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01:50
hi @ted
02:18
hello
02:46
someone have an idea about this:math.stackexchange.com/questions/2181343/…
03:09
Who knows Brezis-lieb lemma ?
Xam
Xam
03:43
Hello
I think I need a category theory of harmonic numbers (and other series defined number sequences) to better understand the symmetries within these numbers
Xam
Xam
@Secret hi
03:58
hi
Hi pal @ZachHauk
Nice vid.
04:14
If I understood correctly, I sometimes have this feeling when I do linear algebra and some abstract algebra investigations
But for me, at least for the moment being, it is to understand the patterns within mathematical objects and to use them
Abstract algebra is relatively easy on this regard because everything happens one step at a time.
Analysis, however have many things happening at the same time, thus hard to track
Integrals are somewhere in the middle. It is known that each integrand has some kind of symmetry that allows integrals to be evaluated without knowing their closed forms and integrals are linear functionals thus you can sort of treat it like a function with the integrand as its argument, which is another function and that can constrain the possible behaviour of the integral itself
If I understood correctly, algebraic geometry abstract this notions in the form of complex varieties and the Hodge conjecture then asked in some sense whether you can decompose an integrand
Infinite series are even harder, because unlike integrals, it has this extra complication of nonassociativity
(O and in case someone ask me why I don't ping, it is because I want to quote two messages at the same time)
If this

$$\sum_{k \in I}f(H_k)$$

forms nice algebraic structures like groups , rings etc. for some f, then the problem might be easier since e.g. groups encode symmetries of the underlying structure, and that is precisely what we need in order to to the pattern matching
Perhaps, an even more general question is whether we can find a $g$ such that:

$$g: \sum_{k \in I}f(H_k) \to \int_U f(H_k) d\mu$$
@Secret hi
04:31
... I wonder if there is a topology where the harmonic series converges to a unique limit...?
...and whether it is always valid to start a problem in some topology, and then use a mophism to map its solution to another non homeomorphic topology in order to solve the original problem...?
@Secret yes. the standard topology on the extended real line
if you want the topology to be purely on R, you can just set 0 to be infinity
you don't need 0 in this question anyway
hi DHMO
@KasmirKhaan god dag
@DHMO good day !
You know about recursive relations?
hmm... I saw your question above
04:40
:D
let's use matrix
a_n = 12a_n-1 -27 a_n-2 +256 n for n>=2
a_0 = 38 , a_1 = -62
i found a solution for the case when i let n = 0
-88/3 9^n + 202 /3 * 3^n
oh wow, I didn't see the n
that one agrees on a_0 and a_1
I can't use matrix then
04:43
oh sory for typing this way , i cant do better
varsagot
that's the wrong phrase isn't it
inga problem
04:44
now you got it :D
tack
i calculated some value , a_2 = -1258
a_3 = -12654
let's solve a simpler problem first: a_n = 2a_(n-1) + n, a_0 = 0
@KasmirKhaan you can't let n=0
it was given
where did you get that ?
a_n -12 a_(n-1) +27 a_ (n-2) = 0
that is when n = 0
but i found solution that agrees with the given values of n_0 and n_1
when n=0, we have a_0 - 12a_-1 + 27a_-2 = 0
you can't just substitute one n without substituting other n
04:49
oh yes
-88/3 9^n + 202 /3 * 3^n
but that expression is correct
when n = 0 , a_n = 38
when n =1 , a_1 = -62
Guys
please just put $$ around your expression to make it pretty and readable. $n_1$ instead of n_1
@HarnoorLal we can read it without latex
sorry i did not learn yet how to use latex
I will focus on summer to learn it , now i have alot of courses
@KasmirKhaan it would fail for n >= 2
yes i know but i got the homogenous solution from it
a_n = homogenous solution + particular solution
04:52
I don't know this anyway
ursakta mig
hehe its okay
if you have other way its fine too
talar du endast ingleska och svenska?
some french and arabic too
how about you ?
some french and spanish and limited german
nice :D
04:55
I suppose german makes swedish easier, but I'm trying to learn it now
what is your native language?
cantonese :p
nice :D
you got the hardest one so the rest would be easy
lol
haha :D
04:57
I kind of like how Swedish does not conjugate for persons
unlike French and Spanish and German
yes french is the hardest on that matter
I agree
Can wolfram alpha solve such recursive eqations?
I really would like to know the answer
but grrrrrr so far i get many answers that none of them seem right
yes
a(n) = 16 n + 14 3^n - 18 9^n + 42
hmm
where did the homogenious solution go ?
