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18:00
hey @TedShifrin
I'm suspecting this isn't just math stuff.
Hi Karim
Damn, well hopefully things will be better soon @Danu
just a quick question. Suppose that we have two vector spaces V and W and a vector space isomorphism $\alpha : V \rightarrow W$ does this induce a vector space isomorphism on the dual ?
I am trying to understand a specific theorem in a book.
You know how to figure this out, Karim.
I think I left my laptop in the states. That it I left it at security.
18:02
@MikeMiller That also sucks :\
Where are you now?
Cambridge
Oh oh, @MikeM. That is not cool.
Not getting as much writing done as I had hoped.
@MikeMiller D-:
@MikeMiller you passing through london anytime?
18:04
Good evening.
ah yess @TedShifrin sorry.
I did earlier. I'm going back on Sayurfay for a 9am flight.
I wanted to go to the Tate but it wasn't in the cards :(
Oh, you lost the Tate, too? :(
Hi chat
18:06
Hi Astyx
Hello @Astyx
Hey @Astyx
Hi @Astyx
Hi @Astyx
Hi @Astyx
18:08
Wow, I'm not used to being greeted that much !
Hi @Astyx
heya AndrewT
hi @Astyx
I think induction will show that the whole world just greeted Astyx.
Lol
18:08
Hellu @TedShifrin. How's life?
@TedShifrin I am glad I am taking this quadratic forms class. There is some missing understanding in my linear algebra.
I usually find that grad students don't know linear algebra nearly well enough.
Right in the feels :(
Yeah we didn't go over linear algebra very detailed in my undergrad.
I find your book helps a lot.
There's a good deal more to know than that. :)
18:11
linear algebra is very important. Universities should stress on that. I had only 2 linear algebra classes.
And there's the linear algebra @Mahmoud
That should be plenty.
>.> you guys see nothing
@TedShifrin first linear algebra was just calculation of matrices and second one just about change of basis and abstract vector spaces, but we didn't go in detail.
Yeah the way we used to do linear algebra here was not good
18:12
How do you spend a whole term on change of basis and not go into detail?
You should have learned inner product spaces and Jordan and rational canonical forms, Karim.
@TedShifrin People taking the class were not very strong aside from me and couple of students, so professor didn't cover too much.
Ah ... the hell with the syllabus and prerequisites :P
yeah ...
My current university is much better than my older one.
That's helpful
@TedShifrin where can I see those material what book ?
Linear algebra done right ?
18:14
We have a linear algebra module over a field
But yeah I'm happy we actually have a linear algebra class now in my place
Any linear algebra exercise today ?
badum tss
Try Friedberg, Insel, Spence ... or Artin's Algebra ... Didn't your graduate algebra course do decomposition of finitely generated modules over a PID or ED?
LOL, @Astyx.
@AliCaglayan I am quite excited I am reading currently Allufi chapter 0. I finished first two chapters with all of the problems. I can't wait to go to linear algebra chapter.
18:15
Astyx, do you know about minimal and characteristic polynomials yet?
At the end of next week I will
I know a little about them
The way it used to be done was like, second half of third quarter of calculus, about a week or two in analysis, second quarter of the algebra sequence (mixed in with ring theory, modules)
@TedShifrin We did stuff differently in my algebra class we covered basic representation theory, galois theory, and classification of groups
You should still have done modules, Karim. They're super important.
Especially for commutative algebra.
And representation theory
18:16
@TedShifrin We are doing modules in the commutative algebra class.
I doubt they'll do the classification of finitely generated modules; that doesn't fit with comm. alg.
I will cover it by myself when I meet it in allufi.
if they don't do it.
Read it in Artin first.
okay
18:18
@TedShifrin I am currently doing cool stuff in quadratic forms I am reading about hyperbolic space.
Hi @Semi
The way they define hyperbolic space is as follows
Is Artin the one that teaches both linear algebra and algebra?
Dummit and Foote has lots of stuff on Modules I think
Yes, @Daminark, in integrated fashion (unlike Herstein, et al.).
Sure, @Ali.
18:19
In my opinion allufi is better than Dummit.
Every graduate algebra book does.
That might've been the one I started with before Herstein
Artin >> Herstein.
Artin shows algebra in the context of mathematics, not in the context of algebra.
