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19:00
@Daminark idk I think there are few things more concrete than the tangent bundle. I think Schlag has a penchant for trying to get students to understand things the way a 19th century mathematician would, and I don't fully understand why he does this
@Ted I'll take a look
@Eric: The tautological bundles to which I refer really are more concrete than a general tangent bundle.
Not that I don't love tangent bundles, normal bundles, cotangent bundles, conormal bundles, etc., etc. ...
what is a tautological bundle exactly?
"Although it is widely reported that the title refers to the sound of urine tinkling in a chamber pot, this is a later Joycean embellishment ..." - referring to Joyce's "Chamber Music"
O_o
My knowledge of bundles pretty much caps out at "a family of manifolds parametrized by another manifold."
Which I know is not really right.
Right now it registers for me as gluing a bunch of vector spaces at each point of a manifold and getting another one
19:05
I suspect I've got some intuition baked in from physics, e.g. tangent bundles in Lagrangian mechanics and cotangent bundles in Hamiltonian mechanics.
@Eric: $\Bbb P^n$ is the space of lines through the origin. The tautological line bundle on it is the bundle whose fiber at $\ell$ is precisely the $1$-dimensional subspace of $\Bbb R^{n+1}$ that $\ell$ is. Hence tautology.
For one, classical mechanics really does enforce a distinction between momentum and velocity.
I have no clue if that's at all a good/correct way to think about it but from that one time when my physics TA did vector bundles (which was rather abstract), that's the vibe I got
There are analogous things for Grassmannians. These are the building blocks for projective geometry, too, @Eric.
The difficulty is that said intuition doesn't generalize in the ways that it needs to.
I mainly have uses of bundles etc. in quantum mechanics in mind.
e.g. the evolution of a wavefunction in a Hilbert space as some kind of Hermitean line bundle? I'm sure it's straightforward once one writes it out, but hearing it my brain just deflates a bit.
19:08
Ah ok I see, so for the Grasmannian $G(k, n)$ it would be a bundle whose fiber $\ell$ is the $k$-plane $\ell$
the name tautological is pretty good
@Daminark in my head I usually think "place where vector fields live".
Right, @Eric, although I would call the subspace $\Lambda$ or $\xi$ instead of $\ell$ :D
So if you think about Gauss mappings to spheres, projective spaces, or (for non-hypersufaces) to Grassmannians, you can see that the tautological bundles pull back to the tangent bundle.
right, it's not a line anymore lol
This gives a very natural and elegant proof of Gauss-Bonnet (see the end of my notes I sent you).
I think what I'm saying amounts to the following, though I'm never sure.
oh, hi, @Semiclassic
19:13
hi @ted
oh wow that's great
@Ted you have good sense for notation, mine tends to be insanely scattered
And @Eric makes sense
@Semiclassic: Chern gave a number of lectures in which he talked about different constructs in physics as circle bundles. :)
huh, neat.
I can believe it.
I think Gauss-Bonnet is my favorite formula
it's a good one
19:15
It's great, and moving frames is without a moment's hesitation the right proof.
Anyhow, I did enough characteristic class and Schubert cycle stuff (Grassmannians) at the end of my course to prove the higher-dimensional version.
The 2-dimensional proof is early in the course.
anyhow. Suppose I've got some operator $A_R$ with a particular eigenvector $v_R$, where $R$ is some coordinate in a parameter space.
right when I did the bootcamp thing last summer I lectured both on the moving frames proof and the normal proof and seeing Gauss-Bonnet just fall out was the moment I was like "whoa this is more than just a change in notation"
In general I'll have more than one eigenvector, but I'll keep my eye on one in particular.
Yup, and Chern's generalization was based on the generalization of the moving frames stuff to the sphere bundle of a general Riemannian $2n$-manifold.
The idea being: As I change the parameter, I should smoothly change how the eigenvector is d efined.
19:17
So maybe you should be tracking the smoothly varying eigenvector by mapping to an appropriate projective space, @Semiclassic.
Just to tie in what you're saying to what Eric and I are mumbling about.
Yeah, probably better to think of the ray in Hilbert space.
