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19:02
@AlessandroCodenotti Yes, I can. Consider $\{\frac{1}{n} ~|~ n \in \mathbb{N}\}$. I thought of this not too long after I left the chatroom. Taking walks have remarkable impact on mathematical progress. The example I gave generalizes in an obvious to the plane: $\{\frac{1}{n} ~|~ n \in \mathbb{N}\} \times \{0\}$
yup that works
for a more extreme example is $\Bbb Q^2$ open, closed, both or neither in $\Bbb R^2$? Is it countable?
19:52
Home at last
When will you get some results back?
rehi @PaulP :P
or Paul:P
mid June @Alessandro
Paul:P P
20:20
Salut @Astyx, @Alessandro, un-un-sleeping Balarka
Hi Ted
So you made it back safely from Poitiers, eh?
I did :)
Comme c'est épatant, ça.
Hi @Ted
20:23
Hi Balarka btw
hi to you too
Well, this is an embarrassing question, unless I'm being embarrassingly stooopid.
What's $\alpha$ anyway ?
$1\le\alpha,\beta\le n$.
@TedShifrin It does seem to be the former.
20:28
Hello!!

To stevedorenaut a boat by 4 canes 6,5 hours are needed. After 2,5 hours we can use one additional crane. How much time do we gain at the stevedorenaut?

Could someone of you give me an idea?
Maybe they forgot to say it's $1$ for $\alpha = \beta$, in which case it's just saying isometries are local diffeomorphisms, which are by definition true.
So still embarrassing anyhow.
Hello there everybody
Hi Daminark
How's it going?
@MaryStar Compute the speed at which one crane works @MaryStar
20:30
@Balarka: Did you think my question was a reasonable thing to ask? :D
hi Demonark
Embarrassing because he is asking a question without giving enough information for us to understand what he means (or at least we have to deduce it). I tend to ignore such questions : if you're going to ask something, ask it well.
No, @Astyx: Embarrassing because as he phrased it it's totally wrong.
An isometry has to be a bijection, and constant maps are far from that.
@Astyx How could we do that?
20:32
yes I know
I think this person must be learning about manifolds and has no idea what local coordinates mean. I dunno.
@MaryStar what's the speed of the four cranes working together ?
@TedShifrin Ya.
@Daminark Learning geometry.
And here's another one. What is going on? All of MSE has been Trumpified.
20:34
rip
@Astyx Is the speed maybe 6,5/4?
And cool @Balarka
@Balarka: You have more to stump me today?
@MaryStar that's not of the right unit
@TedShifrin I learnt why geodesics $\iff$ locally arclength minimizing.
But moving ahead now.
20:38
Ah, that's the nice Lie derivative structure equations argument @Eric posted in two lines the other day :P
He remarked it was so much nicer than the "usual" way. :D
Oh? I do it by Gauss's lemma and working in polar coordinates in little exponentiated charts.
Are you talking about moving frames?
@Astyx I got stuck right now. Could you give me a hint?
Is there an easy way to get the eigenvalues from a real symmetric matrix?
what are you stuck on @MaryStar
Yup, the moving frames argument for first variation of arclength is much easier than geodesic polar coordinates :P
20:41
Maybe the spectral theorem?
In a vague sense, what are moving frames?
@Lozansky: The spectral theorem just tells you they're all real.
Yeah
So it doesn't help to actually get the eigenvalues/vectors
Demonark: Have you seen Frenet frames on curves yet? (Look at section 1.2 of my notes.) Generalization to higher dimensions ... locally.
Frames that are not motionless I guess
20:42
Nope, @Lozansky. There's nothing special to do unless you have a very special symmetric matrix.
Argh
@Astyx: Frames that move adapted to your (sub)manifold :P
It doesn't look particularly special but what do I know
How big, @Lozansky? $20\times 20$?
@Ted I have not, I'll check it out
20:42
Haha
I feel the urge to run and hide whenever moving frames come up.
$3x3$
Im just lazy
Then just compute.
And if they're not all real, you know you messed up bigly.
@Balarka: You really need to get past that whining.
