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19:00
To prove that the given the discrete topology we have for all $x\in X$ $\pi_1(X,x)=\{1 \}$ I must prove that every loop going from $x$ to $x$ are homotopic right ?
@BalarkaSen Did you have an example where I can't make a 3-cycle simply connected?
@MikeMiller No, but I thought about a few things. I asked you a question before, have you seen it?
@JeSuis: Truly, discrete topology? Then the only loops are constant maps.
indiscrete*
19:04
@MikeMiller Take two 3-planes in R^6. Perturb it near the intersection to make it nonsingular (or, work with two RP^3's transversely intersecting in RP^6 if you want). What's the resulting 3-manifold you get?
@heather: Of course, the angle can be far bigger than $360^\circ$ or $2\pi$. Imagine a wheel rolling a long distance along the ground :)
Good moment for me to cite this page again: math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rolling
Lots of fun rolling pictures there.
@TedShifrin, well....yeah, I suppose...but it's the "simplest" large one, sort of. or am I thinking about this wrong?
And if you're going to use degrees rather than radians, you should probably not write $\theta$. You should at least put a degree symbol. Really, get used to working in radians exclusively ... :)
That gives me a 0-manifold.
19:09
@heather: If you say "the full circle is ..." then it's OK. But remember that angles can be any real number (in radians) ... Radians have no units, but of course degrees is a unit.
You can derive the area of the circle just as a limit, the way the Greeks did. Also, please do not write $\int_0^r f(r)\,dr$. That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Do you see what's wrong?
@TedShifrin why no $\theta$? And where'd I forget a degrees symbol?
@MikeMiller Err? I mean think about the $zw = 0$ to $zw = \epsilon$ picture for CP^1's in CP^2 instead. That gives me a torus from two spheres.
What's the story for 3 dimensions?
@TedShifrin I'm afraid I don't.
19:11
I dunno how the resulting 3-manifold looks like
Oh I see.
A comparison may help: What's wrong with $\sum_{n=1}^n s_n?$
If you're measuring angles in degrees (as you did before you got to radians), you should write $t^\circ$ or something. (You eventually went back and put $\theta/360^\circ$, but you should have the degree symbol both places.)
@heather: You're using $r$ as a dummy variable (inside the integral) and as a fixed quantity (the upper limit of the integral). PLEASE don't do that.
Prettt sure you're still just taking a connected sum.
You only get a torus with three planes
If you want the area of the circle of radius $r$, then write $\int_0^r (2\pi u)\,du$ :)
19:13
@TedShifrin okay
@TedShifrin oh, okay
I will never do that again
When you do the fundamental theorem of calculus, differentiating the integral as a function of $r$, it's totally confusing if you have $r$'s everywhere!!!
any hints?
@MikeMiller You don't get S^2 # S^2 for 2-planes in R^4... I mean link of a singularity for two C's in C^2 looks like a Hopf link and you're gluing in the Siefert surface there.
That's a handle
Am I misunderstanding?
Yeah that's a handle going between two 2-spheres.
Hi chat
19:14
@Balarka Isn't that critical point equivalent to $x^2+y^2= 0$, so you probably get $\Sigma (2,2,1)$ which is some lense space.
thank you for your advice @TedShifrin
(the branched double cover over the hopf link)
@PVAL Oh, good point.
@heather: I give constructive criticism only to make you better :) Eventually, you might want to use pens and different colors, but I think you're starting off great.
@Adel: Well, there's certainly a "stupid" answer to that question.
non-trivial please @TedShifrin XD
19:17
@TedShifrin my goal is to make a video whenever I learn something very interesting, or worth sharing.
Well, thousands of videos might be too much :)
It's a pity that the MSE blog died.
@Adel: I didn't mean 0.
well, I don't think a lot of what I learn is worth sharing
Hey everyone!
19:18
Hi, Demonark.
How's it going?
Salut @Ted
Salut @Astyx.
Comment vas-tu ?
