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17:01
I do, I am actually thinking about it (along the lines of how I was thinking of it before). But I'll be honest that I don't really have an answer for your structure group question.
You need to check by hand @DemCodeLines. For example, in $\Bbb Z_8$, we have $1^2=3^2=5^2=7^2=1$ mod $8$ !!
It's all about structure groups. You won't get it otherwise.
does somebody here speak german?
@TedShifrin In this case, x squared divided by 8 has to have a remainder of 1. In my question, it has to have a remainder of 0 when divider by 17.
I suppose the fact that it's a $\Bbb Z/2$ class gives some hint, Balarka, but ...
@DemCodeLines: I understand that. I'm telling you that in $\Bbb Z_8$, the equation $x^2-1=0$ has four solutions, not two.
So you have to explicitly check that you have only two solutions in your case. Just do it.
17:04
Don't let your dreams be dreams
@TedShifrin One quick q: why is it 1 mod 8 in your example, because you added one to each side so it became $x^2 = 1$?
Right. I wanted as simple an example as I could give you :)
so even in my case, it becomes $x^2 = 1 mod 17$ then.
No, in your case it's $x^2=-1$ mod $17$.
Oh wait, right, there is a +1 on the left side for me, not -1.
This -1 is confusing me now :|
4 * 4 = 16, which is -1 from 17. But how is 13 an answer then? 169 is -1 from 17?
17:09
Hi guys
multiples of 17 !!
Hi @Danu
Hi @Danu.
Today, lectures started again
I love lectures :)))
There you go, @DemCodeLines !
17:10
Sup Danu
We're going to prove Donaldson's theorem
so excited
Also I tested it and I am able to live-TeX symplectic geometry :)
@MikeMiller: I have a guess. I think it also explains why you could give me counterexamples for dimension 2 for the thing I conjectured (about the bundle being trivial on 2-skeleton).
You probably want to resolve the 1-homotopy type of the structure group (from O(n) to SO(n) we resolved the 0-homotopy type).
@Danu Good theorem.
That is, take it's universal cover for n > 2. For n = 2, it's a circle, that's why you can't resolve and this should also be the reason for having counterexamples in dimension 2.
The theorem I'm probably most excited about in all of mathematics.
17:14
@BalarkaSen Spin(n) is the connected double over of SO(n).
ah, ok.
We started now on $\text{Spin}^c$-structures
@TedShifrin So you can just use any multiple of 17 to "fit" a solution?
@DemCodeLines: You can go around that clock as many times as you want!!
Modular arithmetic? :)
17:16
Yup.
Question: Does the name "modular forms" have anything to do with that?
Not really.
So why are modular forms called like that?
Modular forms are sections of a certain vector bundle equivariant under the action of the "modular group". The modular group is a group of matrices whose entries are 1 mod N.
Ah, so they do have to do with it. Thanks.
17:18
I don't think that points towards a connection with modular arithmetic though, but sure.
@BalarkaSen A spin structure on an oriented vector bundle is a choice of lift $X \to B\text{Spin}(n)$ of the classifying map to $BSO(n)$. There is a fiber sequence $B(\Bbb Z/2) \to B\text{Spin}(n) \to BSO(n)$. Let's try to construct the lift cell-by-cell. Of course these classifying spaces are simply connected, so you can lift the one-skeleton.
That is a connection with modular arithmetic :P
@Danu That's just a terminology.
The fact is that the "modular forms" terminology is traceable to modular arithmetic.
That's all
Well, actually, no, @Danu. See this.
17:21
Also modular group is SL(2, Z). The thing Mike is referring to are their subgroups. IIRC modular forms are certain 1-forms on the quotient of the upper half plane by those.
@MikeMiller Right, for $n > 2$.
They're functions with a factor of automorphy for transformation law under the group action.
Oh, so Mike misled me :( Okay, I'll go sit in a corner now.
What? No, they're simply connected for all $n$.
Oh, you wrote the exact sequence after applying the classifying space functor. Yeah, I agree.
