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17:10
I went to church, got my bible and now I am ready to bless anyone
@Daminark Oh yes, I suppose that works too.
It's not a different argument, actually.
hey chat
Same thing as bringing a plane with a given normal vector close to the manifold 'till you touch it :)
Hi @Eric
what's this business about a gauss map problem
17:13
daminark had to prove the gauss map is surjective once upon a long time ago
on a compact surface or something
yeah, compact
it's kind of amazing how many problems about compact surfaces can reduce to extremizing the height function
(This works for codim 1 manifolds, not just surfaces)
i usually just call those surfaces too tbh
17:16
hypersurfaces, puleeze.
i'll usually append the proper prefix don't worry
@TedShifrin hi prof
hi skull
how's the teeth?
oral surgery delayed because I have been sick ... :(
17:18
:(
get well soon@TedShifrin .
thanks, @BAYMAX. Did you think of a continuous function on $(0,1]$ that will not extend to a continuous function on $[0,1]$?
can it be $\frac{1}{x}$ ?
That would be one example, yes. Can you give me a bounded example?
17:22
bounded ? like $f$ is bounded ?
hi Semiclassic
Can it be $\log{x}$
@TedShifrin
hi@Semiclassical
That will also be unbounded.
17:26
I will think!
now
Hi, DogAteMy.
Oh, this is my favorite class of counterexamples
Hey @Ted!
And @Akiva
Hi Demonark
Demonark: Did you add my question to your list of questions? Prove that any retract of a smooth manifold must be a smooth submanifold. (And why is this false for only continuous manifolds?)
Do you know what a retraction is?
17:34
Today we proved that there was no smooth function $f:X\to \delta X$ whose restriction to $\delta X$ is the identity, which Neves called a retraction in passing
He uses $\delta X$ for $\partial X$?
Oh he writes the latter, I just didn't know that symbol in TeX
I always used delta
That's what a retraction is, Demonark. If $A\subset X$, we say $A$ is a retract if there is a (smooth in this case) function $r: X\to A$ with $r|_A = \text{id}_A$.
ah, \partial
You've never written partial derivatives? Hmm ...
Oh I have
And I always used that symbol
Though only rarely I guess
I wonder why $\partial$ is the symbol for boundary.
I mean, I see a connection with derivatives, kinda
but why the partial derivative symbol?
17:38
Differential in cobordism theory but that's probably the wrong reason :)
It comes from the boundary map in topology (which is $\partial$ by analogy with the usual $d$)
I suspect that topologists didn't want to confuse the boundary with the coboundary (which becomes the exterior derivative in deRham cohomology).
@Daminark For arbitrary manifolds with boundary?
Like, multi happened only for 2 weeks, and we didn't often deal with partial derivatives in that time anyway, Soug was just like "Yeah so derivative is a linear transformation, determine by action on a basis", and that was basically it
Yes, @Akiva.
Smooth manifold with boundary
@Akiva We only proved for compact, actually
17:39
In the study of currents, in which differential forms and submanifolds become the "same thing," it makes particularly nice sense.
No spoilers, So we are in search of a bounded continuous function not defined at $x = 0$ @TedShifrin
We used classification of compact curves
Don't make me grumble again, Demonark.
Ah, right. False otherwise @Daminark
because of the plane minus a closed disk
Yes, @BAYMAX.
17:40
I always forget the compact adjective whenever I say manifolds.
It's often a key adjective, Balarka.
For example, top homology of an n-manifold is ...
@Daminark What is that?
Right.
@Akiva Any compact 1-manifold has even number of bd components.
WITH boundary
a manifold has no boundary
Without boundary you just have 0 boundary components. Still even
17:42
Adjectives, adjectives... :P
smacks Balarka for excessive sloppiness
@TedShifrin So I think the whole paper scenario is resolved now. There were papers without names that weren't filed properly at the front office.
@Ted I wasn't being sloppy, sorry. See my message above.
Oh, really, @Semiclassic? So where did they go?
At least the other TA didn't do something heinous ...
Well, there's a big filing cabinet in the front office and apparently they were placed in the wrong folder?
I dunno. I didn't question it too much.
