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12:03
@Astyx Well, according to general relativity, they're the same (locally).
It's weird really
So I'm guessing that if you wanted to find a difference, you'd have to work either on quantum scale, or work with black holes.
Either way, I don't know if there's any serious experiments going on.
I read an article some time ago where they hoped to find a difference
12:25
Finding a difference would certainly be very interesting!
But, at the same time, it's probably wishful thinking
(for now)
If you take $$g:\begin{cases}x\mapsto (x+1)^2\tab \text{ when }x\in]-\infty, -1]\\x\mapsto 0 \tab\text{ when } x\in [-1, 1]\\ x\mapsto (x-1)^2\tab \text{ when } x\in[1, +\infty[\end{cases}$$, $f:t\mapsto(t, g(t))$ and $A$ as the $x$ axis, then $f^{-1}(A)$ is not a manifold (it's $[-1, 1]$) and $f$ is not transversal to $A$ right ?
Ugh, chatjax is not working ?
you started with double $$
Oh thanks
ignore those $\tab$s
I think you can use &'s in cases to align... not sure though, I tend to use array
Okay I give up
12:30
$$g:\begin{cases}x\mapsto (x+1)^2 & \text{ when }x\in]-\infty, -1]\\x\mapsto 0 &\text{ when } x\in [-1, 1]\\ x\mapsto (x-1)^2& \text{ when } x\in[1, +\infty[\end{cases}$$
Thanks
hmmm, well, $f^{-1}(A) = [-1,1]$ isn't a manifold but it is a manifold with boundary, I guess.
yes, I'm trying to grasp the concept of transversability at the moment
I guess the issue comes when dealing with surfaces shrinking into curves
So, you mean to ask whether $f$ (the "stretched" parabola) and the $x$-axis are transversal as submanifolds of $\mathbb{R}^2$ ?
I'm probably not making much sense
Then answer is no unless I'm mistaken
12:37
Yeah, they indeed aren't.
I'm trying to find an example where they are not transversal and they do not form a manifold
But I guess I found an answer
Locally you want them to look like the whole ambient space, otherwise their intersection might not have the same dimension everywhere, right ?
Not sure if I'm following here
I have trouble figuring out what a cross between a tetrahedron and octahedron is like
and it seems that 4D shape is not documented anywhere
@SteamyRoot If you don't have transversality, you might end up with something like this when taking the intersection (or the reciprocal image, depending on the context), and this cannot be a manifold. But when you impose transversability, you fix the dimension so you don't get this kind of problem, and therefore you always get a manifold
Terrible drawing by the way, sorry, for that
12:53
What are we talking about?
Why transversality allows you to create manifolds
I'm trying to improve my intuition on transversality mainly
Oh, you wanted an example where things are not transverse, and intersect in a non-manifold?
For instance
But I think I got it
OK
I think G&P has good pictures of this phenomenon.
They do, I was trying to understand the general mechanisms instead of examples
12:57
o wait, found it:
In four-dimensional geometry, the rectified 5-cell is a uniform 4-polytope composed of 5 regular tetrahedral and 5 regular octahedral cells. Each edge has one tetrahedron and two octahedra. Each vertex has two tetrahedra and three octahedra. In total it has 30 triangle faces, 30 edges, and 10 vertices. Each vertex is surrounded by 3 octahedra and 2 tetrahedra; the vertex figure is a triangular prism. The vertex figure of the rectified 5-cell is a uniform triangular prism, formed by three octahedra around the sides, and two tetrahedra on the opposite ends. == Structure == Together with the simplex...
@Astyx Yeah, your idea is correct. If $M, N$ are transverse submanifolds of $\Bbb R^n$, then for all $p \in M \cap N$, $T_pM$ and $T_pN$ are transverse subspaces of $T_p \Bbb R^n$, and $T_p (M \cap N) = T_pM \cap T_pN$, so the dimension of the "tangent space" of $M \cap N$ is locally constant.
$T_p$ meaning the tangent plane at $p$ right ?
Which is the intuitive reason why $M \cap N$ is a submanifold.
Yes, @Astyx.
Thanks a lot
I'm making a heuristic argument here though.
13:03
If it's locally constant, it has to be constant
Right.