I get the impression that whenever Chern's name pops up deep ideas follow
Anyhow. Where this becomes neat is when you consider orbits in the parameter space.
The most obvious guess for what happens is that you should recover your original eigenvector.
@Eric: Most often, yup.
But evidently there are cases where doing that doesn't give back the original eigenvector. Which I guess is kinda like doing parallel transport on a sphere and not ending up with the same vector you start with.
So something something curvature.
This is where my understanding caps out, alas.
19:22
Yup, curvature is the (local) manifestation of nontrivial holonomy.
Yeah.
That's what Berry curvature is, as I understand it.
You mumbled that to me ages ago, but I didn't follow up on it.
heya Zach
I thought of an interesting problem while almost napping in science.
19:23
Almost napping in class is not cool.
I would throw chalk at you if you did that to me.
I woke up late
and we were watching Bill Nye
There's a complication, unfortunately, in that one would imagine this parameter changes happening in actual time
Hi Zach
At least you have a teacher who doesn't deny science :P
19:23
Yeah... really.
And time evolution of wave functions is subject to the Schrodinger equation.
So in order for this to work out one either has to make things more complicated or change the system parameters slowly enough that it doesn't matter.
He's a devout Christian, so it's nice to see that at least some religious people accept scientific theories
or fact, for that matter.
Most religious people do I think
It's just you mostly hear about the ones who don't
That's a mine-field that's probably best avoided.
Anyways, my problem...
You have three concentric circles (same center)
one has radius 1, the otherr radius 2, the last radius 3
19:25
OK
What is the maximum area you can create with a triangle such that one point is on each circle
Oh, that's a good question.
Can you prove to me first that there has to be a maximum?
Interresting
umm
Hmm...
How do I prove the existence of maxima... thinks
@Ted Is your question why it has to be bounded? Or why does it have to be an /achieved/ maximum, in contrast to a sup?
19:28
The latter, Demonark.
You will get there eventually in my book, Zach :P
Well both are true anyway :p
But the wise guys in here should know it immediately.
compact
Yup @Astyx.
well
the thing is
The set is like
"finite"
19:29
It's a cool question, Zach. Very cool. I have a conjecture, but I don't have a proof yet that I'm right.
like, $[0,2\pi)^2$ (assuming WLOG the first point is fixed)
what is the question
Better to write $[0,2\pi]$. Do you know the maximum value theorem from single-variable calculus?
@Balarka: Take points on three concentric circles (one on each). What's the way to get a triangle of maximum area?
Yeah... Isn't it like, if you have a function continuous on a compact set there's a maximum?
Exactly
19:30
Which is equivalent to bounded and closed by that weird theorem I forgot the name of.
You need it to be an equilateral triangle. I am certain I have done this before.
Heine-Borel
You got to play with properties of triangles.
I don't agree with you, @Balarka.
19:31
@BalarkaSen It's three concentric circles
Getting an equilateral triangle is probably very hard ?
At least, a priori I don't.
Use the isoperimetric inequality! (jk I don't understand that all too well so I don't know if it helps at all)
Oh, I misread. I thought you were taking three points from a circle.
glares at Balarka for sloppy reading skills
19:32
I can't read.
Then use a text-to-speech thing
That's unfortunate
0
Q: solving a split right spherical triangle

fluffy_muffinHow would I go about solving a spherical (right) triangle in the ambigous case? I am given two adjacent side lengths and the angle between them which is right as follows: B /|\ / | \ / | \ / | \ / | ...

I'm going to have lunch, so I'll be back later.
i can write tho
19:32
See you @Ted!
Bon appétit
Ok that's certainly a harder question I don't plan to think about.
@Daminark the isoperimetric inequality is like... very hard
Oh I know, I saw Isaac's thing in math club and wasn't really following well
That was a joke
Is it? It can be proved from some Fourier theory.
19:35
the planar isoperimetric inequality is not that hard
I guess the C^0 case is.
Ah, yes. That's what I was thinking.
the fourier proof is very cute, I like it a lot
I learnt it from Ted
in higher dimensions the way i first learned is some existence + regularity results and then a symmetrization argument
there's also Brunn-Minkowski
both ways are kind of difficult
Hi Nate
Long time no see, in dog years
Wait, that's backwards
19:41
rip
How does the Fourier proof go?
