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21:00
@MickLH How do you define inverse in this case?
how would you tell if you were at the top level or in the simulation and thers more simulations i.e. probabability of simulation is large
@Semiclassical i.e. God?
Oops, I guess it can't be an isomorphism
@null newtons flaming laser sword
Sorry I am still trying to grasp the formal terminology for all this group field ring shit
21:00
i should say, not scientifically interesting
one can find such questions interesting for non-scientific reasons
@TobiasKildetoft The "inverse" is actually an equivalence class, like the "identity" I think
its like occoms razor but states that things arent interesting scientifically unless there expeiriementally testable
But I don't see non-scientific reasons to find the whole 'the world is a simulation' idea interesting.
@MickLH That is not a definition
What is the opposite of occams razor tho?
(believe anything until its disproven?)
21:02
@Null Maccos blunt object
prove occomz razor to me
Occam's razor is a heuristic principle. It is not an axiom.
its the physical manifestation of p(a and b) $/leq$ p(a), p(b)
@TobiasKildetoft would you be so kind and link to this idea?
Generally, when I talk about probabilities, I can actually test said probabilities.
21:03
@Null That was meant as a joke
occom macco razor blunt...
Very sorry. Give me a moment to try to formalize the idea
@TobiasKildetoft ah ok ;)
Probabilities re: existence and the like are, by their very nature, not testable.
@arctictern I honestly don't understand how this helps me. I don't know what a tensor product is. My idea was to use the fact that $R=\mathbb{M}_n(\mathbb{C})$ is simple so the only algebra homomorphisms $R\to M$ are either injective or the zero map... then to show a homomorphism to $M=\mathbb{C}^n$. But this seems stronger...
21:04
@Semiclassical altho, given a big anough samplesize we can make an intervall of sureness
@user2154420 It is not simple as a left module over itself
For the universe?
impossible
@TobiasKildetoft It's simple as a $\mathbb{C}$-algebra
expanding faster then you can take a sample size
21:05
@Semiclassical hard to do if we are IN it..
If you can only make one measurement and the answer is 'yes' then you're not going to be able to do probabiilties for 'no'
@user2154420 Right, but I assume you are not considering $M$ as a $\mathbb{C}$-algebra?
@Semiclassical well, 1000 years ago, the universe was basicly the solarsystem
@user2154420 Sorry, you even stated "algebra homomorphism" there
@Alessandro i tried. for all r \in R, r = r * 1 = r * (u * u^{-1}) = (r * u) * u^{-1} which must be in the ideal
for unit $u$.
21:06
@TobiasKildetoft I want to show that since $R$ is simple as a $\mathbb{C}$-algebra, then any left $R$-module has dimension at least $n$ over $\mathbb{C}$.
I don't see how that has anything to do with the point at hand
uh put a few more zeroes
and ^^^
@BalarkaSen Ah I see. For the normal derivative, we would have to apply Leibniz's rule for $\partial_\mu(V^\nu e_\nu)$. But the covariant derivative has the $\partial_\mu e_\nu$ term "baked in", so it gets $C^\infty$-linear, which means $D_\mu (V^\nu e_\nu)=(D_\mu v^\nu)e_\nu$. Right?
@TobiasKildetoft So I think I was considering $M$ as a $\mathbb{C}$-algebra
The point to me is that the notion of 'probabilities' for whether or not the universe is actually a simulation seems entirely empty
21:07
@Semiclassical maybe at one point in time we can travel between universes. That doesnt say that there isnt a universe of universes. (say if its too philosophical)
@Semiclassical its well defined in hilbert space
i sincerely doubt that.
looks good @meow, could be written more clearly with something like if $u\in I$ then $u^{-1}\in I$ so $1\in I$ and $r1=r\in I$ for every $r\in R$ but it's correct
or, rather, to the extent that it's well-defined in hilbert space, I sincerely doubt that said well-definition has any operational meaning.
@Alessandro sorry im tired
21:09
Does anybody find this question comprehensible?
why would you be sorry, it was correct
see "the end of time" (a timeless formulation of QM and relativity over Hilbert space) its testable theoretically
@MikeMiller I, as a beginner, no
What's a homotopy of simplices? @MikeMiller
@arctictern If you can't help, that's okay as well. For a prime $\mathfrak{p}$ of a number field $K$ and a prime $\mathfrak{q}$ above $\mathfrak{p}$ in a number field $L$ we look at $K_{\mathfrak{p}}$ and $L_{\mathfrak{q}}$.