Ok I give up, it becomes way too cluttered to find out where I am
@Astyx If you don't require transversality, intersection can be arbitrarily bad. It is a fact that for any closed subset $C$ of $\Bbb R$, there is a curve $X$ in $\Bbb R^2$ such that $X \cap \Bbb R = C$ (here $\Bbb R$ is the x-axis of $\Bbb R^2$).
Eg C can be a Cantor set :P
Gotta love Cantor sets
Sard's theorem states that if you have a smooth map of manifolds $f:X\to Y$ then the set of critical values of $f$ has measure zero. But what if you take $f$ to be constant ? Isn't the set of critical values $X$ ?
13:11
@Astyx Value lies on the codomain. Point lies on the domain.
If $f$ sends everything to $y_0 \in Y$, critical values of $f$ is just a single element $y_0$ in $Y$
Ugh, I'm being very silly
Nah, terminology takes time to get used to.
G&P even stated that points not in the image are regular by vacuity
Right, yeah it makes much more sense now
I probably should have finished the chapter before asking, G&P answered my question just after
@Hippa Est-ce que tu as le numéro de JeSuis ? Histoire qu'on organise la journée avec lui
13:26
@Astyx Oui. Je vais te donner mon numéro, comme ça tu peux m'envoyer un messaage pour que je récupère le tien, puis je t'envoie celui de JeSuis
Il me l'a déjà donné, mais je veux bien le tien
C'est bon
J'ai envoyé un message
@Astyx reçu
Parfait
@Balarka Did you know Calculus before reading G&P ? I never really worked with Hessians
@Astyx Yeah I did Ted's course before GP
Helped me a lot
Huh, I'll look at that sometimes then
How long did it take you ?
13:37
I think you only need to look at Hessians if you want to learn Morse theory, which you can skip freely
Ted and Mike would tell you to not learn that section if you're doing diff top
@Astyx Multivariable Calculus?
Yes
I spent two years on it, just because I sucked :P I imagine you could learn all of it in a few weeks
I guess I'll just read through it and see what catches my interrest
I already know some, just not Hessians etc
yeah
You should pick up the stuff whenever required, I think. You know enough multicalc that doing a full course could potentially be a waste of time
I agree. I guess I'll also adapt to what possibilities I might have in my school next year too
Assuming I pass the entrance exams
The main result of G&P on Morse functions means they are dense in the set of smooth functions, correct ?
13:47
yup
actually stronger than that; it says you can perturb any smooth function to a Morse function by a linear perturbation
Right
That's basically the proof in the book
I almost finished chapter 1
right
I think one should always emphasize more that Hessian is nothing but derivative of the gradient.
That's for real valued functions right ?
SBM
SBM
14:01
hmm
Otherwise you'd get a much bigger matrix
@Astyx Hessian is defined as the matrix of mixed partials of order 2 for real valued functions, so.
Fair enough
Potentially you could define it for functions $f : \Bbb R^n \to \Bbb R^m$ in general: then $Df$ is a function $\Bbb R^n \to L(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^m)$; the latter being the space of linear maps. Define $Hf$ to be exactly the derivative of that.
$L(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^m)$ can be identified with $\Bbb R^{nm}$.
Yup
14:32
Heya chat!
SBM
SBM
Hey @Fargle
What's everyone up to this fine day?
Hi Fargle. Manifolds for me, what about you ?
@Astyx Probably more group theory.
SBM
SBM
Manifold?
14:42
@SBM A manifold is roughly a surface that locally looks like Euclidean space everywhere. For example, the surface of a sphere is locally flat.
SBM
SBM
oh
@AkivaWeinberger Remember you were telling me about the observation at one point that you found it weird how $z^n$ has antiderivative $z^{1+n}/(1+n)$ for all $n$ but $n = -1$?
Here's a pretty interesting physical-chemical consequence of that: say $A \to P$ be a chemical reaction (reactant -> product). Rate of the reaction is $r = -d[A]/dt$, where $[A]$ is the concentration of reactant at time $t$ (the minus indicates the rate of dissipation of reactant).
