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19:00
Also, I started a thread about this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2255132/…
@Waiting Hi, I missed your message, but I'm doing fine! Just had my family come over, which was really nice. How are you doing?
@AlessandroCodenotti You were supposed to be tagged, too. Apparently Ted told you about this problem.
Hey @Sha! And sorry @Balarka
I believe the answer to your question is yes, after fiddling with some "typical" counterexamples and finite spaces, but I have no rigorous proof @user193319
Is it easy to show that whenever $\langle v,w\rangle_1=0$, we have that $\langle v,w\rangle_2=0$? Where $\langle{.,.}\rangle_1$ is an inner product, and $\langle{.,.}\rangle_2$ also.
19:07
Of course I could just be wrong, I often am :P
@AlessandroCodenotti Oh, very interesting! What were some of the "typical" counterexamples you checked? I'll have to continue thinking about this. If you do light upon a rigorous proof, I encourage you post it on the thread I started.
@user193319 infinite broom, the topologist sine curve, $[0,1]^2$ with the dictionary order topology, the comb space, those are the usual spaces used as sources of counterexamples about connectedness
Maybe I could use that since norms are equivalent, we also have that norms induced by inner products are equivalent, and therefore the second inner product must be zero iff the first inner product is zero
Comment ça va @user1952009 ?
@Sha are you speaking over a specific set or generally?
19:09
@ShaVuklia that's not easy, it's false :P
Oh right, well I wanted to use it here:
here i'm using the standard inner product
to show how i can make the vectors independent
So I thought, if it holds for the standard inner product (that the vectors are independent), then the vectors are independent for any inner product
but maybe I should work with the standard inner product anyways when working with matrices (and vectors)
and only worry about other inner product when we are dealing with a different vector space
for example consider $\langle (a,b),(c,d)\rangle=(3a+b)c+d(a+2b)$, if I didn't mess up that should be an inner product wrt to which the standard basis of $\Bbb R^2$ is not orthogonal
Orthogonality is defined in terms of an inner product @sha
oh yea, another counter example could be the inner product for the space of functions. it makes sense that if you change the limits of integrations, some inner product will yield zero for two functions, while another won't
somehow I assumed that orthogonality is preserved under different inner products, but apparently that's false
In general if $V$ is a finite dimensional vector space and $A$ is a symmetric, positive definite bilinear form then $\langle x,y \rangle=x^tAy$ is an inner product
ah yea, I've seen an exercise like that last week
okay, yea, it is really absolutely false, I see now :P
19:19
what I did earlier was to pick $A=\begin{pmatrix} 3 & 1\\ 1 & 2\end{pmatrix}$
ohh!
thanks for explaining, because I had no idea how you came up with the formula :P
is it also necessary that the eigenvalues are nonnegative?
yes, that's the "positive definite" part
So "positive definite" means that a matrix has positive eigenvalues?
oh never mind!
googled it :P
yes
one usually calls a symmetric matrix positive definite if $x^tAx>0$ for all nonzero $x$, but this is equivalent to the eigenvalues being positive
19:27
hi @Jing
Anyone find sometimes unmotivating to do math homework? Compared to chosing math problems that you find imortant?
Zee
Zee
You gotta feed the cows before you cut the steak
@ze
I dont get that metaphor.
i think it means you have to do some work first, before it pays off?
Zee
Zee
Yes
19:30
So how do you motivate yourself to study things that you don't find interesting then?
Zee
Zee
Well , if you find all of it not intestine thend that's a problem
@user193319 Actually I had thought of the counterexample they suggested in the example, but failed to realize that this space $X$ is connected, woops
Zee
Zee
Practise is not supposed to be pleasurable
Math is pain
@AlessandroCodenotti The example by barto? I just noticed it!
@ShaVuklia hehe, you had a good time there. Well, not that bad here, bits involved in some kind of research.
19:32
@Zee
yes @user193319
Do any of you schedule?
Zee
Zee
Ya 4 hours a day
@zee whos that mathematician who also said he studies 4 hours a day?
poincare?
Zee
Zee
Poincare
And Dirac actually
Hardy too
19:35
But I'm talking about school.
Don you schedule time for schoolwork?
Zee
Zee
Don't math HW and research are not that different
Doing *
I thought math HW and research were different. Usually research problems are way longer.
Zee
Zee
Does not mean the way you approach them is different
@Waiting it's good to be busy:)
Anyone enjoy discrete mathematics enough to want to add in on a problem I've got?