21:10
@Semiclassical hell if I know
'Testable theoretically' is itself an empty phrase
in a ring $R$, is $R/S$ defined as all the $rS$?
we could test it if our likely thoughts about the future hold true
@Semiclassical not really, let me elobrate (i need some time=
If it's not a test that can actually be implemented, why should I care?
21:11
@MikeMiller Isn't every simplex just an "n-dimensional tetraeder"? So every simplex, whatever its dimenion, is homotopic to $\{.\}$.
its a test that will be likely implemented actually according to the theory inevitably tested
Yes, but presumably something else is meant.
I just can't parse the question.
@Semiclassical to prove something you can use a truthtable, which is a test for the statement. (i.e. something is equal to whatever)
this is a practical test.
@arctictern And then I want to show that $L_{\mathfrak{q}}$ is a cyclotomic extension of $K_{\mathfrak{p}}$, if $\mathfrak{q}$ is unramified. I have shown that the Galois group is cyclic and I need some hints for the cyclotomic part
ah.. you mean "does god exist" @Semiclassical
21:13
But just hints, not a full answer, I want to do it myself
What?
No, I was talking about the simulation hypothesis.
that one we could test for pixelization
also theres ways to prove it true
@Semiclassical "
'Testable theoretically' is itself an empty phrase"
@Alessandro is the quotient ring $R/S$ defined as the set of all the $rS$?
but any theory is at its route probably true or probably not true
21:14
Whether God exists is similarly a question I'd regard as not properly scientific, but I can at least see non-scientific reasons why it's interesting.
With the simulation hypothesis, I don't even see that much.
it has philosphical implications
i.e is simulating a universe then pressing off murder in some sense
@Semiclassical if you are the programmer of a VR(virt reality) then you are some kind of god or not?
This needs a rigorous definition of "God"...
best not
I really don't see how any of this is at all interesting. That's my real objection: I just find it boring.
It's a philosophical dead end.
@Semiclassical and that's ok ;)
(i agree)
(with quadruple e lol)
21:17
I mean, consider the fact that we're having this discussion at all.
that's predicated on our common belief that we can actually have meaningful opinions and disagreements about such matters.
you define an equivalence relation on $R$ given by $x\sim y$ iff $x-y\in S$ (where $S$ is the ideal you're taking the quotient by), $R/S$ is the quotient set $R/\sim$ with operations given by $[a]+[b]=[a+b]$ and $[a][b]=[ab]$, where $[a]=a+S$ so the elements look like $a+S$, not $aS$ @meow
what if you simulated a universe you made a ball in the universe behind you then you turned around and see the same ball... makes sense in nested determenistic simulations
can you make such a universe now? If not, I frankly don't care.
alas i cannot yet
anyone here familiar with filters and ultrafilters? I have a few basic questions
21:19
A philosophical problem which would imply the emptiness of philosophical argument is, by its very nature, pointless.
my point of view about mathematicians: they are not (the scum of philosophians)
If it's true, then the argument is not meaningful. If it's not, then the argument is wrong.
Either way, the argument is not interesting.
i understand
the only objection i would have is if true it implies quantum immortality which is inevetiablly tested and can be performed right now by anyone depressed enough
(i.e. suicide)
To put it a little differently: To the extent that I find religion/theology interesting, it is how such questions weigh upon our actions, i.e. how we live our lives and such.
The speculative aspect of it I find almost entirely uninteresting.
21:22
i like it
i mean the definition
some actions don't require any thought of us tho...
(i.e. sweating)
but thought can regulate those actions
or any kind of reflexian action
meh. quantum immortality is boring, but nonlocal correlations are interesting
precisely because I can test the latter but not the former.
@Semiclassical i can prove, that in this universe with the actual laws, i am by definition immortal.
21:25
@Alessandro so the elements are of the form $r + I$ for quotient ring $R/I$, and addition is given by $(r + s) + I$ and multiplication is given by $(rs)+I$?
(but it requires that the laws are axioms)
@meow yes
you should prove that those operations are well defined
@TobiasKildetoft I haven't disappeared, I've just been trying to figure out how to communicate this concept succinctly :(
what do you mean "well defined"?