Furthermore, one knows $r \propto [A]^x$ where $x$ is a number known as the "order" of the reactant, which agrees with the stoichiometric coefficient (eg $n$ in $nA \to A_n$) of $A$ for "really simple" reactions, but is an experimental constant in general. Let $k$ be the proportionality constant, so write $r = d[A]/dt = k[A]^x$. If you start with initial concentration $[A]_0$ of $A$ at time $t = 0$, then you can solve the differential equation with that initial condition.
In particular you can find the "half-life", which is a time $t := t_{1/2}$ at which point the concentration $[A]_{t = t_{1/2}} = [A]_0/2$ is exactly half the initial concentration. Really simple computation shows only order 1 (x = 1) reaction has $t_{1/2}$ independent of the initial concentration $[A]_0$
Hi Mike
So in particular, as a consequence of your observation, radioactive decay (an example of order 1 reactions) have half-life independent of initial active mass (analogue of concentration for non-liquid reactant). Or rather, using that fact you can identify radioactive decay as order 1 reactions. Cool, eh?
@Balarka Cool indeed. I didn't know why half-life was independent of sample size, or whether that held true for other kinds of decay.
14:49
Yeah, apparently it is so for order 1 reactions. Really strange.
Chapter 1 is finished, I'll let every thing cool down before continuing
It's a consequence of the decay being exponential, @Fargle, as you can see if you solve $d[A]/dt = -k[A]$. (EDIT: Damn, I messed up a minus sign above. Fix that mentally)
Right.
Nice, @Astyx. Don't forget to do some exercises.
I figured I'd do them once I reread the whole chapter (still before moving on to chapter 2)
14:52
@BalarkaSen I'll just pretend $k < 0$.
I always found cool how you derive the rate from the elementry reactions
Hmm, I am currently wondering if I know examples of unimolecular reactions which are not elementary.
I have one in my notes somwhere
That is cool
14:55
Wait, what do you mean by "unimolecular reaction" ?
$$N_2O_3 \to 2NO_2 + {1\over 2}O_2$$
The strange thing isn't that it's not of the form $\frac{z^{n+1}}{n+1}+C$; $~\ln z+C$ already is of that form, sort of. $\displaystyle\lim_{n\to-1}\frac{z^{n+1}-1}{n+1}=\ln z$. The strange thing is that, over $\Bbb C$, $~z^n$ has an antiderivative at all except for $n=-1$, where it has no global antiderivative.
@Astyx Only one reactant molecule is involved. Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted!
The elementary reactions being $$\begin{align}N_2O_3 &\to NO_2 + NO_3\\NO_2 + NO_3 &\to NO + NO_2 + O_2\\NO + N_2O_3 &\to 3NO_2\end{align}$$
Yeah. Very cool, man.
@AkivaWeinberger I agree. Also, fun observation on it being already of that form.
(The reason the above limit fails for $\Bbb C$, of course, is that $z^{n+1}$ isn't globally defined for noninteger $n$.)
15:14
Absorbing elements are weird
That's why you should stick to groups and forget about fields
And don't even get me started on rings
15:33
Oh I hate chemistry.
I don't remember the parts of chemistry which aren't physics so well
Naming conventions, for instance, I remember little of
as in organic stuff?
I hate that
I hate balancing equations.
and answering those little questions that are basically just there to save the world.
like "calculate when the geothermal system would pay for itself"
or "write a 500 word essay on the benefits of a hybrid car"
"write an essay about fossil fuels and create an action plan to reduce your carbon footprint in your home"
Does anyone have the book: Irresistible Integrals: Symbolics, Analysis and Experiments in the Evaluation of Integrals
15:52
oh that's not the full book.
I don't mind balancing equations. It appeals to the puzzle solver in me.
is there a way to show latex ex. in mobile
@Dodsy you have the book
@Zophikel anyways I found it online, I won't post it here. I thought that would've been okay because it was right off the cambridge website but it turns out it was a preview. You can definitely find it online, no problem. But I don't condone "stealing" books and don't really want to implicate myself. if you're determined enough, you'll find the book online. That's all I will say.
And silence fell over the room.
@Semiclassical I don't even know how to do it.
all right @Dodsy
16:05
Balancing equations is basically linear algebra
lmfao, I just got my chemistry unit back
I received 100%
I just handed it in yesterday too.
