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00:46
$|\Bbb N^{\Bbb N}|$ is not bigger than $|2^{\Bbb N}|$ for instance. we can inject the former into $\Bbb R$ via continued fractions. (so this example applies with both $|X^{\Bbb N}|$ and $|{\Bbb N}^X|$ interpretations).
@GPerez are you talking about ring isomorphism or K-isomorphism?
Mike is no longer his trademark blue and arctic tern is no longer an actual tern.
This is uncomfortable. Change is scary.
arctic = cool = chillin with sunglasses = still me, QED
the heck is mike though?
I wonder if there's a similar crazy as birds with arms, but birds with sunglasses instead.
@Obliv I think he's some sort of abstract structure.
His full-size avatar: i.sstatic.net/uLw87.png
01:00
LOL I have bad eyes I guess because to me it looked like a three-headed lightbulb with party-hats for each head.
... Is that a manifold that is locally isomorphic to the complex protective plane?
@Obliv At first I saw an ocarina, then a weird chef hat with stink lines.
@axoren i guess we aren't mathematicians
@Obliv Nonsense. We're mathematicians. We just study the abstract locally party-hat globally smelly chef hats.
2
Is there a term for a function of the form $x' w' A w y$ where $x, y, w$ are variables and $A$ is some matrix? if $x = w= y$ then this would be some quartic form, but what aout this generalization?
@NicholasMancuso A is a matrix, what are x',w',w,y?
01:06
vectors
x' is x transpose
if ' means transpose, then w'Aw is a scalar, so that's (w'Aw) times (x'y) right?
yes thats right
@NicholasMancuso $w'Aw$ is a quadratic form, definitely. If $x = y$, there's something to be said about a specific type of distance metric, I forget the name.
so some scaled bilinear form?
I mean, it's a polynomial, which is quadratic in w and linear in x,y
01:09
@NicholasMancuso I was thinking of the squared Mahalanobis Distance and it's not relevant.
Ultimately I was curious if functions of this form had been investigated so I may easily look up properties of its expectation and variance
@Axoren x'x is just the square of the Euclidean norm
Yes I'm aware
But suppose x, w, y are random (n-length) variables
@NicholasMancuso polynomials of all sorts have been investigated, don't see why this particular form would have a name out of the zoo of possible forms they can take
I'm interested in properties of the moments of the function I described
01:10
@NicholasMancuso was talking to Axoren not you with that comment
Roger
i was just curious if the concept of bilinear form had been extended to 4 variables
some quartic form
@NicholasMancuso What context did you see it in?
It is involved in some statistics that involve covariance between estimates of covariance
@NicholasMancuso If $A$ is a covariance matrix, then $w'Aw$ meets the requirements to be a Mahalanobis distance.
@NicholasMancuso multilinear form A(p,q,r,s) would be linear in p,q,r,s. in which case A(w,w,x,y) would be quadratic in w and linear in x,y, and A(z,z,z,z) would be quartic in z, etc.
01:13
@Axoren yes I know. that is just a quadratic form. I'm aware of that
Ok, my terminology is poor
So I should just be searching for statistics of multilinear forms then
That would give you a wide variety of things, but you'll probably find something that looks like this.
Ok cool
Thanks everyone.
The only way I can see that expression being computable is if you factor out $(w'Aw)x'y$
Because $x'w'$ doesn't apply.
we already talked about that
So you did. I'm bouncing in between some old course-work and papers to see if I recognized any thing of that nature. Sorry for not having kept up.
Good luck, @NicholasMancuso
01:23
hi tern, @Axoren
@TedShifrin Yo. That change finally got you to pick an actual avatar?
Yup, @Axoren.
I love asking people what my avatar is :P
It's a neat object. Did you generate it yourself or is it a popular structure?
I made the picture in Mathematica about 20 years ago.
How be you, tern?
01:28
If I had to guess: Two yurts collide in the air during a hurricane and fuse at their base and twist.
LOL ... well, I had something a bit more commonplace in mind.
I'm stumped otherwise.
It's the picture of what you get when you spin ________ around an axis.
As a hint, this appears as an exercise in a few of my books :P
$n$-gon for some $n$
Um, no.
You're fired.
01:30
I've actually yet to get one of your calculus books.
Been focusing on algebras and very little amounts of calculus lately.
LOL, only one calculus book. There's linear algebra, abstract algebra, and differential geometry. :P
You've written a differential geometry book?
You've turned into algebra?
Yes, differential geometry: a geometric approach.
Undergraduate diff geo, yes, years ago. It's free on my website.
01:31
I'd be hard-pressed to satisfy the properties of one.
spanks Mike
I'll take a look, I've been using Boothby and I'm noticing a lot of things left to the reader that I'd have liked to have been told up-front instead of toyed with.
