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00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

19:00
yeah and does there exist some short notation for that?
or only $2\in X\subset A$?
Thats as short as it gets
That isn't correct, @saturatedexpo. You need to use epsilon symbol instead of the subset symbol.
A math history question: what is the etymology of the term "associativity" as it applies to products? It doesn't seem obvious.
@ShinKim you mean $2\in X\in A$?
what's new
19:05
Yup
yeah makes sense, but isnt $\{2,3\}$ also a subset?
or would $\{\{2,3\}\}$ be?
the latter one, yes.
@s.harp Makes perfect sense now, thanks. ...guess I could've googled.
and are the sets in a powerset an element or a subset of the powerset? Example: $A\subset M$, is then $A\in P(M)$ or $A\subset P(M)$?
19:09
@saturatedexpo The latter.
The power set of $M$ is a set whose elements are the subsets of $M$.
He's saying the power set of $M$, not $A$
Then $A\in\mathcal{P}(M)$ is the correct one.
@ShinKim $A$ in my case is arbitrary, but I've edited it.
@BalarkaSen hey
hi @Ali
And $P(M)\backslash A\not=M\backslash A$ right?
if $A\subset M$ (if thats even useful info)
19:14
P(M) doesn't contain A
actually $P(M)\backslash A=P(M)$?
because of the above
@saturatedexpo Right. It's like trying to do $\Bbb Z \setminus 0$ instead of $\Bbb Z \setminus \{0\}$---it's rather meaningless.
You can't say $\mathcal{P}(M)$ does not contain $A$.
Think about ordinals, for instance.
19:16
so with a example: $\{1\}\backslash 1=\{1\}$
@ShinKim Well, yes, strictly speaking you're right: $P(\emptyset) = \{\emptyset\}$ and this has $\emptyset$ as both an element and a subset.
Yup.
@Fargle $\{\emptyset\}$ is a subset of $\{\emptyset\}$, not $\emptyset$.
@BalarkaSen $\emptyset \subset A$ for any set $A$.
19:18
oh, good point
Heya @Semi
is $S(M,N)$ for all bijective functions between M and N a known notation or just a made up example?
Tonight the UK celebrates the execution of a terrorist with fireworks
I haven't seen that.
19:20
The UK seems to be a strange land.
S stands for 's'ymmetric group, I guess @saturatedexpo
Except these fireworks go on all night
hey @BalarkaSen
@ShinKim makes sense. didn't thought about the S too much ;)
19:22
Does that make sense if M, N are uncountable?
@AliCaglayan Sure, as long as they have the same cardinality.
A bijection always forces the domain and codomain to be of the same cardinality anyway
Like, you can't have $S(\Bbb R, \mathcal{P}(\Bbb R))$, but...
Sure but what would that look like as a group
S(R, R)
I have never seen something like that before
It's just the symmetric group on R-many elements
19:24
that would be a long list haha
@AliCaglayan It would just be the group of all permutations of the reals under composition.
And there should be a natural bijection S(R, R) -> P(R)?
we start with a groupoid G
Groupoid is a category whose all morphisms are isomorphisms
why is a group a groupoid with a single object ?
I mean won't Aut_G(*) be a single element ?
no
Not all automorphisms are the same
$f\in S(M,N)$, and $a\in M$ show that $f_{M\backslash \{a\}}:M\backslash \{a\}\to N\backslash \{f(a)\}$ is bijective too. Is this easy to show?
19:28
Take an example. Say the fundamental groupoid (not sure if you're familiar with that)
yeah ok
is it the same as the topology one in munkres @BalarkaSen ?
That's the fundamental group, not the groupoid.
no I mean before defining the fundmental group he did it with
I don't remember it. Maybe.
paths not ending in the same point.
19:30
Why do you think Aut_G(*) will have one element?
The fundamental groupoid is the groupoid whose objects are points in a path connected space X and morphisms are paths from one point to another, modulo path-homotopy.
so we have the isomorphisms from a single point
from a single point to itself no ?
yeah
ok with you @BalarkaSen
Aut(*) is not in general trivial there, 'cuz that's precisely the fundamental group of X based at *.
Lots of inequivalent loops based at * (aka isomorphisms * --> *)
oh ok
oh I see
I guess I am getting my intuition from set theory
@saturatedexpo You mean $M\setminus\{a\}\sim N\setminus\{f(a)\}$
19:35
I like that picture of the fundamental groupoid though. It's like a "bundle of groups", with $\pi_1(X, x_0)$ assigned to the point $x_0$ in $X$.
When $X$ is path connected all of these "group fibers" are isomorphic.
yeah
The isomorphism is also very explicit: it's "moving the group fiber over $x_0$ to the group fiber over $x_1$ by a path joining the two"!
I have never thought of it like this. Cute.
that is nice
ok that is cute way of thinking about groups haha
I think that bundle of groups, thought of as a principle bundle, should be exactly the universal cover of $X$.
Weird stuff. I guess that way the fundamental groupoid encodes a lot more information.
yeah
19:44