@MickLH a synonym would be crisp=succinctly. (i think)
21:27
Any philosophical proof that can be contradicted by a sufficiently hard punch to the face is not a good proof.
since they are operations between equivalence classes you should show that they do not depend on the choice of a representative @meow
@Null lol
if $[a]=[c]$ then we expect $[a+b]=[c+b]$ for example @meow
You seem to go for proof by intimidation then
snerk.
when it comes to philosophy, I'm not too upset by it, no.
21:28
the alt-text in that comic is great too @krijn
@Krijn so your point is: proof by imitation sucks?
@arctictern Revision: I think I understand that the sum decomposition would show the dimension is at least $n$. But I want to show that using the fact that $R$ is simple... where does simplicity come into the argument?
@Alessandro I assume you're not referring to filters as in FIR / IIR filters that a lowly engineer could so ungracefully brutalize for you?
my point was more: A proof of immortality has the distinct problem that it's contradicted by me punching you so hard that you die.
no, I'm referring to filters as in set theory or topology @mick
21:30
ah but only from your perspective @Semiclassical
yes, and that's the only one that I can ever make use of in any case.
@Alessandro so if $R/I$ is a field for some $I$, then what can we conclude about $R$? sorry im having trouble
@Semiclassical in fact, it would help me to prove it for myself lol
(but i get your point)
wouldnt that imply that $R$ is a field?
Maybe another way to put it: You think quantum immortality is a thing? Great, test it and get back to me.
(i don't mean that literally, but that is roughly the level of respect i have for it)
21:32
no, for a simple example $\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$ is a field but $\mathbb{Z}$ is not @meow
eventually i will but not a day before i have to
oooo I can fix one of the variables to zero without any real loss of generality
can i say that $R$ has unity?
SORRY: i just want to say: if you can't answer the questions of an arbitary person on a subject, then you dont understand the subject!
21:33
What if the person doesn't speak English?
then you don't understand it
(laugning my ass off right now)
Hm, I'm not sure @meow, if you take the quotient of an euclidean domain by the ideal generated by an irreducible element you'll get a field, but I don't know how much can be said in the other direction
technically if you wrote everything down in symbolic logic you could still explain it without them speaking english you just cant guarentee mutual understanding of the symbols
21:36
This feels dangerously close to the chinese room problem
@shaihorowitz to ensure that you could draw "sufficent" enough pictures
its kinda where i'm going
@Alessandro the thing is since $R/I$ is a field, for every $u + I \in R/I$, there exists a $v + I \in R/I$ such that $(u + I)(v + I) = (1 + I)$. Therefore, for every $u \in R$, wouldn't there be the same $v$ such that $uv = 1$, by definition of multiplication on quotient rings
Ok so first, what do I call a finite set where every element belongs to an equivalence class of an element of a smaller set?
no, take as an example $\mathbb{Z}/3\mathbb{Z}$, in this field $2\times2=4$, but $4=1$ since they are in the same equivalence class, while this does not happen in $\mathbb{Z}$ @meow
21:38
@shaihorowitz chinese room problem is interesting. (from the philosphical aspect)
I think as an example of that, you could take $Z_{10}$ and take the equivalence relation to be addition mod 5
semiclass and i have our differences but thats good
you've got 10 elements to start with, but then you end up with only 5 distinct equivalence classes
Differences don't mean: nuke everything. (i hope so)
@Alessandro this is confusing :[
21:40
After this election, I'm -really- hoping so.
(For a concrete example: The integers modulo $2n$ and the integers modulo $n$. Can we call the latter a subgroup of the former?)
no they mean that we can both have jobs in math working on different problems and benifet from each others successs
on the other hand: nulcear death is short and exciting, nothing to be feared of
@Null not if you die from fallout / radiation
the world is not a zero sum game people
21:41
there's no hurry, first of all how many elements does $\mathbb{Z}/3\mathbb{Z}$ have and what do they look like? @meow
@meow-mix well theres always the rope to hang yurself, but i get your point
@Alessandro $[0], [1], [2]$.
@shaihorowitz care to elobrate?
in particular $[0]=\{...\}$?
