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16:05
All right, you know what?
@Sawarnik I am guessing that's an abbreviation for the gravatar. Yes.
If I ever gain influence on the educational system of my country (which will never happen), the first thing I'd do is make sure degrees aren't taught in elementary school
Instead radians
Degrees are useless
@Semiclassical I am back...
@SirCumference Totally correct :D
Like, why are they still being taught in school?
It is easyer to understand, you don't need the knownlege of PI
16:09
Well then teach pi first
because it's easier for students to understand angles than lengths at that stage.
@Semiclassical But we're getting them used to something they'll likely abandon (if they go into mathematics)
And how many of them will go into math?
Yes but then they have to wait a lot of time before introducing geometry... And you learn Pi with elemenary geometry...
Not a lot.
16:10
But c'mon, we'll just teach them that a radian is an angle
And we could define it for them later
For now just say it's 1/6.28 of a circle
Yes but if they learned more interesting stuff at school, maybe there would be mmore that would go into mathematics...
I'd say the issue is that radians only make sense if you appreciate $s\propto \theta$
@Semiclassical Could you please help me with my problem?
I mean, degrees are useless in calc anyways
Look back at what you had before. It was of the form $a Y_1+b Y_2 = c Y_1 +d Y_2=1$ where $a,b,c,d$ were functions of $x$ and $Y_1,Y_2$ are $f(x/2)$ and $f(2/x)$ respectively.
That's a linear system in two variables.
16:13
Yea... But you kind of need the degrees for understanding radians...
So why bother with them?
@DanielCortild Baloney! You can define a radian without degrees
@Semiclassical Yes... But how do I solve it?
Same as you'd solve any linear system.
@SirCumference Yea you're right...
I'm not going to explain basic algebra.
16:15
Sorry not what I ment. But what am I triing to find?
well, you're presumably trying to find $f(x)$.
so if you know what $f(x/2)$ or $f(2/x)$ were in terms of $x$ alone, you could infer what $f(x)$ is itself is
and those are just $Y_1,Y_2$ as I previously indicated
But I ahve two variables and none of them can be canceld... Or can they?
hey guys can someone here help me with a dynamical systems problem?
...dude. you have two variables, and the equalities you wrote down represent two equations
not one. you have enough information to solve.
@SoumyoB ask, don't ask to ask.
Yes but it gives me that f(x) is something that depnds of f(y)... No? Am I really missing something stupid?
16:18
@Semiclassical is that a rule?
@SoumyoB see the room desc.
@Semiclassical So I get $f(x/2)=(4+x)/(x^2+x)f(2/x)$...
look. if I told you that $f(x)+f(1-x)=1$ and $f(x)-f(1-x)=x$, what would you conclude about $f(x)$?
anyway. what would you classify a horizontal line of fixed points as (ie stable, unstable, saddle etc) when there is no motion along that line, but above the line trajectories move right and below it trajectories move left
for example, $\dot{y} = 0, \dot{x} = y$
16:20
@Semiclassical Well I get $f(x)+f(1-x)=(f(x)-f(1-x))/x$... Can I get better?
@Semiclassical you mean before concluding it doesn't exist? :P
@DanielCortild Substantially.
@DanielCortild can you solve A+B=1, A-B=3?
the whole x-axis is a line of fixed points but I don't see how I'd call those points as stable, unstable or anything
add both equations and you get $2f(x)=1+x\implies f(x)=\frac{1+x}{2}$
16:21
Learning how to solve two linear equations in two variables is an important lesson in intermediate algebra.
and then that gives $f(1-x)=1-\frac{1}{2}x$
Ohh........
which, huzzah, does satisfy the stated equation.
or should, if my algebra isn't dumb. hrm.
looks like my example doesn't actually work, derp.
anyone here wanna help me out?
should of started with f(x) then calculated f(x)\pm f(1-x) to create the problem
16:24
@arctictern Yeah.
So for my original equation, I get $f(2/x)=-1$?
I jumped the gun.
I'm stuck in an assignment's question which I was supposed to submit more than a week ago
No, because the coefficients are different. @DanielCortild
god knows how I'll convince the prof to accept my assignment
16:25
I have $f(x/2)=4/x* f(2/x)+1$, no?
let's get them together. what's the first equation?
what would you classify a horizontal line of fixed points as (ie stable, unstable, saddle etc) when there is no motion along that line, but above the line trajectories move right and below it trajectories move left
for example $\dot{x} = y, \dot{y} = 0$
@SoumyoB review the definitions of the terms (stable, unstable, saddle etc.), see if they apply
I'm just copy pasting whatever I had written a few minutes earlier
I know.
16:29
you probably have to classify $x$ and $y$ separately
The first is $xf(x/2)-f(2/x)=1$, sso $x(4/xf(2/x)+1)-f(2/x)=1$, so f(2/x)+x-f(2/x)=1, so $3f(2/x)=1-x$, so $f(2/x)=(1-x)/3$?
that second equation is a jumble.