I don't like computing
Who does ?
20:43
You're as bad as Demonark.
I do, actually.
We did finally do a more proper treatment of differential forms in difftop
@Astyx Is maybe 4/6.5 what they can to do in one hour?
@MaryStar Yes
Well making some assumptions ..
My adviser was one of the premier calculators amongst theoretical mathematicians, and I thought it an admirable skill.
What assumptions? @Astyx
20:45
You have to assume they work at a constant speed @MaryStar
We can make that assumptions, or not? @Astyx
@Mary I believe they expect you to anyway
And it's a reasonnable approximation to make, in most cases
@Ted I guess it depends qhat you call calculations anyway
@Ted I'm fine with computing a function which is 0 potentially on an uncountable set though!
I'm like, experienced at that
I think I'll just talk with @Eric and ignore everyone else.
"I can integrate ze zero function"
20:47
Sad react
@TedShifrin You forgot me.
Mr. Bond, you don't believe in exercises. You're worse than they are.
6
I like it that you have strong views. Just like me. =)
Bourne, now, to my knowledge
@TedShifrin Don't ignore us mortals who can't do moving frames :( On the other hand, I guess I can be a full-time hippie and do topology then.
20:49
@Secret A nonassociative derivative would be weird… if the product rule holds, then the derivative of $x(xx)-(xx)x$ is $0$.
(The derivative of $x(xx)$ would be $x(x+x)+(1)xx=xx+xx+xx=3x^2$)
Many pretty girls have been approaching me to buy insurance. I tell them I have no money but they don't believe me. Maybe I am too handsome.
Ah ok. So, we know that the 4 cranes make 4/6.5 of the work in one hour. The first 2,5 hours we have 4 cranes so they have done 4/6.5*2,5 of the work. Then we can have 5 cranes. They make 5/6,5 of work per hour? @Astyx
Right @MaryStar
Oh damn, frame
That's the word I forgot about in my english exam
oops lol
I guess the next step is looking at the derivatives of $x(x(xx))$, $x((xx)x)$, $(x(xx))x$, $((xx)x)$, and $((xx)(xx))$. Which is too many for me. @Secret
20:51
Actually, although I don't believe in exercises, I believe in calculations. I think the first stage of math is where you do calculations, the second stage is where you do proofs, and the third is where you realise both calculations and proofs are important.
I've heard that before @Jason
@Jason What's the logic in not liking exercises?
@Astyx Oh, where did you hear that?
@JasonBourne Most exercises tend to be either calculations or proofs, in my experience
On this chat two days ago or so :p
20:52
So, 4/6.5*2,5 of the work is already done. Let x be the hours that we have 5 cranes. Then the rest of the work is 5/6,5*x.
When we add this (4/6.5*2,5+5/6,5*x) what does the result have to be? @Astyx
And on Tao's blog once someone posted it
Demonark: Here's another terrible Jumble pun for you. "The flock of birds was sellings its roosts and hoped that other birds would ----" (7/4) HHMEESRPCET
@Astyx Ah, now you know I am not plagiarising anyone. This three stages thing is a very common description.
@MaryStar You tell me
@Jason In any case you are entitled to have the same opinion as someone else
What's a good read on manifolds ?
Wikipedia ? (joking)
Guillemin & Pollack is excellent, @Astyx. You could watch a few of my lectures, too, for something simple.
20:55
Oh, good idea
They have to do what the 4 cranes make in 6,5 hours, so does this mean that $\frac{4}{6.5}\cdot 2.5+\frac{5}{6.5}\cdot x=\frac{4}{6.5}\cdot 6.5 \Rightarrow \frac{4}{6.5}\cdot 2.5+\frac{5}{6.5}\cdot x=4$ ? @Astyx
@Daminark I find that some exercises are just too specific and don't really show what is generally important. And the thing about important results being left to exercises, well, I think they should just be put in the main text instead. Maybe all the exercises I have been assigned to do weren't very good, which led me to have this viewpoint.
GP is love GP is life
@Astyx Needless to say, as everyone in this chat knows, I am a fan of Lee and I like his three books on manifolds: Topological, smooth, and riemannian manifolds by John M Lee.