19:38
@Owatch just ask! usually people help, if they can
Zee
Zee
Discrete math should be illegal
@Zee Fight me to the death
Not now because I'm still in pain but when I recover
Zee
Zee
Be careful what you wish for
Hello all :)
I've been tasked with showing that all strings composed of alphabet $\{a,b\}$ in which the number of $a$ = number of $b$ is a subset of a language defined as: Base $\{\epsilon\}$ and Step: for any string $xy \in \Sigma^{}$, that $axby$ and $bxay$ are $\in \Sigma^{}$. For the record, I really, really, despise discrete mathematics.
Zee
Zee
19:41
BTW @Daminark did you slip due to me?
Nah that was a different fight to the death
Zee
Zee
@Owatch you would probably also wanna ask this in computer science room
I might have been injured but my opponent won't be saying insert some heathen statement here
@Shaun Hey!
Hi @Daminark. How are you?
@ShaVuklia Yesss! You're so right! Doing math is one of the best ways to stay busy, but not the only one ... :P
19:44
And @Owatch we also must fight at some point
Since my latex got posted all jumbled, I don't even want to continue.
@Shaun I'm alright, you?
Zee
Zee
I don't wanna go to work :( I wanna do math
Suppose that I have a topological space whose Borel $\sigma$-algebra admits a minimal generating set, does this necessarily translate into a minimal basis for $\tau$? I don't think so
@Zee Is it like, a side job during college? Or are you out of college and doing math on your own time or something?
19:47
@Daminark I'm alright. I've just asked a question here.
Zee
Zee
I think so @AlessandroCodenotti
It took me a while to type it up on my phone.
Zee
Zee
@Daminark it's a long story but am out of school
Semigroup theory, that's interesting, I was not aware that this was often studied @Shaun
Ah @Zee
19:50
Hey @Meow!
Zee
Zee
Bye @Daminark
@Zee Is this a gut feeling or do you have an idea for a proof?
hi Zach how are you?
Tired, headache-y.
How about you.
How does one show that a set of elements defined by a property is a subset of a set defined by a base and recursive step?
prove that after a recursive step, that property is preserved
and then prove the first base as following that property
then you can apply an induction kind of argument. the second recursive element would satisfy it because the first does, the third would because the second, and so on
19:53
@Waiting True! It is one of the best ways:P Do you ever write/read poems?
@Daminark They study it at Manchester, York, St Andrews, etc., all at research level.
@ShaVuklia Letting apart my mathematical problems which I also consider them poems (to some extent), yeah, I do write/read poems. Not that much lately since I'm pretty involved in stuff that requires a lot of time. How about you? Do you write/read poems? :-)
@MeowMix Given that $xy$ is in set #2 if $axby$ and $bxay$ are, I showed that for all elements of set #1 defined as: #a = #b, reducing both $axby$ and $bxay$ to $xy$ retained the property that #a = #b. I did this for both the arbitrary $xy$ string, and the null string (for the base case). While I thought this was okay, I am told that I am proving that #a = #b for any string in set #2.
And that that is not the same, thus not correct.
20:10
Haha, that's really nice (math<=>poetry) - I'd almost forgotten! I also don't write/read poems that often, especially because I don't feel that much, but I managed to put this "nothingness" into words, giving it some recognition, I think.
But maybe I shouldn't bring up this subject in a math chat! @Waiting
Oh see you @Zee!
@Zach Fell down some stairs, at the time I was hearing a buzzing but now it's just some pain
Oh, how did that happen?
So I've got one class (audit) which was going on until 1:20 (though someone was subbing in and I had no clue what he was saying so I probably should've sat it out), then I had to go quite some distance to get to the next class, so I tripped on the stairs
@Shaun That's neat btw!
Hey guys - got a quick question: Consider a function f, where $f(x^*) = 0$ as the minimizer. The update steps is $x^{k+1} = x^k - \alpha f(x^k)$. An algorithm is globally monotone if $||x^{k+1} - x^*|| \leq ||x^k - x^*||$
If you were given that the function f is $f(x) = Ax + b$, and you're given the eigenvalues of $A$ and the vector $b$, how can you find an $\alpha$ such that it's globally monotone for all k in the sequence?
