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00:00
i have to say, i've always been uncomfortable about resorting to geometry to prove an analytic result. for that reason alone, i think defining sine by its (complex) taylor series is logically the best way to go.
@anon I upvoted the sin+cos²=sqrt(2) one. But you need to lose at least 3 upvotes before it stops counting for Epic.
Weird. Is there a thread about this stuff?
The meta.SO one I just linked to? Or the Mortarboard-Epic-Legendary badge series?
One side-effect of the new rep-system is that you can see when someone has accepted and unaccepted or voted and unvoted an answer.
That was what made me go looking for a post about it and finding that one.
00:08
@N3buchadnezzar why so sad?
Just feeling down
I don't think +15's for accepts count toward rep caps.
School is hard, no friends, being robbed, and my room-mate is doing eilligal things.
Like smoking pot or child porn illegal?
@anon They don't count for capping, but they do count for 200-a-day badges.
00:10
@anon They don't
Oh I thought those badges were for caps, not 200-a-day.
@anon That's why you see some of the high rollers capping with 215, 230, 245, and 260
Yes, I capped with 215 yesterday.
The Epic badge is for 200 a day and accepts and bounties count
@anon Something allong the first lines
@robjohn 200 rep for how many days?
00:13
@anon so did I :-)
@N3buchadnezzar 50
@N3bu: Something you could get in trouble for? I suppose it's guilt by association anyway..
@robjohn IMPOSSIBRU
@anon Not something I would get in trouble for, but he would certainly.
@N3buchadnezzar They don't have to be continuous.
I thought at first they did have to be continuous. I was rather depressed. :P
Now that would be a feat.
00:16
@HenningMakholm I wonder what Arturo's longest streak of 200 days was.
I think David Mitra's rep growth is comparable to Arturo's.
@robjohn I was actually just looking at his profile page
@N3buchadnezzar I am looking at his reputation graph
@anon Well, certainly it is possible to compare them.
Seems like about 20 days at most
00:20
I see 28 days from Jan29-Feb24
@anon David Mitra has only beaten Arturos weekly output once -- a week where Arturos rank dropped to #14; he must have been on vacation. But he's quite frequently #2.
I wonder what the highest daily reputation has been.
Probably quite a lot, due to bounties.
Yeah, I got 593 one day with a 350 bounty and 3 upvotes. I also got a downvote
I just looked at someone with 750
00:25
@N3buchadnezzar what was the bounty?
@robjohn 500
There's 500 bounty possible, add on top of that 4 accepts and a 200 cap...
so 760
oh, less than 200 cap then
00:27
On the day I got the 593, I would have capped if not for the downvote.
Arturo has a 10-accepts day.
@HenningMakholm wow
I think he does a great job, but being so much on htis site. Is something I could not make myself do
@HenningMakholm That's 150 just from accepts, wow
Over at SO, Jon Skeet had 18 accepts on 2009-06-30. Plus a 300 bounty.
And 19 on 2009-04-02, but not as high a bounty.
so around 570 ?
00:32
Well, plus enough upvotes to cap several times over, of course. So 766 -- there was some downvotes that apparently were not offset (which I didn't think was possibly under the new system).
I still think it is impressive to get 700 rep in a single day, just from accepts.
Do you mean just from accepts? That would take 47 accepts!
I'm off to get ready to go to the Griffith Park Observatory tonight. I probably won't be back until 0700 UTC
see y'all later :-)
00:48
Drats. If only algebraic topology wouldn't be so boring... I'm drawn into set theory ideas.
To quote Jim Carrey: Somebody stop me!
If $f:X\to Y$ is a continuous map between topological spaces, and $A$ is a subset of $X$, does it follows that $f(A)$ is in bijective correspondence with $A$?
Huh? Why?
Consider a constant map...
01:04
@AsafKaragila No. But nevermind, question didn't really make sense.
Death: I am unknowing.
01:24
Argh, an accept! Now I'm at 23,452. Someone please upvote (or unupvote) one of my questions, stat!
