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02:00
when you're talking geometric multiplicity, you're talking actual linearly independent eigenvectors.
I didn't do much, but you're welcome, Maneesh.
@TedShifrin You helped me to converge to answer :)
I hope your knowledge is a Hausdorff space, so that converging gave you a unique result :P
hi DogAteMy :)
One of my young students got the puzzle in a few minutes.
A cyclic subspace in the decomposition of the generalized eigenspace for $\lambda$ corresponds to a direct summand of the form $K[T]/(T-\lambda)^n$ which corresponds to a Jordan block
@MatheinBoulomenos what is this $K[T]/(T-\lambda)^n$?
yes, sorry. i think i agree.
$K$ is your base field, $K[T]$ is the polynomial ring and $K[T]/(T-\lambda)^n$ is the quotient module of $K[T]$ by the submodule generated by $(T-\lambda)^n$
02:05
@TedShifrin :)
now how does each such direct summand correspond to a basis element of the eigenspace?
You're thinking of the vector space as a $K[T]$-module with $T\cdot v$ being given by the action of your linear map.
A regular eigenvector is a vector that is annihilated by $(T-\lambda)$ which is a fancy way of saying $Tv=\lambda v$
@TedShifrin right, i kinda follow. i dont know a whole lot of algebra unfortunately
Oh, so we shouldn't be doing modules, and we should be doing linear algebra, just as I suspected :P
02:07
Modules make everything simpler
@TedShifrin i wouldn't be asking such a (presumably) silly question now, would I? :)
Only if you know the language and the process, Mathei.
All right, @JoeShmo, so how do you think of a cyclic subspace?
Yeah, I'm sorry @Joe @Ted for bringing up the module stuff
@Mathei: You're so busy being enamored of your algebra, you rarely think as a teacher.
But I do applaud you for your patience with one of our denizens. You've been great.
a cyclic subspace w.r.t T has basis {v, Tv, T^2(v), ... T^k(v)} where k is the index of T and v is any non-zero vector
02:08
You're talking about Kasmir?
Yup @Mathei.
I would like to be a better teacher, but I think I lack empathy
You can work on that, @Mathei. More importantly, work on figuring out where they are, rather than where you wish they were.
@JoeShmo: Do you mean $T-\lambda I$ rather than $T$ there?
in our instance, yes
@user104729: Remove that. We don't need ad hominem attacks here.
02:11
@TedShifrin i agree with that, but I would extend it to "figuring out and valuing"
valuing?
@TedShifrin He's a brilliant man, I really like him. It's just that students think he lacks empathy.
You mean not demeaning?
and only if we restrict the mapping to the eigenspace
more than that
02:11
But, let's assume $\lambda=0$ for simplicity here, JoeShmo.
He pushes the students very hard.
Where in your list of vectors is there an eigenvector?
@user104729: I pushed my students incredibly hard, but my ratemyprofessors looks different :P
taking what they've managed to understand as valuable and what they don't know as an opportunity, rather than merely "ignorance equals bad"
something like that
OK, Semiclassic, that's sort of what I meant when I said to figure out where they are.
@TedShifrin Sure :). You had empathy though, with the students surely :P.
02:12
But well said.
I made it so that most of them had fun and worked their butts off, yeah, @user104729, but some — understandably — didn't like me so much.
Sure, I can appreciate that.
I suspect I'm recalling some stuff of Jane Addams / John Dewey I read for a senior course.
(not a teaching course)
educational philosophy?
American pragmatism more specifically.
aha ...
I've certainly been known to lose my patience with some folks here. I don't advocate infinite patience. :)
02:15
but both Dewey and Addams were very much practitioners
lol
yeah, same
But I realized very early in my teaching (even as a grad student) that part of good teaching is being an effective cheerleader.
@TedShifrin (T^(k-1))(v) is my eigenvector?
if the index of Z(G) in G = n, prove that every conjugacy class has at most n elements
Yup, @JoeShmo. Well done. :)
no answers please
02:17
"no answers please"?
Z(G) is a subgroup of Cent_G (x) , x in G
since 0 = (T^k)(v) = T((T^(k-1))(v))
Yup, @JoeShmo. So do you have some understanding of what's going on now?
nope :)
LOL.