I remember I had an algebra book which started with matrices so that it could talk about matrix groups, and had a lot of linear. I ended up needing something more compact since I was in a rush, so I swapped to Herstein
Ah, that's good
@Astyx: Do you still want a linear algebra question?
18:21
@TedShifrin They define something called hyperbolic space as follows. Suppose V and $V^{}$ is vector space and its dual respectively. Define a bilinear form on $V \times V^{}$ as follows $((f,x),(g,y)) \mapsto f(y) + g(x)$.
@Ted Sure, but don't waste too much time for me
Then we call the space $(V \times V^{*}, \phi)$ an hyperbolic space.
where $\phi$ is the bilinear form defined above.
$$\huge\overbrace{\left(\ddot{\stackrel{\quad>}{\smile}}\right)}_{\begin{align}---‌​\quad\ \end{align}}$$
At some point soon I do intend to go through at least groups more carefully, first time around I was rushing to group actions so there are still a lot of holes. I know Herstein is missing Jordan-Holder which Laci said people should know before starting his class (along with Sylow)
@Astyx: This one is sort of interesting. So given an $m\times n$ matrix $A$, it of course represents a linear transformation $T\colon\Bbb R^n\to\Bbb R^n$. You know how to identify its row space and column space with the image of $T^*$ (transpose) and image of $T$ respectively.
So you get isomorphisms $\lambda\colon\text{row space}(A)\to\text{column space}(A)$ and $\mu\colon\text{column space}(A)\to\text{row space}(A)$ in an obvious way. When are these inverse functions?
18:23
$\Bbb R^m$ rather ?
Let $f(x)=\sin(x), \text{for all x}$, if we want to write $f(x)=\tan(x) \cos(x)$, do we have to add the restriction that $x\not=\pi/2+n\pi \; (n\in \Bbb Z)$ ?
Karim: That has absolutely nothing to do with differential geometry, though.
oh
Hyperbolic space normally refers to a complete, simply connected manifold of constant negative curvature.
what is this stuff then ?
18:25
I can't make sense of what you typed.
So I'll look for Artin as well. I've recently started looking at Aluffi and Lang, which seem good (though Lang is looking it's going to be a harsh read...)
Yeah, @Astyx, typo of course.
Langs algebra is like reading a dictionary sometimes
@ted This quadratic forms stuff to be honest is boring. I find commutative algebra more interesting.
@Mahmoud: Yes, those functions agree when they're both defined.
18:26
@TedShifrin Hopefully it will be more interesting in later chapters.
@Daminark: I think Lang is ok once you already know it all.
Algebra is boring without geometry.
Ah, so it might be better to first go through something else and then come back to it?
What have you done with quadratic forms so far?
@Daminark: I truly like Artin for reasons I explained. He has amazing stuff in there.
And good exercises.
18:30
Alright, I'll check it out
Hi @Ted
hi @Balarka
So why is $k[X]$ Notherian when $k$ is?
hilbert basis theorem
@AliCaglayan just basic definitions so far
and going soon to something called grothendieck group.
18:31
@Adeek thats why you find it boring probably
@AliCaglayan First chapter is just definition.
@BalarkaSen yes, so why does that hold then
Is there a name to this graphical representation of functions, and how can it ever be useful ?
See your f favorite algebra book.
18:33
is it not a short argument?
@Ali The proof is a tricky proof-by-contradiction argument using the degree.
@Mahmoud: It's a picture of a function as a mapping. You'll see that picture in general for mappings from one set to another.
Usefulness is debatable, but one of the most common proofs of the Cantor-Schröder-Bernstein theorem is easily visualized with a similar drawing
Here is my summary of the proof.
@TedShifrin Any example of it, helping to solve a problem, or give an intuition ?
18:36
I found a really cool reading material math.ucla.edu/~mikehill/Teaching/Math5651
I use diagrams to illustrate one-to-one, image, onto, etc., @Mahmoud. Not worth obsessing over.
Also pictures for things like the inverse and implicit function theorems later on.
@BalarkaSen ahh that is a nice proof
@TedShifrin Thanks $:)$
I think it is the same as the one in dummit and foote
I borrowed it from Eisenbud
18:38
"borrowed"? Are you returning it any time soon?
By conveniently forgetting it again, yeah
That proof is a good example of a proof that is easy to verify yet near impossible to produce.
@TedShifrin If 2 people have apples and swap, then they still have 2 apples. If they swap ideas, they each have 2 ideas.
