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06:00
Flips sheet over
@user400188 I suspect you have the axiom of powerset with you, not the definition
I forgot there was a difference again
@user400188 The definition of power set tells you what the power set is
The axiom of power set declares the existence of such a set
Couldnt we just take the axiom; then write $A\subseteq B \equiv$ Axiom ?
+ for any set
06:03
@user400188 ??
oh I need equiv in that subset symbol
No you can't
The axiom of power set states that "for any set X, its power set exists"
ah i see the distinction now
What is your question @user400188 ?
I think I will have a go at defining it now
@ShinKim DHMO answered it for me; but If you like I could repost a full version here.
I took the time to edit it earlier to make it neat. It should read well
06:07
@user400188 Can you complete this statement? $Y = \mathscr P(X) \equiv \cdots$
I'm attempting it now. There are some things I need to think about first to answer it though.
@user400188 and what are those things?
@user400188 and are you convinced that $1+1=2$ is not the same as $1+1 \iff 2$?
Only by the definition of = we had in the Axiom of extension.
which was = is defined as $\forall Y(A\in Y \leftrightarrow B\in Y)$
No, axioms do not define equality.
The axiom did not; but I looked up the definition of = on another site
the equals was defined that way to make the axiom readable
06:11
@user400188 so you're still not convinced that objects do not have truth value
Yeah sorry I am not..
but I can think of them as not having one so I can continue as if I belive it is true
@user400188 can you show me an object that has a truth value?
a statement is itself an object actually.
Fair enough
but why isn't an object a statement?
06:13
every sequence of symbols without semantics has no truth value.
@user400188 not all objects are statements
$\{\}$ is not a statement
Guys , Why does $|\frac{G}{HP}| divide |\frac{G}{P}|$ ,where $P$ is a Sylow p subgroup of $G$ and $H$ is normal in $G$ ?
@user400188 are you convinced that $\{\}$ does not have a truth value?
I'm convinced that we have not assinged one to it yet. But I fear that we could easily do so and nothing would go wrong or break in the math.
@ShinKim how can you convince him that $\{\}$ does not have a truth value?
06:19
Well, I would say $\{\}$ is not a logical statement.
@ShinKim I've tried saying this
Oh, you already did.
Well,, I'm not sure.
@ShinKim Please follow this cringey conversation
I still feel embarrassed about that...
@BAYMAX If $A\ge B\ge C$ (groups) then $[A:B]$ divides $[A:C]$. In fact, there is a $[B:C]$-to-$1$ map between coset spaces $A/C\to A/B$ given by $aC\mapsto aB$.
06:22
@user400188 so are you convinced now?
i will think of objects not having truth values becuase they are defined that way.
Thats the best I can do
Please don't be embarrassed @user400188 :))
Ok that clears ,its nice @arctictern
Anyway: in responce to the things I was thining about; I was pretty sure that I would need something along the lines of:

There exists (a thing) such that (a thing) is in X (where X is a set). Howver I need to write that in such a way that putting the thing in X puts a piece of the set in X and not a single element.
@user400188 what?
06:27
You asked earlier what I thought I would need to define the powerset.
I know what I asked you
what is a power set?
Simply put, predicates are like atoms of logical language and by connecting those predicates you get a statement.
suppose we have a set. THe powerset of it would be a set for which all its elements are in the first set. However it is not a requirement that all the elements in the first are in the second.

Which would read:
$P(X)\equiv \exists X \forall Z [Z\in X]$
@user400188 wrong
A predicate is a statement too btw.
It isn't a valid formula, @user400188
06:32
The only definition of valid I know is that in every case where the antecedant is true; the consequent must also be true.
Huh?
He didn't say valid argument, he said valid formula.
@user400188 $\mathscr P(X)$ is an object
$\exists X \forall Z [Z \in X]$ is a statement
In that case I'm not sure how to write them. What is meant by valid formula? @ShinKim @JackDon
@DHMO Sorry About missing hte distinction just then.
Do you mean for me to write a definition that does not inlcude statements?
It means that the syntax of the formula is wrong.
06:34
@user400188 No I don't, and I said that your definition is wrong
before you included the formula
Do I need the Y= at the start?
Both syntax and the definition is wrong, @user400188.
Define it via topos theory.
(/s)
What is wrong with the syntax in this case?
@user400188 "There is an X such that for all Z, Z in X" is what your formula is saying
06:37
That was was I was trying to produce
that is wrong
As @DHMO have already mentioned, you can't connect an object and a statement with logical connective.