Try writing out a concrete matrix. Like a $k\times k$ Jordan block.
02:18
@TedShifrin yes meant i want to solve it alone , just need to understand if I got the question right
It's a correct statement, Kasmir, I do believe.
of course, I haven't actually looked at any of the Addams/Dewey stuff since then (spring 2010) so uh
vaaaague
oh, wait a minute
duh
LOL
best teaching moment :P
well the way i see it is that they are more restains on Z(G) than on Cent_G (x)
02:19
if every such jordan block can be identified by exactly one eigenvector
sure, you have to commute with everyone, not just $x$
eigenvector, @JoeShmo
elements that commute with all of elements of G, in comparasion with elements comution with just x
Kasmir, I sniped you :P
is Z(a) a thing ?
can we say that?
I never write that.
02:20
okay :)
I now $C_G(a)$, that's shorter and less pecuniary than Cent
whoa .. pecuniary ...
then there can be at most n (= dim ker T - lambda*I) such cyclic subspaces, else their sum is not direct (they overlap nontrivially)
i really hate most of the notations
what does this have to do with money?
02:22
like we should use stab (x) , cent (x) , orb (x) ect
And they can't, @JoeShmo.
makes more sense to me
on the other hand, any such basis element gives rise to a direct summand...
wonderful
just a bad joke @Ted
thank you very much!
02:22
You're most welcome, Joe. You're doing fine.
@Mathei: You should have warned us. :P
yesterday, by Akiva Weinberger
${\rm stab}(\cdot)$ seems unusually violent
should one use class equation here?
Count on DogAteMy.
or prove it by contradiction
02:26
Neither.
i know that |G| / |Z(G)| =n
What's the most central (no pun intended) formula/equation you've talked about hundreds of times?
:DDDDDDD
orbit stab
let me see what I can do with that
I don't see a difference between calling ${\rm stab}(\cdot)$ violent and calling ${\rm Cent}(\cdot)$ pecuniary
cents don't even count as money
have some sense!
02:27
Seems no less violent than $ ^{\dagger}$
@TedShifrin heh
Demonark: I somehow knew that would summon you from your depths.
Is there a proverb in English for saying that little things can add up to something big (in particular pecuniarily)?
n |Z(G)| / |Cent _G (x)| = |class (x)|
thats all what I got from it
In German we say something that translates to "small domestic animals produce dung as well"
02:31
many hands make light work is sorta in that direction, but I'm sure there's a better idiom
Truly
das stimmt mathein ja
ich habe kein ideich
okay ill stop there ><
@TedShifrin thats all what I got from orbit stab , hint?:D
Well, you can use what you already said to say more.
hmm
since Z(G) is a subgroup of C_G (x)
suppose $f$ is non-negative and $x\in [0,1]$, If $\int_{0}^{x}f(t)dt \le \sup\{f(t):t \in [0,x]\}$ does it imply $f(x)=0$?
02:35
we know that cardinality of centrilizer is strict bigger
than the center of G
ahh I got it :D
n |Z(G)| = | C_G(x) ||class(x) |
Grr. How are $|Z|$ and $|C_G(x)|$ related?
so since |C _G (x) | is bigger or equal to the order of Z(G)
class(x) must have at most n element , cant have more
Aren't inequalities fun?
smacks Mathei
02:39
say whuut
No as in I argue wrong ?
or No as in inequaties arent fun ?
No, you're right
It's just that inequalities aren't fun
that was hard argument to see from start
02:40
It should be easy to you by now, Kasmir.
maybe because of the many notations
what should be ?:D
These arguments.
You've got to think of orbit/stabilizer.
part of learning a field of math is learning the language, that includes the notation
yes yes :D
well that is the hardest part for me atm, i mean when i see the idea its not that hard
but I get lost in not knowning what things stand for
Well, you need to address that.
02:42
i need to solve more exercices
algebra is mostly language, you're basically only plugging in definitions all the time
I noticed that
working with that things stand for , then the arguments follow
well some things require creativity like Group actions
I'm half-kidding
That's not fair, Mathei. Some of the arguments are quite deep. But the basic arguments are just using definitions and understanding them.
