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18:00
@Daminark Something like that. In the $\Bbb C$ world, you can define the winding number as a complex integral.
(Now that I think about it we didn't actually prove that it's an integer...)
Sit down and play with it, @Eric. This is actually how I derived first-variation of arclength in my notes, I believe.
Will do
You just love coming here to get more homework :D
I just like bashing things out tbh
18:01
bashing?
like working
@Daminark I'm not sure what the angle form is, but we defined the winding number of the point $z$ outside the support of $\gamma$ as $\displaystyle\text{Ind}_\gamma(z)=\frac1{2\pi i}\int\limits_\gamma \frac{\text{d}w}{w-z}$
Oh wait that's clever, you can use residue theorem to get that it's an integer
@Alessandro: If you work out $\dfrac{dz}z$, you see that the imaginary part is exactly $\dfrac{-y\,dx+x\,dy}{x^2+y^2} = d\theta$.
That's basically circular reasoning, no pun intended, Demonark.
@TedShifrin: Take the Galois closure of $F$ in $K$; that's a subfield of order $|Gal(K/F)|$
18:03
Do you use this fact in order to prove the residue theorem?
And degree of subextension divides degree of big extension.
@Daminark It's a bit more painful to define the winding number for curves which are not piecewise $C^1$
Hmm, I was pondering this, @Balarka. Hold on.
you need to prove that every continuous curve can be approximated well enough by a piecewise continuous one
@Alessandro Every element of $\pi_1(S^1)$ can be represented by a smooth map from $S^1$, even.
18:04
@Alessandro: It suffices to do piecewise polygonal, with segments parallel to the axes.
@TedShifrin yeah, we glossed over some details, but we used piecewise polygonal curves
Right, I agree, @Balarka. Thanks.
No problem.
@BalarkaSen the obvious one turning around $n$ times in the right direction?
no wait, why a map from $S^1$?
@Alessandro Well, that's a much harder theorem.
Elements of $\pi_1(X)$ are maps based homotopy classes of maps $S^1 \to X$
If $M$ is a smooth manifold, every element of $\pi_1(M)$ can be represented by a smooth map from $S^1$. This is smooth approximation stuff.
18:11
Hm, I'll trust you on this one :P
Oh @Ted now I get it, Cauchy integral formula requires you to evaluate that integral
18:24
hi , someone here familiar with "the long line" in topology ?
(@TedShifrin hm , i guess you are ? :P )
So if I'm not violating any rules, I think you should be able to say that $\frac{1}{z}$ is holomorphic away from $0$ (swap in some $z_0$ in other cases), so that you can homotope your curve away from that point and reparametrize so that it becomes a curve from some $[0,2\pi n]$ such that $t\mapsto re^{it}$, so the integral becomes $\int_0^{2\pi n} \frac{1}{re^{it}}ire^{it} dt = 2\pi i n$
Demonark: Well, the curve of course needn't be a circle, so there's something to prove ...
What's the question, @Liad?
Proving that if you have a closed curve, this is homotopic to some $n$-times traversal of the circle?
im trying to show $L$ is connected ( and path connected which implies connected) and $L \ ^ * $ is also connected but not path connected , @TedShifrin
@TedShifrin I see you have the caring personality. You chose relaxation over laughing at someone
18:28
Now I'm not sure how sarcastic you're being, @Causing.
@Liad: What does the star mean?
@TedShifrin L with another point , i saw that somewhere it is called 'the extended long line"
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere Hi! Your question isn't really formatted or written properly!
OK, @Liad. I haven't thought about this stuff in forever.
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere Actually he did answer your question. So what's the problem?
Hi! Welcome to mathematics. Just ask, no need to ask to ask! ....
what? you're not a bot right?
18:32
@TedShifrin that stuff is not easy for me :/
I didn't think there was a problem, @Jason.
@JasonBourne The problem is ... well you. What's the problem in your eyes?
:/
@Liad: I didn't say it was easy. It requires thinking about transfinite induction or something, and I actually have never taught this stuff.