I meant that there is a set X; such that there is another set Y in which every element in Y is also in X (where the elemts in Y are labled z)
@user400188 "every element in Z is also in X" is not "Z in X"
and I said that it is wrong already
YOUR STATEMENT "THe powerset of it would be a set for which all its elements are in the first set." IS WRONG OK?
May I ask you to define the power set of a set, @user400188 ?
06:40
That was the original question which I seem to be getting wrong all the time.
indeed
Maybe give an example, give us the power set of $\{1,2,3\}$
What about {1,2}?
A subset of it would be {1,2}
I just considered that maybe the powerset was the list of all subsets
so I hesitated in that last comment
@user400188 indeed
06:42
Where these all live in?
@user400188 so can you define power set now?
I'll probaly make the same mistake of using a statement and an object in the same line.
the list -> the set, to be precise.
They live in a set, so the set of all subsets, and don't forget the emptyset.
(And the subset doesn't need to be proper)
@user400188 then don't make it
06:43
Can you just write out $P(\{1,2\})$ so I can see that you are 100%
{{1},{2},{1,2}}
@user400188 wrong
I included brakcets I didnt need?
no
06:44
Worse
The brackets were good
"and don't forget the emptyset."
I haven't come across the empty set yet in math; so I'm not really sure hwo to write it or what its properties are (appart from beeing in every set)
Just write $\{\{\},\{1\},\{2\},\{1,2\}\}$ then for the time being
@user400188 THE EMPTY SET IS NOT IN EVERY SET
And that's the last time you make the mistake of confusing "in" with "subset"
Where $\{\}=\emptyset$
so while the empty set is not "in" every set. It is a subset of them?
06:48
correct
Are there powersets of powersets?
@user400188 yes
the axiom of power set declares it
Am I'm still waiting for your defintion
P(P(P(P(P(P(P(X)))))))
@user400188 Can you write "Every set has a power set" using symbols? You're allowed to use the symbol $\mathscr P$ to denote power set.
where S is a set: $\forall S \exists \mathscr (P (S))$
oh the script disappeared
06:52
still wrong
$\exists$ can only be used for variables
adding parentheses don't help
I know I just did that for completeness
so how can you correct it?
I need to figure out a way to assert the existance of the powerset without using a symbol that refers to variables.
@user400188 and?
I'm tempted to write $\forall S (\mathscr P (S))$
07:00
even worse
$\mathscr P(S)$ is not a statement
In "$\forall S: \cdots$", $\cdots$ must be a statement
But to be honest I was looking up the definition of a statement in wikipedia
and then?
@user400188 How would you write "the power set of $\{\}$ exists"?
I dont have a concept of "every" or "exists" outside of the for all and exists symbol. So I am stumped on how to write these things.
@user400188 Hint: "there exists a Y such that Y is the power set of $\{\}$"
$\exists Y: Y=\mathscr P (\{\})$
I feel as if I am missusing the sybols again
07:07
@user400188 why?
becuase I have the exist sysmbol in the same line as $\mathscr P ()$ which is not a statement.
of course statements contain objects that are not statements
but $Y = \mathscr P(\{\})$ is a statement
@user400188 correct
So was that the correct answer? If so would the definition of the power set be:
Powerset$=[\exists Y : Y=\mathscr P(\{\})]$ ?
@user400188 you can't equate an object with a statement
you are saying that "Power set is equal to the fact that the power set of {} exists"
which is nonsense to me
and should also be nonsense to you
I must ask; when we write: $\exists Y (Y)$ are we are not asserting the existance of an object here; but a statement?
07:14
You are using a statement to assert the existence of an object
but the object is not equal to the assertion
you can't say "the power set of {} is the assertion that the power set of {} exists"
Sorry I noticed that the first part was wrong after I posted but I wanted to know if the formate was right. If the P() part was a statement that defined the properties of the powerset; would it be correct?
what do you mean?
Hi there.
appart from the P() part; is the syntax correct for defining something?
Say I had a statement that would only be true for a set which contained all the subsets of some other set. If I substituted that statement for P(); would the rest of the syntax be correct for defining the powerset?
@user400188 what the hell is P()?
07:19
$\mathscr P()$
Sorry I'm still getting used to the latex for it
what the hell is $\mathscr P()$?
the powerset of something. I suppose I should write $\mathscr P(x)$ I just didnt want to use x beucase I thought i might run out of symbols. In the future this is what i will use.