@TedShifrin I have no clue. I can't seem to find that damned polynomial. Someone suggested using the Sylvester resultant but I have no clue how :(
19:19
Ça va, merci, et toi? Les études vont mieux?
Oops. The resultant is more complicated than my "stupid" solution, @Adel.
@anybody please help :P
@MikeMiller I haven't thought about it all but my basic idea would be to take a nontrivial vector bundle over the sphere of the same dimension as the base; projectivize and take the double of the zero section. That should perturb to a self-intersecting sphere with the singularity replaced by what looks like two n-planes in R^2n perturbed.
That shouldn't be representable by a sphere.
@Adel: If I think of two integers $a$ and $b$, how do I create integers $m$ and $n$ so that $ma-nb = 0$?
This is not possible for n = 3 because S^3 has no 3-plane bundle on it: $\pi_2(SO(3))$ is trivial
Ça va. Les études n'ont jamais arrêter d'aller bien, c'est juste la motivation qui s'est absentée. Le plus dur maintenant ça va être de ne pas succomber au beau temps et à continuer encore 3 mois
19:21
But I think there may be examples for 4-cycles for this
This does not address the more general question about simply connected complex thing though
Anyhow, I have to go now. I'll think through these all later
@TedShifrin $p_2p_1-p_1p_2$ is the zero polynomial in the variables $p_1,p_2$
@Astyx: Tu me sembles plus ou moins déprimé, alors :(
C'est plus ou moins le cas, mais bon, ça va passer :)
Is someone familiar with the notation used in "PRINCIPIA MATHEMATICA" by Bertrand Russell and Alfred Whitehead?
19:23
@TedShifrin but the polynomial $p_2p_1-p_1p_2$ is not from $F^2->F$, it's from $F->F$ and it is the zero polynomial. I want a non trivial poly $q:F^2->F$ that vanishes on (p_1(t),p_2(t)) for all t.
@Astyx: Peut-être qu'il vaudrait mieux parler avec ton médecin?
@Balarka It's super easy to not be able to represent classes by a sphere. I'm asking about being able to represent them by a simply connected chain.
That's the book where they proof the equality of 1+1 and 2 by introducing a "new" fundamental logical concept.
@Adel $p_2p_1-p_1p_2$ is of the form $F^2\to F$, where $(p_1,p_2)\in F^2$. it just happens to be the zero polynomial.
@PhysicsGuy, oh yeah - they only prove 1+1=2 in the second volume, right?
19:25
So we're just trying to say that any rationally parametrized curve in the plane is given as an algebraic curve.
@Ted Après les concours si ça ne passe pas, mais il n'y a pas de raison que ça reste
exactly @TedShifrin
@heather Yes.
@BalarkaSen @MikeMiller So, I know that if I have two sets with nonzero distance, and the complement of each set is path-connected, then the complement of their union is path-connected. Is this still true if I replace "path-connected" with "connected"? I've talked about this sort of thing before, but with closed sets specifically, so that path-connected and connected coincide.
(Pinging you because you seem like the people to ping for topology questions)
Hi everyone, I am very frustrated trying to solve this question
19:27
OK, @Astyx, mais il n'y a pas de problème s'il te faut parler avec quelqu'un de professionel. :) Il ne faut pas tout nier :)
You already posted that above. Don't spam.
do i delete? @Semiclassical
Oui, merci pour ton soutien en tout cas, ça me touche
Just don't repeat it needlessly.
Entendu, @Astyx. Mais n'oublie pas que tu as des amis :)
19:28
Oui oui, je n'oublie pas, ne t'inquiète pas :)
@AkivaWeinberger In most of the cases, it doesn't matter if you have a path-connected or a connected set. But I am not sure because I only had to deal with it in physics, so maybe this won't help you.
@Adel: It really is something called elimination theory.
And it's not a statement that could be proven.@AkivaWeinberger
(To prove it for the path-connected version, you overlay a grid onto the plane with mesh size much smaller than the distance between the sets, turning it into a much easier discrete problem.)