@BalarkaSen That shouldn't surprise you: that's how the universal cover is usually constructed as a set (points + homotopy classes of loops based at that point), similarly to how the orientation double cover is constructed etc
@ShinKim what does ~ mean?
Set equivalence, or equipotent. Means there's a bijection btwn those two
which also means they have the same cardinality.
so i show equipotence and im done?
Yes.
@MikeMiller Agreed; I guess I never realized that the very definition of fundamental groupoid does all that for me.
19:50
looks simpler now, isn't it? :D
doesn't really get me going in the morning
But yeah, that's precisely how one constructs the universal cover, as path-homotopy classes of paths starting at a specific point etc. I guess I am more used to constructing it by gluing togather U x pi_1 with the monodromy informations.
@ShinKim can i say that this holds for infinite sets obviously, or do i have to prove it? but then finite sets are still left.
You need to prove it
I mean keep in mind that the groupoid is not topologized
19:57
true, but it admits a natural one, modulo nicety conditions on X.
Is $\Bbb S^1\times \Bbb S^2$ basically A ball minus a smaller ball with the dijoint sets of the boundary glued together?
@ShinKim just for clarity $f_{M\backslash \{a\}}$ can be completly different from $f$ and should be called something else for clarity?
I prefer thinking about it as two solid torii glued along the boundary torii by the identity map.
how do you mean?
20:00
think of S^2 as union of the two hemispheres to see what I mean.
@BalarkaSen At which point you're not really packaging any information together, you've just given me the original space again and told me to pay attention to paths!
Ok, you've got me. I give up.
Mike Miller the Miller
Well, it's okay for me but yeah, it'll be better if you name it something different.
@saturatedexpo
Is there an operation of gluing the disjoint sets of a space together?
20:05
You want quotient spaces here.
so a function on $R\backslash \{2\}$ can still be a legit function, even tho it would have a gap if you try to plot in on $R$, because every $r\in R$ gets mapped to something?
Hey girls.
Not been in here lately. Sorry about that.
wow this room is full!
@BalarkaSen hmm yeah I guess
given $z = 3x^2 - y^2 + 2x$ isn't $\nabla f(x,y) = (6x + 2)\vec{e}_x + 2y\vec{e}_y$?
20:07
@s.harp alot of people like math :D
@Obliv what is f?
Well,, you mean something like $1/(x-2)$, @saturatedexpo ?
Sorry, I meant f(x,y) which is z, @ali
yes @ShinKim
Sure
20:09
I confirmed with wolfram alpha this is the gradient of the function.
@Obliv $-2y\mathbf{e}_y$.
it should be -2y
damn beat me to it
I meant -2y**
yeah then thats correct
Today I learned that if you don't take the axiom of choice you can find a model of set theory which has strictly amorphous sets:
That is a set that is infinite but is not the disjoint union of any two other infinite sets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_set
3
20:11
anyway, I did it right in my notes but for some reason $\nabla f(x,y) \cdot \vec{P_0P} = 0$ isn't giving me the eq. of a tangent plane that I desire. $P = (1,-2,1)$ so I just do $(6(1) + 2)(x-1) - (2(-2))(y+2) + 1(z-1) = 0$ ?
anyone know good algorithms for factoring gaussian integers? I'm currently using something roughly equivalent to trial division
It's always counter-intuitive when it comes to AoC D:
then I'm left with z = -8x - 4y + 1 but the answer should be z = 8x + 4y + 1
@Obliv That doesn't even make any sense.
@s.harp it never had a choice...
20:15
$\nabla f(x, y)$ lives in R^2, P0P lives in R^3...
gaussian integers are a UFD
@AliCaglayan So if you don't let things have choice they can become scary. But there are also some things that are scary because of choice being available to them.
@s.harp basically politics
I don't even know what a gaussian integer is
@balarka oh so then should it be $\nabla f(x,y,z)$ where $f(x,y,z) = -z + 3x^2 - y^2 + 2x$ then?
20:18
a+bi where i^2=-1 and a,b are integers
OH
yeah then that gives the right gradient so that i get $8x + 4y + 1 - z = 0$
4 messages moved from Charcoal HQ
hmm but then it asks for the normal line on the surface at the point specified. Shouldn't the normal line just be $\nabla f$ parametrized? so $f_x\mid_{x=1} = 8 \to x(t) = 1 + 8t$ or something?
@BalarkaSen When do products distribute over coproducts?
@Obliv Normal is spanned by $\nabla$, correct.
@AliCaglayan Products and coproducts of what?
20:22
In general categorys
I mean I was trying to think about direct product of spaces and connected sums
Do they distribute?
Manifolds' coproduct is disjoint union. The connected sum is not a coproduct.
also, that.
Was thinking pointed manifolds before, ignore that. Sorry.,
20:24
Well I thought since $\pi_1$ is a functor of sorts
and is the free product not the coproduct in the category of groups?