Thanks, but too late. I reached 23,466 instead. Sigh.
Give it up, catch it the next time at 34,567. Shouldn't take more than a few days ago you to get there. :-P
Well, before that there's 27,182 and 31,415. Not to mention 32,768.
Can someone clear up a bit of confusion I'm having with some basic topology notation?
Well, it's really more than just notation I guess, but I think that's what's really hanging me up.
If $f:X\to Y$ is a continuous map between topological spaces, and $G=\{(x,f(x)):x\in X\}$, if $A\subseteq X$, does it follow that $A\times (f(A))\subset G$?
01:39
This guy... he asked one question upon registration, and today he asked like 14 questions about topology. Some makes no sense, and some - I am certain - are duplicates.
@DavidK Not at all, if $f(a)\neq f(b)$ for $a,b\in A$ then both $(a,f(a))$ and $(a,f(b))$ are in $A\times f(A)$ but $(a,f(b))\notin G$.
@AsafKaragila That's what I thought. I'm trying to show that if $A\times U$ and $A\times f(A)$ are disjoint, then $A\times U$ and $G$ are disjoint. Here, $U\subset Y$.
I know that $(A\times f(A))\cap G\neq\varnothing$, but that's as far as I can get.
Well, $A\times U$ and $A\times f(A)$ disjoint imply that $U\cap f(A)$ is empty. Since $(A\times Y)\cap G=(A\times f(A))\cap G$ the conclusion follows.
Suppose $(a,b)\in A\times U\cap G$ then $b=f(a)\in f(A)$ then $(a,b)\in A\times f(A)$, therefore $(a,b)\notin U$. Contradiction! Huzzah!
@AsafKaragila Got it! (finally. ughh). Thanks! Been looking at this problem for too long!
Yeah... if only I could finish this question...
Then I'll have only two more to solve by morning!
I just have to finish showing that the covering space is indeed the one which corresponds to the subgroup of $\pi_1(Y,y_0)$.
02:08
I will go to sleep now. I foolishly told my contact at the bank that I would come by and sign some papers at 10 AM...
Foolishly indeed.
Mmmm... 4am and I still have a long way ahead of me.
My dad is coming to pick me up in 4 hours to go groceries shopping. Oy vey.
 
1 hour later…
03:31
Okay. Time to do something regrettable later on: Sleep for two hours. When I wake up, I am so going to regret that I got this shuteye...
i'm so sorry
 
4 hours later…
07:09
hi folks
Morning.
Why was this deleted? I saw it last night and was going to answer it now.
07:40
still a little sore about my question math.stackexchange.com/questions/107380/… being closed
i refined it to be quite specific and gave an (IMHO good) answer myself which at least demonstrates that it is answerable in the vague sense. question was answered quite specifically in the comments post-closure, which i might have accepted had it been an actual answer.
i've been pondering it for the last month and i really think it is a neat coincidence. too bad nobody had much chance to chime in.
Was browsing math.stackexchange.com/questions/116981/… and thought of it yet again.
I didn't know we had an experimental-mathematics tag. : )
me neither but i started typing it and it completed :)
figured it was relevant since i had done some experiments and had seen other questions of this sort (often downvoted or closed like my own).
i'm not sure what is the origin of resistance to such questions (which may or may not admit a definite answer)
07:57
I'm not sure.
in this case i think my own answer was definite enough for my own edification, but i would have liked the question to remain open to hear other perspectives.
also @Didier's comments were useful but the question was closed.
If you want to have it reopened you should talk to Asaf, he was one of the people voting to close. Maybe you can have it reopened.
i guess he woke up 150 minutes ago and regretted it
: D
@AsafKaragila ayt?
prods the lifeless shape on the floor that looks like a body
i feel like if a question does not admit a definite answer, then that itself is a good answer. unless perhaps the question is naive.
and we have plenty of $\inf+\inf$ types of questions which remain open and are upvoted because of popular interest.
not a bad thing but what about those like mine that don't speak for all the people?
