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14:00
I answered a similar question here: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1298445/…
@BrownNinja yeah, except that your components of $\vec{x}$ is aribtrarily ordered, thus what stopping me to have an $\vec{x}$ that look like (1,2,6,5,4,8,9,0,0,1,12,etc.) and then you can have component sums of a "subvector" of this vector that are larger than the component sum of a subvector with more components
The way I'd say it: an implication with a false premise can't be falsified
And for that reason is considered as tautologically true
whlie for majorisation, you will expect all k-1 component sums of $\vec{x}$ starting from the smallest element to be $\leq$ that of the k component sums, for example
It's also that the true statement doesn't mean what people generally think it means
We also have a relation between $\vec{x}$ and $x^{\downarrow}$. We can write $\vec{x} = x^{\downarrow} T$ where $T$ is a permutation matrix.
14:03
@LeakyNun Okay! so "implies" is different than $\implies$ in general...
@BrownNinja glad I was helpful, then :)
@Mathmore the informal "implies" is different from $\implies$.
but $\implies$ is called "implies".
Not so much @LeakyNun
@LeakyNun Gotcha!!
2 mins ago, by Semiclassical
The way I'd say it: an implication with a false premise can't be falsified
@Mathmore
14:04
Right so you have $\vec{x}_{n,k} = x^{\downarrow} TS$
The true statement is something that evaluates as true whatever the truth distribution is
@LeakyNun I thought @Semiclassical was responding somebody else. Although it applies in my case.
It isn't "Pigs don't fly" or "the sky is blue"
These are elements of your truth distribution
Yes. Additionally, a necessary and sufficient condition for a vector $\vec{x}$ to majorize other vector $\vec{y}$ is if $\vec{y} = \vec{x} P$ where $P$ is a doubly stochastic matrix
"$A\implies B$" stated as such means : for any truth distribution, we have either $B$ or we have not $A$
14:06
A logically true statement is one which can't be falsified, is perhaps a way to put the point more broadly
And in that context the true statement is the one that is true whatever the truth distribution is
It's not something that is true, it's truth itself
Same goes for False
@Semiclassical @Astyx Okay. With truth table we can show whether a $\implies$ statement is true or false. It doesn't matter what hypothesis and conclusion is involved.
@BrownNinja ok, still I don't quite see how this all fits together though, $T$, being a permutation matrix, must be doubly stochastic, not sure if that is relevant
hypothesis may be true may be false in it's own right
So, $\vec{x}_{n,k} = x^{\downarrow} T S$, and $x^{\downarrow}_{n,k} = x^{\downarrow} S$. So the condition for majorization is
$x^{\downarrow} T S = x^{\downarrow} S P$
14:11
Depends what you mean by that @Mathmore
An implication may or may not be true depending on the truth distribution (in the general case)
In common (mathematical) language, when we say an implication is true, we mean it's a tautology
That is : it's true whatever the truth distribution is
I see. Eye opening conversation so far here.
@Astyx Okay.
Or we can simply write $\vec{x} S = x^{\downarrow} S P$. Since $S$ is not orthogonal, so $S^{T} \neq S^{-1}$? Also since $S$ is not square, inverse does not exist, we need to look at the pseudo-inverse?
hmm, so that means... (with $S$ being rectangular and block diagonal of $\vec{1}$)
$x^{\downarrow} T SS^T = x^{\downarrow} S PS^T$

$x^{\downarrow} T kI_l = x^{\downarrow} S PS^T$


$kx^{\downarrow} T = x^{\downarrow} S PS^T$

and we have showed that $S PS^T$ is doubly stochastic, thus the majorisation condition still holds, I guess...
uh, let me check something first...
I am sorry, I do not think $SS^{T} = k I$. For example
$$
S = \begin{bmatrix}
1 & 0 & 0 \\ 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1\\ 0 & 0 & 1
\end{bmatrix}
$$
$$\begin{pmatrix}\vec{1} & \vec{0} & \vec{0} \\\vec{0} & \vec{1} & \vec{0}\\ \vec{0} & \vec{0} & \vec{1}\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}\tilde{1} & \vec{0} & \vec{0} \\\vec{0} & \tilde{1} & \vec{0}\\ \vec{0} & \vec{0} & \tilde{1}\end{pmatrix}$$

$$\begin{pmatrix}\tilde{1} & \vec{0} & \vec{0} \\\vec{0} & \tilde{1} & \vec{0}\\ \vec{0} & \vec{0} & \tilde{1}\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}\vec{1} & \vec{0} & \vec{0} \\\vec{0} & \vec{1} & \vec{0}\\ \vec{0} & \vec{0} & \vec{1}\end{pmatrix}$$