They should teach people how to convert them to matrices should they find it easier
That'd be cool
16:11
Hey baywatch
Well, the other way to view it is as vector algebra
I was thinking about how to solve this ODE $(1-x^2)y'' -2xy' + 6y = 0,y(1) = 2 $?
Ha ha :) @Dodsy
Namely, how can I take an integer combination of one set of basis vectors and get an integer combination of other basis vectors
Like I was thinking something is there in that ODE
That looks Bessel-ish?
16:13
like I can see that there derivative of $x^2$ as $2x$ there
oh
Is that how it works with equations like this?
You find the anti derivative of the coefficients?
I see.
Y(1) = 2
16:15
Not really. It's more that certain equations show up so much that their solutions pick up specific names
So some function $f(x) = 2$
or $f(1) = 2$
Eh, it's nothing that simple
@Semiclassical In Bessel the coefficient of $y$ is $(x^2 - n^2)$
I see.
Ah, so n=1 might work
16:17
Let $\vec{a}$ and $\vec{b}$ are vectors on $\mathbb{R}^2$. For the angle bisector vector of $\vec{a}$ and $\vec{b}$, do we have to choose the small angle between them? does it's defition state it, or can we take which one we want?
and here it is just a constant
I don't know off the top of my head if n=1 will be Bessels ODE directly
If it's a bisector
then it's right in the middle of the angle that a and b make.
If it bisects the small angle, it also bisects the large angle
So it shouldn't matter
@BAYMAX hmm, I'd missed that 1-x^2 was the coefficient of y'' not y
16:23
@Semiclassical so then $x^2 - n^2 = 6$
Yes
Is that how you solve these bessel functions?
@Dodsy Which really means that it doesn't work. You'd need the coefficients to agree for all $x$
Ah, I see.
so, how do we know it's length?
16:25
Of the bisector?
Well first I'd choose the small angle.
So while it's reminiscent of Bessel, the solutions aren't Bessel functiond
So probably Bessel's ode is the wrong bet. But I think it's still be worth looking at a table of known second-order ODEs. Might get lucky.
and find a third vector that connects the two vectors
actually it is Legendre Differential Equation :)
16:29
Nuts
Like it would be interesting if we gather all set of popularly known second order differential equations :)
Well, if it works it works
yes
Well, Chebyshev and Legendre polynomials are big orthogonal polynomials on the interval [-1,1]
actually my problem is that does it's length matter? we can find many vectors that bisects the angle. so they are all angle bisector vector?
16:31
Though with different weight functions
yes
Like $\int_{-1}^{1}P_{n}P_{m} dx = 0$
if $m \neq n$
and = $\frac{2}{2n + 1}$ if $m = n$
@AbdullahUYU I was under the impression that a bisector bisects an angle equally, however, i think I know what you mean. If we mark the vector as being (1,4) or (2,8) it's the same vector. Does the length matter? No, not really.
They both should fall into the Jacobi family of orthogonal polynomials
16:34
Jacobi family of orthogonal polynomials ?
Yeah. As such they satisfy ODEs of the form of Jacobi's ODE: mathworld.wolfram.com/JacobiDifferentialEquation.html
ha ha
class of classical
:)
Yes, and you're learning about it from Semiclassical :>
yes
I'm sure you'd usually make an equation for the line which bisects the angle, where any input into t still bisects the angle. And you could find infinitely many points on the bisector line.
16:36
but it was a sense of humour due to a wiki article line
So, I'd say that the length does not matter.
yeah, i got @Dodsy
In mathematics, Jacobi polynomials (occasionally called hypergeometric polynomials) P(α, β)n(x) are a class of classical orthogonal polynomials. They are orthogonal with respect to the weight (1 − x)α(1 + x)β on the interval [−1, 1]. The Gegenbauer polynomials, and thus also the Legendre, Zernike and Chebyshev polynomials, are special cases of the Jacobi polynomials. The Jacobi polynomials were introduced by Carl Gustav Jacob Jacobi. == Definitions == === Via the hypergeometric function === The Jacobi polynomials are defined via the hypergeometric function as follows: ...
first line :)
I figured, heh
There's also the Gegenbaur polynomials
But if the question said "what is the length of the bisector from the angle made by A and B to vector AB" that's a different question entirely.