(and are not naive)
08:07
I don't know. Really. I didn't vote to close your question. And I don't have anything against reopening it. But to understand why it was closed we need to speak to someone who voted to close.
I have to go afk for a while.
nod just trying to explore the general issues
never had a question closed before and i feel like this is one of my better ones
@MattN Hi
hi asaf good morning
08:23
Hi.
Matt N. suggested that you might reconsider the vote to close my question considering my feedback.
also i'm curious about the policy regarding these types of "coincidence" questions: see my recent chat messages
i would edit the question if that would help, but i had already done my best to focus it.
I am sleep deprived and I have to submit an assignment today, which I still did not finish. You should ask me this some other time perhaps.
bad morning asaf :)
under the circumstances...i recommend taking caffeine intravenously
i've been getting good feedback on my work so i'm taking the liberty of staying up late. :)
i won't presume to recommend any drugs.
asaf only got a little sleep, and he's stressed about his assignments, which he detests doing
08:38
i like strong coffee in the morning.
If I had good amphetamines I'd take them.
short attention span?
No, just a crappy assignment.
:( i neglected my last one of those and it is still biting me sometimes
moved on to a better one and i hope they forget about the other.
If I'm not getting a passing grade on this one I'm not gonna get my degree.
08:47
@AsafKaragila And here you are, piddling around on chat!
Yes. Here I am.
You finished the assignment?
Shoot. I need to go and do algebra.
i recommend doing it without the speed (i quit it 10 years ago and never looked back)
health became very important going into my 30s
more important than work etc.
08:52
@DavidWheeler Before I forget: @DavidWheeler I see you've requested admission to the Comm. Alg. room. Are you planning to do Comm. Alg. with us? Or was that just an accident?
and (because of SE mostly) i'm better at math than ever before
Same here : D
@DanBrumleve High five!
anyway plz check out my comments when you feel better.
09:38
@MattN Can you grant me access to the commutative algebra room
Hiya boys.
@BenjaminLim What time is it in Canberra? I have just mailed a guy there :-).
@JonasTeuwen No chance
it's 8.45pm
Oh, so he can mail me back.
but people in australia generally do not answer emails that late in the night
hello @Ben
09:48
hey
@JonasTeuwen Canberra is UTC+10 (8:55 PM)
Sorry, I guess Brisbane doesn't do DST and I looked at the time there, not Canberra :-)
@robjohn I believe only victoria, nsw and the ACT do daylight saving
@BenjaminLim South Aus, and Tasmania, too according to the map
oh sorry yes
10:55
@KannappanSampath I forgot my power adapter and I'm going to the library after this class. So I won't be permanently online.
@MattN Oh, fine. When will you be back?
@KannappanSampath Maybe in 6 or 7 hours from now.
@MattN That is really long. But any way, I'll do those integrals. : (
Yes it sucks. Sorry : /
 
1 hour later…
12:15
Someone remind me, please, if $G$ is a group and $\pi:G\to A$ is a homomorphism into an abelian group then $\ker\pi$ is contained in the commutator subgroup, or does it contain it?
@AsafKaragila commutator subgroup contained in kernel.
If $G/H$ is abelian, then, $H \supseteq [G,G]$
(Check out, Marshall Hall's book on Groups, he does these things so well.)
A TeX question which might be of interest to those TeX tweakers. This is about tweaking the integrals to build what you like out of them.
THIS ROOM LOOKS QUITE DEAD.
Bye folks, if any of you are even looking at this screen. : )
12:32
I LOOK QUITE DEAD.
I am dead.
Did anyone see the TeX question?
@Jonas: Thanks. Are we staff members or students? what do you put there?
@Ilya Are you a bursal PhD or do you get paid by the university?
In the second case you should select "staff" in the first case I don't know but I would pick staff as well :-).
@Jonas: are you kidding (what is bursal, btw?)
Some kind of scholarship.
No, I'm dead serious.
hm... I receive the salary from TU Delft. Does it count to be paid?
@Jonas: btw, how did you realize that you have found Matt?