Mike, did I tell you that I got a tee-shirt for my retirement that had the subtitle ... Retirement: A Geometric Approach (there was a geometric series)
7
Oh, that's graduate stuff, @Axoren. You'll have to ask me directly.
I'm thinking it's a square.
But you said it's not an $n$-gon.
Close, but no cigar.
You need something 3D.
01:33
Oh balls.
It's an $n$-tope.
No, no balls.
2
Cube?
No.
There you go. No?
@Ted I like it.
I figured you would, Mike.
01:34
I guess it's not over one of the nice axes of symmetry, is it?
Oh? @Axoren
Looks beautifully symmetric to me.
Oh, no. I see it now.
The cross-diagonal.
There you go ... Well done.
From (0, 0, 0) to (1, 1, 1)
That's rough.
Someone asked me that years and years and years ago. I worked it out by hand long before Mathematica drew it for me.
If you know that hyperboloids of one sheet and saddle surfaces are the only doubly-ruled surfaces, you can deduce it "abstractly."
01:37
I understand little of that terminology. I know what a saddle is and what a hyperboloid is, but not doubly-ruled.
@Ted Nice argument.
Doubly-ruled = through each point there are two distinct lines
Well, it takes proof, @MikeM.
On an aside, just last week, I saw the most devastatingly simple yet confounding linear algebra problem. It's due in two days as the first question on an otherwise simple refresher homework for CS 724.
You're just setting me up to fail. But tell me the problem.
Most of the class had trouble with it and I solved it this morning: Let $x$ and $y$ be orthogonal vectors and let $P$ be some idempotent matrix. True or false: $Px$ and $Py$ are orthogonal.
01:39
Idempotent means $P^k=P$ for some $k>1$?
I never remember these words.
Generally, including $k = 1$
No, $k=1$ includes everybody.
Oh, I see.
Yes.
I think your class hasn't covered enough examples of linear maps.
Well, of course it's wrong.
01:41
Right, you can think of a counterexample, right?
Many.
Think of a projection and things that die.
I, now, too, can think of many.
@MikeMiller Not all that surprising. Most linear algebra students do NOT think geometrically.
Of course, if they'd studied under my "Geometric Approach," of course they would :D
I should add that, by and large, this is the fault of their teachers.
My solution was to simply normalize to $\hat x$ and $\hat y$, extend them to a basis of the whole space $\beta$ and select $P = [ \hat x, \dots \hat x]_\beta$.
AGGGH ... @Axoren: Be geometric.
01:43
Sorry, it makes so much more sense to me this way.
Sigh
Yes, you're projecting to a line.
Specifically the one spanned by $x$
Duh.
Any projection onto something of codim>1 will work.
So, as soon as you apply $Px$ and $Py$, we have $Px = Py = x$
You too should learn to be more geometric.
01:45
That breaks it with a specific counter example in $P$.
My understanding is that in a disproof by counterexample, I need to give an argument that a counterexample exists or give an actual counterexample.
Yes, and the word "projection" is a counterexample!
I'm not sure how I can sufficiently follow the projection to a full counter example.
project (1,-1) and (1,1) onto x-axis
Ordinarily, @Axoren, you need to provide a particular counterexample. But I gave you uncountably many.
Tern outdoes me, as usual :P
@arctictern That is a good simply one for the 2D case.
01:48
if you think geometrically, it's good for all dimensions. (not that disproving the statement requires a counterexample in every dimension.)
I was worried that if I just stated an arbitrary projection, then $Py = 0$
That suffices, @Axoren. Usually, the statement is "for all $n$, there is an $n\times n$ matrix $P$ such that ... "
Well, $0$ is not orthogonal to $0$.
That's where my counterexample came from. Take $2$ nonzero orthogonal vectors in the kernel (nullspace).
I would argue that $0$ is orthogonal to $0$ as it is the $Rot_{90}(\vec 0)$
OK, you win on a technicality. Now do tern's thing and add something in the subspace to make things nonzero.
01:50
@Axoren in 0 and 1 dimensions, there is no 90 rotation. in 2 dimensions, you need to specify which 90 rotation. in 3 or more dimensions, there's uncountably many 90 rotations (and then I'd have to explain what that even means).
But he's still right, tern. Orthogonal by definition is $0$ dot product. I was wrong ... again :P
yeah, was wondering why you said 0 isn't orthogonal to itself
Cuz I was stoooopid (to quote @Pedro).
@arctictern You can define an angle between vectors in any space as $\cos \alpha = \frac{(x, y)}{||x||||y||}$, isn't it?
01:52
yes
I guess there's no rotation operator, but there's technically an angle between $\dim 1$ vectors, right?
I'm off to cook dinner. Wonderful to see you, Axoren. Bye, tern :)
Peace.
in dim 1, nonzero vectors are either 0 or 180 degrees from each other
01:55
Oh that's bonkers. It's like if you flattened an obtuse angle or an acute angle.