(computing...)
(tilde is row vector, and $\vec{}$ is column vector)
The bottom evaluates to $kI_l$ but the top evaluates to $\text{blockdiag}((1)_{kxk})$ where $(1)_{kk}$ is the kxk matrix of all 1s
14:31
Yes
Yes, $S^{T}S = k I_{\ell}$
I am not very sure what happens when $x^{\downarrow}$ is multiplied to a block permutation matrix with each block being kxk matrices of 1s
repeated elements?
$k$ repitions of sum of $k$ elements for every element?
e.g. consider:

$\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 5 & 7 & 11\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}1 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 1 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\0 & 0 & 1 & 1 & 0 & 0\\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 1 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 1\end{pmatrix}$
$(3 \quad 3 \quad 8 \quad 8 \quad 18\quad 18)$
the ordering seemed to be preserved, even though there are repeatitions
14:37
yes
regardless, I think your majorisation condition is still preserved since $SPS^T$ is doubly stochastic as proven earlier
but $SPS^T$ is doubly stochastic only if $S$ is a block permutation matrices of blocks $\vec{1}$ or $\tilde{1}$ (well, that's the simplest case where it will hold)
I also suspect that. Intuition being any rearrangement of $x^{\downarrow}$ to form $\vec{x}$ takes $x_{n,k}$ closer to a vector of uniform elements.
yes, where the ordering will be most scrambled
exactly.
Thank you very much @Secret . You were of great help. Now if anyone knows how to save this chat session for later viewing?
Anyone know the perquisites for Real Analysis: Measure Theory and Integration and Hilbert Spaces ?
14:45
@LeakyNun Is SN2 reaction mechanism in general slower than SN1 reaction mechanism?
5
Q: Is it possible to bookmark a conversation in chat, which has messages in two different days?

MartinI know that there is 400 messages limit for a conversation. But in rooms with low usage it is possible that an interesting conversation spans more than one day. Is it somehow possible to bookmark a conversation which starts one days and ends the second day? If not, could something like this be ...