17:43
But yeah, any compact, connected curve is diffeomorphic to a circle or interval
DogAteMy: Any compact 1-manifold with boundary is a (finite) union of circles and closed intervals.
And the number of no names matches the number of missing papers.
Makes sense @TedShifrin
Weird, Semiclassic. I thought you were there for all the redistribution of the papers.
@Daminark So how does that help with showing that you can't retract onto boundaries?
17:44
But thank goodness it's settled without any malfeasance on anyone's part.
I was. This was a matter of when the grader was handing them back to the front office after grading.
@Akiva Pick a regular value in the boundary and preimage.
This is Mo Hirsch's cool proof. Awesome proof. Of course, I prefer the Stokes's Theorem proof :P
That's a compact 1-manifold (with boundary but I am not going to say that everytime)
well, you really need to say it.
17:44
I mean, the students affected still need to go to the front office to figure out which paper is theirs.
1-manifold wb
To (almost all) the world, a manifold is one without boundary.
@Daminark what have you done in class so far
Hi @Eric.
@BalarkaSen Why?
17:45
I suppose 'compact bounded manifold' isn't an appropriate phrase.
@Ted It's clear what I meant when I said it above.
hi @Ted!
@Semiclassic. Time for a big lecture about the importance of names on every page. And someone has to grade those 8 pages?
I can easily see maps where some components of the preimage of a point are points.
Or is that part of the regularity condition?
@AkivaWeinberger If you pick a regular value, that can't happen.
17:46
I'm guessing this only allows for smooth retracts, then.
I think they're already graded, they just got misplaced at the front office (and somehow not submitted to the gradebook either...)
Indeed.
You need to specify that both $f$ and $\partial f$ have the regularity.
in the TOP category you want homology to prove this.
Someone still screwed up, but not in a catastrophic way.
17:46
Oh, I see, @Semiclassic. It was upon the return trip that they got filed away. Sooo complicated.
@BalarkaSen Right, seems reasonable
Yup.
Luckily none of that complication actually involved anything I did. :P
@TedShifrin , I thought of a piecewise function ?
On $(0,1]$, @BAYMAX?
it wont be continuous then
yes
17:48
Like what?
First week was definition of a manifold, tangent space, derivatives, regular/critical values. This week was Sard, FTA, Whitney, classification of curves and surfaces (without proof), and starting Brouwer's fixed point theorem @Eric
Well we did sketch for curves
Programs phone to autocorrect "wb" to "without boundary"
ROFL
Can I program my autocorrection?
On iPhones, sure
I think I most often use manifolds for manifold with boundary and closed manifolds for not
17:49
So FWB becomes "friend without boundary" :P
I mean, you can add extra shortcuts @TedShifrin
cool cool, we didn't do Sard or Whitney till like halfway through the quarter when i took the class @Daminark
Nah, it has to be its own word @TedShifrin
I also have "musicnotes" as a shortcut for "♫"
like $f(x) = 1 $ if $x \in (0,1] $
@TedShifrin
Any ideas about this one?
17:50
but when extended
@BAYMAX. Well that certainly extends to be a continuous function on $[0,1]$!!!
@BalarkaSen You never finished that proof
Which proof?
We're not asking if you can extend it discontinuously, @BAYMAX. We're asking if you can extend it continuously. Obviously yes.
@BalarkaSen The one you started here
17:51
I want a bounded function which you cannot.
Oh, I thought you were starting to prove the thing
ha ha ha
ha
$$ \int_0^\pi \log(a - \cos x) \,\mathrm{d}x \ , \qquad |a| > 1 $$
@AkivaWeinberger Sure? Preimage of a regular value by that retraction is a compact 1-manifold with boundary a single point. That's nonexistent.
That looks like a standard residue theorem exercise, @N3.
17:52
Well, we only defined manifolds as subsets of $\mathbb{R}^n$, so our version of Whitney was that if you had a compact manifold with dimension $k$, you could embed it into $\mathbb{R}^{2k+1}$
And we did not prove Sard
Still a very cool proof, Demonark.
secant varieties are life
It's got important geometric ideas which will show up all over differential topology and algebraic geometry.
so there doesnot exist any bounded function which can be extended continuously from $(0,1]$ to $[0,1]$
@TedShifrin
What, @BAYMAX? Proofread.
