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22:00
@Alessandro So yes, that works.
Ok, now the hopf link...
By that technique, you get a feel for the (true) fact that the genus of "the" Siefert surface of the trefoil is 1. That's an invariant of knots in general (genus of the trivial knot is 0 so now you know these two knots are inequivalent: the trefoil cannot be unknotted).
Wow, Balarka's turning Alessandro into a topologist ;)
Uhm, actually I'm getting doubts about the 2 connected components part after doing a better drawing
hello everyone
Could someone show me how one would e.g. calculate this:
22:12
Hi @Ted!
Hi @Alessandro :)
$\frac{1}{2} \frac{j-1}{j}$
I am not so experienced with complex calculation...
What do you want to do with that, @trilolil?
If you plug in a value for $j$, then you just figure it out.
just simplify this in some way, because I have another similar exercice:

$\frac{j}{j-0.5} = 1.12$
@Alessandro Cruds, you're right.
22:14
I am trying to find out how they got this 1.12 by understanding a simiar exercise.
No, that makes no sense, @trilolil. They have a particular value in mind for $j$ then.
I'm right in saying that I'm wrong or I'm right?
You're right that you're wrong.
Yes @Alessandro :D
Ah, damn
22:16
lol
@TedShifrin well I have some notes that say: $\sqrt{1^2 + (\frac{1}{2})^2} = 1.12$
does that help?
I sure wish I didn't forget all the 3D modeling I knew :P
Back to the trefoil then
That sounds about right, @trilolil.
Where does $j$ come from in what you're doing?
@trilolil $\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2}$ to be exact
I know there is some geometrical/visual to get to that 1.12, but I was hoping there was a more algebraic way to solve this.
22:17
I'm sorry, @trilolil. None of this makes any sense without more context.
@TedShifrin unit circle (in the context of digital signal processing)
unit circle in the z-domain.
@Balarka @Alessandro Removing a trefoil from the torus does not disconnect the torus.
@Alessandro Here is a picture. You can see for yourself that it doesn't disconnect.
And where did your expression and equation with $j$ come from?
Oh, you already caught.
22:19
hi @TedShifrin
rehi @meow
Yeah, but I was very confused.
im still thinking about that "medians of a triangle are concurrent" problem
Oh, back in the affine geometry section?
A simple closed disconnecting curve on a torus gives a connected sum description of the torus, hence there's a disc on one side, hence it's the unknot.
22:19
@TedShifrin I have the following equation in the z-domain: $H(z) = \frac{1}{2}\frac{z+1}{z}$ Where for the current calculation z = j.
no, this is a problem in the projective geometry section
You don't have an equation, @trilolil. What is that thing equal to? And why?
i have to do it using desargues' dual
Oh @meow ... gotcha.
Slick, @MikeMiller.
22:20
so i know what i need to prove in order to use the theorem
but i'm wondering how i should go about proving it
@TedShifrin If I have to answer to the question why I will have to give a few lectures of digital signal processing...
You haven't given me anything to do with it, @trilolil.
It looks like a transfer function...
@TedShifrin oh also, i'm writing a little animation thing that shows how the intersection of two constantly rotating lines forms a conic section in $\Bbb R^2$
I've taught a little signal processing before, but what are you trying to do? You can simplify $\dfrac{z+1}z = 1+\dfrac1z$. Other than that ...
@meow: You should put the projective transformation in there and see what different conics you get with different values.
22:22
my question turns out to be very simple...

$\frac{j}{j-0.5} = 1.12$ How do yoou get 1.12?
nice, that looks much better than my drawings :P so if I remove a trefoil from the torus and give some width to the removed part I get a surface whose boundary looks like 2 trefoils
@trilolil I don't think Ted is asking for that information necessarily, I think he is asking what you're trying to learn about the system $H$ represents. At least, I'm fuzzy about what you're asking...
@Alessandro Sure, but that does not accomplish your job :)
I have no idea, @trilolil. You haven't given me any information except that you told me the $1.12$ came from the Pythagorean Theorem with $\sqrt{1^2+(1/2)^2}$.
Not yet but maybe I can tweak it somehow to get rid of the bonus trefoil (or at least I hope so)
22:23
You could simply have constructed something with 2 trefoil boundary by thickening the trefoil into trefoil x [0, 1].