uh, I will expect the opposite happens, since $S_N1$ needs two steps while $S_N2$ needs only 1. It is inperceptibly slow for bulky nucleophiles, though
I forgot which step in $S_N1$ is the rate determining step...
@LeakyNun Can you explain why?
apparently I'm having a brain-fart
14:47
The leaving of the leaving group is the rate determining step.
@BalarkaSen I say you consult @Secret on this matter
I would rather not.
But thanks anyway.
why not?
coughs uncomfortably So, how 'bout them sheaves?
@BalarkaSen Linear algebra question: Consider $\Bbb R^{4n}=\Bbb H^n$ ($\Bbb H$ acts from the RIGHT) and the inclusion $Sp(n)\times Sp(1)\hookrightarrow SO(4n)$ (which identifies $(-1,-1)$ with $(1,1)$). How can I see that the image (denoted by $Sp(n)\cdot Sp(1)$) can be characterized as the subgroup of $SO(4n)$ which preserves the subspace of $\operatorname{End}(\Bbb R^{4n})$ genered by right-multiplication by $i,j,k$?
14:52
@Bala, So this main problem in my thesis, I think, is getting much too hard for me
Like, I don' t see good reasons why this would be masters thesis level, but maybe I'm just a bit shy
@Danu Oh dear, linear algebra.
Remember what Sp(n) does again?
An element $L$ of $Sp(n)\cdot Sp(1)$ is given by an $n\times n$ quaternionic matrix $A\in Sp(n)$ and $q\in Sp(1)=S^3$ and sends $v\mapsto Avq$ (order not important because $A$ commutes with $q$ by definition). Then it is not hard to show that if $p$ is an imaginary quaternion (also acts from the RIGHT!), then $L\circ p\circ L^{-1}=q^{-1}pq$, which is again an imaginary quaternion
Quaternionic matrices that preserve the std inner product on $\Bbb H^n$ @BalarkaSen
In that case, I think it depends. If you have a bad leaving group like OH (or the resulting carbocation is not very substituted hence very unstable), and a small nucleophile, $S_N2$ can be faster, though my undergrad year 2 lecture notes said it is quite sensitive to the reaction conditions
Now I want the converse: Suppose $L\in SO(4n)$ sends the endomorphisms $i,j,k$ to other imaginary quaternions $a,b,c$.
I want to find $A\in Sp(n)$ and $q\in Sp(1)$ such that $Lv=Avq$
@Krijn Have you made a bunch of progress but stuck on the last step or something?
14:56
@BalarkaSen No, I have a much more general view of the problem now
@Danu This is precisely the kind of question I can't help you on :)
Or I can try, but it would mostly be wasting your time
I'd be happy if you'd try :-)
@Krijn I see.
So IF $L$ would be given by $Lv=Avq$ (which we want to show) then for instance we have $qaq^{-1}/\|a\|=i$ and similarly for $b,j$ and $c,k$.
It's like, a generalisation of some very famous theorems for curves, but then over function fields with char p > 0\
14:59
Actually $a,b,c$ will have norm one because of $SO(4n)$
But I can't see why that should than be so easy
I'll ask my advisor someday
[Matrix question], what are the conditions for a vector $v\in\Bbb{R}^n$ such that $v^Tv=I_n$?
Now I don't see how to proceed
guys, I kinda forgot how to show whether it's holds that $\sin x=O(x)$. Should I write $\sin x=x+O(x^3)$? And then check if $x=O(x)-O(x^3)$? If so, any hints on that?
@Leaky @Secret I see now, maybe. The context I was thinking about was preparing haloalkanes from alcohols; so even though the leaving group -OH is bad, there is an H^+ ion flying around which attacks the leaving group so that it becomes -OH_2^+; that's a good leaving group so would want to just leave. SN1 is best in that context.
15:06
@BalarkaSen what is the alcohol?
@Secret Ew, row vectors.
anything that's 1 degree
yes, H2O^+ is a really good leaving group and explains most acid catalysed nucleophic attack reactions such as those related to carbonyls and alcohols
if it's more than 1 degree you're not going to be able to do SN2 anyway, because steric hindrance
so the question is shambles
@BalarkaSen degree?
15:08
@Secret Anyway, no such $v$ exists.
primary alcohol
$1^\circ$
@SteamyRoot yeah, I just worked out, you will need zero divisors to satisfy the relations in the cross terms, but $\Bbb{R}$ has no zero divisors
then of course SN1
this is because the diagonals are squares of 1s and hence the components of the vectors has to be squareroots of 1
never mind i got it
15:12
I think one needs something weird like a modified version of $\Bbb{C}$ such that the units are zero divisor to work, but that is impossibel since units cannot be zero divisors
@Secret e.g. a^2=b^2=1, ab=ba=0
for example, suppose $a=j,b=k$ and $j^2=1,k^2=1$ but $jk=0$ then it might work, but I guess we will end up in octonion territory when we do this
Well, that answers that weird question back when I was 1st year, on whether you can have rectangular matrices $S$ such that $S^T$ is really a legitimate inverse such that $SS^T=I_n$ and $S^TS=I_m$. We have shown the first case is impossible unless we are in some wacky rings
as for the second case, Brown ninja's block diagonal matrix is an example (and I am too lazy to work out the general case)
You'll need at least the sedenions.
Octonions do not contain any zero divisors.
oops, I misremembered
The strongly carefree constant and the carefree constant. Not even Wolfram cares enough about them to give them any more than a page.
15:23
(meanwhile, I one again procrastinated my whole day on maths chat)
5
bummer...
15:44
Hey if I fourrier transform a function a function, afaik $\widehat{f}(\omega)$ tells me the amplitude of of $e^{i\omega t}$ "within" f. My script further states that it tells us the phase of $\omega$ as well I'm not sure formulation exactly means? Does $\widehat{f}(\omega)$ tell us the phase of the $e^{i\omega t}$ part of f?
16:15