17:53
@BalarkaSen I guess that's part of the regularity thing as well?
That the function would be bijective on the boundary points?
ah ok, part of the reason it took so long to get anywhere when i was in it was probably that our lecturer took like 3 weeks giving alternate definitions of basic things
I am not getting an example @TedShifrin
Oh yeah I appreciated it big time, just that I think that when Eric did it last year, they defined manifolds abstractly so it required more setup, while we kept everything simple and could reach things faster
Ah
17:54
You meant another "not" in your sentence, @BAYMAX.
@TedShifrin Maybe, I dunno. I was able to solve the integral over $0$ to $\pi/2$ using derivation under the integral sign. However I ran into some problems with the one above. Bah
@AkivaWeinberger No, the point is the retraction is identity restricted on the boundary.
@Daminark my lecturer spent like a week talking about sheaves
Go back to basic calculus, @BAYMAX. Can you give me a continuous function $f$ on $(0,1]$ so that $\lim\limits_{x\to 0^+} f(x)$ does not exist?
And on the interior of $X$ you have an honest 1-manifold. So the resulting thing is a 1-manifold with a single boundary point.
17:54
So why can't there be other boundary points in the preimage
@Akiva Because boundary points are not manifold points.
In the interior preimage is an honest manifold (without boundary)
But the preimage is a different manifold
@Eric: Such a waste when there's beautiful applications of transversality to do. I don't know why people feel like they have to teach technical grad courses to undergraduates.
The preimage, in the interior of $X$, locally looks like R^1 inside R^n (by the regular value thing). That's all I mean.
It's a manifold point on the original $2$-manifold, but not necessarily a manifold point on the $1$-dimensional preimage, right?
17:56
@Eric I don't think we'll be doing sheaves? Not sure but I don't expect it, it seems like our sections of the class differ significantly
@BalarkaSen So it is part of the regularity thing.
lol @Daminark Neves will 100% never say the word sheaf to you
@Eric, Demonark: I've used sheaves and sheaf cohomology in my research my whole life, but I would never put them in an undergraduate diff top class. In the third quarter of graduate complex analysis, yes.
We seem to be focusing more on stuff like degree
Kek @Eric
Now, differential forms, on the other hand ... I certainly have included in the Guillemin & Pollack course.
Demonark: Neves is teaching a far better course.
17:58
@Ted I agree, the course was so overly technical that I came out not able to do anything. A lot of people came out of it with a bad taste in their mouth concerning anything differential, which is a shame because the stuff is so beautiful.
This sort of thing makes me grumble loudly, @Eric.
@Daminark The proof of Whitney is beautiful but I think I only understand that $2k+1$ using transversality.
I am thinking of functions which blows up at $x = 0$ but then they become unbounded and I need a bounded function!@TedShifrin
Why, @Balarka? You can see the dimension of the secant variety ...
I think UChicago does this all the time and it's incredibly frustrating
17:59
Now you know why I bitch about UC's curriculum, @Eric :P
@Ted Yeah I appreciate that we're just jumping in to conceptual content, like most of what's going on is understanding a picture properly as opposed to waddling through tons of mechanical details
Well, Demonark, I sure hope he'll eventually prove the transversality theorems in chapter 2 of G&P, but I usually do applications of 'em before I do the proofs.
@BAYMAX: You should know an example of a bounded function with no limit, @BAYMAX.
Can you draw pictures?
We're going out of order from what the syllabus said, but we would be doing transversality 6th and 7th week
@TedShifrin Yes, but I think it's not as clear. What I want to say if I somehow immerse $X$ in $\Bbb R^n$, then you can "make $X$ self-intersect transversely" which removes all singularities if $n > k + k = 2k$. So you at least need dimension $n = 2k+1$. But of course this is not very rigorous.
I just think it's a clean intuition.
@Daminark in the Riemannian geo course he's taking he's taking a really computational perspective with lots of examples, it's really pretty fun, I think the geometry/topology grad sequence here is probably the most worthwhile of the grad sequences.