02:17
just a quick question if we consider a vector space and hamel basis for it then the expression of any vector v is unique right ?
because if we write it in two different way we get by the fact the fact that basis are Linearly indepedent we get equality.
good
02:32
Could you expand vectors to the third dimension? (And I mean like this: (1, 6, 9))
@Zopesconk Yes, there are vectors in 3D vector spaces. In fact, 3D vector spaces exist.
what's going on in here?
03:03
I feel like someday, I'm going to read the entire tikz documentation from front to back.
It's so powerful.
03:56
can a triangle exist in a space with only one distinct point?
there are "degenerate" triangles
just trying to come up with a space in which the theorem the scarecrow says at the end of wizard of oz says
a more serious question consider the Quaternions what is $I^{J^K}$?
6
Q: Exponential Function of Quaternion - Derivation

Jade196The equation for the exponential function of a quaternion $q = a + b i + c j + dk$ is supposed to be $$e^{q} = e^a (\cos(\sqrt{b^2+c^2+d^2})+\frac{(b i + c j + dk)}{\sqrt{b^2+c^2+d^2}} \sin(\sqrt{b^2+c^2+d^2}))$$ I'm having a difficult time finding a derivation of this formula. I keep trying to...

assuming you define a^b to be exp(b ln(a)), you still need to define ln() for quaternions, which already has issues for complex numbers. but I mean we talk about i^i and stuff with the usual branch cut, so you can do that for i,j,k
now unfortuna
dang
04:08
j^k = exp(k ln(j)) = exp(k pi j/2) = exp(-i pi /2) = -i,
i^(-i) = exp(-i ln(i)) = exp(-i pi i/2) = exp(pi /2)
@arctictern Do you know if the matrix exponential is invertible (i.e. the existence of a matrix logarithm)?
the Mercator series for ln(I+A) should converge for det(A)<1
04:26
Nice, so you could actually define $A^B$
I can't quite imagine what meaning it would have, but it can be done.
I should have said |det(A)|<1 of course
 
1 hour later…
user228700
05:33
Hi everyone :-)
user228700
I've a quick question; if the coefficients of a quadratic equation are unreal, is it untrue that unreal roots occur in conjugate pairs?
05:45
by untrue do you mean false?
and complex solutions always some in pais eause the square root of -1 has two solutions i,-i
its more deep truth about complex numbers that doesnt care about where they occur
@Kaumudi
user228700
Okay, thanks :-)
sorrybabout typos my keyboard appears to be glitching
@Kaumudi What do you mean by unreal? Strictly complex?
good point
If your coefficients are fictitious, then your quadratic equation might not even exist.
05:52
does the null set come in pairs? by standard rules the fundamental theorem of algebra would be broken if we say no so i think its still yes in that case
Generally, the only things in the null set are pairs.
thats a great statement
It's actually one of many common statements about the null set.
user228700
@Axoren Huh? Really?!
@Kaumudi Unreally.
05:56
poes law
Also applies to people citing Poe's Law.
user228700
@Axoren I didn't understand if that was supposed to be a joke, but really, the quadratic equation might not even exist?! What do u mean?
what even is communication?
@Kaumudi If you mean unreal in that they didn't exist instead of strictly complex (imaginary component mandatory), for example.
I've not heard the term "unreal" to describe complex numbers strictly with an imaginary component.
So I was making a rather bad joke.
i liked it....
but it gotme thinking about Quaternion cooeficients and so on
06:00
If your coefficients are allowed to be complex, we can rather easily provide a case in which they don't occur in conjugate pairs:
$(x - i)(x - 1) = x^2 - (1+ i)x + i$
It's a quadratic function with coefficients $1, -1-i, i$ and its roots are $i, 1$.
The conjugate of $i$ is missing from the set of roots.
Ugh, I should have just used $(x + i)(x + 1)$, I'm not a fan of how that second coefficient looks in that example.
But there you have it, @Kaumudi. A counterexample to the statement being true.
good point but that has some real coeefeciants, can you get rid of all of them?
Thus false.
@shaihorowitz Consider instead $ix^2 + 3ix + 3i + 1$, with the roots $i - 1, -2-i$.
Or consider any polynomial of degree $1$.
06:31
@TobiasKildetoft The question originally specified "quadratic functions with unreal coefficients".
@Axoren Ahh
I've made it 24 hours without sleep.
I'm really off my game, tonight.
06:53
@TedShifrin I guess it's what you get when you turn a rectangle around the axis given by one of the diagonals.
@BalarkaSen You're wrong*
You're close, though
Huh, no idea
Cube.
Not rectangle.
Don't see why.
I am doubting you'd get different objects if you rotate the cube and the rectangle.

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