I wasn't being sarcastic or anything I just looked over your answer and realized the way you wrote it out
huh, fine im stuck on calculus question that will be easy for you :P @TedShifrin
18:34
OK, no big deal, @Causing :)
The way we did this in class was to define $\displaystyle g(h)=\int\limits_a^h\frac{\gamma'(t)}{\gamma(t)-z}\text{d}t$ (which is the same integral as the winding number), then we defined $\varphi(h)=e^{g(h)}$ and we showed that $\varphi(b)=1$, so $g(b)=2\pi i m$ and the winding number is $m$ for some integer $m$ @Dami
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere Well, I just didn't know what you meant by relaxation or laughing at someone, but it seems there is no problem, and so there is no problem.
It's weird that you're doing all this totally abstract topology at the same time you're doing basic multivariable calculus, @Liad.
why it is weird?
18:35
@TedShifrin I guess multivariable calculus isn't taught properly in many places.
Well, "properly" depends on the audience.
Well you can always homotope your curve to lie on the unit circle so that it becomes $e^{i\alpha(t)}$, say parametrized by $[0,1]$
No you can't, Demonark.
@TedShifrin i have a curve $\gamma : [0,L] \to R \ ^ 3$ , $||\gamma(t) || = ||\gamma'(t)|| = 1 $ and $L = Len (\gamma)$ , i need to prove that $||\gamma(t)'' || \ge 1$
Demonark: Proving that any path on the circle is homotopic to some $e^{2\pi ikt}$ is nontrivial.
18:37
Well if your curve is $c(t)$, and it's lying in the punctured plane, can't you just say $H(s,t) = \frac{c(t)}{1-s+s\|c(t)\|}$?
Something's wrong there, @Liad. Care to proofread?
i know that $<\gamma' , \gamma '' > = 0$
By the way @CausingUnderflowsEverywhere you need to put a \ like \sin to make it look like sin in LaTeX.
Demonark: If your curve never goes through the origin, you can of course homotop it to a curve lying on the unit circle. But it may go forward and backwards and wind a bunch of times.
and from cauchy we have $<\gamma , \gamma '' > \le ||\gamma'' || $ but i cant go further, @TedShifrin
18:39
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere Compare $sin$ and $\sin$.
@Liad: I agree that $\|\gamma'(t)\|=1$. Do you really know $\|\gamma(t)\|=1$ for all $t$ (so you're on the unit circle)?
So what prevents you from kinda saying that this path on the unit circle "lifts" some a parametrizable path in the exponent?
@TedShifrin yea it is given
OK, sorry, so we're in $\Bbb R^3$ and the curve is on the unit sphere. My apologies.
Right, now the problem makes sense.
:)
18:41
Have you done Frenet formulas? What have you done?
no idea what frenet is
Frenet and Serret, interesting combo.
OK. So you do know that $\langle\gamma'',\gamma'\rangle = \langle\gamma',\gamma\rangle = 0$.
i have $<\gamma, \gamma '' > \le ||\gamma''||$ , i cant control the left hand side of this inequality
@TedShifrin i know only that $<\gamma ' , \gamma '' > =0$
You also know the second one, because $\|\gamma(t)\|=1$ for all $t$, you told me.
18:44
why this implies the other one?
I was wondering if all cartesian closed categories are also locally cartesain closed. Besides from this question, is Set locally cartesian closed?
Same proof that you used for yours.
alright, i believe you. how can i go further :P
Differentiate $\langle\gamma,\gamma'\rangle = 0$?
hm
18:46
@Ted I'm playing here with things I barely understand, but could you use that $\mathbb{R}$ is the universal cover of $S^1$ in order to lift our path such that it can be homotoped there?
I actually assign this in the G&P course, typically, Demonark, with more hint than Guilllemin gives. Yeah, you want to lift the path to a map $[0,1]\to\Bbb R$ and see where it ends up there.
Lifting is definitely my favorite proof
Guillemin and Pollack is one book I never looked at closely.
@TedShifrin isn't it $<\gamma' , \gamma' > $ ?
That's only half of it, @Liad.
18:49
yea multiply by 2
(Also, use \langle and \rangle, not < >.)
but we have $=0$ so i omitted it
NO, not multiply by 2.
There's a product rule, remember?
yea im re-writing it now
Hello @waiting, how are you? It's J here. You went to the wrong room, I think.
18:51
So let's call that map $\alpha$, then naively one would want to directly homotope $\alpha$ to $x(t) = (1-t)\alpha(0) + t\alpha(1)$, and say that this translates back down to a homotopy from our path to an $n$-times traversal of the circle
Does this check out or is there something wrong?