so then why isn't $\#$ a coproduct
I don't understand why you think $\pi_1$ being a functor and free product being coproduct in Grp implies # is coproduct too.
oh yeah that is silly
They don't even commute! $\pi_1(M \# N) = \pi_1(M) * \pi_1(N)$ is only true for dim > 2.
20:28
can only dim > 2 be considered?
I mean, sure, why not. But it's still not a coproduct.
The correct thing along these lines is that $\pi_1$ preserves pushouts, which is the statement of Siefert-van Kampen.
@BalarkaSen with connected intersection, yes
right, thanks.
Why is this room so popular today?
20:31
It could be that we're all lovely people. It could also be that the old glitch where people don't leave rooms even when they close the tab is back.
The first one is more likely
I asked about algorithms in the programming room and they haven't left yet
@MikeMiller or rather; just do pushouts on the category of path-connected spaces. those are path-connected.
So I have seen that $\#_{i \in \Bbb N} S^2$ is just an open ended cylinder, but doesn't that mean $\#_{i \in \Bbb Z} S^2$ is a cylinder. I am having trouble understanding why the first and second constructions should be different
Or am I being stupid and they are both just one ended cylinders?
20:37
The first is homeomorphic to S^2 minus a point, second is S^2 minus two points.
$\Bbb N$ has one end - you can go to infinity in exactly one way. $\Bbb Z$ has two ends.
But if you indexed it differently surely they are the same thing
Which is why the indexing is important.
So the indexing is what determines the space not the index
Picture a line of spheres in $\Bbb R^3$, one at each value $x=i$, $i \in \Bbb N$ or $\Bbb Z$, respectively.
You have one way to walk off to infinity in one, and two ways to walk off to infinity in the other. They're not homeomorphic.
20:40
is this statement right? with the same ability to prove problems. i can have 149 IQ in one population, and 70 IQ in another population.
Is it notational ambiguity then?
The notation is quite clear in what you wrote down though.
I mean if I consider some indexing set like $\Bbb Z \times \Bbb N$ now its a sphere minus 3 points
What is the property of the indexing set that gives the structure
If you told me you were taking the connected sum over that I would expect you get a surface of infinite genus.
Z x N is not what you want there.
20:43
Because in my mind, when you are gluing these spheres together, because the operation is commutative it doesn't matter where you glue them
@AliCaglayan That is only true for finite connected sums.
And keep in mind that the well-definedness of connected sum is itself quite delicate.
How are infinite connected sums defined then
Isn't the formal definition of connected sum "cut holes and mash em together?"
20:47
@AndrewThompson The holes can carry different orientations.
Two ball embeddings into each manifold and glue them togeter right
Indeed, even for just two manifolds you can take connected sum in two different ways (and get two nonhomeomorphic manifolds in that process sometimes).
Yesh, it was a joke.
(Albeit a bad one.)
Now I'm going to google "albeit" and check if I used it correctly.
Nah, it wasn't. I am just saying, make it "cut holes taking care of orientations and smash em togather"
Then that's a fine formal definition.
@AliCaglayan I mean, as appropriate quotient spaces. There's not an actual formal meaning of $\#_{\Bbb N} S^2$. But I think it's obvious what you mean.
20:50
What is that a direct limit of sorts?
what is the maximum horizon you can get when you can only adjust your height?
In this case it's "Let $D_i \subset S^2$ be a small disc around either the west pole or the east pole, $i = 0$ corresponding to west, $i=1$ corresponding to east. Consider $S^2 \times \Bbb N$, and in the $k$th factor, where $k>0$, delete the interiors of the $D_i$, and for $k=0$ delete only the east factor. Then glue them together in the obvious way."
half of the earth sphere?
I guess @AndrewT didn't like my improved definition.
@AliCaglayan I guess, sure. There is a map $\#_n S^2 \to \#_{n-1} S^2$ given by collapsing the last sphere you glued on. (But one has to be careful here because connected sum isn't functorial or anything.)
Then $\#_{\Bbb N}$ is the colimit of this. $\#_{\Bbb Z}$ involves you collapsing the outermost two spheres in a connected sum of $(2n+1)$ spheres at each stage.
20:52
@BalarkaSen Eh, it's probably fine. I've never used connected sums in my life so I don't consider myself a qualified judge.
@MikeMiller that makes sense
A load of bob dylans art is in an exhibition near where I live
Oh, congrats on your seminar, @Danu. What did you talk about?
A section out of Milnor & Stasheff's book on characteristic classes :P Nothing of research level ;)
20:54
@BalarkaSen
@MikeMiller
1
Q: Mapping into the Hilbert cube - where is compactness needed?