I think I read that Hilbert's original proof was very long.
checked until 6627030000. no counter-example found...
18:47
@Ted I'm not sure I understood how $\lambda$ and $\mu$ are defined here
applying the linear maps $T$ and $T^*$, respectively. The point is you get an isomorphism when you restrict domain and range.
@TedShifrin Looking at the first problem in your integration exams (exam #3). Why do you want to give your students a heart-attack? I almost had one before realizing a second later that it's easy.
:P
I don't remember what you're talking about Balarka. But I think I had forewarned them numerous times (and they had numerous homeworks). This was a change the order problem, right?
It's integrating a horrid form along a horrid curve.
Oh. Sure. Totally prepared.
18:52
Ah, ok.
And why would the domain be the row space for $\lambda$ ? What ensures that the image of the row space is the collumn space and not a subspace of it ?
If you watch the video, you'll hear me berate them if they don't immediately recognize it.
Figure that out first, Astyx.
@TedShifrin here is a categorical way to think about the question I asked you before. Suppose we have an isomorphism $\alpha^{\star} : V^{\star} \rightarrow W^{\star}$, then this induce $alpha^{\star} : V^{\star} \rightarrow W^{\star}$ given by $\phi \mapsto \phi \circ \alpha$. Then, $\alpha^{\star}$ is monic. In the category of finite dimensional vector spaces monic is the same as injective.
Also, $V^{\star}$ has same dimension as V and same with $W^{\star}$, so we are done.
@TedShifrin Right, I forgot to consider the possibility that you already gave them problems like this numerous times. Besides, I was joking :)
Of course, the form is exact so totally not a problem.
hey Ted
18:56
Hi DODO
Oh @Ted I think I might have an idea of how to solve the problem I told you about yesterday, about the signature of forms, can I run my (vague) idea by you?
signature?
Yeah, the signature of a 1-form $\omega$ in the punctured plane being the (unique) real number $k$ such that $\omega-k(\frac{-ydx + xdy}{x^2+y^2}$ is exact
bad word
Dual of the winding number, isn't it
19:00
Who wants to visit the well-known Dr. Graubner ? :D
also isn't $k$ supposed to be an integer
no, balarka, real cohom class
Ah right
H^1(S^1) is R, not Z
Oh huh, "signature" how it was denoted in the problem. But yeah, my initial idea is to pullback to polar coordinates, so that $\omega - k\omega_0$ becomes $\Phi^*\omega - kd\theta$
19:09
And so ... ?
I'm thinking it'll be easier to find $k$ there and say that if we pushforward back to Cartesian space, it will make our original form exact.
Haven't figured out how to do that yet, but would that be a good way of approaching the problem?
What is a sufficient criterion to know a $1$-form is exact?
I'm not sure you've done what you need yet.
Integral over any loop is $0$
Oh, so you have done line integrals already. Cool.
OK, if you know that (or know how to prove that), you're in good shape.
Actually integrating it didn't come to mind until now, maybe that'll work. Thanks!
19:18
LOL.
I don't think I helped too much :)
Haha, well, oftentimes useful hints come in the form of unintentionally leading questions :P
19:45
Oh my god I just realized that $\omega$ was assumed to be closed
This makes life SO MUCH EASIER
I need to read questions more carefully
@TedShifrin how are you
So let $k=\frac{\int_{\mathbb{S}^1} \omega}{2\pi}$. Then given any closed loop around the origin, you can homotope it to the circle (since $\omega - k\omega_0$ is closed, the integral should stick), and the integral is 0. Then, if the loop doesn't contain the origin in the interior, it should follow from Stokes's theorem
20:18
Well maybe I need to prove smth like, if $c$ has winding number $n$ with respect to the origin, then $\int_c \omega = n\int_{\mathbb{S}^1} \omega$, for a closed 1-form $\omega$.
20:48
How can I study analyticlaly the function $f(x)=x\sin(\frac 1x)$
If $c_1(x)=\sin(x)$ and $c_2(x)=\frac 1x$
Then $$f(x)=x((c_1\circ c_2) (x))$$
21:04
@Daminark Once you finish that problem, you might consider what happens in a doubly punctured plane. Specifically, compare what homotopy versus winding numbers say about the contour here.
Do we know that ? $$|\sin( \frac 1x ) |\le 1, \text{for all}x$$
Why would we be able to? (I'm not saying it's wrong, but you should be able to justify it.)
