algebra
algbera is great
@TedShifrin If I'm good enough (which I doubt) I'd like to be employed as a pure mathematician. I doubt computing QR decompositions is going to help me with that
all knowledge is important
@Adeek and just a few months ago you were like "Eh w/e with the geometry"
In other countries, people study "pure mathematics"
not just "mathematics"
I find it really strange that numerical analysis is required but abstract algebra isn't
@Daminark I watched all of @TedShifrin videos and My blindness was removed.
22:23
Lol
Also hey @Ted, @Balarka, @Alessandro, and @Mathein!
obligatory logan paul meme here
hi Demonark
@Mathein it may be orthogonal somewhat to your interests, but if it's any consolation, I've heard numerical analysis isn't too bad if done right
Requiring it might be excessive but still, I heard that it has a bit of functional analysis/operator stuff
@TedShifrin is right as usual
22:28
Yo @Eric
@Daminark well, yeah you consider a bunch of matrix norms, that's true
including the operator norm
@MatheinBoulomenos well to humorless people perhaps
i have been pretty clear about my personal stance about algebra
i think it's p cool
<--- quite humo(u)rless
just don't think it's the natural medium to think all of mathematics through
that gives rise to nlab pedagogy algebraists are usually accused of
22:30
I have read two books by nlab authors and they were both really good pedagogically
I have nothing against the authors
I'll give you an example
15
A: What's there to do in category theory?

Fosco LoregianThere is a majestic paper my Mac Lane MacLane, Saunders. "Possible programs for categorists." Category Theory, Homology Theory and their Applications I. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg, 1969. 123-131. whose opening line is one of the most beautiful I've ever read: Communication among Mathe...