I wrote it down somewhere in here, let me find it
There are actually a few fourier proofs
mine uses Parseval's identity
it's of course infinitely tricky (eg I would never have thought about the $\|\gamma'(s)\| = \|\gamma'(s)\|^2$ trick)
I see I am being picked on by Mike for talking nonsense. Don't scroll down!!
19:45
there's a proof using Wirtinger's inequality that i love @Daminark
I could show you some time if you are ever in the barn when I am
also symmetrization is great
Awesome, thanks!
Well, in the meantime, I've got to head over to sosc, so see you guys around!
how are you dami
20:15
ugh. sometimes, trying to keep myself on task grading is like trying to hold a door closed in a windstorm.
the anxiety just knots me up.
no idea what minkowski content is now
I frequently learn new things from my old answers
:P
I personally learn from literally all of your answers
Here's something a little silly.
I'm looking at one of my student's reports, and they say that the predicted vs. experimental value was 8.81 vs. 7.42.
That's not a great agreement, and they say so. They go on to give a decent reasoning for why the latter could be off by a certain amount---say, 1. (they'd measured 1 for something, so that's not pulled out of nowhere)
But then, when they want to use this to update the experimental value, they subtract it to get 6.4 :/
So they actually made it worse by including that.
20:56
Prove or disprove that there exists a sequence of moves independent of the state of the Rubik's cube you can make that eventually solves all starting positions
It's false---there's a certain feature of the cube which the moves can't change---but I entirely forget how it's shown.
interesting?
It's discussed in the Wiki article for the cube: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubik%27s_Cube#Permutations
@Secret It should be this:
$\psi_0(k+1)=\sup\{\psi_0(k), \psi_0(k)^{\psi_0(k)}, \psi_0(k)^{\psi_0(k)^{\psi_0(k)}}, \dots\}$
twelve different orbits, more precisely
21:01
@Semiclassical thanks!
"...there is no sequence of moves that will swap a single pair of pieces or rotate a single corner or edge cube. Thus there are twelve possible sets of reachable configurations, sometimes called "universes" or "orbits", into which the Cube can be placed by dismantling and reassembling it."
Oh, no, I didn't mean you could take it apart and reassemble, the cube must be solvable to begin with @Semiclassical
That's what it's getting at.
I meant this:
Though the wording there is...strange.
21:04
Does there exist a sequence of moves independent of the state of the Rubik's cube that will eventually solve any solvable starting state?
No.
That's what it's saying.
Hi, I have a question: If I have a Markov Chain A -> B -> C -> D, what can I say about p(a, c, d)? Or even p(c|a,d)?
I agree that the wording of that last line is weird, but the rest of the paragraph makes it obvious.
Particularly since it explicitly says that, if you were to disassemble the cube and reassemble it randomly, there'd be a 1/12 chance of it being solvable.
You might also appreciate this page on the group structure of the Rubik's cube: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubik%27s_Cube_group
I think you guys are talking past each other and looking at different questions. I think by any state Simply means one the solvable state (that is you scrambled a standard rubics cube by moves)
21:08
Oh.
Yeah, I misunderstood that.
Although yours is more interesting
Eh, I think his is more interesting actually :P
Is there a specific prescription of moves that eventually takes any solvable state through the initial state?
Yeah, mine is way more interesting, Semiclassical's is somewhat more trivial
@Semiclassical Basically yes
Well the rubics group is finite, so choose a sequence of moves that moves to every position, no matter your starting point at some point you will hit the identity (the solved cube)
21:11
I think it's better to pose it the other way around: Is there a specific prescription of moves that, starting from the initial state, takes you through every single state in the solvable orbit?
Or that yeah
Now, as I just stated it, I think it's trivial. You can construct the Cayley graph of that group; it's large but finite, so there's definitely a path on that graph which visits all sites.
@PaulPlummer I'm not convinced
What's still interesting, though, is how efficient of a path I can take.