That's correct, Demonark. The hard part is creating $\alpha$ as a smooth map and seeing that the endpoint tells you the degree of the original map :)
we have $\lim_{h \to 0} \dfrac{ \langle \gamma(t+h ),\gamma'(t+h ) \rangle -\langle \gamma(t ),\gamma'(t ) \rangle } {h}$
Alright, I'll table this until tomorrow when we actually define degree, and perhaps wait until we prove the Hopf degree theorem making life even easier :P
Hello, chat!
Hey @Fargle!
18:54
What's going on, @Daminark?
@Liad. What are you doing?!! Just write down the product rule for the derivative of $\langle \gamma(t),\gamma'(t)\rangle$.
Everything's doing alright, how about you?
Demonark: You actually need what we're talking about to prove the $n=1$ case, so he might leave that as an exercise.
@TedShifrin huh, i tried going "by def. "
hi @Fargle\
18:55
Alright as well. My goal for today is to demystify Cauchy's integral formulas and residue theorem.
Doing the product rule from the definition is not what I want you to do here, @Liad. Just use it.
Stokes's Theorem, @Fargle :P
so it is $1 + \gamma(t) \gamma ''(t)$
alright ? @TedShifrin
Right. $1+\langle \gamma(t),\gamma''(t)\rangle$.
And it equals what?
@TedShifrin There's still a bit of mystery to that for me too, so I guess what I really need is a multivariate refresher. goes to your book
Oh so it's inductive? On the dimension?
18:57
That's how I do it, Demonark.
wait i have the other term is less then $||\gamma''(t)||$
@Liad. Stop. That sum equals what?
Maybe Spivak should write a multivariable calculus book that resembles his calculus book more. =)
That's what my book is.
Spivak ain't writing no more calculus books.
@TedShifrin what is it ?
18:58
@Fargle A noble goal.
What did we differentiate to start with, @Liad?
I concur with Ted that Stokes' theorem is the best way to understand Cauchy integral theorem, which is fundamental to all of those.
huh
Or, if you want, Green's theorem.
@Fargle: If you look at my very last 3510 lecture, I actually did some of this complex variables stuff in there.
18:59
i thought you asked about $\gamma (t) \gamma''(t)$
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the proof in my book (Zill) used Stokes'.
it is equals zero
Right. We differentiated the constant function $0$, so the answer is $0$. (By the way, this technique is used thousands of times in differential geometry.)
@TedShifrin I should really take a look at it some day. I could never find a copy on Russian servers for evaluation. =)
So you have $1+\langle \gamma(t),\gamma''(t)\rangle = 0$. Now play with it and you're done.
19:00
@TedShifrin yea i wasn' sure you talked about this , sorry
@BalarkaSen Concur is such a formal word that I only use agree.
@BalarkaSen it looks like half of the stuff I learnt in the analysis and geometry courses is just a special case of Stokes' theorem
[Weird topology idea] (elaboration available shortly)
Mr. Bond, you're getting downright obnoxious.
19:02
@Fargle Do you remember the Green's theorem? I can tell you a quick proof based on that and point out which bits you should understand, if you want.
@TedShifrin we still have $\gamma(t) \gamma''(t) \le ||\gamma''(t)|| $ , and this completes the proof doesn't it?
Not quite, @Liad, but close. How are you completing?
@BalarkaSen Not well enough where I'd find it very enlightening. We only glossed over it in my multivariable class, which I'm finding out was a cardinal sin.
@Alessandro Hah
Most multivariable calc classes suck.
(And I'm not saying that because of lack of rigor. I'm saying it because key concepts are not well taught. And the most important stuff at the end hardly ever gets covered.)
19:04
@Fargle I wonder if an ordinal sin is more severe than a cardinal sin.
@TedShifrin Exactly. Leaving one not well prepared for complex analysis etc.
@TedShifrin Right, this is exactly what happened to us. Stuff like Green's, Stokes', etc. were presented as Useful Tools rather than as generalizations of FTC.
Consider 3 copies of a topological space "superimposing on each other" i.e. if given a coordinate system, they will share the same (x,y)coordinates

Now those circles are clearly boundaries for two of the topological spaces.

The rules of this topological space is the usual eucledian metric for anywhere except the closure of those red and blue circles

Now:
@TedShifrin i think i got it - $| \gamma(t) \gamma''(t) | = |-1| \le ||\gamma''(t)|| $
There you go, @Liad. Well done.
thanks , you are great teacher :P
19:06
I'm gone for now. Bye, all.
see ya
See you @Ted!