=p
or wait might be other way to solve that =p
@DHMO thanks for help again ! :D can you send me the window where you can plug expressions for recusive functions on wolfram alpha ? and intial conditions? :D
05:06
I just typed "a_n = 12a_n-1 -27 a_n-2 +256 n, a_0=38, a_1=-62"
hi
@Adeek god dag
Oh okay , i really should learn how to use those things :D @DHMO
@DHMO Hey, you there? I need some help with inclusion exclusion here! I was trying to prove the inclusion exclusion formula for when 6 different objects (say a,b,c,d,e,f) are to be distributed in 3 different boxes (say X,Y,Z). So to find the number of ways in which each box gets atleast 1 object I tried like: (3^6 (total number of ways) - 3 (they all go to one box) - 3C2 (2^6-1^6)) (they all go to exactly 2 out of 3 boxes). However, I seem to be getting a wrong answer. Can you spot the mistake?
@2017 the complement of "each box gets at least 1 object" is not "they all go to one box"
05:11
@DHMO I excluded the case when they go to exactly two boxes also
3C2 (2^6-1^6)
oh ok
Is that correct?
it should be 3C2 (2^6 - (2C1)(1^6))
@DHMO Oh oh right! I forgot that 2 :-P
Thank you :-)
no problem
05:13
How are you btw?
School going on?
quite busy
oh, exam season?
ya
mine too :-) All the best for your exams!
thanks
05:14
ttyl then :-)
@DHMO Good luck on your exams!
tack sa mycket
05:41
[Chemistry] The DFT geometry optimisation is not converging. Need to try again using another integration grid
05:57
@Secret did you see my answer to your topology question?
The extended real line one, or something earlier?
the former
I am not sure how that will help. Say even if we had the harmonic series to converge to infinity in $\mathbb{R}^*$ which can be mapped to $0$ to stay in $\mathbb{R}$ that seemed to be still far from solving the original problem unless we can find some mophism that maps that 0 uniquely back to whatever the value of that series sum is
oh I didn't answer your second question
I only answered your first question
right...
One of the interesting thing about the harmonic series is that according to my professors, it is kinda a "borderline" case where are series can go from convergent to divergent
06:04
indeed
For example, one of my professors have shown that a variation of a p series, if p>1, no matter how small that is, it will converge. There's even one series where you only change one term in the harmonic series and it will converge
@DHMO what is dog dag ?
god dag ?
ignore it
it kinda reminds me of emergence that occured in statistical phenomenon, and also chaos theory. It seems the value of series is very sensitive to its components and their ordering
but I still don't quite understand how exactly that work, similar to integrals
I think it is safe to say that I don't really understand nonlocal maps
06:30
@Secret but 1,1/2,1/4,1/8,... won't converge in my topology lol
Are the neightbourhoods of any point in the standard topology of the extened reals has the form of unions of open intervals?
I believe so
except that [infty,infty] is also an open set @Secret
Then I don't see why that series cannot converge to 0 since at some point, the Nth term of the dynadic fraction sequence will be within any neighborhood of 0
oh, we are referring to different topologies
06:47
let's think about a topology on R where every monotone sequence converges to one limit
oh, easy enough, just the discrete topology with {0} removed, so every sequence converges to 0
let's add a restriction that there must be at least two sequences converging each to a different limit
07:01
@AlessandroCodenotti buongiorno
do you have any idea?
can we make every sequence converge to one limit?
Yes, in the trivial topology
I mean, only one limit
I gave a topology above where every sequence converges to 0, but I added another restriction now
What about constant sequences? I doubt it
07:04
oh, that's a good point
so what should I do?
it's noteworthy that there are only as many sequences as the continuum
That shouldn't be possible
why not?
If you want a topology in which every sequences has a unique limit just pick 2 different constant ones
I don't understand
A constant sequence always converges to its value (plus possibly other stuff too if the topology is non Hausdorff)
07:14
I mean, what do you do after picking 2 different constant sequences?
They both converge to their own constant
so I am not seeing any contradiction
Didn't you want all sequences converging to the same limit?
oh, my question was misunderstood
I'm looking for a topology in which every sequence has exactly one limit
Any Hausdorff one will do then
@AlessandroCodenotti not all sequences have limit
0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,...