Hm, okay then. What's the upper bound to the minimum of the maximum amount of moves it will take to reach the solved position
I imagine this is more trivial
@Semiclassical That interests me too
21:15
hmm, pluckign from mathworld:
The term "God's number" is sometimes given to the graph diameter of Rubik's graph, which is the minimum number of turns required to solve a Rubik's cube from an arbitrary starting position (i.e., in the worst case). Rokicki et al. (2010) showed that this number equals 20. This computation used a bank of computers at Google and required a total of 35 CPU-years.
details here, apparently cube20.org
Yah I was thinking about that
lol
But I think that is with algorithms
My problem concerns a pre-set sequence of moves for all solvable initial positions
Nah, that's not about algorithms.
Quoting from the second link:
" Every solver of the Cube uses an algorithm, which is a sequence of steps for solving the Cube. One algorithm might use a sequence of moves to solve the top face, then another sequence of moves to position the middle edges, and so on. There are many different algorithms, varying in complexity and number of moves required, but those that can be memorized by a mortal typically require more than forty moves.
One may suppose God would use a much more efficient algorithm, one that always uses the shortest sequence of moves; this is known as God's Algorithm. The number of moves this algorithm would take in the worst case is called God's Number. At long last, God's Number has been shown to be 20. "
It isn't the same sequence for every state though
21:18
It is there is a sequence, with at most 20 moves which gets you back at the identity
Yeah, that's my point
Obviously not for all starting posititions
How many states have exactly 20 moves?
Quite a few, judging from the table on the cube20 link
i have never solved a cube. i think i can monochromatically color a side and the neighboring edges at best
My record is
35 seconds
Zach: Your geometry question has no "evident" answer. I'm working it out with Lagrange multipliers.
^ Anyone know the perquisites for Elements of Mechanics
there's a lot of really easy algorithms out there
i never tried one out
@BalarkaSen there's a nice way to construct a solution based on commutators that generalizes to a lot of twisting puzzles
Zach: If I haven't made a mistake, it won't be a right triangle, but the vector going from the origin to the point on the circle of radius 2 and the vector from the point on the circle of radius 1 to the point on the circle of radius 3 seem to be orthogonal!
21:26
@Semiclassical Is this problem related to graph theory?
i have never thought about it mathematically
Hey! @Did
Hm, do I know this Did?
Oh yes, it is the right Did
lol
0
Q: The devil's sequence: A Rubik's cube problem

Simply Beautiful ArtI thought of an interesting problem concerning the Rubik's cube, and it is as follows: Does there exist a sequence of moves that eventually returns any solvable Rubik's cube to the solved state? That is, can we solve all solvable Rubik's cubes without caring about its current state by using...

Anyhow, Zach, the actual algebra is basically undoable.
@Simply interesting question what if the question was generalized in terms of Quantum Mechanics ?
21:30
What question?
0
Q: The devil's sequence: A Rubik's cube problem

Simply Beautiful ArtI thought of an interesting problem concerning the Rubik's cube, and it is as follows: Does there exist a sequence of moves that eventually returns any solvable Rubik's cube to the solved state? That is, can we solve all solvable Rubik's cubes without caring about its current state by using...

@Semiclassical
^ That question
...what the hell does quantum mechanics have to do with that
Then you get magic water that cures cancer, and gets rid of headlice just like all quantum mechanical things. Wooo
gtfo
quantum mechanics makes me happy, quantum bullshit makes me cranky.
21:33
Wow, that was quickly answered
Slap quantum on it and you're instantly a qualified physicist
Right?!?1!1!1!?
@PaulPlummer worldbuilding.SE gets questions about wormholes drilled through spacetime by energy momentum and time warping happening from zooming in and out of them on international space stations
I'm only joking, don't worry.
21:35
@BalarkaSen hnnnng
Is there any trick to check the equality $\left [ (a-b)^2 +(b-c)^2 + (c-a)^2 \right ]^2 = 2\left [ (a-b)^4 +(b-c)^4 +(c-a)^4\right ]$?
you might want to do a substitution, bud
@Semiclassical Is that a thing between a suppressed lol and a grumble? :)
more like an groan of deep pain
$(a-b)^2 = x, (b-c)^2 = y, (a-c)^2 = z$
Then you get
$(x + y + z)^2 = 2x^2 + 2y^2 + 2z^2$
21:37
Zach: Did you see my comments above? I'm quitting after about 20 minutes on your question. There's not a nice elegant answer that I can see.