I think this answer is bad, and propagates bad philosophy of math
It tells nobody anything about why anybody cares or should care about category theory
Arun Debray's answer is, in comparison, a lot more interesting
Excellent, great to know we're on the same page.
The book I read on category theory is like 60% examples
maybe even more
Jan 27 '15 at 1:58, by Pedro Tamaroff
With the little perspective I have, I have to agree with something someone told me: one should study category theory once one knows a load of examples of concepts of category theory. It makes no sense to learn what a projective object is in a category, or what a terminal object is, or what a universal property is, or a kernel or an equalizer if one hasn't bumped into the obvious examples of such things in the practice.
I believe in this ^
22:36
It's hard see more in it than dry formalism if you don't have examples
Interestingly, @Pedro has started answering all sorts of questions on main about differential forms. I find it tickling.
I like Pedro
He's into algebra but he appreciates math on the large
When I met him, he wasn't an algebraist.
I still think it was appropriate to start our advanced algebra course with category theory
we used it a lot
It's been many years (like 43), but I recall that the first day of our grad alg top course was partly categories and functors. I mean, that sort of is the point of alg top.
22:40
We used stuff like filtered limits and adjoint functors all the time in the course
my grad alg top class didnt really do them but he would drop category theory terminology every once in a while for people who "liked the language"
in our algebra course the category theory was essential, it was not just language
It's hard to do Abelian categories without knowing what a category is
I think a course like that would have chased me out of mathematics, Mathei.
i was quoting a dude
it was not a required course
22:42
Whereas learning algebra from Mike Artin actually got me interested ...
there are so many functors in module theory and a lot of them are adjoint to other functors
I agree adjointness should be pointed out as a general mathematical phenomenon
I think i agree with the thing @Balarka quoted
also are the hats on your icons the hats people have been talking about
@Balarka: Like my comment about $\times I$ and integration over the fiber being adjoint in some suitable sense which I don't want to think about now.
@TedShifrin: True! I remember that
22:46
Yes, @EricSilva. The things you and I haven't bothered to care about getting.
@TedShifrin we also did fun "geometric" stuff on the exercises. Like working with sheaves
LOL
cocycle conditions are everywhere
At least according to Schlag, even that's abstract nonsense
well, if Schlag ever has to patch local data together to make global, he's doing abstract nonsense, then.
22:49
Though really he doesn't actually think that
One time a while back I asked him about Riemann surfaces
I don't really care what people call "abstract nonsense" and what not
That's rather an important notion in analysis and geometry.
Schlag just thought that it was pedagogically too early to talk about sheaves
he has no problem with them
So, maybe there's a counterargument to be made here that (a group of) geometers also have a certain preference for completely pictorial and physically motivated mathematics that is hard pushing for the algebraic and symbolic-minded people out there.
Right. Pedagogy is something UC folks don't think about much :P
22:49
And he was like, not to self-promote but try my book, I think once you master that stuff, if you still like Riemann surfaces, you'd be ready for sheaves
And I don't know about that
I find of felt like Arnold's article here reinforces that view
@Balarka: I remind you that my French coauthor called me an algebraist.
@TedShifrin right except the people like Schlag
I used to like that before, but didn't consider this argument about other people's viewpoints and intuition
I bet if you talk to mathematicians of yore, then groups are abstract nonsense too
22:50
@TedShifrin Haha, really? A Frenchman?
@TedShifrin Have you read the Miranda book ?
Those are like the supreme algebraists out there
on Riemann surface
it is pretty good
Yup, @Balarka. I might have even sent you that paper ages ago.
No, Karim. I've never seen it, actually.
there are some super anti-bourbaki french dudes out there
22:51
The same Whitney umbrella thing?
Oh, Rémi is totally non-Bourbaki.
But yeah I dunno, I think the main problem becomes when people start trying to extrapolate from "my taste in math is ___ on the picture/formal spectrum" to saying that this is how it ought be for everyone
No, the paper on local Morse theory and polar varieties.
Ahh yes
that
@TedShifrin I am finishing my finals tomorrow
22:52
I thought the main result was quite beautiful
I was considering like working right away, but I think I will take few days off
I read parts of Bourbaki's topologie générale to learn French
Demonark, I constantly try to remind you all and future teachers in general that one has to remember that the average math student doesn't think/learn the same way you do.
@Ted So do you think that the average math student thinks pictorally?
True, though in principle might it balance out with having a few geometric types and a few algebraic types teaching? Like, get an idea of each and then zoom in however you'd like?
22:54
I think it's true that there's a fair proportion of students who are algebraically motivated and think naturally in terms of algebra (as in, intuit based on the mathematical symbols/rules/games? I don't really know how algebraists think), though, right?
Lots do, @Mathei. Some are purely formal learners, but they're probably a minority.
I think teachers need to try to communicate using different learning "schemes."
punpupnuppunupn
And you guys who hang around here should remember that you're far more motivated by math than the average math student.
So, I've sort of found a split in whether people are more into pictures vs formal stuff that is correlated with what people like
literally all the analysts ive ever met have shown a clear preference for pictorial thinking but that may be because trying to do hard analysis in terms of formal sorts of manipulations and stuff is actually a total nightmare
22:56
I've got a few friends who are hardcore analysts and they tend to be the least into pictures
Yeah, I know some analysts who can't even draw a decent circle.
@Daminark that disagrees with my experience of the hard analysts in the dept
I like to think that I think in terms of "structures". Not sure if everything I do is really formal. I sometimes just say to myself "these two must be isomorphic because of my gut feeling" or "this has to be natural in both arguments, becaue it would be really strange if it wasn't" or "I defined two maps that are both so canonical and I used so little that have to agree"
lmao @Ted
@Eric I'm thinking more students, I don't interact much with the analyst professors
22:57
of course then I write down a formal proof and don't draw a picture
I mean, with Soug yeah, but it's mostly when he's taking the piss out of me for being homeless
ive never met one who didnt explicitly express a preference for pictorial representations
@TedShifrin most analyst I met think in terms of pictures
it might also be that that's just easier for lectures
Guess no one here has ever read a Rudin book? :)
22:58
I have in mind one student who very much doesn't like algebra and isn't into geometry, and another who straight up dislikes anything that isn't analysis
doing hard analysis live at a board is hard
We even once tried to make a case where he was like yeah, I don't even want to deal with linear algebra, aside from the basics it's not necessary, etc
Such people irk me just as much as the Matheis irk me, Demonark. But Mathei actually knows a lot more non-algebra than he pretends.
And those two are the ones who like, I mean yeah sure go on with your pictures, but will never accept it fully. At some point or another everything has to be justified by something written
@TedShifrin That.

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