@Alessandro {...,-3,0,3,6,...}
21:42
@MickLH $(\mathbb{Z}/2n\mathbb{Z})/(2(\mathbb{Z}/2n\mathbb{Z})) \cong \mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}$
look at technology it makes everyones lives better not just the people who made them. math research doesnt only help the person who publishes but everyone who reads something from the publications and is inspired we have progress not stalled as it would be in a zero sum game (game theory)
(Which is $3\mathbb{Z}$, that's not a coincindence, in $R/I$ the additive identity is $I$, but that's a proof for another time) @meow
its a positive sum game
(both players do better by playing)
rather then the net gain = 0
sorry i should have just said $3\mathbb{Z}$
so up to isomorphism, yes. @MickLH
21:44
now, we decided that $[2]+[2]=[2+2]=[4]$, but $[4]$ is not among the $3$ elements you listed @meow
(literally, no, since we call the elements different things. but that's not necessarily a very interesting distinction.)
but [4] = [1]
@shaihorowitz so in FACT: i help someone $\rightarrow$ I help myself (altho maybe inidrectly)
yeah the selfish argument of selflessness
yep, actually I meant $[2][2]=[2\times 2]$, sorry @meow
21:46
man i wanted to prove this since im 17, now it seems obvious @shaihorowitz
game theory is a cool branch of math
so $2$ (let's omit the brackets for the sake of commodity) is its own multiplicative inverse in $\mathbb{Z}/3\mathbb{Z}$, but that doesn't imply that the same is true in $\mathbb{Z}$ @meow
@shaihorowitz but in gametheory a<b<c<a is perfectly fine. thatswhy i dont "like" it :/
only sometimes and in those cases you can usually find a more advanced probablistic equilibrium
you might find voting theory interesting
21:49
@Alessandro well i feel stupid now, because i was wrong and i dont know how to do this problem still
is equilibrium a synonym for "nash equilibrium" (or vice versa)
e.g. you can easily come up with a set of voters whose preferences are such that, if you ask them about A vs. B, B vs. C, and C vs. A
which problem @meow?
then they'll prefer A > B, B>C and yet C>A
even though no individual voter has such an intransitive preference.
21:50
prove that if M is an ideal such that R/M is a field, then M is a maximal ideal
R has identity
@meow-mix may i ask you, how old are you?
but you can usually determine which has the higer probability of winning out of A B C in those cases unless everthing is insanely equal
13 and a half
@Null
@meow-mix i feel now a little bit dumber hehe
21:52
@Alessandro what conclusions about $R$ can i make given that circumstance
I'm not sure off the top of my head but I can't think about it right now, sorry
sorry to bother
@meow sorry my abstract algebra is lacking right now got rusty
something about the only maximal ideal that contains identity is R
mmh to the whole "a devides b" stuff, can someone give a "not evading" proof?
no problem
21:58
3 hours ago, by Daniel Cortild
Hmmm... I still don't understand the proof, and I am searching an elementary proof! Like just using some of the basic theorems and things like that... If anyone could help... Here is the problem: Show that there is an infinity of $a$'s so that if $a$ divides $(x+y)^5-x^5-y^5$ then it must divide $(x+y)^7-x^7-y^7$... Anyone?
i think a good assumtion is that: "a is an element of a infinite field"
(otherwise its quite trivial to disprove)
if a divides (x+y),x,y its trivial
if $(x+y)^5-x^5-y^5$ is natural does it follow that x,y is natural. i think so
then it follows that $(x+y)^7-x^7-y^7$ is natural
@shaihorowitz i dont know this, and would bebhapy to see a proof about that, but continue ;)
i'm just thinking and typing
(if bla is natural then x,y is natural)
ok! ;)
my conjecture is: proving it via the ex falso quod libet argument is shorter
22:09
I know this is unrelated to math, but since there's like no one in tex room, any idea how to center an image (which is a graph) in the middle of a page in sharelatex? I tried every code, but nothing seems to work lol..
set $(x+y)^5-x^5-y^5=a$ and $(x+y)^7-x^7-y^7=m$ then a,m are divisible by x*y
if $a | x$ and $a | xy$, is that sufficient to prove $a | y$? im a lil rusty
@shaihorowitz yeah both can have an xy factored out of them
no @meow
No
$a|x \implies a|xy$
2 devides 2 and 6 but 3 does not devide 2
22:10
but, like $3 | 3$ and $3 | 6 \not\implies 3 | 2$
i was thinking the opposite
@Hiro, if the image is a picture, use \begin{center}YOURPICTURE/end{center}.