You all behave without Ted around, lol.
@Fargle Ah. Well, I can tell you how I think about Green's.
I always think whether I should write Gauss' theorem or Gauss's theorem and Stokes' theorem or Stokes's theorem.
19:09
I usually suggest Stokes' theorem
"Stoke's"
We define the following rules for sets in this set of 3 topological spaces as follows:

1. Each colored discs (which is a closed set) is surrounded by some open set concentric to the discs of some fixed radius. We call this open set the open set carried by that disc
2. If the discs are moved around, then the open set it carries follows it provided rule 3 does not apply
3. If any discs entered the interior of a different colored open set, the open set it carries will stay put even if the disc continues to move around (in which case, the disc is said to be moving within the topological space
Well, I think all four forms are correct.
@Balarka angreacts only
@Daminark Stoke's theorem is a great theorem.
You should try it sometime.
19:12
I'm so stoked to learn it
lel
Example trajectories:
Blue is moving, red is stationary
Anonymous
@JasonBourne I've seen all of them being used in books. Spellings are one of the least important things in Physics/Maths and that too when they are proper nouns.
Note as soon blue entered red, it is moving within the red copy of the topological space (imagine the whole rectangle is red when you start tracing the red trajectories). It cannot escape from it unless it moves back out from where it entered red
@Eric Classes are up, though none of the professors are there
@blue Interestingly, Gauss and Stokes both have theorem/lemmas/laws named after them in physics also.
19:18
hi chat.
Hi @SemiC
Anonymous
@BalarkaSen Hehe, yeah :P They were multitalented it seems :D
Well, Gauss was also a physicist in his day.
Well in those times math and physics weren't completely distinct disciplines
That too.
I think Gauss did do some experiments, in fact.
Anonymous
19:19
In those days maths+physics+some other stuff=philosophy :D
natural sciences, not philosophy, I think
So calling div E = - rho as Gauss's law seems appropriate
I think back then you would've called it "natural philosophy".
rho/epsilon yeah?
Right, careless.
You don't see Stokes referenced in electromagnetism, by contrast, but you do see him mentioned in fluid mechanics i.e. Stokes flow.
19:21
And, actually, you do see him referenced when it comes to certain optical phenomena (Stokes parameters) though I don't remember what those actually mean. Something something polarization of EM waves.
Stokes' law predicts the force exerted by viscous fluids on freely falling, small, spherical particles
(Per Wikipedia: The Stokes parameters are a set of values that describe the polarization state of electromagnetic radiation. Very precisely stated /s)
To be fair, Stokes parameters are a real pain in the arse.
As evidence, try to look at this page without getting a headache: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_parameters
@BalarkaSen This is a rather nice line about Stokes parameters, actually: "From a geometric and algebraic point of view, the Stokes parameters stand in one-to-one correspondence with the closed, convex, 4-real-dimensional cone of nonnegative Hermitian operators on the Hilbert space C^2."
Guys, I don’t understand why $A^*=B$ makes $x(t)$ real. I’m guessing we want $C$ to be real? But the complex conjugate of $C$ is
$$
C^*=\frac{A^*+B^*}{\cos\phi},
$$
so how does $A^*=B$ help?
@ShaVuklia It's simpler than that. What's the complex conjugate of $e^{-\gamma t}(Ae^{i \omega t}+Be^{-i \omega t})$?
(I dropped the tilde overhead because it's annoying.)
give me 1 sec, I'm not good with complex numbers:P
19:30
@Semiclassical Interesting. I don't know anything about Stokes parameters though.
Keep in mind that $t,\omega,\gamma$ are all real quantities.
@BalarkaSen Yeah, I wouldn't advise looking at them if you don't have to.
But that one statement is cute.
$e^{-\gamma t}(A^*e^{-i\omega t}+B^*e^{i\omega t})$
oh right
ahh
I see now :P
19:32
thx!
Maybe I'm just lazy, but handwriting vec symbols over everything is something I find very tedious, though necessary.
I don't do it always
I also just have bad handwriting, so it turns into a veritable deluge of horizontal ticks.
That's why I prefer to do all my math homework in $\LaTeX$.
19:35
One convention I wish was used more was underlines under vectors instead of the little arrows, e.g. $\underline{r}$
Especially since then you can indicate matrices as two underlines.