True, maybe that's not a great idea
Is there some similar triangles picture or something you're not telling me, @trilolil?
Hint: The Hopf link is easier, and might shed some light on how to deal with the trefoil.
@TedShifrin Well by converting the imaginary numbers j and 0.5 to polar coordinates one can construct a triangle and use the pythagorean theorem to calculate the hyppothenusa which here equals 1.12.
@trilolil Do you actually mean imaginary? Or just complex?
22:25
Complex, but here it comes out real. I have no idea what's going on. I cannot help.
I started with thw trefoil because that looked easier actually... as usual my intuition was wrong :P
Alright, I'm heading off to bed. See you in the morning.
However I would like to know whether there is another way which doesn t depend on geomettry and conversions to polar coordinates in order to get the value 1.12 (which was the the length of the hypothenusa)
Night, @Balarka!
@BalarkaSen night
22:26
Goodnight @Balarka!
o/
Rehowdy @Danu
Will "reh" become a word for "welcome back" in 100 years?
@MickLH $j=e^{j90}$
I don't know what else I can add.
Oh, $j$ is the pure imaginary. We write that $i$ in mathematics.
22:27
I decided I could do with some random background reading regarding fiber bundles, so I looked into some books. I found that Novikov wrote three books on geometry/topology, and that the second half of the last one looks quite interesting. So now I'm reading a bit more about obstruction theory, building towards the gneeral concept of cohomology operations
But you cannot write what you just did, @trilolil. You need radian measure, not degrees.
$j=e^{j\pi/2}$.
Later, the books will discuss things related to cobordism theory (which I wanna learn about) and how it relates to smooth structures
@TedShifrin boom I think the code is cracked! nice lol
But that equation is not correct. If you take the imaginary number $j$ and divide it by $j-.5$, you do not get a real number like $1.12$.
22:29
On the way they also discuss a bit about homotopy groups of spheres, which is cool.
So we're not out of the woods yet.
hmm...
@Danu: Don't forget to look at Steenrod's original book. There's some good insights in there.
I think I like Russian-style textbooks.
@TedShifrin Hmm, okay. The originator of the structure group POV right?
Except they pretend they're proving things and don't sometimes, @Danu. Same with research articles.
22:30
That POV must've gotten a huge boost with the advent of sheaf cohomology.
Yes, @Danu.
@TedShifrin whaa?
@TedShifrin what should the result be then?
A number of famous Russians are quite infamous for this, @Danu.
@Danu morpheus meme image macro
22:30
@TedShifrin drop some names :P
@MickLH meme denied
Arnol'd is the big one, @Danu.
Really? He didn't write complete-enough proofs?
@trilolil: $\dfrac j{j-.5} = .8(1-.5j) = .8 -.4j$
Nope, @Danu.
Still highly regarded, though? Or is that just the impression I get as an outsider?
Absolutely.
22:32
Okay.
Great ideas, not so precise at times :D
Jives well with his huge interest in physics
But the paper McCrory and I wrote on cusps of the projective Gauss map, we spent pages proving carefully the sort of "genericity" claims that Arnol'd just asserted with no justification whatsoever.
@TedShifrin 0.5 x 0.8 = 0.04 right?
No. Half of $.8$ is $.4$. :)
@TedShifrin btw from where do you get .8 ?
@Danu So, a human??
22:33
$.8 = 4/5 = \dfrac 1{5/4} = \dfrac1{1^2+(1/2)^2}$.
@MickLH ...
@TedShifrin oops...
Heya, DogAteMy!
hi @AkivaWeinberger
22:35
@TedShifrin How did people think about classifying bundles before sheaf cohomology? All through these universal spaces?
@TedShifrin welp now i gotta write a determinant function to solve f or the intersection of these lines
No, no, @meow. This is all geometric stuff. No formulas.
@TedShifrin i mean, for my animation
Ohhhhh, sorry, sure.
Cool :)
Are you finding this stuff interesting, @meow?
@Danu: Nothing wrong with Grassmannians ... I don't know the history accurately, but Steenrod might help.
@Ted: Gromov!
22:37
How do you make an animation?
Like, what program are you using
LOL @MikeM. Sure.
yeah; when i found out how to construct a conic w/ a projective transformation of pencils to pencils, it was really cool
@AkivaWeinberger i'm using Processing 3.2.3
(Never heard of it)
If there's anyone truly infamous for lack of detail...
it's like a programming language
22:38
@TedShifrin I see.