I wasn't being serious
02:43
Well, much of undergraduate linear algebra and algebra is just mastering definitions. There are a few substantive arguments.
I just don't like training students to push symbols. I want them to know what they're doing
Well, my undergraduate linear algebra was like 50% ring and module theory which was more than mastering definitions
That's not what we teach in the US until senior level.
on that note, does anybody understand a little bit of model theory and can tell me about the novelty in this theory?
sounds like algebra, rephrased (and only slightly so).
Do you mean model theory or module theory?
18
Q: Two definitions of $\limsup$

angryavianHere are two equivalent definitions of $\limsup_{n\rightarrow\infty} a_n$: Let $u_n=\sup\{a_n, a_{n+1}, a_{n+2},\ldots\}$. Then $$\limsup_{n\rightarrow\infty} a_n = \lim_{n\rightarrow\infty} u_n = \lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}\left(\sup\{a_n,a_{n+1},\ldots\}\right)$$ Let $E$ be the set of all su...

02:47
logic — model theory ...
I'm having trouble finding intuition for the first definition of limsup
@MatheinBoulomenos I mean model
I've read the answers and they kind of help
It's important to understand why the two definitions are the same, @io_cantor.
I like the sup of all subsequential limits, personally.
Yeah, I like that one too. I'm trying to see how they match up, but I'm not quite getting it.
02:48
I'm not staying much longer, but what part bothers you?
What does it mean to take the limit of the supremum of a set?
Or, I guess
Each set has a sup. Those numbers form a monotone sequence (why?). So they have a limit (possibly infinity).
Hmm, I'll try to see why it's monotone, thanks!
Ah, monotonically decreasing
That part makes sense
We never add a larger number to our sequence, only remove numbers
Right.
So, if it's bounded below, it'll have a real limit. Okay.
I think I get this definition now. Thanks. Now I need to figure out how the two defintions are equivalent.
02:55
It's a worthwhile exercise. :) I approve. :)
When doing group theory I start to sympathize a bit with Wildberger
I don't think he's right but like infinite groups are annoying
if G/Z(G) is cyclic then G is abelian
what is a good proof of this ?
Oh that's a slick problem, I like it a lot
02:57
the way i see it is , G/Z(G) = < x Z(G) >
And why is it not good enough for $G/Z$ to be abelian, not cyclic?
hmm
well because cyclic Groups are abelan
Aren't Lie Groups interesting?
but not the other way around
They may be interesting but I miss cardinality arguments
02:59
@Daminark I think that you need some extra structure on a infinite group to be able to attack it in an interesting way, like at least a topology
Ah, I'm not a fan of constructing bijections lol
"Cantor" - i'm a disgrace to my username
but is that how one argues here?
@Kasmir: But in your proof, make sure you understand why you need cyclic and abelian won't suffice. Can you give a counterexample with abelian/not cyclic?
Sometimes cardinality arguments can be mimicked on compact groups by measure arguments
True but this is a statement that was asked about all groups and I originally wanted to just be like "compute cardinalities"
Until I realized that this plan was rip
03:01
But yeah, I love finite groups, they're great. Counting and divisibility arguments can give a lot
@TedShifrin Z/2 x Z/2 is not cyclic
but it is abelian
Grrr .. I want a $G$.
klein 4 Group :D
that is what i just wrote no ?
oh
@KasmirKhaan Ted is asking for a group $G$ such that $G/Z(G)$ is abelian, but not cyclic, but $G$ is not abelian
Sorry
03:03
I want $G$ with $G/Z$ abelian (but not cyclic) so that $G$ ends up not abelian.
sniped @Ted
let me Think :D
well if we take A_4 / klein 4
or wait ><
what am saying
The center of $A_4$ is trivial
03:05
yup, @Mathei. I yield all algebra to you.
yes yes >< i was taking normal subgroup
@Ted thanks a lot!
You're most welcome. I have enough to worry about here.
@KasmirKhaan you proved a result once that certain groups have non-trivial center, right? Maybe that can help you come up with an example
:D
okay if we take Z/p x Z/p
03:07
@Mathein abelian ones! :P
Lol jk don't mind me :P
I don't even
Demonark excels at being annoying.
okay that Group has center Z/p
@KasmirKhaan we want something non-abelian
og
grrrrr
Groups of order p^2 are abelian right
well then if we take a Group of order p^3
Do you know any non-abelian group of order p^3 for some p?