@Felix.C Well, you could look at it as the mean of $e^{i\omega t}$ weighted by $\frac{f(t)}{\int f(x)\,\mathrm{d}x}$ times $\frac1{\sqrt{2\pi}}\int f(x)\,\mathrm{d}x$.
[Drawing]
@Secret your day near a black hole
the black hole commonly known as chat
@Secret Nice
Is it meant to represent something, or is it just a random drawing
looks kindof like a i bifucated homoeclinical loop
well, I am thinking about spirals and strange attractors
16:22
but would need to come in fromthetop and bottom diffrently
@Secret do you attract strange?
and then tries to make it pretty by making those near vertical strands
Oh, are we returning to the Junji Ito topic again /s
@robjohn Dr. Strange?
@robjohn hes here...
16:22
@Typhon we could only hope
@robjohn sry but how does this give me the phase?? sry I don't see it -.-
@Faust7 Sorry, I'll leave. :-(
what?
I am weird and strange, thus I am a source of strangness, but I don't attract strange
stranges attracts me
@Faust7 "he's here"
16:24
@Typhon You'll always be my favorite turtle warrior person in this chat.
...
i was talking about secret
there are no turtles
afaik
lol
well it isnt my game so how can I say?
16:26
im going home today finnally
Nive vaction but time to get home
too dam hot here
also whos game is it if not yours?
idk
The people?
@Faust7 what do you mean by that?
16:28
:S
-_-
lemme get a cup of coffee
@Felix.C its the mean of $e^{i\omega t}$ weighted by $f(t)$. If $f$ is bigger when $\omega t$ is some particular value mod $2\pi$, then $\hat{f}(\omega)$ will be larger.
Better:
@Faust7 no. You're not allowed to step away from this chat, ever!
16:43
@AkivaWeinberger ugh, I reread the Enigma of Amigara Fault lately. Not sure why I thought that was a good idea
Because it is creepy as f*********
why are you rereading that, it is extremely (....)
drops dead
"T-this is my hole!! It was made for me!!"
@Semiclassical DRR
DRR
Though what creeps me out the most is the compulsive aspect of it
The rest of it is horrifying but unreal
17:02
O.o
If you don't know what we're talking about...that's probably for the best
every 4th ofjuly i just want to listen to that nirivana song
Think its lake of fire?
Anyway hope you guys have a good day down there with all your explocives
I love 7/4
It's one of my top seven time signatures
@AkivaWeinberger I'm literally addicted to 7/4 lately.
ive only been in the usa for one and i was a kid but i had alot of fun
parents let me play with a shit ton of firecrackers pretty much the best day of my life as a kid
17:12
@Fargle The Wonder Woman theme is a great 7/4 piece
@AkivaWeinberger shrugs I basically only listen to prog metal tho
@Fargle glam rock, experimental hip hop or progressive dance pop
I wrote a small 5/4 piece once
Well, it's really a 4/4 piece that could be turned into a 5/4 piece if you wanted. Or a 3/4 piece. I dunno, just change the length of the first note of each bar :P
That may or may not be cheating.
@AkivaWeinberger I've written in 3 (and 6), 4, 5 (and 10), and 7 so far.
Well, riffs, that is. Not full songs.
17:27
Anybody here comfortable with $C^*$ algebras?
i got a buncha books and papers i don't understand on the subject
I'm looking for a canonical way to construct a faithful state in the case of a finite dimensional $C^*$ algebra
more interesting in the way is if such a way exists
alternatively a canonical embedding into a matrix algebra
[Chemistry] After another 10 hours (36000 seconds) finally finish reading the 3rd journal article. This is much better than the previous two cause at least it is finite (jking)
Never understoond anything is chem i just balanced the units n hoped.
Hi! I used to like organic chem. Studied Morisson and Boyd long before.
17:47
does anyone know a stack exchange that is especially dedicated to applied math?
like data science and stuff?
@SteamyRoot happy Independence day!
Uhhh... thanks? :P
I'm not American ;)
LOL :P
ah crap I was wishing you were
hey @Steamy, do you have one sec? :P
I would wish Ted Shifrin that but I'm afraid he's not very fond of nationalism
17:49
I do celebrate the 21st of July, the day we kicked @Sha out :P
@ShaVuklia Sure
why weren't you afraid that Steamy isn't very fond of nationalism? :P
WHATT
wait
that day didn't even happen yet
because he's not a professor
he's scary tho
I'd watch out for him :P
I ain't afraid of offending him that much, unless of course he's a SEAL member
do you have any idea why they bothered defining $g$?
like, it's unnecessary I'd say
17:51
hey @SteamyRoot I'm curious when did you kick Sha out? Could you give me the permalink? brings some pop corn
I know I can use compactness to show that $\vert f(\vec x)\vert\leq M$, but I don't see them using $g$, so that's odd @Steamy
@SoumyoB if you use some logic, it happened on the 21st of July, allegedly
yeah but which year
Well, actually, it probably wasn't the 21st
I think that's when our first king swore allegiance to the contitution
17:52
I've never seen someone get kicked out from here
I thought the mods are pretty lax on here
@ShaVuklia I think they just use it for the convenience of having a function $I \subset \mathbb{R} \to \mathbb{R}$
I don't see it tho
they say $g$ is bounded, and therefore $f$ is bounded?
$f$ is bounded on the unit circle
I know
but where do they use $g$?
to prove that $f$ is bounded on the unit circle.
17:57
ahh so you guys are Dutch
but I don't see how it follows from the fact that $g$ is bounded that $f$ is bounded? could you elaborate?
oh wait
never mind i guess
it's really weird
I'm ditching the $g$
any point $x \in S^1$ can be written as $x = (\cos \theta, \sin \theta)$
So for those $x$, $f(x) = g(\theta)$
ahh okay
alright thanks, I think that will do then

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