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09:02
Since I am trying to get the bounty room going, perhaps a reasonable thing could be to promote it here. So here is link to the relevant meta post and here is the room.
@MartinSleziak That link seems to be to the transcript for the room from when it started
Feel free to tell me off if mentioning that room here is getting too repetivitive and everybody of the chat regulars already saw it - if that's the case I will try to space it out a bit.
@TobiasKildetoft That is on purpose, so that the first thing people see when they click the link is: "Before posting here, please, read the rules."
@MartinSleziak Ahh. My first impression on seeing it was that the room had been inactive for many months
@mick If that bounty expires (or if you have other bounties from the past with no answer you are still interested in, the above room might be of interest for you).
@TobiasKildetoft Well, the room is certainly not very active. So far 6 questions has been posted there.
But if I want to get it going, I have to try somehow spread the word. Mentioning it in chat is one possibility.
Basically, if enough users (both bounty offerers and potential answerers) become aware of the room, then there is chance that it eventually becomes useful.
@MartinSleziak Yeah, I agree with that
09:10
@Danu Do you think How were Millennium Problems chosen? (according to what criteria) would be a reasonable candidate for migration to hsm? I have asked in hsm chat room but received no response there.
The word repetivitive was meant to be repetitive. (Mods have the advantage that they can edit their messages in chat even after the grace period.)
09:51
Hello!!
What information do we get from the graph of the scalar function $\psi (\lambda )=f(\lambda x_1, \lambda x_2)$ at the point $(x_1, x_2)=(1,1)$ for a function $f$ ?
Isn't this just saying how the intersection of the graph with the plane $x_1=x_2$ behaves?
Since you are looking at the points $(\lambda,\lambda)$ and the values $f(\lambda,\lambda)$.
For the function $f(x_1, x_2)=\sqrt{x_1}\cdot x_2$ we get the following graph:
It is the intersection of which graph with the plane $x_1=x_2$ ? @MartinSleziak
I'd say that by looking only on one direction, you cannot say anything about global behavior of the function of two variables. But you might be able to refute some things.
For example, if the section is not convex, the whole function is not convex. If a point is non a minimum of the section, then it is not a minimum of two-variables functions.
@MaryStar Well, you said you are looking at values at $(\lambda x_1,\lambda x_2)=(\lambda,\lambda)$ (for $x_1=x_2=1$). Those are precisely the points where the two coordinates are equal.
Anyway, I will have to leave. But I don't think I am able to provide some more inside into your question from chat than what I posted above.
See you later!
Ok!! Thank you!! :-) See you!! @MartinSleziak
 
1 hour later…
11:06
Anyone awake?
knock knock
i'm almost always awake
Hi.
Can I make my questions hidden?
TT
Ok Thanks.
11:08
You can delete them though, as long as they do not have any positively scored answers
that will hide them from most users
most?
users with 10k+ rep can see deleted posts
though deleted questions are very hard to find even for us
Why do you want to hide a question? That seems to oppose the point of asking a question :P
Lol
Oh thanks @TobiasKildetoft
My questions is about QE problems
and my professors doesn't want to look at those.
It is not my problem.
But my professor told me about it...
What's QE?
11:11
hey guys
Qualifying exam.
Why does what your professor wants to look at make a difference?
@TobiasKildetoft You mean I should make a little difference in my question?
@kayak So what you meant by "not want to look at" was actually that he does not want you to use this site to cheat?
No I mean, he does not want to see these answers in publich.
11:15
Then you shouldn't ask for answers publicly.
Deleting a question after you get an answer is a bad idea if that's what you want to do to hide it.
Best to not ask in MSE.
I know it is not good.
But I already asked and it has answers
I hate my professor.
11:45
@kayak :o
안녕
@DHMO are you listening to anything interesting?
12:07
the moment when people don't get that you really don't have a clue :D
12:44
@Sophie nah
13:00
What does "Cyclic equations" mean? Does it mean a symmetric system of equations?
10
Q: Cyclic system of equations

pre-kidneyConsider the system of equations $$ \begin{align*} x^2+(1-y)^2&=a\\ y^2+(1-z)^2&=b\\ z^2+(1-x)^2&=c\\ \end{align*} $$ Compute $x(1-x)$ in terms of $a,b,c$. Edit: The question should say Compute all possible values of $x(1-x)$ in terms of $a,b,c$

I think so
the notation $\sum_{cyc}$ means a symmetric sum, maybe that's related
I'm looking on the sample question.. Thanks
Oh man. I really don't understand how students dare to claim they didn't copy answers from eachother because their constants are named differently, when they have exactly the same steps, same solutions and same mistakes.