After a long enough time you'll get used to it, even appreciate it
well (Z/2)^3
That looks pretty abelian to me
03:10
Demonark, um, NO.
Gah, I'm stuck with that cyclic -> abelian question. Should I be constructing a quotient map?
Question: Is there any visualization that one can do in group theory like linear algebra?
Stockholm syndrome takes quite a long time
@io_cantor I don't know much about this but groups have associated Cayley graphs
Not sure how much info you can glean off of just visualizing Cayley graph but it's something you can do geometry on so I guess there's that?
Yeah, it's something.. not great though
Ted is the one who is known for approaching algebra geometrically
Beyond that I've got nothing, I rarely think about groups pictorially
03:13
smacks Mathei for the fifth time
@KasmirKhaan $p=2$ is a good idea, always start looking for simple examples. Do you know any non-abelian group of order $8$?
Oh, you're counting?
well D_8
and quatrinion
or what ever it is called :D
Take any one of them, it doesn't matter
What can you say about $G/Z(G)$?
03:15
okay let me find the center of D_8
Hint: It's cyclic.
P.S.: Rats.
so the identity and r^2
are in the center of D_8
i should have realized that sooner
Actually now that I think about it, a non-abelian group of order $p^3$ must have $G/Z(G) \cong C_p\times C_p$
@io_cantor Honestly, I'd say certain groups are just more geometric than others. Some groups may be realized as symmetry groups of various geometric objects like polyhedra (dihedral groups are great example of this), which lets you reason geometrically, though this identification can sometimes feel coincidental. Some groups are defined in terms of linear algebra over finite fields, which is not quite geometric to most people, but at least you can use your understanding of linear algebra.
I see, thanks. What is it about linear algebra that makes it so open to visualization?
Is it because (at least in the beginning), we're working in R^n over R?
03:23
I prefer working in $\mathbb{R}^n$ over $\mathbb{F}_{47}$ but suit yourself
Nah but really I think that's good something to do with it
in proving that , if G is non abelian Group of order 15 , Z(G) = 1
There's geometry with dot products and projections, @io_cantor.
since Z(G) is a subgroup of G
it can have order 1,3,5,15
since G is non abelian
What group $G$ is Kasmir up to this time?
Right there's that as well
03:25
haha @TedShifrin
@Kasmir Every non-abelian group of order 15 has center of size 26. This statement is not false.
so if the order of Z(G) is either 3 or 5
Z/ z(G) is isomorphic to Z/5 or Z/3
but that is not allowed since G is not abelian
I want an abelian quotient that is not cyclic.
@Ted he already figured it out, it's a new question I think
Oh.
No one tells me anything.
03:26
@io_cantor I'd say it's because in linear algebra, for a lot of the basic stuff, the base field doesn't matter, so you can transfer some of your intituion about $\Bbb R^n$ for $n=1,2,3$ to the general case
is eric here
@Kasmir the reason why the stuff I said above is true is because groups of order 15 are cyclic
I haven't seen him, Mike.
03:27
so that forces Z(G) =1
@Daminark I thought it was a joke ._.
As a general rule, in fact, groups of order $pq$ where $q > p$ and $p\nmid q-1$ are cyclic
@MatheinBoulomenos, makes sense. I guess there's just a lot more structure when working in linear algebra. Things are a lot more 'loose' in group theory.
@KasmirKhaan vacuous truths
03:28
Every non-abelian group of order 15 has center of size 26 ?
All groups of order 15 are cyclic!
how is this true?
Abelian**
@KasmirKhaan because it's a vacuous truth
oh
:D
okay I kinda dont need that right now
Word play -.-
03:28
@KasmirKhaan your proof that $Z(G)=1$ or $Z(G)=15$ is still correct and uses less machinery
@KasmirKhaan he's giving you a remark that the thing you want to prove is a vacuous truth
OK, I'm going to cook dinner. Bye, all.
@MatheinBoulomenos thanks :D but what you mean uses less machinery ?