Also, I feel like I've seen that identity before.
Sorry for my problem being... not elegant. lol
@MeowMix you missed powers.
ah, no.
What's the question? @Zach
Given three concentric circles, how do you find the maximum area of a triangle where each point is on one of the three circles
Like
One point on the first, another on the second, a third on the last
@Ted Oh, the two thirds ratio thing came up in math today!
I was being bored and she came up to me and asked "Can you solve this one? Every year I can't figure out how to solve it."
And it turns out you had to use the ratio to find it.
It was a triangle with like the medians constructed
21:41
It's cool that she's trying to challenge you a bit, Zach. The 2/3 for medians, or the other 2/3 I told you about (with the three different centers)?
For medians.
You haven't done the other one, I'm sure :P
Is it hard?
I'm pretty sure I know the problem statement
It's the three centers on the Euler line
and you gotta prove that the ratio of the lengths is like 2/3
It's the last exercise in chapter 1, section 2, Zach. Well, it's not even obvious to me why the three points should be collinear!
it's drawing a cool picture for the median thing isn't it
extend stuff below
21:43
@BalarkaSen I believe it. At least it is for designing fictitious worlds, instead of spouting fiction and trying to convince people it is a reality.
Mm wolframalpha is giving that equality as true: wolframalpha.com/input/…
But clearly it isn't. Why?
that's fair i suppose
Huh... maybe affine stuff?
Because affine likes ratios...
@Topologicalife: Mathematica sometimes spits out wrong stuff. There's a question of whether things have the right context.
Zach: You can't do things with perpendicular bisectors or angle bisectors and affine geometry :P
Medians, sure.
I mean for the ratio
For proving them collinear, I'll probably have to bring out some Euclidean geometry
21:46
But these various centers are not affinely well-defined.
Only the centroid is.
Oh
Blegh
Of course, my intent is to use vector algebra/geometry everywhere.
I guess I could do that... But I'm having food right now. Sorry
@TedShifrin actually mathematica is giving the correct answer (I think)
I checked it with another algebra software.
21:49
I didn't even look, @Topologicalife. I suppose I should?
hi @PVAL
But with @MeowMix substitution it seems clearly wrong.
LOL, bon appétit, Zach.
Yeah, @TedShifrin, I'm checking if $\left [ (a-b)^2 +(b-c)^2 + (c-a)^2 \right ]^2 = 2\left [ (a-b)^4 +(b-c)^4 +(c-a)^4\right ]$ is true
doing the subtitution $(a-b)^2 = x, (b-c)^2 =y, (c-a)^2 = z$ gives $(x + y + z)^2 = 2x^2 + 2y^2 + 2z^2$
which is false
Right, the cross terms all combine in a special way because $(a-b)+(b-c)+(c-a)=0$.
Start with $x=a-b$, $y=b-c$, $z=c-a=-(x+y)$.
OH
I'M AN IDIOT
I forgot a restriction!!!1
You need that $x+y = -z$ 'n shit
21:53
Oh @TedShifrin, right
How's it going everyone?
Awful.
Just kidding
I'm okay, just tired
How about you
Iffy, the midterm had a problem which I just now realized was the reverse of what I thought it was
I can now read Greek because of doing math.
On the homework we had a problem about an increasing sequence of measures, and how you got a measure as well
On the midterm I originally thought it was the same
But this time it was swapped with decreasing
21:57
Oh oh, Demonark reads about as well as Balarka.
Or as me without my glasses.
Or as me with my glasses.
Demonark: I suppose they could all decrease to 0. Not very interesting.
Amin in the dark, Do you want to play some ombp in the Barty?
@TedShifrin I don't see how that substitution can help me
I think I deserve a bit of dyslexia grace at least in spirit, though this is gonna be a very hard hit since this midterm was only 5 problems
21:59
Why not, @Topologicalife?
I still have the same problem.
Are you using $x+y+z=0$?
Use the substitution.
Well, use it, darn it.

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