13:18
@Ilya Yes, then you're staff.
@Ilya What do you mean?
13:36
Google Docs pains me. Takes eternity to load!
14:09
28 views is 12 hours, of which 5 may be mine. But I'm not giving up. I'll be adding stuff until someone answers or I completely run out of ideas.
14:28
Hello everyone
if there is a function f: A -> B, is it correct English to call A the function domain?
@Jonas: here?
@Ilya Correct!
@Jonas: did you write just a title, author and a link/ISBN for a book - or also the motivation why should they buy it?
@Ilya Yes. Everything.
@JonasTeuwen and motivation? like: this is cool book because it is about mathematics?
14:41
No, be creative. What is it about?
Random Dynamical Systems
@Ilya Ah! Find an application for it. That's your motivation! Even better would be if it is an application which could be useful for the TU Delft.
@JonasTeuwen ok, I will write about the biology then. I wonder then, which application did you write :D
@Ilya Hmm, some in harmonic analysis 8-).
:)
14:51
Heya
Anyone mind taking a quick look at a quick problem of mine ? =)
0
Q: Maclaurin expantion $\log\left( \frac{1+x}{1-x}\right)$, show equality of two sums

N3buchadnezzarI am supposed to find the Maclaurin expantion of $ \log\left( \frac{1+x}{1-x} \right) $ So I noticed the obvious that $\log (1-x) - \log(1+x)$ Then Maclaurin polynomial of $\log (1+x)$ so $ \displaystyle P(x) = \sum_{n=0}^{\infty} (-1)^{n+1}\frac{x^n}{n} - \sum_{n=0}^{\infty} (-1)^{n+1}\f...

@N3buchadnezzar take a look on the comments
@Ilya Seems like I made a mistake
Hi Ilya, in order to get this over with :)
Hi all
@Szabolcs I'd rather say "A is the domain of the function f: A \to B"
Hey guys
Hi
15:10
Hiya.
My integrals don't compute fast enough 8-(.
@tb: hi. done
@JonasTeuwen Mine have never computed, so you are a bit optimistic, aren't you?
@JonasTeuwen is it shortened for "Hi, Ilya"?
@JonasTeuwen what do you mean?
15:13
Any more hints for the sum ? =)
@Ilya No.
@Ilya Just: Monte Carlo integration sucks.
@N3buchadnezzar take $(-1)^n$ from $(-x)^n$
@JonasTeuwen Yes! Monte Carlo and all these randomized methods just didn't go far away from Buffon :)
@Ilya Then we obtain $ \displaystyle \left( x^a - (-x)^a \right) / a$
@N3buchadnezzar $(-x)^n = (-1)^n x^n$ isn't it?
@Ilya I'm like: Aha! My plot doesn't look very good. I should pick more points! It becomes worse!
15:16
@JonasTeuwen yeah! that's it - that why I partly develop nice methods to compute staff, with strict bounds on the error
$$ \displaystyle {\frac { \left( -1 \right) ^{a+1} \left( 1- \left( -1 \right) ^{a}
\right) {x}^{a}}{a}}
$$ ?
man,
$$
\sum(-1)^{n+1}\frac{(-x)^n}{n} = \sum\limits (-1)^{2n+1}\frac{x^n}{n}
$$
I cast the rendering spell
and $(-1)^{2n+1} = -1$
I cast it again
@Ilya Do you have a fast 2D integration method for me laying around somewhere?
15:20
@JonasTeuwen which sort of functions?
@Ilya A very ugly one.
hm... is it smooth at least? like C^2
@Jonas: ?
@Ilya Yes!
@Ilya Trapezoidal is very slow.
@JonasTeuwen ah, that's the point. Over which set do you integrate?
@Ilya A part of a sphere.
15:30
@JonasTeuwen maybe you can use Chebyshev polynomials then
@Ilya Hmm, can you explain more? :-).
Wow, my office mate computed on almost completely by hand! 8-).
With all kinds of weird special functions.
Did anyone see that TeX question?