@arctictern the difficulty is that I can't find formal definitions of the various types of fixed points anywhere, not even in Wikipedia
if you do $x\to 4/x$, you should straightforwardly get $(4/x) f(2/x)-f(x/2)=1$
@SoumyoB you say assignments, so presumably you're taking a class, and presumably you're learning from source material, so you have personal notes, lecture notes, or a textbook to look at, no?
16:31
Yea.... And replacing $f(x/2)$, I get $(4/x)f(2/x)-(4/x)f(2/x)+1=1$, so $1=1$...
replacing $f(x/2)$ with what?
With $(2/x)f(2/x)$...?
Why? Your two equations are $x f(x/2)-f(2/x)=1$ and $(4/x)f(2/x)-f(x/2)=1$.
it sounds like you've said "$x+y=1$, so $y=1-x$ and therefore $x+(1-x)=1$." Which is true but useless. You need to use both equations.
say A=f(x/2) and B=f(2/x), save eyeballs
Ohh I ment $(4/x)f(2/x)+1$...
16:34
fine. but that's still equally useless. following arctic's suggestion, you've taken $(4/x)A-B=1$, written $B=(4/x)A-1$, and then substituted to get $(4/x)A-((4/x)A-1)=1$.
which is true---but again, useless. an equation of course satisfies itself.
@arctictern I do, but even the prof has just listed the various types of fixed points along with how trajectories around them look like
there's no formal definitions
but you've also got $x A-B=1$, in addition to $(4/x) A-B=1$.
i made a typo somewhere, hang on
should've been $(4/x)B-A=1$ to match what arctic suggested. same objection holds.
I get $A=(4+x)/3x$.... Is that correct?
I am completely and entirely drained off after so much work today
might be. something that's easy to check is the case $x=2$ in the above equations. that gives $2f(1)-f(1)=1$ i.e. $f(1)=1$
by comparison, $A=f(x/2)=(4+x)/(3x)$ has $f(1) = 6/6=1$. so that's at least consistent.
to be sure, though, you'll need to compute $f(2/x)$ and plug back into the equations.
until you've done that, you can't be certain you've done the work right.
16:41
And I get $f(2/x)=(1+x)/3$...
okay. if you expand both out, you get $f(x/2)=4/(3x)+1/3$ and $f(2/x)=1/3+x/3$.
which is encouraging, since both imply $f(x)=2/(3x)+1/3$
But what do I have to do then?
o/
hi @MikeMiller
16:42
plug them back into the equation you had and see if they work.
i mean, does $xf(x/2)-f(2/x)=1$ for those two?
it looks like it does to me.
@Balarka The main problem with your new avatar is it's not immediately recognizable like your green one was. I think I have a similar problem, but I guess it's easier to say "oh, Mike's speech bubble is here"
Yes it does!!! So that is the solution?
well, $f(x/2)=4/(3x)+1/3$ isn't the solution. you need to write $f(x)$ in order to have that
Good point. I guess people will just get used to it.
but getting from there to $f(x)$ is easy enough
16:45
Can I write $y=2/X$?
I should probably go to campus and get to work. I don't have much time to write today.
All you guys' new avatars are hard to recognize. 5/10
I think it looks more like a cat's paw than a speech bubble though.
I think my present avatar is fine.
16:46
me too
I might change back.
I sent my advisor a reasonably long email and he cut it up into four paragraphs, and responded with "no, no, yes, not sure how you'd do that".
16
sounds about right
@MikeMiller Student life
that's always disappointing/frustrating
Hodge theory sounds kind of interesting
I'm just going to treat it as a black box for now, but I should probably read about it sometime...
16:53
Depending on what you mean by Hodge theory my answer is either "it is" or "hell if I know, but probably"
@MikeMiller Hodge theorem on compact Riemannian manifolds
Also, I'm sure we'll have a more detailed conversation when we actually meet.
harmonic forms n stuff
@Danu First one then.
Where'd you learn it from? My supervisor suggested maybe Warner's book would be okay
16:55
I have heard praises of Warner
Wells' book is the best source. Warner is ok, but I think his proof sort of half-asses it. I learned a lot of the standard elliptic regularity theory from a PDE class.
Like, his proof is correct, but if you're going to do the hard analysis you may as well do it on Euclidean space and not do the tricks he uses to work things out for compact manifolds only.
My supervisor said that Wells kinda can be viewed as a sequel to Warner, which focuses mostly on the complex case
or are you not talking about Wells' complex geometry book?
Wells' proof is less based on crucial inequalities and more based on understanding symbols of differential operators.
Wells has a chapter on elliptic complexes on compact Riemannian manifolds which can be applied to the theory of complex manifolds.
Or to harmonic forms.
okay, well I'll look at both when the time comes
(It also applies in more generality, and I don't remember off the top of my head whether you can make Warner's proof work more generally.)
Probably you can.
17:25
Hey, can someone explain me why some people say that the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12 ?
because of a numberphile video, primarily
secondarily because that's what zeta(-1) is
tertiarily some string theory nonsense
try googling the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12
^
@MikeMiller ::frowns::
It has nothing to do with string theory, actually
Zeta function regularization is used in good ol' experimentally verified QFT.
fair enough, "some experimentally verified physics nonsense"
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it's a bit ?!?!---but Terry Tao has a nice blog post on it and it's not so nonsensical.