We have $|\sin(x)|\le 1$
lets do some topology
@BalarkaSen
@Mahmoud Right, for all real $x$. Do you know how to justify that?
21:12
Using function composition ?
Eh, there's a simpler reason. Think $\cos^2 x+\sin^2 x=1$. Can the second term exceed one?
For all real $x\not=0$ We know that $1/x$ is real
Oh, you mean how you justify $|\sin(1/x)|\leq 1$. Yes, function composition.
So yeah, $|\sin(1/x)|\leq 1$ for almost all $x$. (What's the one exceptional case?)
Ehm .. $0$ ?
Ya.
It'd be a bit strange to say that it's bounded it at a place where it's not defined.
21:16
So I don't really have to study the composition ? We just need to know that $1/x$ is real and defined ?
Right. If you've justified that $|\sin x|$ doesn't exceed 1 for any real $x$---well, so long as $x\neq 0$, $1/x$ is certainly a real number as well. So it also applies for that.
Right, simple and straight forward, thanks $\ddot\smile$
So whatever weird stuff $\sin(1/x)$ does for $x>0$, it has to do so within $[-1,1]$.
It oscillates infinitely many times near $0$.
Quite neat.
21:21
But how can we deduce that analytically ?
Eh, simplest thing is to observe that it takes values +/- 1 infinitely often.
And that's easy enough: Where does $\sin(1/x)=1$, for instance?
Hrmf.... first draft of paper will be ready to send to my advisor tomorrow. Nerves are starting to kick in.
At $x=\frac 2\pi +\frac 12 \pi n$, for $n\in \Bbb Z$
No. For $n=0$ that's right, but not otherwise.
If you take $1/x$, you don't get $\pi n/2$ in the argument of $\sin$.
Why ?
21:31
$x=2/\pi+\pi n/2\implies \sin(1/x)=\sin((2/\pi+\pi n/2)^{-1})\neq \sin(\pi/2+2\pi n)=1$.
Oh, so $x=\frac{2}{\pi+4n\pi}$
Right.
How about $\sin(1/x)=-1$?
Find the number of different ways 6 students can be arranged if seated in a row of 4 chairs
would this be 6 choose 4?
$x=\frac{2}{-\pi+4n\pi}$
@MATHASKER No. Order matters if they're in a row.
21:34
why would order matter?
Because they would have to sit down in a different order?
Admittedly, it does require an interpretation of the problem.
But it certainly makes a difference to a student whether or not he gets to sit next to his girlfriend at a movie :)
@TedShifrin For the pedal property of ellipse one, is the product $b^2$?
Or maybe just sitting next to the board and the teacher :)
ohh okay thanks for clearin that up, I thought the order wouldn't matter
@MATHASKER Good luck on your exam $\ddot\smile$
21:37
(I think I was able to manipulate it into $\left(\frac{\|F_1P\|+\|F_2P\|}2\right)^2-\left(\frac{\|F_1P-F_2P\|}2\right)^2$, which is $a^2-c^2=b^2$.)
You always have to read the problem carefully, of course, to understand what you're supposed to count.
thanks @Mahmoud how did you know I had an exam though
If you were asked how many ways four out of six students could go to a movie, then it would be 6 choose 4.
Oh because it doesn't matter which 4 you choose right?
It doesn't matter in which order you pick the four. It certainly matters which four go to the movie!
21:39
@MATHASKER You're bold profile description, trust me the Math isn't very bad, if you look for understanding rather than ''Which formula will I be using in the exam ?''
@TedShifrin Why is it called the pedal property?
@Mahmoud but sometimes I just don't get math...the description is almost a year old though
@MATHASKER Lol, gotta remove that ''tomorrow'', anyway have you been on this ?
@Semiclassical so how could the question be worded if order mattered?
21:43
Eh, I think it's arguable that the wording does suggest 'order matters'. A row of four, for instance, always consists of those students in some arrangement.