Do you guys have a printed version of these books ? or just pdfs ?
20:56
I have my copy extensively side-noted on the margins so it contains more material than what's in there. (also solutions to exercises)
I have a hard copy.
@Astyx I have a hardcopy of his books. But many kids these days prefer PDFs. I am old fashioned.
I'd prefer hard copies, but damn, the price of some of those ..
@BalarkaSen No ramen, no life. Know ramen, know life. Slogan outside a ramen shop.
To get an introduction to manifolds, @Astyx does not need to read an 800 page book.
I don't like Lee's smooth manifolds.
20:58
I'd gladly read more than what I need to barely get introduced to be honest
@Astyx In general, Springer and AMS books are reasonably priced. Those by Wiley, Pearson, McGraw Hill are not.
I'm tired of pretending to do math and stopping once it gets interresting
@Astyx Good!
For the pdf issue: most of the books I am working on right now are in pdf. No money man
G&P prove some amazing results that are not found in comparable more technical books.
What you can do is find an online printing service
20:59
I have a hard copy of Artin, Hatcher and G-P. That's all.
and print your books
for like 10 euros
Where'd you get those pdfs if I may ?
illegal downloads
except for Hatcher
google libgen ;)
I would like to add that I use the PDFs for evaluation before deciding whether to buy a book, since I don't have access to a good library. But I think if one can afford one should buy the books to be fair to the authors and publishers, otherwise in future books will become extinct.
21:00
@TedShifrin Copyleft is very good.
So I figured Ted :p
But as to whether it is illegal, I think it depends on the laws of the area you live in.
There are lots and lots of algebraic geometry books available online
Publishers are making books way too expensive, so they're forcing people like me to quit publishing textbooks. Truly.
It's sort of like our current government — only the rich should be able to afford to be healthy.
2
(and educated)
21:01
And also, law and morality are different things. What is legal may be immoral, what is moral may be illegal. But that's another story for another day.
Right, I hear there's a good differential geometry book available for free online somewhere
I'm referring specifically to the health bill that the House passed, @Balarka. Lots more things are true ...
Ah yes
(and rich)
DogAteMy: If I were very energetic, I'd spend a year typing up my graduate course and drawing nice pictures, but I'm not that energetic.
21:02
@AkivaWeinberger Actually, there are lots of lectures notes and books available on the authors' websites.
Lol my textbook usage strategy is not compatible with purchasing them
Yeah, Pete Clark writes prolifically ... and writes well.
Demonark: Did you see my Jumble for you above?
Oh stop it, guys.
Yeah I'm still thinking about this one
21:03
@BalarkaSen Indeed the one I was referring to.
I don't get the Jumble pun.
But yeah I rarely have one book I work out of fully, I just kinda bounce around and figure things out. That's a large part of why I prefer having some kind of class
@TedShifrin I truly like your differential geometry book, though I only read the surface bit. It's very enlightening.
Well, the classes I attended were mostly not very good.
@TedShifrin The only thing of his I've read is his "real induction" thing, and that was very good
21:04
You have to solve for it, @Balarka.
What's the Artin book everyone is talking about ?
I disapprove pedagogically of his making a big deal about real induction in the beginning Spivak course, DogAteMy, but he's stubborn. Nevertheless, it's interesting for more advanced students.
Algebra, @Astyx.
@Astyx M. Artin, "Algebra"
Thanks
Michael Artin (as opposed to his father, Émil)
21:05
Meh Ted beat me to it
Or at least like, a reading group with other people where we're lecturing each other or something to that effect. I sorta need something more active, otherwise I'll lose focus quickly
(A creative title, as textbook titles go)
You need to grow up eventually (like by grad school), Demonark.
Lol both of you beat me in saying Emil Artin's geometric algebra
@Daminark Same here.
21:06
Better than ... " ... a Geometric Approach," DogAteMy :D
There is another book that covers abstract and linear algebra together, and that is MacLane's Algebra.
Is there a difference between the 2017 version and the 1991 version ? (except the date)
I lose focus without talking to people on what I am reading.