Forever MozartI am not sure why $X$ is assumed to be compact in the Lemma below. It seems to me that the proof would work fine if $X$ is any metric space (with metric $\varrho$). Am I correct? By the way $|g-f|$ is defined to be $\sup\{|g(x)-f(x)|:x\in X\}$, and $\mathscr I=[0,1]$, and $\aleph_0=\ome...

@PVAL-inactive
@Danu We're still just kids so we shouldn't worry about "research level". Glad it went well
@AndrewThompson Yeah, it was nice.
Now I'm trying to understand Chern classes again... Some minor nuisances in technical lemmata are annoying me
@ForeverMozart I pass.
It has to be a typo.
they must have meant "Let $X$ be metric."
@ForeverMozart don't use pictures from textbooks :(
20:57
@ForeverMozart Why is $|g-f|$ well-defined if $X$ is not compact?
I subconsciously made an infinitisimal progress on a topology problem I have been given to think. I wish I had more time to spend on it.
@BalarkaSen what is it
@MikeMiller
well, $g$ and $f$ map into $[0,1]$
OK, then you're fine. That was the only thing that jumped at me.
20:59
so for any $x$ we have $|g(x)-f(x)|\in [0,1]$
@AliCaglayan Probably not very exciting at a glance. Computing fundamental group of complement of a bunch of elliptic curves inside a complex abelian surface.
@MikeMiller very good though, I did not think about that
@BalarkaSen what are the curves
Where did that come from?
Kuratowski Topology
its from the 70s
21:02
@MikeMiller Dunno. The person who gave it promised to elaborate once I actually gave it some thoughts; and I've been not thinking on it as long as I can remember. I guess I can just ask him.
It's probably not known or something.
I suppose it's more than just "well, computing fundamental group of random quasiprojective varieties is hard".
nvm
21:18
@BalarkaSen What is the problem exactly?
Don't bother much with it.
What is a good book on knots
Rolfsen is nice but I have never tried reading it
That price tag
£200 paperback
£53 hardcover
Too bad the book pirates have a pdf online
@Danu you seem familiar
21:33
hello, i have that $\phi$ is convex and pair can i say that $\phi(\frac12(2|u_n-u+u|)\leq \frac12 [\phi(2|u_n-u|)+\phi(2|u|)]$
thank you
@JessyCat OK.
21:46
$f:R\to R$ is bijective and continuous. does that mean that $f$ can't have extremums?
(local ones i mean)
no
You can prove that if $\max f(A)=b$ for some neighbourhood A in R then b has to be an endpoint or else you break bijectivity and continuity
similar argument for the other extremum
So no local extrema
22:03
i should have used $\mathbb{R}$?
(i thought R is only really used for the reals^^)
hi, what is the formulae for the total in terms of n being the number of the row, in terms of n?
1
111
11111
1111111
each row is 2n-1
Hint: $111=10^2+10^1+10^0$
the integral could be n^2
wait n^2 works..
prove it
not sure how your hint helps me? can you explain where you got it?
22:18
you should have made your picture not this way
I can't prove it
every row is 2n-1
lets check your assumtion on n=1
i got into maths too old in life
1^2=1, check
now use the rest of unduction
induction
i was too lazy at higher maths a school
i just bought the xbox
22:19
assume it holds for some n
then the total for the n+1th line, has to be (n+1)^2
everything up the nth line is by assumtion n^2
and we have n^2+n+1=(n+1)^2
$(n+1)^2=n^2+2n+1\not=n^2+n+1$
I can tell im going to enjoy this room
mmh, either theres a basic failure in my proof or it indeed doesnt hold
ah lol
now i know my fail
what is it
i write the prove down :d
suppose the sum of all rows together is $n^2$
each row is $2n-1$
for n=1:
$2\cdot 1-1=1=1^2$

assume for some n:

$1+3+5+...+2n-1=n^2$

Then

$1+3+5+...+(2n-1)+(2(n+1)-1)=(n+1)^2$

The first stuff is exchanged by our assumtion.