@TedShifrin will i find my answer there?
19:30
@Secret I see. I used a different way of getting that result proved, a very simple one.
(Actually, now I have a bit of a doubt...)
@TedShifrin To prove that $\zeta(s)=\sum_{k=0}^{+\infty}\frac{1}{n^s}$ is holomorphic on $U:=\{s; \Re(s)>1\}$ I use Weierstrass convergence theorem; do you know what tools we need to prove that it converges only for $\Re(s)>1$ ?
@Adel: It's nontrivial. But you have $x=p_1(t)$, $y=p_2(t)$, and you want to eliminate the variable $t$. That's elimination theory.
(Yeah, OK, it should be fine)
Chat, one question for all of you: how many new mathematical problems have you created today?
19:33
@JeSuis: Of course there's an analytic continuation to a larger domain ...
Um ...
What is the point of calculating a $p$-value?
@Ted Suppose I have a fixed 1-form on a manifold. Do you see a way to use this to "weight" parallel transport? Ideally if it's zero somewhere the holonomy in that direction "isn't counted".
It seems like an unnecessarily harsh test
Chat, another question for all of you: how many new tools have you created today to approach classical or new problems as never done before?
"What are the odds your science is bull" @Lozansky
(I know next to nothing about this)
19:35
@AkivaWeinberger Well why not use statistical power?
@Lozansky I'm vaguely familiar with this sort of thing, the idea is that p-value is supposed to tell you what the chances are that you get the more extreme results you're getting if you assume that there's no sort of causation, I believe
@MikeM: No, I don't. I can integrate $\omega$ along the closed path, but that has nothing to do with your parallel transport. I can consider $\omega(X_f) - \omega(X_0)$, where $X_f$ is the vector I get parallel transporting $X_0$ along the closed path, but ... meh.
Chat, and one more question: aren't you tired of solving every day the same questions (more or less), and follow the same path in mathematics described in the books you read (well, it's an amazing thing to read books, I do it, but carefully read me to understand my point) without creating your own ways of doing mathematics, or to be more direct, to create your own mathematics?
I think mathematicians creates their own mathematics
What can be more noble than discovering mathematics in your own personal style? Following your own ways, creative ways which represent you, define you.
19:37
Like Ted here.
@Danimark Causation of what?
I've been given this hint but I couldn't understand to use it to construct q
Yeah, that's elimination theory.
@Adel how to compute resultants is on wikipedia
and it makes clear the resultant is a polynomial in the original polylnomial's coefficients
in this case, polynomial in x and y
@JeSuis: de que parles-tu, donc?
19:40
Well say we do some experiment and we're trying to see whether variables $X$ and $Y$ have anything to do with each other. If we run our stuff and find a high p-value, then the variation in results is not enough for us to go and say that there's interesting behavior. If the p-value is low, you get a result which is "statistically significant"
@arctictern but my polynomials $p_1$ and $p_2$ are arbitrary. Should I still compute the determinant?
@TedShifrin Du fait que les mathématiciens créent leurs propres problèmes mathématiques, mais je suppose que c'est un troll?
@Adel then you're have to refer to the sylvester resultant. did your problem come from a book? if so, the tools to do the problem come in the section before it...
And @Don'tdisturb I find that with many subjects people see in undergrad (before that you're not even really proving things because school system), there is somewhat less room for creativity.
My school has an IBL Calculus class in first year, where you are given definitions and you figure out all the proofs yourself
@JeSuis Je ne sais pas trop, c'est pas la première fois qu'il en parle sur ce chat
19:42
@JeSuis, je suppose que toi tu es un troll :P
@arctictern not from a book, which is making my life hell to be honest
@Ted Yeah, me neither. I have an idea about how to do it infinitesimally (if I was really interested in the derivative of holonomy), but not how to actually do it
They even go somewhat off the beaten path, by developing this "continuum" and learning about its topology (spoiler alert: it's $\mathbb{R}$), then building other stuff off it
@TedShifrin LOL
In general the picture I have is I have a loop and I'd really only like to care about the holonomy away from a neigjborhood of the basepoint.