3 hours ago, by Kannappan Sampath
A TeX question which might be of interest to those TeX tweakers. This is about tweaking the integrals to build what you like out of them.
@KannappanSampath The answer there looks pretty good.
@DylanMoreland That's a very cute answer. Know TeX? Then, you know what great typography is! Amazing answer and neat display!
15:50
@JonasTeuwen cool. Sorry, the student came - I have office hours now. So, you've done with your integral? The function appeared not to be so ugly :) in that case Mathematica would help, it does symbolic computations quite nicely and it know lots of weird special functions
Hi Kannappan. Very cool question that.
@Ilya But it does not know this one!
You've got +1 from me.
@KannappanSampath Heya
Mind helping me with a double integral? =(
@JonasTeuwen I see :)
16:03
Ahhh, fine integrals :-).
Ello.
Just a quick ello before I run out of battery.
Ello Matt.
: )
I think there is a mistake in the lecture notes. When they define free $R$-module they say "Let $S$ be any set. Then the free $R$-module generated by $S$ is $F(S) := \oplus_{s \in S} R \cdot s$.
To me it looks as if $S$ should be a subset of $R$.
There's an option you charge your laptop battery by plugging it into a wall socket.
Correct. But I had to run this morning so I forgot the power adapter.
It's not looking good. 5 minutes more.
(^in particular, $S$ should be a linearly independent subset of $R$!)
I have to go now. See you later.
16:18
@MattN Yes, that's the time the light keep blinking and I'd rather turn it off.
@MattN Why should $S$ be a subset of $R$? $S$ is the basis. When you have a basis of a vector space over a field, the basis is not a subset of that field.
16:33
@MattN Nope, it need not be a subset of $R$.
You can think about it as finite formal sums over indices from $S$ and coefficients from $R$.
Formal sums or simply functions from $S$ to $R$ which give non-zero values for only finitely many arguments (have finite supports).
@ymar Um, yes, that's what "formal sum" means.
@HenningMakholm Yes, but I was not sure Matt knew that.
He left, anyway.
16:43
I could not follow that question at all.
Dylan, some algebra:
Suppose I have $h:G\to H$ which is an epimorphism from $G$ onto an abelian group $H$. Does that imply that $H\cong[G,G]$?
By the universal property of $[G,G]$ there exists $\bar h$ such that $h=\bar h\circ\pi$ (where $\pi$ the canonical quotient onto $G/[G,G]$).
Since $h$ is surjective this means that $\bar h$ is surjective... so...?
@Dylan: ping.
I don't see how you'd get that conclusion.
What conclusion?
That $H \cong [G, G]$.
If $H$ is free abelian?
16:51
For example, I have a surjection $S_n \to \{\pm1\}$ given by the sign of a permutation. The kernel is the commutator subgroup $A_n$.
@DylanMoreland Yes... and
Well, $A_n \cong \{\pm1\}$ is not often true. But you've added an assumption. Let me think.
Oh lord, let this nightmare be over already.
You must mean to say something else. Even the identity $\mathbf Z \to \mathbf Z$ messes up the new statement.
@AsafKaragila take $\mathbb{Z} \to \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$.
16:54
Why do you want this to be true?
I just have to finish this question on the Hurewicz homomorphism, and show that the fundamental group of a covering space is what I want it to be to finish another question.
Fine, I'll just show that commutator thing by hand.
@DylanMoreland Wishful thinking to avoid more bookkeeping.
@tb Well the commutator is trivial and the kernel of this map has only countably many elements. By taking a quotient of the universe by the countable sets $\sigma$-(class)-ideal we yield that my claim is true. Huzzah. :|
i was going to say that if h is epi (H abelian) you know that ker(h) contains [G,G]
the commutators are what you have to set = 1 to get abelian, anything "bigger" modded out will make abelian, too
so if all commutators are in ker(h), H is abelian
apparently MattN left....me and my crazy schedule
17:23
@Asaf Did you get the message about commutator?
Yes. I need to show the inclusion in the other direction.
Why should we have that inclusion without any other hypothesis?