@user400188 You would say that $Y = \mathscr P(X) \equiv \cdots$
A statement relates two objects
I have a question about induction: Generally, we prove some property for $n = 1$, then we take as hypothesis that it holds for some $n$ (for example, $a(n) = b(n)$ Eq1.). And finally we want to prove the same property holds for $n+1$ (for example, $a(n+1) = b(n+1)$ Eq2). My question is: It is rigorous use the Eq2? For example, we could say $a(n)-a(n+1) = b(n) - b(n+1)$.
I don't think this is rigorous, since, actually, we don't even know what relation there is between $a(n+1) = b(n+1)$. It shouldn't be there an $=$, it should be something like $a(n+1) \square b(n+1)$.
What do you think guys?
@Topologicalife you can use equivalence
07:24
What do you mean?
for example, if you want to prove 1+1=2, just as an example
$\equiv$?
normally, you cannot start with the statement you are trying to prove
but if you use equivalence, you can start with the statement you are trying to prove
by saying $(1+1=2) \iff (1+1-1 = 2-1) \iff (1 = 1) \iff \top$
But actually we don't know what type of relation there is between the sides of the $n+1$ case.
@Topologicalife you can prove that $a(n)-a(n+1) = b(n)-b(n+1)$
07:26
So we can not say $a(n+1) = b(n+1)$.
and then prove that it is equivalent to $a(n+1) = b(n+1)$
@Topologicalife as long as they are equivalent
Yeah.
That's okay.
you can say that:
$a(n+1) = b(n+1)$
$\iff \cdots$
$\iff \cdots$
$\iff \cdots$
which is evidently true.
But it is kinda different of asumming the case $n+1$ is true and then use it as I said.
Yeah.
@user400188 have you given up?
07:31
I'm still trying to figure out how to write a definition wthout using a statement in the same line as an object.

I dont know how its possible.
@user400188 Start with "The power set of X is a set Y such that <insert statement containing X and Y>"
Hello
hi
would that read $\mathscr P (X)=Y:$<insert statement containing X and Y> ?
@DHMO
it seems that we would be anding our object with the statement in the above
I have made another attempt with the following. I have spotted a problem with my attempt but so far I am not sure how to fix it:
$\mathscr P(X)=Y: (Y\leftrightarrow \forall a(a\subseteq X))$

The problem with it is that writing $\forall a(a\subseteq X)$ will not produce a set containing all the subsets.(I think it will instead produce the same set we started with (if the syntax here is even allowed)).
@DHMO
I belive I can fix this problem now by addopting the syntax from the Axiom. If I instead write:
$\mathscr P(X)=Y:\forall a(a\in Y\leftrightarrow (a\subseteq X))$
I will ensure that the elements of Y are subsets of X
07:58
@user400188 you replace ":" with "$\equiv$"
@user400188 you do not "and" an object and a statement
@user400188 you cannot connect an object (Y) and a statement ($\forall a[a \subseteq X]$) with $\iff$
@user400188 you cheated in the end, but do you understand?
I figured out the first part myself; but yes I had to cheat in the end.
I understand the formulation of the final answer; but there are some things in your last cpmment that I dont
First ill will explain why the answer works; then I will ask about your comments.
The difference between P(X)=Y≡(Y≡∀a(a⊆X)) and P(X)=Y≡∀a(a∈Y≡(a⊆X)) is that in the first one; the "∀a(a⊆X)" part will be true for a set that contains only the elements of X. this is not what we want beucase the intent is to create something that is only true for the power set of X
in the second one: we have created a set Y that has elements which are subsets of X. This is true for all a so the set will contain all the subsets
Why is it 'bound variable', not 'bounded variable' in mathematical logic?
I have always taken it as the variable somehow binding itself; while a bounded one would be bound by some external factor. But I don't have a hard definition of bound variable and I have avoid questions that use the term on SE.
@DHMO Does my explanation of why it works make sense?
@ShinKim bind~bound, bound~bounded
bounded means having boundary
@user400188 The thing about "Y≡∀a(a⊆X)" is that Y is an object that does not have a truth value
it says "Y is equivalent to the statement that for all a, a is a subset of X"
@DHMO
That was one of the questions I was meaning to ask about your comments: What is the definition of $\equiv$? I have one for $\iff$ which is $A\iff B$ is $AB \lor (\lnot A)(\lnot B)$ but I dont have one for $\equiv$.