3
@SteamyRoot Mainly the last part is the damning one
13:07
Indeed... that's how I caught on. It's a lot harder to detect cheating on a perfect homework, at least for me.
@SteamyRoot what are you teaching?
Course is "Mathematics for bio-sciences", being biology, biochemistry, etc. It contains only basic calculus really.
Hardest parts of the course are probably critical points of a function of 2 variables; and 2nd order linear differential equations...
a fun problem I came across: $x$ and $y$ are uniformly independently distributed random variables on $(0,1)$. Find the probability that $\lfloor\frac{1}{xy}\rfloor$ is even
13:24
Hmmm... wouldn't that base a sum of ln's or so?
@Sophie ~0 i'd say
(actually slightly above 0, but still)
@Null I don't think so :o
@SteamyRoot I have it as an infinite sum. Idk if it has a closed form
@DHMO oh right, didnt read the floor :P
without the floor the probability that it is an integer would be 0
13:27
50:50?
The density function should be $f(z) = -\ln(z)$ I believe
@Null nah
where $z$ is the product variable $xy$
the probability that $\lfloor\frac{1}{xy}\rfloor=k+1$ for some positive integer $k$ is $\frac{k-\ln(k+1)}{k+1}-\frac{k-1-\ln(k)}{k}$
@DHMO ~0.25, first, half of the intervall will yield 1, which is odd, and half of the other half will yield odd numbers. But that isn't to be taken serious haha
13:30
If $1 \geq z > 1/2$, then $\lfloor \frac{1}{z} \rfloor = 1$
@Sophie how you know?
and then you have to between $1/2$ and $1/3$ which gives an even result, and, then $1/3$ to $1/4$ will be odd again, etc
the probabilities are the areas between these hyperbolas
At least, I think
those are $\frac{1}{kx}$ for $k=2,3\dots$, of course only finitely many are represented
13:32
@Sophie Try to plot $\frac{2}{x}\le y\le \frac{3}{x}$
Yeah, it's what I get
@DHMO don't you mean $\frac{1}{2x}$ and so on
@SteamyRoot are you teacher?
@Sophie yes
$\frac{1}{3x}\le y\le \frac{1}{2x}$
@Null PhD student, TA some courses
13:34
\frac{1}{3x}\le y\le \frac{1}{2x}
@SteamyRoot burden of proof lies on you, still.
Oh, I have plenty of proof.
actually it takes some heart to claim one has not copied, so i dunno XD
only evidence, unless you tested them verbal, i suppose
why not see it sportmanly?
@SteamyRoot does the final grade in the course depend exclusively on that exam or will there be an oral one too?
They're welcome to take it to the professor if they insist they haven't copied. So far none of them have done so.
It's just homeworks, they can't lose marks, only earn bonus
13:38
@SteamyRoot ah, well.
@SteamyRoot would you be happy if someone took the challenge?
(e.g. if they score 4/5 on the homeworks, the exam grade x/20 will be rescaled to x'/16 and they get (x+4)/20 )
No, because it'd mean they care more about grades than understanding the course
They already care more about grades because they cheated, I guess...
I cheated because we have a point system to be allowed for the exam. From now on I won't. I just had to give myself free space.
silly systems for silly people?
actually I know that I know nothing, so I'm fine, because at least I'm not cheating myself :)
I don't think the sum $\sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{2n-\ln(2n+1)}{2n+1}-\frac{2n-1-\ln(2)}{2n}$ has a closed form. Not a good one at least
@Sophie what does wolframalpha say?
it says it converges and gives a few partial sums
no estimate of the total
13:44
@Sophie run a program?
nah it would be more efficient to use a Monte Carlo method
@Sophie but a program is faster
I mean, both are programs
I mean direct summation is faster
@Sophie Do you have numerical values for what you "should" get?
the mathoverflow post where I found this question did
let me find that again
17
Q: Parity of $\lfloor 1/(x y) \rfloor$ not equally distributed

Joseph O'RourkeA curious puzzle for which I would appreciate an explanation. For $x$ and $y$ both uniformly and independently distributed in $[0,1]$, the value of $\lfloor 1/(x y) \rfloor$ has a bias toward odd numbers. Here are $10$ random trials: $$51, 34, 1, 239, 9, 4, 2, 1, 1, 1 $$ with $7$ odd numbers. H...