Perhaps @MikeM can offer a bit more historical insight.
so you write loops, and lines of code, that do stuff :P
But are there any serious instances where e.g. Arnol'd claimed a wrong result?
So very much not WYSIWYG
(What you see is what you get)
@AkivaWeinberger nope! :P
i don't like WYSIWYG editors like word
22:39
@Danu: My idol Griffiths was also somewhat notorious for messing up details, but he tried to give them correctly :)
Though I guess "What you see isn't what you get" has the same acronym…
I hatehatehatehate Word, @meow.
@TedShifrin Like the signs in the book? :P
@meow-mix Word doesn't make animations though
@TedShifrin I was told by Kotschick (and then verified) that Taubes writes everything in Word
22:39
@AkivaWeinberger how would you make a WYSIWYG animation?
Oh, everyone messes up signs. Even Chern did.
That makes me lose respect for Taubes.
The papers are very ugly.
Also I've been using Google Docs (free) but it's also WYSIWYG
He still does it.
i typeset all my documents in LaTeX
22:40
@meow: Just what every 13-year old does. :)
im teaching this guy a language called MIPS asm, and so i wrote him some notes in there :]
I would do that for math stuff, I guess, but not school essays…
(for nintendo 64 game hacking)
@meow-mix I think Flash is like that?
I write letters in LaTeX now, DogAteMy. You can format essays beautifully once you set up a template document.
22:40
The input isn't text, at least
I guess that if you're good enough, you don't need to give a crap about formatting :P
@TedShifrin Is there a document class that would be better suited to homework than "article"?
I wonder if anyone writes math papers in "scanned handwritten" format.
Nah, I'd set it up with article.
From Taubes' most recent paper (October '16):
22:42
historical insight about what?
taubes writes in ms word; whatever
@Danu :(
…ugh
he's an old man
22:43
hm how should i do this
Meh, TeX has been around for about... 35 years?
For essays, though, I don't think there's a lot of typesetting required. No special math symbols, just paragraphs
and you still have to learn it
I've learned it.
i need to find the intersections of two lines
22:43
I started doing plain TeX and AMSTeX around 1989.
given two pairs of pairs of points
i.e. the first pair are on the first line
the second pair are on the second line
what formula should i use for that?
i mean
whatever ill just work on it myself
Good question for you to figure out, @meow.
laziness is not good.
22:45
Which is why we'll just keep telling you to figure it out.
well this isnt good
There's at least a few math books I have that are written with a typewriter font (which I'm pretty sure means "written with a typewriter".) They're hard to read, especially the formulae
if i find the slope for a line with 0 $\Delta x$
ill get a divide by 0 error
typically old stuff, DogAteMy, but lots ...
No, @meow, I would say that's very not good.
@AkivaWeinberger I guess that just means nobody bothered to retype them in nicer formatting. I really hate it, too.
22:46
(Also, "books I have" $\ne$ "books I've read/finished")
Why do typewriters all have the same font (or at least the same class of fonts), anyway?
Spivak himself LaTeXed (well, actually, AMS-LaTeXed) his 5-volume diff geo text after a number of years.
There are non-typewriter-looking monospace fonts out there.
@TedShifrin Cheers to that :)
i don't find those hard to read at all, other than sometimes I can't tell that some symbol is $\mathscr N$ or whatever (but I can still identify the symbol as "it's that symbolf rom the previous page")
22:47
@meow ugh I wouldn't suggest writing a function to compute determinants by yourself
When I wrote my Ph.D., I hired the math secretary to type the official copy. She used an IBM Selectric with a symbol ball that had to go in every time there was a symbol.
@Alessandro: Regardless, it's just a 2x2 determinant.
@TedShifrin I'm not sure I know what that means
@AkivaWeinberger Wasn't Nash's thesis written partly by typewriter but with the math done by hand? Though I suppose that's not modern-day.
@MikeMiller Understanding individual symbols is not so much the problem---the flow of reading is just continuously disrupted by bad spacing/slightly weird looking sequences of symbols.
Google IBM Selectric, DogAteMy :)
22:48
ah, ok, I thought there were bigger determinants involved, no problem then
I dunno, I haven't read it @Fargle
you say that as if it's objective fact
(Though I do have this nice annotated version of Turing's thesis)
@MikeMiller There is substantial research on optimal reading flow, and how it relates to type-setting.