19:44
@Astyx ça reste une "bonne" question finalement, le problème de savoir si un jour on sera créatif
Say you gamble on a vending machine with the probability $p$ to win. The number of games $X$ till the first win has the probability function $$p_x(k) = p(1-p)^{k-1}$$ for $k\in \mathbb{N^{+}}$. Say that $H_0 : p =0.2$ and $H_1 : p < 0.2$. Can we reject the null hypothesis on a certain significance level (say $0.10$) if we lose the first $10$ games and win the $11$th? The $p$-value would be $$\sum_{k=11}^{\infty}0.2(1-0.2)^{k-1}=0.8^{10} = 0.107$$ so we cannot reject it.
Reminds me, I should go do some reading on Stokes stuff.
The thing is, though, once you're given those definitions as such, even then it starts leading you somewhat to the proof, and in subjects like analysis it's tricky to just have divine inspiration and come up with the definitions to build up the material. A lot of earlier stages of calculus was inspired by necessity from physics, and later stuff with $\delta-\epsilon$ came to rigorize (heh) it
@JeSuis: Perhaps I'm being stupid, but I don't see how to prove in a global way that $\sum 1/n^s$ diverges when $\Re(s)\le 1$. You can't prove divergence absolutely.
But I bet we get another answer using $90$% confidence interval
19:45
@MikeM: What do you mean by "holonomy away from the basepoint"? I assume you mean non-nullhomologous loops.
@TedShifrin We can always say it for $\Re(s)\le 0$ :P
And a lot of early undergrad stuff is analysis. I find that subjects along the lines of graph theory might be more amenable to a more, let's just be creative, treatment
OK, @JeSuis, because the terms don't go to 0. Fair enough.
I need to eat lunch, so I'll ponder whilst I eat.
@Ted If I knew what I meant, I'd just do that :)
19:47
Bon appétit !
See you @Ted!
Cya prof.
I really don't see the value of calculating a $p$-value
"What's the value of a p-value?" is a nice question title.
19:54
Answer: null
How valuable are p-values?
bah, that's good
Do p-values have any value?
What's the point of a fixed point-theorem?
To fix a point.
19:57
@Lozansky I'm probably not best to answer that, but it seems like the general consensus is that when p-values are low, there's good reason to believe that the results you get in an experiment are indicative of something significant, as opposed to just random
How significant is a significant level?
@skullpetrol Is the point broken?
"Do you like your book on rocks? "Nah, it's too dense."
@Daminark Sure, but why not use a confidence interval or statistical power?
This is probably a better question for people who actually know stats :)
Hence why I'm staying out of it.
19:59
Can anyone please help on this. In power series we use series with center 0 ( we check whether the functions are analytic there or not ). If the function is not analytic at 0 we use Frobenius. Is it ok to not use Frobenius & use power series at another point where the functions are analytic. Or is it necessary to apply Frobenius there at x=0
I've heard there is some debate on that
Are you talking series solutions to differential equations?
Note that the only knowledge I have about this comes from a week for when we did it in bio
@Ted I think what I want is a smooth function $S^1 \to [0,1]$, 1 on a small neighborhood of the identity and 0 on a large open set, and a fixed base connection $A_0$, and to compute the holonomy of the time-dependent connection $A+\varphi(t)(A_0-A)$.
@Daminark @Semiclassical yes series solutions
20:05
In principle, I should know this.
I guess the thing to say is: If you pick an ordinary point near the singular point, then you can write down analytic series solutions in the vicinity of that ordinary point.
However, if you analytically continue them around the singular point, they won't necessarily return to themselves.
Ah, @Shash I was talking to Lozansky when I said that
Hi guys. I have to show that a cube (three-dimensional) has 48 congruences. As of now, I'm counting 20 rotations and 9 reflections. Unless I made a mistake, is there some way to include the compositions of rotations and reflections?
symmetries, not congruences. composition of rotation and reflection is a reflection.