Yeah, that's what I get
13:49
hot damn it has a closed form $(\log 2)^2 + \bigl(2 (1 - \gamma) \log 2\bigr) - 1$
2
@Sophie how/who?
wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum+(-1)%5E(n%2B1)*(1%2Fn)*(ln(1%2Fn)-1),+n‌​+%3D+2+to+infinity
@DHMO Noam Elkies
@Sophie oh, I missed it lol
Not so difficult to find the sums. Closed forms require some manipulation and using the definition of euler-masscheroni constant
13:50
that's nice
wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum+(-1)%5En*(1%2Fn)*(ln(1%2Fn)-1),+n+%3D+1‌​+to+infinity
meh, wolfram links don't paste so well
@SteamyRoot use [link_text](link_url)
Meh, can't be bothered. I got the closed form solutions of the probability of both odd and even.
Good morning friends
well the sum of those is 1 so if you have one the other is easy
13:53
@Joris Are you around?
Yeah, but I calculated the separately to verify if the sum is indeed 1 :P
Closed forms depending on Euler-Masscheroni feel like cheating, though.
nah learn to love the gamma
But, given its integral definition, it's no big surprise it shows up in this question
$\lim_{s\to 1}\left(\zeta(s)-\frac{1}{s-1}\right)=\gamma$
@SteamyRoot nah, it proves that it has no valid close forms
13:57
I was going to use $\gamma = \int_1^\infty \left(\frac{1}{\lfloor x \rfloor} - \frac{1}{x} \right)dx$
do we count something like $\pi\erf(\gamma)$ as a closed form?
Depends on your definition of closed form, but I definitely wouldn't :P
I see TeX does not
It's only fitting that the error function would throw an error.
3
14:11
i had a problem
i was gonna ask it here
but i figured it out with some thingking :/
so nvm
14:37
@MartianCactus congratz
@Jason Yes, I am now
15:03
my question got 5 votes and the answer was perfect and I gave it one upvote and no one else upvoted the answer. :( I feel bad for the guy. I gave him my bounty though
how is $$(x-1)^2 = (x-5)^2$$
Gfaux i will give him an upvote
$(x-1)^2 = (x-5)^2$
$|x-1| = |x-5|$
$x-1 = x-5$ or $x-1 = 5-x$
(rejected) or $x=3$
$x=3$
how did u come up with 5-x ?
what i dont get is
u multiply a value from a number
@MartianCactus that is just -(x-5)
u multiply a bigger value from the same number
then square them both
how do u end up with the same thing?
15:06
I don't understand what you mean
oh wait
ok, i got it :P
Alternatively:
$(x-1)^2 = (x-5)^2$
$x^2-2x+1 = x^2-10x+25$
$8x=24$
$x=3$
i just substituted the value for x
thx!!
Alternatively:
$(x-1)^2 = (x-5)^2$
$(x-1)^2 - (x-5)^2 = 0$
$((x-1)+(x-5))((x-1)-(x-5)) = 0$
$(2x-6)(4) = 0$
$x=3$
@MartianCactus you are welcome
15:18
hey guys, have a question with method, "Find the sum of the first $n$ terms of the series : $(2*3)+(3*4)+(4*5)+...+(n+1)(n+2)$" I can be awarded 5 marks for this however it seems really simple; $\sum_{r=1}^n (r+1)(r+2)$. Where are the 5 marks allocated?
@SylentNyte because you're supposed to find its closed form
i.e. no summation sign
@DHMO ah right okay
@SylentNyte welcome to the world of patterns
ty ty
I gotta go have breakfast but I may be on later, see ya
"Given a formal language L, does there exist a proof in that language of some theorem T?" why isn't this a decision problem in the class NP?
15:24
Hi all
@zounds who said it isnt?
@Astyx hi
isn't it unsolvable?
@Joris What is your plan with working through Gathmann?
Have you done much of it yet?
No, I have done very little
15:31
@zounds It is unsolvable
My plan is that we meet on Skype - twice a week would be probably good - and read the lecture notes together and do the exercises.
Should we make a chat room? I would be happy to work through it together with you.
@zounds I think it's because the length of the shortest proof is not a polynomial in the length of the statement
if it's unsolvable it can't be in NP because then P != NP trivially, so why isn't it in NP?
I did already
15:34
There are relatively short provable statements whose shortest proofs in PA or ZFC are more than googolplex long, I think
NP contains problems that can be solved by a turing machine, if a problem it's undecidable it doesn't belong there
I see
@AkivaWeinberger for example?