I misread.
danu talking about "Facts" lol
modul is a very old german term
17:23
I remember my complex analysis professor explaining why it was called the "modular group". No idea what he said though.
(about as old as Riemann)
@Hailbert I speak German.
@BalarkaSen Consider a 2-cell as a map $c: S^1 \times [0,1] \to X \to BSO(n)$. Lift this upstairs (fitting with the lift you already chose for $S^1 \times \{0\}$ inside the 1-skeleton). Then the lift of $c(S^1 \times 1)$ lies inside the fiber, where it's either null or not null. Assign $o(c)$ to be $1$ if that lift is non-null, otherwise zero.
ok good then i can cite from riemann's papers
if you want
@PVAL, I'm guessing because the upper half plane is the moduli space for $g=1$ curves.
17:25
@TedShifrin So basically, the rule is either the number needs to satisfy the clock (in this case 16, since that is -1 from 17) or be -1 from a multiple of 17?
@Ted That's a good reason.
Wenn der reelle Theil von s negativ ist, kann das Integral, statt positiv um das angegebene Gro¨ssengebiet auch negativ um das Gro¨ssengebiet, welches s¨ammtliche u¨brigen complexen Gro¨ssen entha¨lt, erstreckt werden, da das Integral durch Werthe mit unendlich grossem Modul dann unendlich klein ist. Im Innern dieses Gro¨ssengebiets aber wird die Function unter dem Integralzeichen nur unstetig....
from riemann's paper on the zeta function
@MikeMiller OK, let me read carefully. I should stop talking terminology.
Right, @DemCodeLines ... Keep going around the clock. If you have $130$ you go around the clock 7 times and then wind up at $11$.
This defines a cellular cochain $o \in C^2(X)$. It's actually a cellular cocycle, defining a cohomology class $[o] \in H^2(X)$. If $[o]$ vanishes, it's a reasonably easy fact to see that the whole 2-skeleton has a lift upstairs (though you might need to fiddle with the 1-skeleton's lift).
You can prove that $o$ coincides with $w_2$.
17:27
Everything's with mod 2 coeffs, @MikeM?
Ah, I see.
@BalarkaSen Now, basically as a corollary of the fact that the fiber is aspherical, you can then lift all the higher skeleta. So $w_2$ vanishes iff the bundle has a spin structure (given that $w_1$ already vanished).
@TedShifrin Which is -6, so not a solution
Then spin structures are classified by $H^1(X;\Bbb Z/2)$ (just like orientations are classified by $H^0(X;\Bbb Z/2)$)
17:29
Of course. I was trying to get you to think about the meaning of mod 17, @DemCodeLines :)
If $w_1$ doesn't vanish what you get instead is a Pin structure, but whatever.
@MikeM: But there's nothing analogous for $w_3$ if $w_1=w_2=0$? I don't berember.
@TedShifrin I think it should be obtained from killing the 2-homotopy type of Spin somehow.
When $n>2$, and $X$ is a 2-complex, then a Spin(n)-bundle over X is automatically trivial. So if $w_1 = w_2 = 0$ and $n>2$ the bundle trivializes over the 2-skeleton.
@BalarkaSen What's $\pi_2 SO(n)$?
But still we can have $w_3\ne 0$, can't we, @MikeM? I know $\pi_2$ of any Lie group. Ha.
17:31
Yes, @Ted. I was tryna make a point.
Like if we have a rank-3 bundle with odd Euler class.
Oh, 2-complex only.
A spin structure is a homotopy class of non-vanishing vector fields on the one skeleton which extend to the two skeleton. This is the only way I think about these things anymore.
Fiber bundle exact sequence says it's $0$ I think.
@PVAL-inactive That's not helpful if I'm doing gauge theory. If I'm doing Heegaard Floer, maybe.
I like that, @PVAL.
17:33
If I'm doing gauge theory, I need the actual bundles flying around.
So we divide the number of elements to test by 2. In this case it was 16/2 = 8. Any solutions inside 1 - 8 will also have inverses true?