@Jason I've heard about MacLane
Is it just different editions ?
21:06
@Astyx: There is a second edition, but it's not 2017. It's 2011.
Is there now a third edition?
@Astyx Artin's Algebra is in its second edition. Uusally later editions have more material and errors are corrected.
I have the 2nd edition, for what it's worth.
Hello, I have this question let $(E,d)$ be a metric space and $\delta =\min(1,d)$ how to show that $(E,\delta)$ is bounded and what it's diameter ?please
Me too. I had bought the first, but gave it away when I purged my office.
Google tells me there are 2017, 2013 and 1991 versions
21:07
@Balarka Lol, I am still not sure about whether I have some kind of ADHD or not. I know when I was younger my focus was capped at literally 3-5 seconds
oh wow, I wonder what he put in the third edition, @Astyx. Let me go look.
@Ted I just cracked it open a few days ago to read about the Lie algebra and exponential map from a linear group theoretic perspective :)
@Astyx Find out more then by studying the web pages.
And needed to have therapy (NY therapy was good, they had people from the state go to your house and all, compared to what I've seen in Texas)
I might be mistaken though
21:08
@Daminark Actually, I don't even believe in ADHD. I consider short attention spans to be just natural variation. =)
My focus is no longer that bad, luckily, but it's not the best, though I haven't been diagnosed yet
@Astyx: I can't find a later edition.
@Astyx have you an idea about my question please
What shrinks do is put a label on certain sets of conditions, but they really don't know much about these problems.
@Vrouvrou No, firstly because I don't know what the question is
21:10
@Jason I mean, so I don't know medicine and can't say whether ADHD is just, there's a spectrum and some people fall very low on it, or if there's a particular type of brain misfiring going on
And I might not have a lot of time right now
Hello, I have this question let $(E,d)$ be a metric space and $\delta =\min(1,d)$ how to show that $(E,\delta)$ is bounded and what it's diameter ?please
@Daminark Hm, I don't have a clinically diagnosed problem, but I spend a day understanding very easy things. I just look at it, it looks hard at a glance, don't feel like understanding it, fiddle around, and come back to it and omg it's been 6hrs already!?!
Math requires long attention spans, so ADHD makes things difficult. IMHO.
@Daminark I am not a psychiatrist, but I have been mentally ill for many years and taken many meds. What I am saying is that some shrinks can help you, but most are quite stupid actually. The good ones know that they don't know much, the bad ones think they know everything.
21:11
But whatever the case may be, medical experts are classifying ADHD as being a diagnosable condition, so I'm rather inclined to take their word for it
@Ted My best math is done while procrastinating :D
@Daminark There are no biological or chemical tests in diagnosing most mental illnesses. They just give a label if your conditions make them tick a number of checkboxes.
Finished them @SimplyBeautifulArt
That's cuz you'd rather do hard math than anything else, @Balarka.
21:12
that's partially why i am not great at computing symbols. can't calculate subconsciously
Except for anything regarding moving frames, which aren't that hard.
@Astyx Good for you
I mean, for one, they studied the subject, at least more than I have, so I'm more or less categorically inclined to take the word of a psychiatrist over that of anyone else. And even the sophisticated ones, to my knowledge, acknowledge it
(Well the written part only @Simply, I have 1 month or so before the oral exams)
lol, well, one step at a time @Astyx
21:13
Oh, @Astyx, the oral exams are after my visit?
Yes @Ted, from mid june to mid july
Ah ... well, a few hours shouldn't cost you too dearly ...
few hours with a deadly arachnid may though. make sure to loose extra eyes before the meeting, Ted!
@ted I watched this movie and I always thought you resemble the lead actor quite a lot. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Blart:_Mall_Cop =)
I found a few more the other night, @Balarka.
21:15
So what other books should I get ? (except from Artin and Guillemin/Pollack)
@Ted Erk
Ugh, really, Mr. Bond? Hundreds of people have now told me I look like Richard Dreyfuss, however.
@Astyx Keep them. If you want anything else, get them from you-know-where
Fair enough. Thanks for your help !