Oh, there are other hypotheses. I am just so tired that I cannot get myself to write them both in my solution AND here.
@AsafKaragila well, write it only there and I thought the assignment was due today!
Hello my peeps :-)
17:31
Hi!
Hi, robjohn
I just went to get some food, now I'm back and the whole floor is empty...
@KannappanSampath I have like three more hours.
'Ello @robjohn & @tb.
'ello, Gigili
17:32
How do you do @tb?
@tb allo :-)
@AsafKaragila Good luck. Don't get disturbed! : )
@KannappanSampath I am disturbed. Very disturbed.
@robjohn I think you'll enjoy the TeX question.
@Asaf how goes the room management?
17:33
2 hours ago, by Kannappan Sampath
3 hours ago, by Kannappan Sampath
A TeX question which might be of interest to those TeX tweakers. This is about tweaking the integrals to build what you like out of them.
@robjohn ^^
@robjohn B.Room management? I pin quotes from Bergman movies.
"TeX tweaking" sounds like a drug addiction.
@DylanMoreland hey, dude, I need a \fix
he was TeX tweaking but i gave him some ASCII to mellow him out
@AsafKaragila still waiting for this big sigh of relief that will go around the world when people in this chat room read from you: "I just handed in the algebraic topology homework"
17:36
B.room management is a curve that does not intersect my brain ! : )
@tb Ahhhh...
@tb Haha. :-)
Can you perhaps help me distill something from Spanier? I need to finish the proof that every subgroup of the fundamental group is a fundamental group of a covering space.
Hi @tb, long time no see.
17:39
I have defined the obvious covering space by homotopy equivalence classes mod the concatenation (+inverse) being in the subgroup. I have the obvious topology by pulling up the topology from the space. I just need to show that last part - the fundamental group of what I have defined is the needed subgroup.
@HenningMakholm Hi, Henning, indeed. We had disjoint times of appearance in this chat room. It's going to improve in the near future, though... How are you doing?
@tb Doing well. Actually getting work done at work, while managing to answer some questions here on the side.
@AsafKaragila well, can't you go a step further and say you go to the universal covering. The subgroup of the fundamental group acts on the universal covering space (by deck transformations -- or by concatenation of paths) and what you have defined is a simply connected space modulo the action of the subgroup of the fundamental group...
@HenningMakholm well, then you're doing way better than me. I don't manage to get any questions on the site answered recently...
@tb We didn't talk that much on the action of the subgroup and I am far far too late to start building the theory on my own into the assignment.
@AsafKaragila well, you're making it a bit difficult for me, what are you supposed to use and what are you supposed not to use?
(and what specifically in Spanier do you want me to extract?)
17:52
@tb Oh, and I finally won that Epic badge I'd been vying for. Been taking it a bit more slowly since then.
i always thought it went like this: universal cover<-->trivial fundamental group, cover(quotient of universal cover)<--->subgroup of $\pi_1(X)$, X<--->full fundamental group
@HenningMakholm congratulations! I'm still not there and I don't expect to get it anytime soon. I'd need about a dozen more cap days...
Hi N3
@tb Well, I know that given a loop in the subgroup I can find a path in the covering space whose projection gives me the loop. So now I need to show that if I have a path in the cover it projects to a loop in the subgroup.
17:54
provided X is "nice enough"
@DavidWheeler this sounds right.
I have a serious lapse of understanding the way tagged partitions work. Can someone tell me how to use these animals and find a bound for $S(f,\dot P)$ in case of functions.
@tb You may be able to help me here.
@AsafKaragila well, yes, but think about it this way: the universal covering space can be constructed as homotopy classes (with fixed end points) of paths $\gamma: [0,1] \to X$ from x_0 to x, the covering projection being given by $[\gamma] \mapsto [\gamma](1)$. The (subgroup of the) fundamental group is given by homotopy classes of loops $[\ell]$ based at $x_0$ and the action is given by concatenating $[\gamma] \mapsto [\gamma] \ast [\ell]$.

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