@meow-mix if a devides xy, then (a devides x) or (a devided y)
(an inclusive or, like and/or)
hi guys
i need help
can anyone help me with math question ?
post it
22:19
That probably depends on what the question is, but: "Just ask; don't ask to ask"
ok sorry i will
@Kirill It still doesn't work
how can i do tripple integrals
i just cant see the bounds of integrations
I can give specific question if that helps
yes please do
ok tripple integral (x^2+y^2) dxdydz
22:21
well first integrate with respect to x
the region D : x^2+y^2-1< z <1
oh
you would want to use polar coordinates
cylindrical, i mean
you have that
x^2 + y^2 = r^2
x =rcost
y= rsint
z=z ?
no thats parametric
i jmean
not parametric
wait, yes it is
hmm ok i got them
22:23
anyways, you have x^2 + y^2 = r^2
but how do i get better at visualising them ?
\theta = tan^{-1}(y/x)
and, z = z
so your bounds are r^2 - 1< z < 1
theres no bound on \theta, so all the slices of $z$ are going to be circles
now, we have that r^2 - 1 < z < 1
so for all z < 1
the radius squared, minus 1 must be less than z
so, i believe this would be a conic shape
lol, europian is the new asian haha
thanks meow
@Null what?
22:25
but how in genreral do i get better at visualising thesE?
just think of it like that
what does it mean for theta to be unbounded?
@meow-mix its just a cliche to assume that asians are geniuses at math ;)
well, all of the circles are "whole" circles
from 0 to 2pi ?
well, yes, but past 2pi its the same
so theres no bound just means all the "circle" slices are full
22:26
ah ok
if, however
you had a bound like $0 < \theta < \pi$
it would only be "half" the cone
ok i got it thanks :d
the part of the cone where x > 0
is there a way to find out if my solution is right or wrong ?
because i dont have the solution manual
1. check the answer key in your book
2. type it into wolfram alpha
3. if all else fails, feel free to come here and ask
@Null i would consider myself less of a genius and more of a hard worker.
22:28
ok thanks you mate
if, that was what you were referring to
np
oh shit i have amc8 tomorrow
its going to be fun to watch me break under pressure :]
@meow-mix you are a good human, thats all i say :)
@Null i'm sure the same could be said about you, based on our previous encounters
is it safe to assume that the only ideals in division rings are ${0}$ and $R$ because all non-zero elements are units?
@shaihorowitz so the "real" gametheory would say: theres always a game outside of the game?
thats hard to talk about game outside a game, but it lets you think about theorems at meta levels yeah
22:41
@AndyMiles Well, not really. All I meant was that you can write $D_\mu(\sum_i V^i e_i)$ as $\sum D_\mu(V^i e_i)$. They are simply denoting $V^i e_i$ by $V^i$, using the canonical identification with $\Bbb R^n$ by sending $e_i$ to the basis vectors, in the equation (3) you quoted.
Look at the comments below the answer in the source you linked for (3). That'd clarify.
@BalarkaSen maybe you can help me with something that I am seeing correctly.
Let G be a group of order 12 with following presentation $<a,b : a^3 = b^4 = e, bab^{-1}a = e>$. Find the center Z(G). So I proved that any $c \in G$ is of the form of $a^ib^j$.
@shaihorowitz just as a mathematical approach: would it make sense to say "everyone is a winner" in respect to the whole "hell-heaven"-thing? (just say if it is too broad)
do you guys have any text recommendations for a book about ring and field theory at an undergraduate level?
I also proved that $b^ja = ab^j$ and $a^ib = ba^i$.
@meow-mix Artin.
22:47
I am guessing here that the $Z(G) = \{e\}$
i would need to look into the specifics and i'm to busy sorr @null
but I am stuck at this point
I want to show that $a^{i}b^{j} = e$ if I pick $c \in Z(G)$ I showed that it must satisfy $b^ja = ab^j$ and $a^ib = ba^i$.
any idea ?
@null i'll pm you later
@shaihorowitz haha, the "specifics" thats punny ;)
@shaihorowitz thanks!
@BalarkaSen chapters 11-16?
22:51
how do you PM someone on stackexchange?
(open chat with somebody?)
You don't.
Yeah I think so
And ping them using @
@Adeek Why don't you pick another random element $g$ from $G$, write it as $g = a^k b^l$ and see what happens if you commute them?
oh ok. I will try that.
I haven't done the computation, but I'd check $k = 0$ and $l =0$ cases first.
22:53
I asked earlier but that there are different people now, anyone familiar with filters and ultrafilters who has some time for a couple basic questions?
@meow-mix Yep.
@Alessandro I don't know much about those, admittedly, so I pass.

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