BTW, aside from G-P, Milnor's little book (available online) on differential topology is also helpful.
I don't like it as much but a much lucid guide to keep with you.
21:17
@Balarka So, I find that my issues tend to be of a similar sort. I tire quickly of technicalities/details, more than I ought, and until rather recently I was really bad at actually sticking to something for more than a bit, I'd just get frustrated and say "Well, next up!"
I'll note that somewhere
reminds Demonark and Balarka that they are not solving the Jumble :D
We're procrastinating on it
3
By the way, the most expensive book I ever bought is the 1800 page Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. All grammar nazis should have a copy.
On some of the harder problems this quarter of analysis, I've actually stuck to things and come up with arguments I felt proud of, which only ever happened otherwise in graph theory/linear algebra with Laci (conclusion: I should move to Hungary)
21:19
Is there a pocket edition @Jason ?
@Daminark Hungarian is a difficult language to learn.
@Daminark Yeah I suspect having concrete problem sets assigned to you helps, because you have that "goal" of finishing it than just doing random problems.
It helps for me, in any case!
That's why I have Ted and Mike to assign problems to me :P
@Astyx Well, the student version is 300 pages but it obviously contains much less material. It's A Student's Introduction to English Grammar. Both by Huddleston and Pullum.
@Ted What does 7/4 mean?
@Jason That may be so, but it's mostly when I've done classes under Hungarian mathematicians that I've felt like I've actually done math. In the other quarters of analysis, and to some extent now in difftop, I've felt somewhat like the only arguments I've been able to generate were somewhat lame
21:22
Two words — 7 letters, 4 letters
@Balarka 7 letters in the first word, and 4 in the second word
Ninja'd...
Hrm
the 2nd word is THEM surely
Oh that's probably right
@Daminark I somehow think that Germans are the best mathematicians. There are many good German math books, some translated into English already. I don't like the French and Russian ones so much. I hope that in my next life, I am born in Germany. It is my favourite country. =)
OK I'm not sure you can make such a sweeping statement, like on general principle. I love Germany too, it's a dank place, but like, eh...
21:24
@Daminark It's not a sweeping statement, it's called an opinion, and everyone is entitled to have one. =)
Those two are not mutually exclusive
I like a lot of Russian things but (1) I want to always ever be in this country (2) I want to die when I die, and not have a next life
one life is hard enough
And just because people are entitled to have opinions, doesn't mean they make sense
perches
...
I mean
21:27
Oh... LOL
What are perches?
Prize goes to @Astyx ... the non-native English speaker :P
The french scrabble champion doesn't speak french, so hey
I try to play Scrabble in French, but no one will play with me :(
Oh perches is the word game you are playing.
21:28
One day maybe ... @Ted :p
That's a Demonark-style pun.
@TedShifrin I had great difficulty in learning how to pronounce the French R.
I am still dumb founded at how horrible this pun is
It's Balarka-level, too.
No it's not!
Please don't offend me!
21:29
One of the kids I was tutoring was having terrible trouble pronouncing RURAL in English, Mr. Bond.
It's about the level of math puns you were throwing at Mike and me a while ago, Balarka.
did he pronounce it as reural
If you play scrabble, then you must have a big dictionary, like Chambers Dictionary or Collins English Dictionary. At least that's what they get in the UK.
That was Balarka 1.0
had trouble saying the second R
(I'm the latest version)
21:30
When will the 2.0 be released ?
no, that might have been Balarka 1.8.
I'm 2.2
Oh it already has ? Cool
Unstable package ?
2.3 is unstable
dont release unstable versions
21:30
I think the biggest American dictionary you can get today is Webster's Third New International Dictionary. 2800 pages.
I have the two volume Shorter Oxford English Dictionary at 3700 pages.
I wonder if I have a 1.0 emulator somewhere... do I want to find it? nah
What updates have been released in the more recent editions of Balarka?
Will Balarka go commercial some day ? When ?
Yeah, "rural juror" is an infamous one.
Oh lawd @Akiva
Hey @Mike!
21:32
@BalarkaSen my lord no
Hadn't heard of that before, DogAteMy.
g'night, @MikeM
Night?