I think "This statement can't be proven with less than 10^100 steps" (once written in the language of PA using Gödel's ideas) has to have a long proof
I think you can prove that there is no computable function that bounds above the length of the shortest proof in terms of the length of the theorem
I'm not 100% sure and can't think about it properly right now though
the last paragraph of this answer seems relevant
"For first order logic, note that the first order logic is undecidable, i.e. given a formula there is no algorithm to check if it is a valid formula. Any computable upperbound on the proof size would give an algorithm for deciding first order logic, check all possible proofs up to that size.
(Note that an upper bound on proof length in natural deduction/sequent calculus will give an upper bound on the size because of normalization/cut elimination). Since there is no such algorithm, there cannot be any computable upperbound."
15:43
Yeah that's what I was thinking
Regarding the "This statement…10^100 steps" thing I mentioned earlier, the reason that we know it's provable at all is that there are finitely many theorems of length less than 10^100, so we can just check them all.
I don't get the mindset of this question: math.stackexchange.com/q/2061327/137524
None of the proofs of length less than 10^100 can prove it, because proving a statement means it's true (assuming consistency), and if it's true the proof can't be less than 10^100 long, contradiction.
So we check all proofs of length less than 10^100, see that none of them work, and conclude that the theorem is true.
The metamathematical proof that I just gave doesn't count because it can't be written in the language of PA.
@Akiva, sure it can, you're just not using Godel numbers long enough
:P
@GFauxPas That wouldn't change the number of steps, I don't think, but nice try
15:49
@AkivaWeinberger what is metamathematical?
math that talks about math
A proof about proofs. I suppose I really mean metalogical or something
Akiva I was just joking
When you're reasoning about a proof or logic system like PA, the reasoning takes place in a metalogic @Null
@GFauxPas I know
Hey guys, Do any of you know if every measure, can be written as a linear combination of probability measures?
*every finite measure.
Never mind im clearly a newb.
15:54
You know more about it than I do
@AkivaWeinberger mmh, is there something as metaenglish?
That analogy presumes that English is logical.
The website with the hydra applet mentions metamathematics, I think
What's weird about that hydra game is that, on the one hand, by its design (normal + dire heads) it definitely seems worse than the standard hydra. but it's also got a probability aspect i.e. it doesn't always grow new heads, and when it does it's not always the same number of copies
which makes analyzing it rather hard.
It "only actually grows parts back when it won't clutter the display too much"
16:02
Right.
What that means in practice isn't clear.
By the way, do you know what Goodstein sequences are?
I've seen them, yeah. Hereditary bases and such.
If you start with 4, it takes $3\cdot2^{402653211}-2$ steps
Yeah.
Crazy.
you're thinking the worst-case-scenario of the dire hydra gives a goodstein sequence (or similar)?
16:09
I was just mentioning it because it's a similar idea (in terms of proof)
The hydra game itself came up because metamathematics came up
@MikeMiller Because the hydra in the applet is constrained by the fact that it can't clutter the screen too much, there's probably a (relatively) reasonable bound on how many hydras could possibly appear
which means that the worst case scenario, which goes through every possible hydra once, would be relatively reasonable and not at all Goldstein-like
Yeah. Alas, there's no good way to gather statistics from that applet.
I'd love to see, for instance, a time-series plot of the number of heads as a function of time.
(one step per second, say)
maybe you can ask the guy for the source code and take it apart
can I see a link to what this thing is, on that note?
Eh, I'm not -that- curious.
What I should do is ask on Mathematica.SE for an implementation of the hydra game.
16:13
@MikeMiller Someone was asking why the question "Does this language prove statement T" was unsolvable — specifically, why it's not NP. I think the idea is that the length of the proof is not a polynomial in the length of the theorem, or even a computable function
Modified so that that it grows new heads with probability p, say.
But I'd also need some algorithm to simulate autoplay, and I dunno how that would work.
Just give an 8 year old 10 bucks to do it
riight
I'll get right on that, just as soon as I find an 8 year old who knows how to code in Mathematica.
or tell him how much money you'll give him if he wins
oh I thought you were still talking about the applet
Nah.
You're probably right, though, that it should be simpler to -get- the data from the applet than to write a new one from scratch.
16:17
Is "This statement cannot be proven by @Semiclassical" a provable statement
@Akiva Right. The only pseudo-algorithm involves enumerating all strings and checking if one is a proof. If the theorem is not provable, you're in bad shape!