There is a story about going up the Whitehead tower of O(n), but it stops being about Stiefel-Whitney classes, and you're no longer working with Lie groups, so it's hard to apply to differential geometry. It shows up in algebraic topology but I'm mostly ignorant of it.
Yes, @DemCodeLines. By which you mean that if $a$ is a solution between 1 and 8, then $-a$ will be a corresponding solution between 9 and 16.
(Now the obstruction is something called $p_1/2$.)
Yes. However, that doesn't necessarily hold true in your example above.
34 mins ago, by Ted Shifrin
You need to check by hand @DemCodeLines. For example, in $\Bbb Z_8$, we have $1^2=3^2=5^2=7^2=1$ mod $8$ !!
Wait, it does
17:36
Yes, it still holds, @DemCodeLines. 7=-1, 5=-3.
@MikeMiller Bundles mainly just hover I think.
LOL @PVAL
You checked 1 and 3, their inversions are 7 and 5.
Right.
Fair enough. They impose.
17:38
Fiber bundles are the most fun I've had in my "Read some of Hatcher chap 4"-course so far.
$5 \mathbb Z \cap 4 \mathbb Z$ is just $20 \mathbb Z$?
Some of us spend our lives with fiber bundles of various sorts.
Since that is the LCM
Yes, @DemCodeLines.
I have a differential geometer friend who does just that (I think)
17:40
Do you mean me?
It's hard to avoid vector bundles and principal bundles in differential geometry.
Good grief, @MikeM. I hope you're not calling yourself a differential geometer!
I think I ever end up teaching beginner algebraic topology, I would like to spend an above average amount of time explaining how to actually construct homotopies, instead of expending nearly all of the time manipulating various obstructions.
I attended a talk today which was about differential geometry of the purely non-fiber type :)
@MikeMiller Nope. I have no idea what it is you do.
@TedShifrin What am I allowed to call myself?
17:41
LOL ... Fred.
You do something which sounds like "instant homology", which I can only assume is cheap homology in powder form.
@PVAL: Non-topologists often get frustrated by the pictorial/handwavy fashion in which topologists demonstrate homotopies.
instant on homology
It's instanton homology, and you don't pour it in your water, you snort it.
@TedShifrin The word 'handwavy' should only be used if something is not rigorous. Topologists are rigorous. They just approach the mathematics they do in a different way.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that typical first-year grad students in an alg top class often find it frustrating.
17:43
I also object to calling pictorial arguments handwavy in general, unless, of course, they are the wrong pictures :P
@TedShifrin You should amend that to non-algebraists.
"slide this over there, lift this over that, and then flip on your back and look at it"
3
When I sign up for a number theory class, I don't ask them to draw pictures for me.
I, personally, do not like an alg top class taught by an algebraist who makes it all entirely formal.
So in the last paper I think my differential geometry friend is proud of going ctrl+F and "bundle" gives 26 results, so I suppose he likes them.
17:45
I have 30 already and I just started writing.
OK, I need to head out. You all learn lots.
bye
So, why does one care about Spin structures? $w_2 = 0$ doesn't sound like a satisfying enough reason, but it's still interesting that such (oriented) bundles are classified by maps to BSpin
17:47
@MikeMiller Are you just writing notes to organize stuff in your head (and for your advisor to have some idea of where you are)?
No he's writing a Thesis and has been ever since he can remember.
Next week, the applicants for LMU's open position for tenure track professor are going to present talks :D
He's in his second (third?) year, so writing a thesis sounds a tad early.
@BalarkaSen Differential geometry perspective: Spin structures give us Clifford algebras and Dirac operators. A corollary is Rohlin's theorem: A spin 4-manifold has signature divisible by 16. You can also prove that a simply connected 4-manifold has a spin structure iff its intersection form is even. As an immediate corollary, Freedman's E8 manifold is not smoothable.
17:51
@PVAL-inactive It's a paper but everything else is right.