18:01
can it be dirichlet function ?
@TedShifrin
No, @BAYMAX.
@Balarka: I don't understand. We're not talking Whitney trick. What are you babbling about?
Hint: it doesn't need to be an increasing or decreasing function @BAYMAX
It can change direction sometimes
@Ted Huh? I am not talking about Whitney trick.
Thanks, DogAteMy. That's a good clue.
@Balarka: I want to find a direction along which to project which is neither tangent nor a chord. What are you doing?
@Eric Yeah I'm definitely hoping to taking that and/or grad algebra 4th year
18:04
@TedShifrin I'm just saying, if you have an immersed $k$-dimensional compact submanifold of $\Bbb R^n$, then you can "perturb" it to be an embedding if $n > 2k$ by self-transversality.
Which is how I think of the fact that $2k+1$ is the right dimension of Whitney.
The intuition still comes from what I said, I believe, @Balarka. Transversality of what map to what submanifold?
Thanks@AkivaWeinberger
@TedShifrin This is self-transversality, not transversality in the usual sense. If you have a smooth immersion $f : M^k \to N^n$ of a manifold $M$ with the only singularities being double points (i.e., not injective only at double points), then you can homotope it by an arbitrarily small homotopy such that locally near the double points it looks like two $k$-dimensional transverse subspaces in $\Bbb R^n$.
@Daminark unless peter may is teaching the first quarter of the top sequence, if he is I would say avoid it.
All of this is developed in a few exercises in Hirsch.
*affine subspaces I should say.
18:09
It's an application of jet transversality, @Balarka, but I think the Whitney embedding proof is far easier for most people.
@TedShifrin , thought of like $f$ is positive in negative real axis and negative in postive real axis , may be i am blabla
We're only defined on $(0,1]$, @BAYMAX. DogAteMy suggested you think about a function that oscillates (hint: infinitely often as you approach 0).
sin(1/x)
There you go!
ha ha ha aha
yo :)
18:10
@Eric I mean, I'll only get one shot to take it and I have to learn algebraic topology somehow
OK ... Now, can you give me continuous functions on your $T$ that do not extend to continuous functions on $S$?
What are $T$ and $S$ here
Plus I thought that May doesn't teach it often
Demonark: You have grad school ... you don't have to jam everything into undergrad!!! I never took alg top as an undergrad. I wanted to take several complex variables and complex manifolds instead.
DogAteMy: $S$ was the unit square, $T$ removed the origin.
@Ted Agreed. I don't think this can be made into a proof any easier than the usual one you are speaking of. (After all, even if you do all of this, you need to immerse $M$ into $\Bbb R^{2k+1}$ by the same projection-to-subspaces thing... so why not just do this for embedding anyway).
18:11
@Daminark I was told by a grad student who took algebraic top with him that it's almost worse to take it under May then to just not take it at all.
yup , i was late
Just an intuition of mine I wrote down on the margins of my copy of G-P :)
@Balarka: Sard by itself is way more basic than any transversality theorem, especially a jet transversality theorem :P
@TedShifrin if we had courses in SCV or complex manifolds I'd take that over loads of things in a heart beat but there's just nothing :( very sad
Of course.
18:13
@TedShifrin This is simpler. I don't think you need an infinitary object like you do with $(0,1]$.
@Ted I actually kinda forgot that's a thing, lol. Though we don't have anything other than vanilla complex I think
Unit square means $[0,1]^2$, DogAteMy.
Hi @Alessandro
But I found the picture of Sard's is only clear when you start thinking about transversality.
18:13
I don't know what you mean, DogAteMy. What is an "infinitary object"?
(Picture, not the theorem itself, note.)
I just mean something with an infinite amount of detail
I agree that transversality is more something to picture than Sard, @Balarka.
I suppose I just mean fractal
like $\sin(1/x)$ is
Now I have no idea what you're talking about, DogAteMy.
18:15
Aren't there rational functions that would solve this (and still be bounded)?
@BAYMAX can certainly generalize his unbounded example easily, but the unbounded example also generalizes nicely.
Of course, DogAteMy. Baymax started with such an example in one dimension. I asked him to think through and get a bounded example.