16:37
Hey is there any source which lists all kinds of these special differential equations
@Semiclassical
There's probably a list of common Sturm-Liouville ODEs somewhere,yeah
THese are Sturm Liouville ODES?
thanks
how you did that for the link?
like simply a l ine
except a block para as above in my case
Ah. [ link name ] ( html )
except without the spaces.
Yup. It's handy.
Not sure why that didn't work for you, @akiva
'Cause I did it on purpose
16:44
ah :P
thanks
Is there anywhere on chrome I can save the links
like nott bookmark
Bookmark is the only one I know off hand
I love bookmark manager
I have a little folder with my last name on it
any other interactive browser
that includes everything in the world!
16:49
Hello Ted
Even though you're probably not here
hololulu @TedShifrin
Where'd he go
Salut, @Astyx et tout le monde.
Hi @Ted
C'est bien l'Italie ?
Ou c'est plus tard ?
16:50
Bonjour Ted Shifrin, Comme sa va?
Balarka, you're supposed to be gone for weeks!
I am. Somewhat.
Hi = Hololulu for BAYMAX :)
Hi, Nate. Moving on to Paris early in the morning.
He won't even talk to me, Ted.
And that's great!
16:51
Berlin so far, Astyx.
Germany would be great.
Oh, so Italy is after France
did you get banned earlier today
Do you speak any german?
@BalarkaSen Who, me?
Last night, yes.
16:52
Because of ducky.
ez to guess
Yes, Nate, but disappointingly.
@Dodsy This is getting annoying
Is the flagging continuing unflaggingly?
@Astyx Oh, I didn't mean to annoy, friend.
16:53
I'm not sure one can flag flags
@Dodsy Sure, I'm not blaming you
No.
Astyx, you organizing pour moi? :)
@TedShifrin My parents go to Germany a lot to visit paper plants, I heard they're very accommodating to people who cannot speak German.
@TedShifrin We are slowly but surely coming to an agreement :p
Yes, but I want to speak decent German. The folks working the bar in
Is your trip purely touristic ? Or are you there to attend some conference ?
16:56
my hotelhave been very nice :)
I am retired, dammit. I came to see the city and to meet Danu.
haha it sounds like you're enjoying yourself!
Nothing better than going to european bars and relaxing, Ted.
I googled "Barbin" trying to figure out what you're talking about.
You can be retired and still enjoy conferences :p
Oh. Okay ..
Where will you be going in Italy ?
Genova, Cinque Terre, Como, Trieste
16:59
Cool, I've never been to any of these cities
@Astyx, you're lucky I tolerate you all ... or unlucky.
You're lucky we tolerate your tolerance
haha :o)
Well, I should go do homework
I want to finish it tonight so i can start studying functions next week.
Well, less tolerance is easily arranged.
Have a good trip Ted.
Enjoy the german brew.
17:01
I'll have to leave too
It is disappointing.
See ya on saturday (I hope we'll have arranged something by then)
We'd better, Astyx:) I'll treat you guys to lunch.
So it was Hippa, JeSuis and LeGrandDoo right ?
Someone's missing.
17:03
I'll check LeGrandDodo knows what's going on
There you and me too, I'm not sure anyone else is missing
Anyway, bye !
Awww, just missed him.
Oh wait, no, I can't read. Hi @Ted.
17:25
Heya @Ted/chat
Actually, @Fargle, you can read — I was gone. Hi @Krijn.
@TedShifrin Ah. How is it so far?
Doing fine. On to Paris on the morrow (early).
Where are you at the moment?
Somewhere in Europe then, I guess
Yup, München.
17:35
Oh, I was there two weeks ago
Jealous! I've always wanted to see Muenchen--my grandmother is from Bavaria.
Pretty close really
Did you get a reply/retort, @Fargle?
@TedShifrin I did!
17:36
Oh, hush. I'm 22, this is the prime time of my life to be overly worried about interpersonal interaction.
Well, fine, then. Was he mean?
Hi @Alessandro.
Not at all. He even said he'd be glad to look at the things I've been working on research-wise to lend a second hand.
See? Nicer than me :)
17:52
@TedShifrin o/
Salut @Hippa
how are you
Recovering from the 9 hour time change — dinnertime in Europe ;)

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