There's a whole nice book called Spin geometry by Lawson and Michelson that goes through the topological, geometric, and analytic aspects of spin structures.
Rohlin's invariant of 3-manifolds has you pick a spin 4-manifold that bounds the 3-manifold, divide its signature by 8, and take that mod 2.
Ah, ok. Yeah, I think you mentioned that invariant once. Why does it not depend on the 4-manifold you're choosing?
Something something cobordism invariant? Maybe?
Sorry, this is an invariant of homology spheres.
Pick another one. Glue them together along the boundary. Signature is additive under gluing along a homology sphere. We see that the signature of the two things must differ by a multiple of 16 by Rohlin's theorem.
So it's well-defined mod 2.
Alright, that make sense.
It's an open question whether the homomorphism $\beta: \Theta^3_{\Bbb Z} \to \Bbb Z/2$ lifts to a homomorphism to $\Bbb Z$. It's known that there is a map $\beta$ with the property that $\beta(-Y) = - \beta(Y)$ that lifts Rohlin, but it's not a homomorphism. (My advisor proved this, and the triangulation conjecture is false as a corollary.)
17:59
cool stuff.
I recognized this, from the description on quanta magazine :P
18:12
@DanielFischer The integrals $\int_{0}^{\pi/4} \frac{\sin(xt^{2})}{2x} \left(\frac{2 \sec^{2}(t) \tan(t)}{t} - \frac{\tan^{2}(t)}{t^{2}} \right) \,dt$ and $\int_{0}^{\pi/4} \frac{\sin(xt^{2})}{2x} \, dt$ should behave somewhat similarly as $x \to \infty$. But how would you argue that both integrals have the same leading-order behavior?
The reason I ask is because the leading-order behavior of $-\int_{0}^{\pi/4} \frac{\sin(xt^{2})}{2x} \, dt$ is exactly the second term in the asymptotic expansion of $\int_{0}^{\pi/4} \cos(xt^{2}) \tan^{2}(t) \, dt$ as $x \to \infty$.
18:27
My yogurt was in the freezer; now it's turned into ice :(
Yogurt popsicle
My favorite
@TedShifrin Ok, so it's not just me.
@BalarkaSen There is also a lift $\lambda$ which is additive under connected sum. But it's not a homology cobordism invariant.
Interesting.
How many glasses of orange juice can I drink a day until it stops being "Good, you get a lot of vitamin C" and becomes "That's too much juice"?
You'll probably get overhydrated before you've got too much vitamin C
18:41
When your skin turns orange.... wait, no, that's carrot juice
@BalarkaSen The existence of this $\lambda$ and some simple properties of it give a proof that E8 is not triangulable.
very cool. I wish I could appreciate all this a bit better.
@RandomVariable Consider $$F(t) = \frac{2\tan t}{t\cos^2 t} - \frac{\tan^2 t}{t^2} - 1.$$ Note that at $0$ we have $F(t) \in O(t^2)$. Thus you can integrate $\int_0^{\pi/4} F(t)\sin (xt^2)\,dt$ by parts. Show that that has lower order than $\int_0^{\pi/4}\sin (xt^2)\,dt$.
Hello
Do you have any ideas how to solve this: symbolab.com/solver/inequalities-calculator/…
@BalarkaSen But at this point I've walked away from spin stuff anyway so whatever.
18:50
@SuperMan put the power $x$ around the entire fraction, take log of both sides, solve for $x$?
I think you are right but not sure how to write it @SteamyRoot
@BalarkaSen Suppose $w_1(M) = 0$ for a 3-manifold $M$. Can you prove that $w_2(M) = 0$ yet?
I don't know a proof off the top of my head. I can try to do it.
how far in MS are you
Section 5. Section 6, 7 I haven't read yet, but I know the material in section 8 from Hatcher.
18:55
@SuperMan Draw the graphs.
I procrastinated on vector bundles while doing differential geometry.
@BalarkaSen You'll need to wait until chapter 11.