Every sequence alternating between $x$ and $y$ won't converge if they are separated by open nbhds
So you should fall into the trivial topology case again
07:19
that doesn't satisfy "exactly" one limit
I know, so it shouldn't be possible
31 mins ago, by DHMO
oh, easy enough, just the discrete topology with {0} removed, so every sequence converges to 0
This works for all sequences except the eventually constant ones
so 0,1,0,1,... converges to 0 here
Eventually constan sequences do converge to 0, but to another value as well
I know
I just mean I gave an example that almost works
so how can you be so certain that it will never work
how many possible topologies are there?
I proved that it is between 2^R and 2^(2^R), but which one is it?
morning
07:25
@BalarkaSen hi
do you have any idea?
9 mins ago, by DHMO
I'm looking for a topology in which every sequence has exactly one limit
@DHMO the latter, but I can't prove it. The proof I've seen involves some ultrafilters stuff
Hi @Balarka
@DHMO As in, all the sequences converge to a single point?
@BalarkaSen yes
the point can be different for different sequences
That seems contradictory to your "yes" :P
misunderstandings
the English language is inadequate to convey mathematical ideas
let's all learn Lojban :p
07:32
No. If you want your question answered state it precisely. I don't care much about it otherwise.
Hi @Alessandro
@BalarkaSen I am looking for a topology in which there is exactly one limit for every sequence
Is the notion of "minimal open set" make sense in topology. That is, a "minimal open set $S$ at a point $x$" will be defined as a open set containing $x$ such that every neighbourhood of $x$ must contain $S$?
@Secret the intersection of all the neighbourhoods might as well be $x$ itself
@DHMO I am saying, does that mean "$\exists$ $p \in X$ $\forall$ sequences converge to $p$ in $X$", or what?
@BalarkaSen that means, $\forall$ sequences $\exists$ p: the sequence converges to p
07:36
So just that every sequence converges?
@DHMO ah I see, and the problem is that a singleton is not necessary open in some given topology
@BalarkaSen to exactly one limit
i.e. something like Hausdorf
Oh, so it can't converge to two things at once? Gotcha.
I was going to give the Sierpinsky two point space as example.
Hm.
oh and ideally the topology is on R
but you can give me anything else
Suppose you take two points x, y from your space. {x, y} either inherits the discrete topology or the Sierpinsky topology, right? If the former x, y, x, y, x, y, converges to nothing so you're out. In the latter x, x, x, x, ... converge to x and y at once so you're out too. Doesn't that mean that can't happen?
07:39
so we need to consider topologies on other sets :p
How can one have a neighborhood U of x that contains all points in a set, and not ending up having U being a neighbourhood of any other points that is not x?
they can converge to values besides x and y for all intends and purposes @BalarkaSen
That is like as if $\in$ becomes a partial relation
@Secret depends on definition of neighbourhood
some doesn't need neighbourhood to be open
@DHMO Sorry, what? I mean take a two point subspace of your space - you can either construct a sequence which converges to nothing or construct a sequence which converges to two limits. That contradicts "every sequence converge to a unique limit", right?
07:41
No, the issue is that the whole set is always a neighborhood of all its points
and that is enough to make constant sequences converge to something beyond the intended limit
@BalarkaSen they can converge to other values
Ah, outside. Fair.
@Secret [0,1] is a neighbourhood of 0.5 but not of 1
in some definitions
If x, y, x, y, x, y does converge to something (say z) wouldn't it also converge to x and y? That means any nbhd of z contains x and y both, I mean.
another question is that is it possible to have a topology where a constant sequence x,x,x,x,x,x, .... converge to anything but never x?
07:45
@Secret No, it always ever converges to x. It can converge to stuff aside from x (Sierpinsky two-space)
i.e., have multiple limits
all neighbourhoods of z contains x and y. some neighbourhoods of x do not contain y. some neighbourhoods of y do not contain x. problem? @BalarkaSen
@Secret all neighbourhoods of x must contain all values in the sequence, so x must be a limit
ah ok
@DHMO Why're the next two sentences relevant? If my sequences converge to z they also converge to x and y, correct?
@BalarkaSen i just explained why it is not correct
@BalarkaSen in the "discrete topology where {0} is not an open set", the sequence (1,2,1,2,...) converges to 0 but not 1 or 2
So {0, 1} and {0, 2} are open?
Just not {0}
07:51
not really
Define your topology.
wait
is the only open set containing {0} in that topology the whole set?
Then 1, 2, 1, 2, ... can never converge to 0.
Surely there's some other topology we are talking about.
@BalarkaSen the basis is every singleton except {0}
@BalarkaSen what?