@TedShifrin bonne apetit Ted !
bubye.
03:29
Well, for the statement that every group of order $15$ is cyclic, I'd use Sylow
Yeah it was a facetious way of saying that you're proving something vacuous. And see you @Ted!
Bye @TedShifrin
@Daminark must there be a non-abelian group of order $pq$ if $p \mid q-1$ and $p,q$ are prime?
@LeakyNun yes, semidirect-products
03:30
Oh yeah , but this question was on section Before sylow
=p
so for $p, q$ primes, there is a non-abelian group of order $pq$ iff $p \mid q - 1$
Semidirect products isn't about Sylow
It's just Cauchy
Which is much easier
Oh right, you can use semidirect products as well
@Mathein what? You just mentioned semidirect products above
2 mins ago, by MatheinBoulomenos
Well, for the statement that every group of order $15$ is cyclic, I'd use Sylow
03:32
Oh I see
@Daminark I was thinking about proving the cyclic case -> Sylow; proving the existence of non-cyclic groups -> semidirect
mathein
in the partition of numbers
I think you can construct something explicitely with matrices, so you don't need semidirect products. Let $x$ be a primitive root modulo $q$, then the set of all matrices of the form $M = \left( \begin{smallmatrix} x^{ap} & y\\ 0 &1 \end{smallmatrix} \right) $ where $a \in \Bbb Z$ and $y \in \Bbb F_q$ is non-abelian of order $pq$
to have conjugacy classes for S_n and A_n
do we partition n, as normal?
i mean P(n) function
or is it something else?
@KasmirKhaan yes
03:37
thanks leaky :D
for the conjugacy classes are determined by the cycle type for S_n
i was thinking more like 2+3 and 3+2
@MatheinBoulomenos tell me you never used semidirect product to construct that matrix
but then figured why it is wrong
those are disjoint so it wont matter
ah, I'm wrong, it should be $x^{a\frac{q-1}{p}}$ of course
I didn't use semidirect products to construct that matrix :P
Anyway, I'm off. Bye everyone!
03:44
@MatheinBoulomenos thanks alot for help mathein, and good night! :)
04:05
Could someone give a hint on, how to go from 2.3 to 2.4? home.uni-osnabrueck.de/mfrankland/Math527/Math527_0306.pdf
04:23
@_@ why am I watching njw videos
Yet another last night dream where each action is encoded by left concatenation. It goes as far to have the naturals being produced and then another 1 is concatenated from the left to form a string 101234567891011121314...
Anonymous
04:53
@LeakyNun I need a bit of help with this: I'm trying to find the singularities of $\frac{\cot(\pi z)}{(z-a)^2}$. $z=a$ is a pole of order 2. $z=n\pi$ are also poles order $1$ each. What are the singularities (removable/essential) for this function? I'm not sure. This is one concept that I don't get properly. :/
Szechuan dipping sauce
since you already have $\pi$ in the function, wouldn't it be $z=n$?
@DaenerysDracarys bit late to take up that meme
Nah, Rick and Morty's on right now.
Anonymous
@anon What? I don't get you
It was that episode and it made me hungry.
Anonymous
04:55
How is $z=n$ a singularity?
$\cot(z)$ has a singularity at $z=\pi$. but $\cot(\pi z)$ doesn't have it at $z=\pi$...
@Blue plugging $n$ into $\cot(\pi z)$ yields $\cot(n\pi)$
By the way, I have a bounty up - it's for 50 points plus all the Szechuan dipping sauce you want.
I recently enjoyed bojack.
seems underappreciated
depends on who you talk to, i think
04:57
I have never seen that show.
if someone has heard of bojack, they probably appreciate it
indeed, that is what I meant
if, though
I like the Mike Tyson Mysteries, though.
Hi yall
what is bojack anon ?
Anonymous
04:58
@Semiclassical Oh. Sorry. That was a typo. Other than that are there any essential singularities? My textbook says $z=\infty$ is an essential isolated singularity
a netflix show
you'll have to clarify, I think
Ill check it out when I got free time on chrismas
That sweet sweet winter break
Really though I wish it wasn't 3 weeks, like after a week plus change I just get bored

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