Given that fact: $w_1(M^3) = 0 \implies w_2(M) = 0$ - show that oriented 3-manifolds are parallelizable.
You don't need to wait to prove this.
19:11
good evening
I am checking if I computed the homotopy groups of Spin(3) right
@MikeMiller So prove that $w_3$ also vanishes?
@Danu That doesn't suffice.
@Danu $TS^n$
oh, dur
of course
It's just an obstruction, not the only one, haha
That'd be sick
Then again, then it'd be boring
19:13
Yeah, so BSpin(3) is 3-connected.
I guess that does it, by cellular approximating the classifying map.
I'm terrified to be too hurried after my failed attempt yesterday. Bear with me being slow.
I don't remember what you did last time, but I'm sure it was horrifying.
yeah... glad that you don't remember it
Oh, right.
19:24
aww shit
Nice example of an involution which can't be smoothed.
thanks. I think I learnt it from you, but I no longer remember
@DanielFischer It indeed has lower order ($O(x^{-2})$ as opposed to $0(x^{-3/2})$). Thanks.
I should decide what I'm teaching today.
On which course?
19:30
Manifolds.
What do you think of when you think of a spin structure?
PVAL gave a nice picture a few messages back.
Any nonzero vector field on the 1-skeleton extends to a nonzero vector field on the 2-skeleton.
@BalarkaSen No, that's not what he said. A spin structure is a choice of nonzero vector field on the 1-skeleton, chosen up to isotopy, that extends to a nonzero vector field on the 2-skeleton.
I can't find this message. Link, anyone?
19:33
That also only works for $n>2$ probably.
It said nothing more than I just did.
I'd still appreciate a link.
Ah, true, true. What I said is not true.
But I'll search some more myself.
2 hours ago, by PVAL-inactive
A spin structure is a homotopy class of non-vanishing vector fields on the one skeleton which extend to the two skeleton. This is the only way I think about these things anymore.
2 hours ago, by PVAL-inactive
A spin structure is a homotopy class of non-vanishing vector fields on the one skeleton which extend to the two skeleton. This is the only way I think about these things anymore.
D'oh, sorry
19:37
I'm off to watch more of Yuri Norshteyn
Anyway, I think of it as exactly what it is. A lift of the structure group to Spin(n). Some people think about it in terms of a Clifford module structure on the tangent bundle.
Or something like that.
What is the analogue of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Formal_definition for context-free languages?

In other words, what is their definition in terms of sets (without having to evoke grammars, if possible)?
19:51
@MikeMiller Do people care if a 3-manifold Y has a knot K in it which surgers to a lens space?
I think they're interested in knots which do surger to lens spaces. But starting to ask questions about 3-manifolds that carry such knots would be interesting.
That seems extremely difficult though. Take eg $S^3$. If you could prove that a 3-manifold $Y$ didn't have a knot that surgered to $S^3$ wouldn't you prove it's not surgery on a knot, by going backwards?
if you could do that people would be very interested, since the only existing proofs of that are either heegaard floer theoretic or come from Taubes periodic ends theorem
@MikeMiller Well I have a construction not an obstruction.
I see. People are probably more interested in obstructions but I think there would be interest in constructions too.
Namely if $n\geq 2$, -n surgery on the Whitehead double of any knot has a knot which surgers to a lens space.
I wonder if thats something worth stating in its own right in what I am writing.
sure it's worth stating. probably not writing a paper specifically about it or anything though.
20:18
Can I get some help?
@MikeMiller You gotta talk about 2-frames to show $TY^3$ is trivial. I'm not sure how you do that with spin structures as the orthogonal complement of a nonzero v.f is not necessairly trivial.
@MikeMiller Maybe its obvious that every orientable 2-bundle over a 2-skeleton is trivial after summing with the trivial bundle. I don't remember how to do that though.
@PVAL I don't believe that. Take the tangent space of RP^2.
Oh, orientable.