This is also incorporated into TeX's design.
If you read Knuth's original paper introducing TeX he explains some bits of it.
@Danu Is said paper written in TeX, I wonder?
22:50
@AkivaWeinberger Check it out for yourself ;)
wow, what a pretty function
(sarcasm fully intended)
We have no idea what you're babbling about, @meow.
There are way better ways to do this, @meow.
w/e, i already coded it
22:54
Try an example or two to make sure it's right.
There was a thing Knuth wrote that I read a while ago (about an alternate approach to teaching calculus) that I couldn't find a PDF of, just the LaTeX code
I had to copy/paste it into LaTeX to read it
hey @TedShifrin want to verify something with you
Let X be a normed space. Let $B(X)$ denote the set of bounded linear operators from X to itself. Let $K(X)$ denote the set of compact operators from X to itself.
Then $K(X) = B(X)$ iff $dim(X) < \infty$.
Karim: I do not know this stuff.
23:03
LOL, @MickLH
Suppose that $dim(X) < \infty$ then $B_x$ is compact(the open ball centered at x. Let $T \in B(X)$ then it is continuos. So, $T(B_x)$ is compact as it is the continous image of compact set. Compact sets in haussdorff space are closed so $Clos(T(B_x)) = T(B_x)$ so $T \in K(X)$.
what do you think ?
maybe @MikeMiller dou know this stuff ?
@Adeek yeah, that's the easier direction - it follows from the definition of compact!
you should probably know I can feel a vibe that you do a lot of analysis work.
man I haven't done any analysis in a while and it's real sad
@MickLH I like the implication that Newton took the screenshot (since it's his picture at the very bottom)
23:05
oh @MikeMiller I like analysis more than algebra now. Altough representation theory is fun as well
hopefully this algebraic geometry I will get to work with both.
I don't really like combinatorial thinking I like stuff which uses visual intuition.
Someone said that mathematics needs a totally new approach to measure theory. I told him that the importance of such a theory would be immeasurable.
there's essentially no analysis in most of algebraic geometry
smacks DogAteMy
@AkivaWeinberger nobody said this
Yes they did, it was in a comment to a Math Overflow post
23:07
@AkivaWeinberger hi
@AkivaWeinberger oh phew, good I didn't want to be the only one memeing against Danu's wishes
nobody who has enough professional experience in the area to make meaningful comments said this
All I said was "Somebody said this"
@dmho why is my name familiar?
23:14
@MikeMiller Suppose that $K(X) = B(X)$ WTS $dim(X) < \infty$. This is equivalent to proving that given $B_x$ in X it is compact. Suppose $T \in B(X)$ since $T \in K(X)$, so this means that $closure(T(B_x))$ is compact. Since T is continous so the preimage is compact but $B_x$ is contained in the pre-image. Since it is closed subset of the preimage so $B_x$ is compact.
@Adeek The preimage of a compact set does not need to be compact.
any one know the syntax on wolfram to get the inverse of a function ?
T is continuos though.
Even under a continuous map. The constant map is continuous and always has compact image!
oh
23:16
I suggest finding a specific operator that is compact if and only if $X$ is finite dimensional.
Your argument shows that when $X$ is finite dimensional, every operator is compact.
oh never mind i got it
oh I see
maybe the identity operator works.
hm
brb few sec
oh
I think I got it yeah.
it is same argument but little bit changed.
nah nvm its not gonna work.
@MikeMiller so it is exactly as you said. Suppose that X is infinite dimensional then we will prove that $K(X)$ is proper subset of $B(X)$. Take the identity operator and let it act on $B_x$ the ball centered at x of some radius. Then the closed ball can't be compact as X is infinite dimensional.
23:34
Yup
cool.
10 minutes idle! meme incoming!
(don't let @Danu see, he hates memes)
primes are like weed because any positive plant can be uniquely factored into weed?
legalize maths!
23:52
Is something like $\displaystyle \int_0^{\large \frac 1 {2\pi}} \sin \left({ \frac 1 \theta }\right)\, \mathrm d\theta$ a Riemann integral?
or do you need something fancier
does the integral of its absolute value converge?
(it does converge as a riemann integral)
Intuitively it would still converge because it's continuous and bounded
except at $0$

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