I think I'm a little stuck when I found the eigenvalues, found them to be positive definite. I wanted to say something along the lines of the $Ax$ portion could be decomposed into eigenvalue multiply by x, and since $f(x^{k+1}) \leq f(x^k)$ we have that it's globally monotone
but even then I can't say for sure that because $|f(x^{k+1})| \leq |f(x^k)|$, that $||x^{k+1} - x^*|| \leq ||x^k - x^*||$
You're better off asking that on the main site, @OneRaynyDay
20:19
Mmm yeah fair! I wasn't sure if this was trivial and I'm missing the last step so I didn't want to embarrass myself in the main site
@ShaVuklia Don't worry about it, almost everything is related to math, more or less, in a way or other, there is some math around even if sometimes this is not that obvious. Eventually I never ever heard poems hurt people ... :-)
Is math present in LOVE? Who knows?
We need more poetry which hurts people physically.
That's the kind of thing I'd like to see.
@BalarkaSen Lol
20:21
Carve your poem into a rock heavy and throw it at people
6
They're called tattoos, @BalarkaSen
Yo @daminark did you ever apply to the summer school in analysis
Demonark: Did you go to health center?
could anyone explain how to solve for the eigenvectors in a differential equation where the roots of the characteristic equation are complex?
Solve for the eigenvectors as complex vectors, @SidG, then do real and imaginary parts at the very end of everything.
20:29
oh, didn't think it would be that simple, thanks!
It actually seems more interesting the more I think about it. Maybe there can be something in the verse of the poetry, and the word-game (but not the content!), which would be physically repulsing, disorienting and nauseating to me.
You'll have complex stuff in the exponentials, too, @SidG. So that's why I said at the end of everything.
Got it- I'm guessing that expands out into trig too
Regular exponential plus trig, yes.
In a similar way this makes me sick, say.
20:32
Hi Ted
Hi Zach
Did you have your surgery?
Read J.P. Sartre's Nausea, @Balarka. :)
Yes, Zach, yesterday morning.
How did it go?
Fine. Still have some pain and have to be careful about what I eat.
20:33
@TedShifrin Very interesting! Let me look that up.
I have it in French, @Balarka.
Salut @Astyx
Bye. Sorry, I must go...
Hi chat
Bye, Zach
Salut ted
Bye zach
How's life ?
20:36
nothing too exciting ... you?
Getting fed up with the concours
@Ted Downloaded.
Happily I only have one more day before the one week break
It goes on my to-read list/folder.
Cool, Balarka. I spent a lot of time reading Camus and Sartre when I was around your age.
Maybe they're better in French, though.
Yeah, months of just exams sounds just so ... épatant, @Astyx.
20:39
My father's a big fan of Camus. I haven't read anything by him.
Oh, The Stranger is the classic, @Balarka. Also, The Fall, Myth of Sisyphus.
I love Camus and Sartre
Noted.
So you ponder whether you exist, @Astyx? :D
20:40
And the auto correction on my phone also ...
I like existential literature; Dostoyevsky has been and always will be one of my favorites. I guess I have switched to rather bizarre things over the course of days.
Yeah, I think there's something about existential angst and teenage years :P
Exams get really tiring, especially since you get up to 3 topics per day. I had a monstrous headache at the end today ><
(By bizarre I meant surreal things. It just seems like classical reality isn't enough to describe some stuff.)
@Ted You'd know, of course, you're older than us all :)
Indeed, I'm infinitely old.
20:42
It's funny how Camus and Sartre are so different yet so similar
@Astyx: I've had weeks here and there of final exams, but this seems unending.
God I hate the kleene star.
hi Owatch
And I'm not even taking CCP and E3a (which would add two other weeks)
Hi.
20:44
Gesundheit, Astyx.
Hmm, now that I try to recall I think Murakami's novels are valid examples of things reading which I actually felt sick, without any apparent reason. The surrealistic setup is too disorienting.
You're mixing up languages Ted
:p
(I am mostly thinking of 1Q84 when I say this)
I did it on porpoise, Astyx.
I know not of what you speak, Balarka.
@TedShifrin I'm infinitely young
20:47
Sure you did ..
@Ted Murakami is a rather recent postmodern novelist, so it's certainly conceivable you don't know him.
It's not conceivable; it's definite.
Gotcha.
Alright I gotta go sleep now (need to wake up early :( )
Good day everyone
Bonne nuit, @Astyx.
20:53
Rehi @Ted
rehi @Alessandro
did you see my message earlier?