I'm starting to think that this is not a valid basis
07:52
@DHMO What's a neighborhood of 0?
ok so that means the smallest open set that contain each point x are the corresponding singletons {x}, but the smallest open set that contain {0} is the whole set
Yes, it is invalid as said.
@BalarkaSen the whole set?
@BalarkaSen why not?
it's the excluded-point topology
But I guess you're right that my alternating sequence argument wasn't right. Every nbhd of x need not contain z (nor y), so the sequence won't converge to x actually.
@DHMO Ah, then that would indeed converge to 0.
Hey guys
07:56
@BalarkaSen what did you misunderstand?
I didn't understand the topology. I do now.
@DHMO actually wait a sec, I think that notion might be valid. This is because arbitrary intersections of open sets is not necessary open. Since the neighbourhood of x by definition must contain x, and if we use the open neighbourhood convention, then it should be possible to always find the smallest open set that contains x, such that all other neightbourhoods of x must contain it
These opens sets for each point, will then play the role of $\epsilon-$ open balls in any general topology
@Secret what's the smallest open set containing 0?
@DHMO So the problem with this is constant sequences converge to two limits, just like Sierpinsky.
I know
07:59
@DHMO That will be the whole set in your topology, since no union of any open set can contain {0} unless it contains {0}. but in that topology the only open set that contains {0} is the whole set
whereas for all other points, singletons contains itself
i mean in the usual topology
@BalarkaSen the excluded point topology is just a proof of concept
@DHMO If x, y, x, y, x, y ... converges to z consider x, z, x, z, x, z, ... - that converges to both z and x in general, doesn't it?
@DHMO In the usual topology, it will be the set of open intervals (a,b) where a<0<b. The point is that we can set a and b arbitrarily small, and it will still be contained by all other neighbourhoods of 0 as long a,b is small enough
@BalarkaSen not every nbhd of x must contain z
@Secret "arbitrarily small" is garbage
infinitesimal doesn't exist
every epsilon is a real number
@BalarkaSen consider the same example in the same topology
Yeah, I am not sure why I thought that. It's just the Sierpinsky example.
08:03
(Sometimes I really don't like that the rationals are not well ordered in the usual ordering, otherwise this would have been much easier)
@Secret then consider the topology on omega_1
what is the smallest open set containing omega?
So it can only happen if no singleton in your space is open. If it is you can play this game to get a Sierpinsky space containing that as it's "1" and then come up with a bad sequence.
i dont understand. what would happen if {0} is open?
Agh, yes, while $\omega_1$ is well ordered, $\omega$ is a limit ordinal thus it has no prececessors thus I cannot find a unique a such that $(a,\omega +1)$ contains $\omega$
correct
so are we convinced that "minimal open set" is garbage?
08:07
@DHMO In your topology?
fine, in that case, I don't really know what I have been using in my reasoning when we do that left order topology with you a few weeks ago in figuring out convergence
@BalarkaSen in any topology
you said no singleton can be open
@Secret is it few weeks ago?
"minimal open set" isn't garbage in some topologies
@DHMO If {0} is open pick 1. {0, 1} is either discrete or Sierpinsky. Cross the latter. If discrete, say 0, 1, 0, 1, ... converges to x \neq 0, 1. So any nbhd of x contains 0. {0, x} is then either discrete or Sierpinsky. But it can't be discrete because any nbhd of x contains 0 - so it's Sierpinsky. That means 0, 0, 0, .... converges to both 0 and x.
@DHMO Well, you know the hyperreals... They're like...
@DHMO But it is for the standard topology, since the reals are not well ordered thus you cannot find (a,b) where a,b, arbitrarily close to c
08:12
@Secret are we talking about the standard topology or the left-order topology?
which makes me wonder (barring that I miss out the oscillating sequences), why does this argument work
Mar 7 at 6:39, by Secret
@DHMO. I think there is no difference in the convergence behaviour of the sequence in the left order topology vs usual topology. This is because given any $s_N$, and for any given point $x$, in the usual topology $s_N \in (a,b)$ where $a,b$ is arbitrary close to x, and in the left order topology, $s_N \in (-\infty,c)$ where $c$ is arbitrarily close to $x$. Both type of neighborhoods are contained in any nonempty open sets of their respective topology,
therefore if a sequence converges to $x$ in the usual topology, it must also be in the left order topology
that's is the intuition I based this "minimal open set" idea from
(NB, the wrong conclusion above is because I miss out the oscillating sequences, which converges in the left order topology to many limits)
@BalarkaSen nice.