@Daminark pretentious 60's hipster, with nonzero knowledge in foliation theory and less horrible puns
I hope to hear from Mr Eyeglasses soon.
I don't remember his email anymore because it was supercomplicated.
Oh, I emailed him some math stuff ages ago.
21:33
@MikeMiller I knew you'd be dismayed. I was too.
i frequently get dismayed but what i say
Do you guys think SE has degenerated? I think the site was much better when it first started, in various ways.
Time for me to vanish- bye !
see ya
à bientôt, @Astyx
It's far worse since I'm here, that's all @Jason
21:36
@Astyx Well, your pink avatar alone makes this site better already. =)
(I wonder if people with auto-generated avatars have their avatars memorized)
mine is green and goes swirly
(Like, Astyx or Balarka, could you draw yours from memory?)
I think I prefer the older Bond movies to the newer ones because the newer ones have too much action. I prefer a little action and more drama.
21:38
The symmetry makes it easier I guess
You only really need to remember three shapes
However, all the Bourne movies have even more action.
Actually, too much action is unrealistic. In reality, one hard punch and a person should collapse.
I mean, realism is not what many movies are going for
my favorite fight scene: youtube.com/watch?v=-mm4mLsCAyI
6 solid minutes of gripping fight to death
Has anyone watched Alien Covenant already? I think it is showing now.
I have no idea why Dr Shaw doesn't appear in the trailers.
@Balarka whoa
21:45
lol strange without context isn't it
For sure
they're fighting their head off for those goggles
@Astyx The Cambridge Grammar of the English Languages is really the holy grail of English grammar, there is no comparison to it. Don't confuse it with Cambridge Grammar of English, which is a totally different book.
@BalarkaSen Those goggles must let them see the solutions to the math exam.
Yo @Eric
Yoyo
21:47
@Daminark I see you study math in a very good math department. =) Good for you.
Okay. I am asked to compute the 100th derivative of $p(x) = (x+x^5 + x^7)^{10}(1+x^2)^{11}(x^3 + x^5 + x^7)$. There has to be some clever way of doing this without expanding. I could use a hint, but only a hint please.
@user193319 When you keep taking derivatives of a polynomial, what happens to the degree of it?
@BalarkaSen Called it before I clicked.
:)
funny thing is that i disliked the movie after i watched it first time (didn't have taste for cult classics back then), but now i see how powerful a movie it really is
@JasonBourne Oh...shoot. This polynomial is at most 99 degree, right? So the derivative would be $0$, right?
21:50
bizarre shit
@Jason lol, thanks
@user193319 I think so. My brain is not working well, so you should double check. =)
@BalarkaSen The English chat room is changing. Nowadays if you say shit there your message might be deleted. =)
oh shit that's bad
I am thinking of whether there is a good alternative to study axiomatic geometry. I know about Hilbert's book on the foundations of geometry but that book is ancient. Maybe I can just use Lee's book on that, but he doesn't do 3D.
(this is also great, from the same movie)
21:54
@JasonBourne Haha...Well, the next problem is to compute the 99th derivative. So, either it is zero again, or the coefficient of the 99th term times $99!$ (I think), but I am not sure how to get that coefficient. I could use another hint.
Euclid's Elements is lacking in some rigour, it seems.
@JasonBourne Yeah. I think there are other axiomatizations of geometry from the 1900s (or late 1800s? Not sure) that are better.
Like, in the very first proposition of the Elements, if Euclid thought of axioms the way we did, he'd have to prove that the two circles intersect.
@Ted so in geometry today neves gave a survey on all the big results of the type "curvature controlling topology" that he could think of. Seems kind of wild to me how many problems amount to not knowing whether or not a certain kind of metric exists on some space.
@user193319 Well, you just need to look at the coefficient of the highest term in the polynomial expansion and ignore the rest. That means the coefficient of x to the power of 99. What is that? That is, expand the polynomial first and then differentiate, not the other way round. But of course don't write down the entire expansion.
@Eric Will that be called something like comparison theorems in Riemannian geometry? I don't know.

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