@Semiclassical So can we avoid using Frobenius and use series solution at another point where the functions are analytic. Because I am beginner at series solutions so I am not good at it. And I had asked this question and the comment bay Ian was confusing. Now I don't know whether we can form a series at a point other that 0....
Way I think I got it
20:12
also, orbit-stabilizer is best
I'm not really parsing what's going on and not really paying attention atm.
@Daminark sorry
It's aight
Is it possible to apply the following reasoning; we consider the 6 faces of the cube, and note that each face can be rotated in 4 ways, and rotated+mirrored in 4 ways, so we have 8. If we multiply 8 by 6, we get 48 symmetries.
With $4$ ways, I suspect you mean $4$ multiples of $90^\circ$?
20:24
yes
Then you count the identity (rotating by $0^\circ$ ) for each face, so you have the identity $6$ times in those 48 symmetries.
oh true:(
oh I've found something on wikipedia maybe
it seems that the best approach is to find the 23 proper rotations, and then multiply by 2
Yeah, that's pretty much it I guess. The symmetry group is $S_{4} \times \mathbb{Z}_2$
23*2=46<48?
+1 identity
20:31
It's not too hard to see once you realise you have to work with pairs of diagonally opposite vertices :P
"rotation about an axis from the center of a face to the center of the opposite face by an angle of 90°: 3 axes, 2 per axis, together 6"
why isn't it 3 per axis?
90degree, 180degree, 270degree?
there's $4$ such pairs, and you can permute them freely, which gives you $S_4$. And then there's inversion through the center, which gives $\mathbb{Z}_2$.
oh wait I get it
they only treat angle 90degree
later on they treat 180 degrees
And sorry, we haven't had $\mathbb Z_2$ yet
o.O
But but
You've learned what a group is, no?
20:36
How can you know about groups but not have seen $\mathbb{Z}_2$ o.O
haha can you tell me?:P
it's difficult to search online
$\{1,-1\}$.
It's the unique group of order $2$
Is this not just a notation problem ?
$\Bbb Z / 2\Bbb Z$ ?
ah yes, I'm familiar with that one @Astyx
20:37
It's the same thing
Z/nZ=Z_n
oh right
$\mathbb{Z}_2, \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}, S_2, C_2, \ldots$
all notations for the same group
If your teacher always wrote it as $\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$ or $\mathbb{Z}/2$ rather than $\mathbb{Z}/2$, chanches are he's into number theory.
his research interests have a lot to do with "mirror symmetries" apparently
Yikes, he's a mirror symmetry person?
20:41
yes, very much
That's quite high-level.
As in, reflection symmetries in general?
What's that
Or mirror symmetries on CY's?
Probably the latter.
20:42
here you can see for yourself; staff.fnwi.uva.nl/r.r.j.bocklandt
i personally have no idea
well, once you see "homological mirror symmetry" it's CY...
Point.
This is the part of mathematical physics that I'm not at all able to talk about.
"physics"
20:45
@MikeM: I saw your ping. So why are you not just integrating the ($t$-dependent) connection form around the path to get the holonomy?
this is one of those examples where physicists discovered something that turned out to be really interesting to mathematicians
You can do that. My idea isn't very useful anyway.
@ShaVuklia: Don't forget there are symmetries rotating about the long diagonals (elements of order 3).
@SteamyRoot The mathematics is great! I'm just skeptical it should be called physics.
Well, I'd classify it as "mathematical physics" but not "theoretical physics."
20:48
@MikeM: I honestly don't see anything else to ponder, but maybe I'm not clever enough.
Well, I guess the mirror symmetries themselves have transcended physics.
"physically-interesting mathematics"? ;)
@Ted It might just not exist.
@MikeMiller Fair enough. I'll have to think about it.
20:57
Hi @Alessandro

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