17:35
@Danu: Warner's proof is ad hoc and more elementary.
Glad to see I came in on a nonsense debate :)
Oh, tern changed avatars again!
And I see @Balarka has blown up.
The geometry avatars rule! :D
I was the first! :P
Please, this is a topology avatar.
Thanks for weighing in on Hodge theory @Ted
Mike, you should appreciate how lucky you are that you have an adviser who reads what you write. I know many students who would have gladly had that!
Honestly, I am still not sure Chern ever read my thesis. I would bet a definitive NO.
17:38
@Ted I still think that if you're going to go through the trouble to prove the various estimates, you should just do it in Euclidean space. Sure, now you need to use the word "coercive form". Whoop-Dee-Doo.
@Ted I still think that if you're going to go through the trouble to prove the various estimates, you should just do it in Euclidean space. Sure, now you need to use the word "coercive form". Whoop-Dee-Doo.
I'm not sure to what you're referring, Mike. Rellich Lemma type stuff for regularity?
My 1 minute chess rating has skyrocketed today :D
@TedShifrin Sadface
I wasn't complaining about the response! Just amused.
@Danu: We had talked plenty and he knew what I did. But in the case of my one doctoral student and plenty of MA students I've advised, I spent literally days reading, criticizing, rewriting things, complaining about errors, complaining about style, etc.
Yes, I think that you should either do the symbol-theoretic proof or prove elliptic regularity on noncompact things.
17:40
I even have done it for students where I wasn't the official adviser. halo
I'm not qualified to debate this, Mike. But I do remember that Warner's whole trick is to reduce everything to the torus and use Fourier.
hi @TedShifrin
Hi Karim ... Why aren't you in class? :D
I really like Tu differential geometry
I don't know the book, but I know Tu pretty well. We were grad students at the same time.
@TedShifrin professor went to Mexico for a conference.
17:41
@Ted Yup. I'm not really debating, this is just opinion. I think I learned the "idea" a lot better when I did it on $\Bbb R^n$ and when I did it via symbols. I think Warner's proof is unenlightening.
I still don't call it differential geometry. Isn't his book just on differentiable manifolds?
But it could have just been unenlightening because I was a child.
Yeah he explains things very well he reminds me of your multivariable book explaining things very nicely and very nice exposition.
I don't disagree, @MikeM ... I told Danu it was ad hoc.
yeah I guess differential manifolds.
17:43
Karim: A lot of people don't agree with me, but if we're going to call it differential geometry, I want to see some sort of metric or some sort of connection.
I see
I guess our class we don't really do metrics but prof calls it differential geometry
@Ted I think there are other kinds of geometry, but of course I agree that manifolds by themselves are not geometry. Or else you'd have to call me a geometer.
If all you do is the structure of differentiable manifolds, vector fields, flows, tensors, differential forms, Stokes's Theorem, this isn't what I consider geometry. It's foundational stuff on manifolds.
yeah this is what we do @TedShifrin
I understand, @MikeM, but symplectic geometry and projective geometry have their own structures that make it more than a differentiable manifold. And a lot of more modern projective geometry is about projective connections :P
17:45
(EG, I think foliations are geometry; I think contact structures and Reeb orbits are geometry; I think Engel structures on 4-manifolds are geometry.)
But I said "differential geometry," not geometry. I don't want to get too broad.
I don't know anything about projective geometry. Who still does it?
Foliations can just be topology.
Depends on the aspect.
Chern & Griffiths did stuff. Robert Bryant. JM Landsberg. I did some stuff that used projective connections.
17:46
Same with contact structures.
Just using a differential form doesn't make it geometry, Mike! :P
No, but studying asymptotic structure of leaves at infinity or dynamics does, I think.
OTOH classifying manifolds that support taut foliations is topology, despite some definitions of taut foliation invoking a metric.
Yeah, it still seems topology to me.
I agree the line is very blurry.
Some differential geometry is mostly analysis and very little geometry. ... shrug
Well, I'm glad to fight in a back alley about it.
A martini is preferable to a fight.
17:49
Give me a glass of scotch and it's a deal.
This question turned out to be way more of a struggle than I'd expected. I've never seen such a parametrization of a circle! :D Has anyone here?
Nope.
Would it have been too painful to actually just integrate?
Well, the parametrization is awfully yucky without the double-angle observation. I didn't try differentiating.
In my undergrad diff geo class when I did the hyperbolic plane, I computed the geodesic curvature of such circles and gave an exercise (that only a few did) to show that hyperbolic circles are in fact Euclidean circles with different centers. That's not at all obvious.
@TedShifrin Yup, I did blowup.
I have a submanifold with nontrivial normal bundle now.
BTW, Balarka, your profile still says you are a number theorist. I have to question that.
17:57
Does it? It says "Interested in number theory. Studying topology."
Oh, I suppose you used to be interested in.
I don't disagree with what it says :)
Nah, I like number theory still
Well, these days you mostly like everything.
The stuff I understand, sure.
@Semiclassic: Do you have any insights into this?

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