Oh, bounded rational function that doesn't extend? Hmmm ...
I don't think that can happen.
Oh, I see. That's way more subtle.
@Balarka: Think through all the examples we did in Multivariable Math with understanding subtleties of continuity.
@BalarkaSen Ted has tons in his textbook even
Yeah
I have a sequence of continuous functions $f_n:\Bbb R\to\Bbb R$ that converges pointwise on a set $X\subseteq \Bbb R$, what can be said about $X$? How ugly can it be?
18:17
But that's way too much for Baymax.
Oh, we can go multivariable now? I thought we were just doing (0, 1]
For R^1 it surely can't happen
He solved that. Now we're doing $[0,1]^2$ and $[0,1]^2\setminus\{\langle0,0\rangle\}$ apparently
@Alessandro: Even better — if $f_n$ converges pointwise everywhere, what can you say about the set of continuity of the limit function?
Oh. Missed that bit of conversation.
I agree there are examples in multivariable.
I reverted to BAYMAX's original question from yesterday. I had sidetracked him to understand one dimension first.
18:19
Here too I am thinking about $\sin(1/x)$ @TedShifrin
yup I got the generalisation you aredoing like from 1D to 2D
way too much for Baymax ,which one @TedShifrin
@BAYMAX: I'm avoiding understanding the subtleties of continuous functions in two dimensions. There is a whole story there that you do not need.
So can you easily make a function that's continuous everywhere on $\Bbb R^2$ except at the origin?
It can be bounded or it can be unbounded.
@Ted: Out of curiosity, may I know what jet transversality is about? (I have heard the word jet a lot but I don't know it).
ok @TedShifrin will get you back,
@TedShifrin hm, interesting question, I hope that's at least dense in $\Bbb R$ because I'd guess it is
You're making not only the function, but its various derivatives also, transverse to a certain submanifold in the space of functions plus k derivatives.
18:25
Ah.
@BalarkaSen Sounds like a synonym for "plane crash"
grumbles at DogAteMy
@Alessandro: You want to decide if it's first or second category :P
dinner timy,bye all .
Class time, bye all
18:27
Bye, all.
I feel like, on a rainy day, I should pick up Hirsch or something other and read in excruciating details the local genericity theorems for maps between manifolds.
@TedShifrin all of the examples I can think of right now definitely have a first category set of discontinuities
So I guess I'll try to prove that's always the case
There's also Guillemin & Golubitsky, @Balarka.
(@Alessandro, what works for $\Bbb R$ surely will work for any complete metric space.)
@Ted Interesting, didn't know of that book.
Interestingly, several of my publications involved subtle singularity theory.
18:39
Fun. How did those come to play?
Gauss mappings.
For example, suppose you look (in the case of complex projective surfaces, but you can think about real stuff for now) at asymptotic curves on a surface. Generically, they'll have inflection points. Those inflection points make a curve that runs into the parabolic curve. How do we charcaterize those points of intersection?
good night mike
@Balarka What kind of approximation are you looking for? An embedding?
18:41
G'night, @MikeM. Hi @Liad.
@TedShifrin Hi
Embed N in R^K, take a tubular neighborhood, use genericity of embeddings for maps to R^K, then a transversality argument to show embedding is still generic when youbproject back down.
@TedShifrin are you familiar with computability ? (DFA/NFA/CFL/CFG/i think every combination of 3 letters will be here)
@TedShifrin Oh, interesting picture.
@Liad. Definitely loud NO.
18:44
:P
@Balarka: McCrory and I, in our first paper out of a number on this sort of thing, then counted all the various loci on a generic surface in $\Bbb P^3$ of degree $d$. (Arnol'd had done some of the same stuff in a very brief paper. But we nailed down all the genericity stuff way more than the Russians tend to do.)
@MikeMiller Are you approximating immersions by embeddings?
Not sure what you are describing in that message.
P.S. @Balarka: In one dimension higher, hypersurfaces in $\Bbb P^4$, there is a much richer singularity theory story.
Back later ...
@TedShifrin Gotcha. Sounds like good stuff.
Bubye.
@BalarkaSen Don't worry about it.
18:57
Hey lads.

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