I want to evaluate $$\int_{0}^{\infty} \frac{x^2}{(x^2+1)(x^2+4)} dx$$ using residues
How can I let the starting point for the corresponding contour integral be $z=-\infty$?
I.e turn it into an improper integral
Maybe $$\int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{x^2}{(x^2+1)(x^2+4)} dx = 2 \int_{0}^{\infty} \frac{x^2}{(x^2+1)(x^2+4)} dx$$ since the integrand looks pretty even
20:54
@PVAL The classifying map is to BSpin(3) = HP^infty and so is null-homotopic.
@MikeMiller So why does this imply the map to BSO(3) is null-homotopic?
@PVAL-inactive Because it's a lift of the map downstairs. If the map is null-homotopic upstairs, just push that null-homotopy downstairs.
Of course to see that you automatically have a spin structure you probably need to know the Wu formula.
21:09
@MikeMiller Potentially you can prove Milnor's characterization and then use Poincare-Hopf.
i.e. show every 3-manifold admits a non-vanishing vector field hence Milnor implies a spin structure exists.
Out of curiosity, what is Milnor's characterization?
@BalarkaSen The thing that already got quoted twice.
I am not sure what you refer to. I suppose "having a non-vanishing vector field implies spin structure" is the statement?
"A spin structure is a homotopy class of non-vanishing vector fields on the one skeleton which extend to the two skeleton. "
21:19
Really? That spin structures are homotopy classes of vector fields on the 1-skeleton that extend to the 2-skeleton.
@PVAL I'm confused. Wouldn't that imply any manifold with zero Euler class is spin? But there are non-spin 5-manifolds.
@MikeMiller Maybe Milnor's stuff assumes $w_2=0$ already and the argument I said doesn't work.
Still looking at his paper I don't see it.
@PVAL Yeah I'm confused.
21:38
"For a different approach, recall that Milnor [5] observed that a spin structure on an oriented vector bundle over a CW–complex is equivalent (after stabilizing if necessary) to a trivialization over the 1–skeleton that can be extended over the 2–skeleton"
I guess its really a trivialization of the entire vector bundle after stabilizing and not just a cross-section as Milnor seems to state.
Maybe this is old terminology playing with me and a "crossection of an SO(3)-bundle" is really a trivialization of the corresponding vector bundle.
I guess I've missed the topology seminar for the day? :D
if you have a section of a principal bundle, it has to be trivial.
not such old terminology ... even though I'm old.
Hi @Ted
Hi @Balarka ... It's past your bedtime, as usual.
oh well
If I have a singularity in the upper plane and a singularity in the lower plane and I want to enclose these singularities in two connected semicircular contours, do these contours necessarily have different directions?
21:46
That doesn't quite make sense, @Lozansky.
Are you doing a big circle with a keyhole at the origin or something?
No
Imagine a semicircular contour around $z=i$
How do I do a semicircle around?
With the real axis included, going in a CCW direction
OK.
That's one contour, finished.
Why are you adding on to it?
Then another contour around $z=-i$
21:48
If you merge them, it's one large circle, and there's no more x-axis.
@PVAL: In case you missed my earlier comment, any principal bundle with a global section is trivial, indeed.
@TedShifrin I should let you in on that what I'm trying to compute is $p.v. \int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{cos(3x)}{x^2+4} dx $
You just go around one of the poles. Forget about the other one. And be careful with the numerator.
@Ted he was presumably interpreting it as a vector bundle
I have no clue.
@TedShifrin I'm supposed to compute the integral by employing residue theory on $$p.v \int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{e^{i3x}}{2(x^2+4)} dx + p.v \int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{e^{-i3x}}{2(x^2+4)} dx$$
21:54
First of all, @Lozansky, just do the real part of the first (without the 1/2). No need to do two integrals. Now you must pick a contour that guarantees $e^{i3z}$ decays ... If you do that, $e^{-i3z}$ will blow up, so you can't win trying to do both simultaneously.
Right
Just use $\cos x = \Re (e^{ix})$.
@TedShifrin Okay I have a value for the first one

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