By contrast, if they just said "four students out of six go to see a movie/see a lecture/etc" then order definitely wouldn't matter.
ohh
@Mahmoud ya I use khan academy sometimes..its just my exams start in like 3 days and I can't watch all the videos
Anyway, good luck @MATHASKER :)
Thanks
In the epsilon-delta definition of limits, if $L=0$ can we deduce that $\epsilon=\delta$ ? @Semiclassical
Nice name @Socrates
@Mahmoud thanks
21:54
I don't remember the ins-and-outs of epsilon-delta, so I can't comment.
if we have a binary operation from ZxZ->Z, with a$\circ$b=a+b-1. does this mean (a,b)->a+b-1?
where (a.b) is in ZxZ
i proved sexy theorem
22:16
@ForeverMozart What was
Find the number of different ways 6 students can be arranged if 3 are boys and 3 are girls and boys must sit adjoining
I wonder what non-mathematicians would think a "sexy theorem" is.
wouldn't this be 3*2*1*3*2*1
one about sexy primes
@SteamyRoot To be honest, I'm not quite sure what mathematicians think a sexy theorem is
22:20
@MATHASKER Since the boys must be adjoining, there are 4 places the boys can be clustered (123, 234, 345, 456) and 6 ways they can be arranged in each of those configurations. Then there are 6 remaining possible configurations for the girls in each case, so I believe the total number is 4*6*6 = 144.
how is it 6 ways they can be arranged?
@MATHASKER Let's say the boys, named A, B, and C, are grouped at the first three chairs. I'll use x's for the girls as they're not important for the moment.
They could be seated ABCxxx, or CABxxx, or BCAxxx, or ACBxxx, or CBAxxx, or BACxxx. Six ways when they're all at 123.
The same is true for when they're at 234, 345, or 456.
Then, to fill in the x's in each case, there are three girls and three slots, so 3!, or 6.
oh so why isn't it just 6*6*6*6?
ohh @fargle I think I kind of get it
thanks
DogAteMy! You paged me?
@AkivaWeinberger Maybe anything to do with this group ?
22:41
Hey everyone, I'm having some trouble understanding this proof in Munkres
What's your problem, @Perturbative?
I don't understand the highlighted part where it says that $f^{-1}(V)$ must intersect $A$ in some point $y$.
@SteamyRoot In a course I'm taking, the main theorem is the Tits Theorem
@Perturbative: If $W$ is a neighborhood of $x$ and $x\in \bar A$, what can you conclude about $A\cap W$?
I'd say that'll do as sexy theorem
22:46
If a polynomial ring can be thought of as a commutative free algebra, can a similar thing be applied to formal power series ring?
Is there some object with infinite words?
You can't take infinite sums in rings, can you?
@TedShifrin Intuitively, I'd say it would be nonempty, but rigorously I don't have a proof for it.
@Perturbative: If $x\in A$, you're done. If $x\notin A$, $x$ must be a limit point of $A$. Go review what that means.
If you give me a few mins I can try and prove it, but I see what you're getting at (since it would be nonempty then it would have to intersect in an arbitrary point $y$
@TedShifrin Okay I will, thanks!
@TedShifrin If $R[X]=\bigoplus_{w \in M^*} Rw$ where $M^*$ is the free monoid on the letters X. Can a similar thing be said for $R[[X]]$
22:51
I understood your question, @Ali. Direct sum implies finite sums. I don't see how to use a product construction, where you can have infinitely many nonzero terms.
You should ask anon = tern.
Shall I just ping?
I haven't seen him in a while, but I'm sure he exists.
Hey guys
if we have a binary operation from ZxZ->Z, with a$\circ$b=a+b-1. does this mean (a,b)->a+b-1?
where (a.b) is in ZxZ
@Socrates: Yes, but it is usually less cumbersome to write the operation with the symbol. When you start doing associativity, you notation will get very cumbersome.
22:53
@anon could you check this out?
@TedShifrin it's just an old assignment, that I rework. Which notation do you mean is now bad?
(the first or the latter)
I'm saying you should continue to write $a\circ b$ for the operation, rather than "mapsto" notation.
ok, I just have forgotten hoiw to read it ;)
Hi @Physics
hello
what is the purpose of this chat?
22:57
@svelaz talking about math
Damn! I've been in the wrong room for all these years, then!
3
Haha okey then
OK, @Socrates: Why'd you star that?
actually, "chatting about math" would be kinda tautologious
22:58
I did.
:P
didn't star it
I'll get you for that, @Mahmoud.
So
are you sudents? phd students?
Everything from middle school through retired professors.
@TedShifrin I can un-star it if you like, you know ..
22:59
okey
Oh wait ! Two people starred it >:(
Now you've done it, Mahmoud.
Besides, how are your limit proofs going?
are you studying a specific subject right now
?

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