But you typically only would have that as a convention in physics where people don't like distinguishing row/column vectors. (Which is actually pretty annoying.)
physics<3
Anonymous
@Fargle Doesn't that take way more time?
I like that, except for how it intersects with letters with a tail. It might not be immediately obvious that $\underline{g}$ is underlined in handwritten sources, for example.
Hey @Waiting :)
19:37
@blue Sure, it takes more time, but I'm fine sacrificing time for readability to counteract my laziness.
I prefer to just make clear at some point what stuff is in R^1 and what stuff is in R^n.
oh cool @Daminark
(and I always take vectors to be column vectors unless there's a T)
Of course, there's a difference between an experienced user debating whether or not to use vec, versus a novice user.
I have written smallish notes in latex. It doesn't take time if you don't give a damn about formatting
but most of the time that's hard to do
For the novice I do think it's better to include vec's if only to avoid silly things like solving $m = x\cdot y\implies x=m/y$ when $x,y$ are vectors.
Once you have the distinction in your head it's fine. But until then it'd better be enforced on the page.
19:41
Ah @Daminark looks like algebraic geometry is indeed there, so probably will be taking that. I wonder when they put up the graduate classes though.
what is meant by "envelope of the motion" ?
(at the bottom of the picture)
if it's the dashed curve
What's the largest value that the cosine part of the solution can take?
then that seems like the amplitude for me
Hard to call it an amplitude if it's changing.
$e^{-\gamma t}C$
yea okay, instantaneous amplitude?
19:43
Right. That's the largest positive value, at any rate. The largest negative is $-e^{-\gamma t} C$
So the dashed curves are just those two lines.
But yeah, it's basically the instantaneous amplitude.
yea but why are those dashes curves the curves that pass through the extremes of the motions?
and why don't they write $C$ in figure 4.4?
Because those curves are $y=\pm e^{-\gamma t}C$.
As for why they're not in the figure...hrm.
sorry I meant:
why are they not the curves that pass through the extremes
because that what they text seems to say at the bottom
i'll add the other part too
Oh, right.
19:45
Suppose you want to find the max value. For that, you'd differentiate and set that to zero.
So that'd be $y'(t)=-\gamma e^{-\gamma t}C \cos(\omega t+\phi)-\omega e^{-\gamma t}C \sin(\omega t+\phi)=0$
So $\tan(\omega t +\phi) = -\gamma/\omega$.
ohhhh.. wow I wouldn't have seen that myself
In which case, you can write cos/sin using trig stuff.
@Semiclassic: I presume the professor remained incompetent and didn't correct the exam?
19:48
Changed one of the two problems.
Second one is still geometric optics but now is just a refraction problem not a mirror problem.
@Balarka: NOOOOOO ... The man's name was STOKES. You must write either Stokes's or Stokes'.
You and your damned screwed-up apostrophes.
Oh good, @Semiclassic. At least he responded.
First one I still think is really dumb, though, upon looking at it again. It's not just a lens problem but one which deals with radius of curvature of a lens
And that's really specialized.
So I'm still annoyed but I'll have to live with it.
1 out of 20 of the problems being bad is better than 2 out of 20.
Also, as far as I know I'm the only TA who raised a complaint. (But if they replied to him only then I wouldn't know, so that's not without ambiguity.)
@Eric Gleaned some info about who's teaching what next year, didn't ask about algebraic geometry though
19:52
@ShaVuklia Continuing on, from that value of tan we have $\cos(\omega t+\phi) = \pm \omega/\sqrt{\gamma^2+\omega^2}$ depending on whether it's a maximum or a minimum.
Hence the max/min values are $y(t)=e^{-\gamma t}C\cdot \frac{\pm \omega}{\sqrt{\gamma^2+\omega^2}}$
Basically set to die third quarter tho...
If $\omega\gg \gamma$, then this last factor is approximately just $\pm 1$ and you have $e^{-\gamma t}C$ as the maximum.
That's the formal answer. For an intuitive answer, I'm pretty sure that $e^{-\gamma t}C$ intersects $y(t)$ tangentially.
Since each of those tangents is sloped down, $e^{-\gamma t}C$ would therefore not pass through the peak but would rather meet the curve a bit to the right of that.
If you look at that, the yellow line doesn't pass through the peak; rather, it'll have to intersect just below and to the right. That becomes more obvious if I zoom in:

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