I think if I did I would be able to understand the difference between objects and statements.
08:17
@DHMO What does it mean to say something is optically active? The definition I have is rather vague.
Eg, why's the (+)-tartaric acid optically active whereas the meso-tartaric acid isn't? What's the fundamental difference?
@BalarkaSen its mirror image is superimposable on the original thing -> optically inactive
@user400188 $\equiv$ just means $\iff$ here
Ah, I see
@DHMO If $\equiv$ means $\iff$ why can we not connect an object with a statement using it? But we can using $\equiv$ ?
@user400189 an object doesn't have a truth value
By superimposition you of course mean superimposable through orientation-preserving rigid motions in R^3, right? (rotation/translation)
08:24
So does the $\equiv$ sign have another property in that it lets us connect objects to statements? In this way is it different to $\iff$ ?
@BalarkaSen and that's what happens when a topologist studies chemistry
but yes
lol. Gotcha, thanks.
I just like to speak my own language.
@user400188 I SAID, YOU CANNOT CONNECT OBJECTS USING $\equiv$
Suppose $\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \frac {B_n} {n!} \cdot z^n$ is a convergent power series whose pointwise limit is $f(z) = 1$ when $z = 0$ and $f(z) = \frac {z} {e^z - 1}$ when $z \ne 0$. How do you show that the radius of convergence is $2 \pi$?
@HarryEvans |e^z| < 1
08:31
If we cant do that; what are we doing when we write:
$\mathscr P(X)=Y\equiv \forall a(a\in Y\equiv (a\subseteq X))$
$\mathscr P(x)$ is an object, and the rightmost side is a statement. Have we not connected them just now using it?
@DHMO, can we use Hadamard's Formula or the Ratio Test to prove it? Or do we show divergence outside of $|z| < 2 \pi$?
@HarryEvans no idea
@user400188 I see where the confusion stems from
$[\mathscr P(X) = Y] \equiv [\forall a[(a \in Y) \iff (a \subseteq X)]$
Ah now I see it. $\mathscr P(X)$ is an object; $Y$ is an object. $\mathscr P(X)=Y$ is a statement, and $[\mathscr P(X)=Y]\equiv A$ is a statement. In this we never connect objects to statements. Just object to object and statement to statement.
correct
08:43
@user400188 do you understand the definition?
I think I do now. And I also think I finaly understand the distinction between objects and statements.
@user400188 try to write "for every set X and Y, their union exists"
I have an answer without objects in it so I think it is incomplete for now. But The stataement part of the answer would look like:
$\forall X\forall Y(\exists Z[(X\cup Y)\leftrightarrow Z])$

Somewhere before or after that I belive I need to make a statement that contains objects and set that statement to equal what I just wrote.
@user400188 you cannot use $\iff$ to connect objects
I havent used an object yet. Although i did think that when wrote it Z would look like an object
08:51
variables are all objects
Really? In propositional logic we have statements that are represented by a single letter. And those statements can be continualy broken down until we arrive at atomic ones.
not with variables
If in set theory a single letter is regarded as a variable (which is an object) then I have been doing things wrong for quite some time now.
not just in set theory
have you ever used $\forall$ in logic? @user400188
I have used it in excerscises but I have never answered a question on SE that involved it. This is becuase I have been afraid of using anything that I dont understand.
I have looked at it definition on wikipedia but it seems to define it through examples
and from the examples all I can gather is it takes a bunch of statements: Then AND's them togther. In this way the truth value of a statement containing $\forall$ will only be true when all the statements it AND's togther are true.
09:00
aren't the variables that follow $\forall$ objects?
Until now I did not know what an object was. Hence my confusion
Objects wont have a truth value so the for all thing wont and together statements with truth values.
So my previous definition must have been wrong
@user400188 can you write anything involving $\forall$ that you meet when learning logic?
After what we have discused I don't belive I can write anything (althogh I did before). I know some of the rules for for all and can find logical equivilances for it. but thats it.
so can you correct your answer?
I feel like i'm cheating again becuase now I have written that first half; it looks very similar to the axiom of pairing
09:08
@user400188 just write it
don't be so confident
hang on; would not X∪Y be an object? ${1,2}\cup {2,3}$ is ${1,2,3}$.
yes
if it is then I would be connecting two objects in my first answer
yes
so does that mean that the answer is correct?