You could also enumerate strings to see if one is a proof of falsity but if it's independent you're toast
@MikeMiller And if there were a computable upper bound, we could just check all proofs up to the upper bound.
So it's definitely not bounded by a polynomial. And I think that last bit is enough to show that it's not NP.
Yup
It's not even in the computable heirarchy :p
like, there's no algorithm to produce a certificate
16:31
In regards to my previous message of ""Find the sum of the first $n$ terms of the series : $(2*3)+(3*4)+(4*5)+...+(n+1)(n+2)$" I can be awarded 5 marks for this however it seems really simple; $\sum_{r=1}^n (r+1)(r+2)$. Where are the 5 marks allocated?"

I have found the sum of the first n terms to be $\frac{n^3+6n^2+11}{3}$
For n=2, that formula gives (8+24+11)/3 = 43/3 != 18. @SylentNyte
@Semiclassical yes, which is the intended result
because the series starts from (2*3) + (3*4), so the first 2 terms is 6 + 12 = 18
I mean that your supposed formula doesn't work for n=2.
16:37
why not..? I cant see it
oh
wait
yea i see why it doesnt work
okay let me check it out
didnt see the !=
gotcha.
oh, btw: I just realized that the hydra game's page is an xhtml script, so you can actually view the source code in-browser [here](view-source:madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml)
That works for Chrome, anyhow.
hey dude
i disagree
@Semiclassical its not $(8+24+11)/3$, its $(8+24+22)/3$
now i realise i made a typo; $\frac{n^3 + 6n^2 + 11n}{3}$
Okay, that's plausible.
thank you though, for checking over :)
(27+54+33)/3 = 9 +18+11 = 38, 2*3+3*4+4*5 = 6+12+20 =38
yep, it checks out.
16:49
Hey guys - quick question.
If X and Y are random variables, with X greater or equal to 0, how do you prove P[E(X|Y) \geq 0] = 1?
17:46
Hey @BalarkaSen @arctictern
18:25
Hi!!! Is anyone familiar with boolean functions?
"Just ask, don't ask to ask"...
I don't have a specific question. @Semiclassical
I wanted to know if it is a good topic for a presentation and if so, how the structure of the presentation could look like.
Ah. I've no insight to provide, then.
@Evinda That depends what sort of overall topic the presentation needs to be about
18:41
@TobiasKildetoft There are no restrictions. The topic can be anything interesting, wide and scientific.
Can you suggest me a possible structure?
I am not even quite certain what you mean by a boolean function
sign that I'm tired and for some reason not feeling that great: I can't keep 1m=100 cm straight :/
To be honest, I haven't occupied so far with boolean functions. I found the definition in wikipedia: In mathematics and logic, a (finitary) Boolean function (or switching function) is a function of the form ƒ : B^k → B, where B = {0, 1} is a Boolean domain and k is a non-negative integer called the arity of the function. In the case where k = 0, the "function" is essentially a constant element of B. @TobiasKildetoft
Hi @Adeek
@Evinda If you don't know any more about them than that, why pick that topic?
18:45
I think you need to do some substantial narrowing of your topic yourself. Talk with your prof if you need to.
If it's not supposed to be on something you already know a lot, then pick something which you know just enough to be interested.
If you can't give a reason why you'd be interested in that topic, it's probably not a good one.
"What you find interesting", though, is not a question we can answer for you.
@TobiasKildetoft I thought that it would be interesting.
@Semiclassical The prof said that we should find the topic, without him since he has no time right now. Because of the fact that we gave no restrictions, I don't know how to choose one...
@Evinda Pick something you actually know something about
^
Plus, 'boolean functions' in and of themselves are probably not very interesting.
By contrast, some application or theorem regarding them could be interesting, if you know one.
I don't know any theorem or applications. Have you heard some interesting ones?
I know for example about set theory, computability theory, number theory , pdes, algorithms and complexity.
No, I haven't. And if you haven't, I again ask: What is it about Boolean functions that makes them appear like an interesting topic?
18:56
Do you have a suggestion about one of these topics? @TobiasKildetoft
@Evinda You really need to pick a more narrow topic to get started
I thought that they are somehow related to computability theory @Semiclassical
all of those you listed are huge topics
Yes, that's why I don't know how to find a topic. Do you maybe know an interesting topic about algorithms and complexity? @TobiasKildetoft
@Evinda Not really, since that is not my area
18:58
If that's what you're interested in, maybe start by looking at some of the major results in that area? I don't know them well myself.
I suppose complexity of permanents such as the immanant might be interesting

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