So at least we know any potential counterexample can't have singleton open sets.
This is so darn confusing.
That's why I prefer spaces which are less painful to the eye.
you mean to the brain?
@BalarkaSen Like wedges of Hawaiian cones :P
08:16
DHMO: The idea is that if that concept works, then for any topological space, I can find the open set (or a "reasonable set of them") for each point x such that all neighbourhoods of x must contain them, thus the problem of whether some given sequence will converge to some point x will be completely determined by the size of these open sets for each point
Eye man. Topology is eye.
@Alessandro Beautiful space
but since the concept does now work, I am going to figure out how to deal with them
It can be seen, unlike some non-T0 garbage
@BalarkaSen there are 2^2^2^Z possible topologies on R, yet we can only define Z topologies. There are many many many topologies that one can never define
True. Lots of restrictions given by the axioms.
08:19
Take the sierpinski space as an example
I think of Sierpinsky as [0, 1) mod (0, 1), which is a little easier to visualize
@BalarkaSen that is nice
but did you mean (0,1] mod (0,1)?
Yeah, thanks.
Those are homeomorphic anyway.
but we prefer to map 1 to 1
08:22
This set has only two points, thus my idea works. the smallest open set containing 0 is {0} but the smallest open set containing 1 is {0,1}. Therefore, a sequence can only converge to 0 if it is eventually 0, but a sequence can always converge to 1 because 0,1 \in {0,1}

The issue, as pointed out by DHMO, is that this idea don't work for arbitrarily topological space
@DHMO So, now, smallest open sets you can have are doubletons. None of them can be Sierpinsky too. So let's say choose {0, 1} - we know 0, 1, 0, 1, ... converges to x. Consider {0, 1, x}. Any nbhd of x contains 0 and 1, so an nbhd of x looks like the whole space here - excluded point topology on the discrete set with 3 points. Hmm.
@BalarkaSen if (x,y,...) converges to x, then (y,y,...) converges to both x and y. If it converges to z instead, then (x,x,...) converges to both x and z. Therefore, such a space is impossible.
I'm not sure why you never made that step
@DHMO Is the first sequence x, y, x, y, x, y, ... ?
yes
Oh, you're just claiming it's not sierpinsky in the first two sentences. OK
@DHMO Oh, duh, yeah. {x} is open in {x, z} so it is Sierpinsky.
08:29
I'm just doing it case by case
Yeah, it was just the same argument. I assumed more than what is needed.
Good call.
You don't need that {x} is open in the whole space, just that it's open in that two-point space which is, like, definition of subspace top.
So we're happy.
yes
thanks for providing the main argument
Actually, while I knew the definition of convergence, how can I check ALL the neighbourhoods of a given point x to ensure that some given sequence S converge to x given there is no minimal open set
No problem. The thanks goes mutual.
08:33
@Secret use the basis
11
Q: does every topology have a basis?

Vien NguyenThis might be a silly question, but i was wondering, is there any topology that cannot be generated by a basis? if not, given a topology, is there a reliable way of figuring out a basis for it? it probably matters if the set $X$ the topology is on is countable or not, right? Would it matter if th...

Ouch
There are topologies where the only basis is itself
@Alessandro So, what's new?
@Secret you can't; that's why i deleted it
Agh..., I will worry about this convergence problem later, better get back to see how my DFT calculation goes
@DHMO Is there any online site where we can plot parametric equations like $x=A\sin(wt)$ and $y=A\sin(wt+\phi)$ which varies with time. I'm trying to visualize Lissajou's figures. Can desmos do it somehow ? Or anything else?
08:42
yes
how?
desmos?
yes desmos
okay lemme check
how should I type the equations?
like x=Asin... and y=Asin...
?
yes
It is showing the two graphs separately...
Not the superposition
:/
08:45
(sin t, cos t)
[List of maths that I am aware I suck in]
1. Topology
2. Infinite series
3. Special functions
4. Number theory
5. Analysis
6. Combinitorics
7. Statistics and probability theory
Anything else you can assume I am not aware I suck in, but it might be true that I suck in it
and... to make matter worse:
It seems my memory on most physical chemistry stuff have decayed a lot
@DHMO Ah, it is working now
Thanks a lot :-)
@Secret list the areas of math which you are aware that you do not suck at
Based on user response, probably linear algebra
(however I still get the advanced stuff wrong sometimes)
can you prove that "for a 3x3 matrix where each row, column, and diagonal sum to N, its determinant is divisible by 3N"?

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