09:13
no
@user400188 you cannot use $\iff$ to connect two objects
must I use =?
yes
In that case I will try $\forall X\forall Y(\exists Z[(X\cup Y)=Z])$
wonderful
now, can you do it without using $\cup$?
just to confirm: would it be correct to insead say :
$\forall X\forall Y(\exists Z[\forall H(([X\cup Y]\in H) \leftrightarrow (Z\in H))])$
?
oh part of it disipeared
one sec
that should be better
09:23
yes but I think you mean $\forall H[H \in X \cup Y \iff H \in Z]$
Yes that is what I meant. Did I get the brackets wrong?
no
you reversed the operands of $\in$
ah yes you are right.
Also to replace $\cup$. (I fear I have a fundamental misconception again) could I not just OR the two sets together?
that's the last time I say you cannot OR two sets together
you probably confused with $\{x | p(x)\} \cup \{x| q(x)\} = \{x | p(x) \lor q(x) \}$
Hello
09:27
I have not seen that before actualy. At least not in that notion (the | symbol is something I dont have a definition for)
Hi
How are you?
@user400188 Have you done any set theory before?
No I have not done any set theory before. The closest I have come to it is from paying attention to the sets attached to functions.
@Ramanujan I'm feeling ok; but Im kind of killing myself over how little I know / slow I learn at the moment.
then why are we doing formal set theory now @user400188
we should do informal set theory first!
I just happen to like the formal stuff to be honest. But from what I have seen so far jumping to the formal stuff first has been a terrible way to learn it.
09:32
A loan of 5100 $ has to be repaid in two equal installments in 2 years. if the interest is charged at the rate of 4 %
whatever floats your boat
Per annum, compounded annually
@user400188 so what are we doing now?
, find the amount of each installment
Thats a good question. Im not sure where to start informally.
09:34
@user400188 set!
is {{apple, orange}} and {apple, orange} equal?
Yes
from my prejudice of sets been constructed by OR'ing two objects or statements together. :/
no
oh sorry I missd the {{ at the start
are {apple, apple} and {apple} equal?
any good reference for the proof of this theorem "Let $H$ be a normal $p$ -subgroup of group $G$ ,then $H$ is contained into each Sylow $p$ subgroup of $G$",i could not find after googling ??
09:37
@DHMO
To me they appear to be
yes
in that first one by the way: one had two objects while the other had 1.
@user400188 {apple, orange} union {orange, banana} = ?
{apple, orange, banana}
no there is only one object
09:39
i mean the {{apple, orange}} and {apple, orange} example
{{apple, orange}} had one while {apple, orange} had two.
each set is a single object but
one contains two objects while the other contains 1
yes
of course the one that contained 1; had a set inside it which contained 2
@user400188 {apple, orange} intersect {orange, banana} = ?
{orange}
Good Morning :)
09:42
hi
Good morning Junlikon
P({apple, orange}) = ?
I'm not sure on that one.
try
P(x), where x is {apple, orange} ?
09:44
yes
i mean power set
oh. { {},{apple},{orange},{apple , orange} }
nice
can you prove that |A| = n => |P(A)| = 2^n?
does someone now the difference between $|Map_{surj}[(1,k),(1,n)]=n! \cdot \stirling{n}{k}|$ and $|Part_k(X)|= \stirling{n}{k}$? I know, the calculation is different. My problem is that I do not know in which task I have to use which one. For example, if I have 10 Students and make 3 Tutoriums where no one is empty, which to choose?
I need a 10 k user to do me a little favour.
By magnitude I'm sure you mean (how many elements are in the set?)
09:48
yes
we say cardinality
oh sorry - yes I need the cardinality of possibilities
I was talking to @user400188
oh, sorry again haha
@Secret Exercise: prove that $\forall X \forall Y: \exists A: \forall u: u \in A \equiv u \in X \land u \in Y$!
I know that the process of making the power set involves re-writing each element of the first: giving us n elements; followed by taking one element away from the original set and and writing it again; giving us n +1 elements. We do that step n times. And we do those n times n times to get each combination.
I'm just not sure how to write that out in a proof
09:55
@user400188 P({a,b,c})=?
{ {},{a,b,c},{a,b},{a,c},{b,c},{a},{b},{c} }
lookig at what I just did what I wrote previously is wrong
not even mentioning that I forgot the empty set
indeed it was wrong
we add the empty set, re-write the original set; then the remove one element n times and add those new sets. Then we remove 2 elements n times and add those.
so it seems with add n things n-1 times. Then add two things

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