$n^2+(2n+2-1)=(n+1)^2$

$n^2+2n+1=(n+1)^2$

which is true
@SuperUberDuper
thx, but what is $ and cdot?
22:34
oh, you have to use chatjax
tinyurl.com/cfqcvpc and follow instructions :)
is it a plugin?
(if you are not on a moble phone here)
for chrome
you only have to make a bookmark
then click it every time you visit math chat
Is the zeroth Chern character just the rank of the vector bundle?
22:36
otherwise you will see lots of dollarsigns and strange stuff ;)
@Danu You mean Chern class, not character. And the 0th Chern class is 1.
ok) I don't quite get the 2nd last line of your proof @saturatedexpo
n2+(2n+2−1)=(n+1)2n2+(2n+2−1)=(n+1)2
all stuff before our (n+1)th line is by assumtion n^2
therefore we can exchange that stuff
man this sort of stuff makes professional programming look easy
@MikeMiller No, I mean character.
22:41
you can bet that i find programming as hard as you find math
ah gotcha
lol maybe, have you tried?
@Danu There is no such thing as the 0th Chern character. The Chern character is the Chern character is the Chern character.
this proof stuff is so elegant
and convenient
@MikeMiller Not in my definitions.
i tried programming, never really got out of really basic calculating programs. window-programming and arrays where my brick wall.
22:43
Bad definitions. Anyway, the part of the Chern character in degree zero is indeed the rank.
I looked at some other notes too, and they also separate the different parts.
Why would you call that bad?
@saturatedexpo If you ever feel keen to try again, try to solve some of the exercises on Project Euler. They dig more at the computer science (i.e. mathy) side of programming and don't require you to be good at window programming.
The whole point of defining the Chern character is that, taken all together, it respects direct sum and tensor products of bundles. There's no other reason to write it down.
So there's no reason to cut it up.
Oh, I see.
@saturatedexpo What language did you start in?
22:47
@Fargle my first experience was in Access (was some database stuff). i managed to program a game with it as a kid lol. then some pascal. and because of conveniency c++ at the end. But i wouldn't call myself experienced in any of those, just did what i wanted there ;)
@saturatedexpo Makes sense. You might like Python if you decide to go for it again.
@Fargle i'm a firm believer that every child should program instead of playing videogames. my life would be far better^^
@saturatedexpo I hit a balance when I did both, haha.
mmh. if g maps elements that way: x->f(x). does g try to mimic f?
(the sets of g are slightly different then those from f, missing exactly 1 element)
The hole assignment: let $f\in S(M,N)$ and $a\in M$. Show that $g:M\backslash\{a\}\to N\backslash \{a\}, x\mapsto f(x)$ is also bijective.
so g tries to mimic f right?
one would usually call that the restriction of $f$ to $M\setminus\{a\}$, it is the same as $f$, but on a restricted domain
22:59
yes it's indeed called $f_{M\backslash \{a\}}$, i just called it g, so i get it right for myself.
the codomain is also restricted, so actually i know it is true, but i have problems to show it.
the codomain is $N\backslash \{f(a)\}$
suppose that $g$ isn't injective, you'll easily get a contradiction
if g isnt injective, f can' be. which is a contradiction to the givens. you mean like that?
@Alessandro let g be not injective. Then there exist $x,y\in M\backslash \{a\}$ with $x\not=y$ and f(x)=f(y). Because f is bijektive and therefore injective, this is a contradiction.
23:37
hall of the undead?
you can do a very similar argument to show that $g$ must be surjective
let g be not surjective. then there exist one $n\in N\backslash \{f(a)\}$ for that there is no $x\in M\backslash \{a\}$ with f(x)=n. This is clearly a condradiction but i fail to convince myself of it.
my thoughts are: f is bijective. therefore if $x\not=a$ then $f(x)\in N\backslash \{f(a)\}$
but i dont know if that counts as a proof
23:53
Can anyone take a look at re-try at this proof given by the link: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1995447/if-19x2-then-19x
$\not |$ looks awkward
just an observation^^
Yeah but last time I wrote 19 does not divide I pretty much got scolded for poor formatting
the negation of any statement A->B is: A AND not B
or is contraposition not a negation?
contraposition not negation
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