@TedShifrin I learnt the Poincare-Bendixson theorem a few days ago.
Which one, @Alessandro?
Cool, @Balarka.
20:55
Oh. No. I didn't bookmark it. I just found it by googling (although I'd known of its existence beforehand).
Did you try?
yeah, didn't find it though
Look on the Wiki page for counterex in topology
actually I thought about 2 counterexamples to the other user's question but didn't recognize them as such... he posted on main and got an answer there though
oh, cool ... I didn't really think much about it
Hey everyone, back!
21:04
you alive?
@Ted Yeah I'm alive, the pain has mostly subsided. I went to Student Health Services, scheduled an appointment for Saturday, they said that if I do ever feel a recurrence of the ear buzzing, or other symptoms of head trauma, to go for emergency care
Can anybody factorize this? 8x^3+12x^2-6x-1
Sat ... oh great
Dont use Latex, Please normal typing..?
Beyond that, it doesn't seem like I have a concussion, it was probably just the immediate shock, since it lasted for under a minute, so that will be mostly for the fall pain.
21:07
I hope you're fine, Demonark — as fine as you ever are.
What happened?
Can anybody factorize it, please? 8x^3+12x^2-6x-1
@Eric I did not apply for summer school, I would have to supplement a lot of material on differential equations and all to be able to follow anything, which I don't anticipate doing
@Balarka Fell down, landed somewhat hard on my backside. At the time my hearing went funny for a second and I heard a beep/buzz
@Ted Thanks, I think I'm alright. Enough to make my great puns at least
your puns are great like the orange cheeto is great.
Yikes. Good to know you're alright.
Not that great, @Ted.
21:10
@Ted I didn't know you were a Republican!
:P
orange cheeto is, like, epic.
@AnimeshAshish 8/8 + 12/4 - 6/2 - 1 = 0. I'll let you do the rest yourself
Ah ok @daminark, I just mentioned cause acceptances came out
Ah, did you get it?
Yeah
21:12
(Your use of the phrasing "acceptances came out" suggests yes but :P)
Ah, nice!
I mean I know all the organizers lol
That's like, fair
"Now to apply the 3 tape recorder analogy to this simple operation. Tape recorder 1 is the Moka Bar itself it is pristine condition. Tape recorder 2 is my recordings of the Moka Bar vicinity. These recordings are access. Tape recorder 2 in the Garden of Eden was Eve made from Adam. So a recording made from the Moka Bar is a piece of the Moka Bar...
...The recording once made, this piece becomes autonomous and out of their control. Tape recorder 3 is playback. Adam experiences shame when his discraceful behavior is played back to him by tape recorder 3 which is God. By playing back my recordings to the Moka Bar when I want and with any changes I wish to make in the recordings, I become God for this local. I effect them. They cannot effect me." - William S. Burroughs.
O_o
There's a mini course on geometric measure theory that I'm excited about @daminark
But yeah I'll just roll with our mini reading group in the meantime
Oh nice
Lol looking at it that might've been something I could've understood maybe ish
What I was worried about more was the PDE game stuff, kinetic theory, flow
@Balarka This is... interesting
21:20
@Daminark original article from which I found the paragraph
The things im excited about about are kinetic theory and gmt... I guess also the flow one
The first week basically
But really it's hard to follow more than one
more like geometric nerd theory
3
@Mike I lol'd
Lmao @Mike
21:23
just with measurable nerds
nonmeasurable nerds are a different game
tfw a nerd can't be squeezed between an $F_{\sigma}$ nerd and a $G_{\delta}$ nerd within measure zero
21:43
zzzz
Hey Mike!
If I have a matrix representation of an algebra, where matrices A, B, C generate a finite basis (AB, BA, ABC, CAB, etc), and you make a create some general element of that matrix representation, say M = 2AC+4CB+9ABC for example, then you've got this matrix M whose entries are linear combinations of that basis. What's the process called of pulling out those coefficients 2, 4, 9, 0, 0, 0, ... ?
Isn't that just factorization
or decomposition
I was wondering earlier if it wasn't decomposition, then I was trying to figure out if that's the case, what kind of decomposition is it? Maybe the kind of decomposition depends specifically on the matrix representation
see cause on wikipedia it says "decomposition, or matrix factorization is a factorization of a matrix into a product of matrices", but this is a linear combination of matrices. so it strikes me that this is just an issue of doing linear algebra except the vectors are linear combinations of matrices

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