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01:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

20:00
I've never heard of that theorem
@BalarkaSen Exercise 3.3.11 in GP is cool
@0celo7 Map from circle extending to ball?
That's quite obvious tho
Hey @Ted.
Hi @Balarka and @0celo
How was your day?
BTW, you guys, if you haven't seen this, you might find it interesting.
20:16
Ohh, that's a cool construction.
This is the beginning of the Frobenius Theorem/criterion for a subbundle of the tangent bundle to be integrable (i.e., for there to be a $k$-dimensional foliation whose tangent spaces are given by the subbundle).
@BalarkaSen How so?
One direction, yes.
But that it can be extended if the degree is zero doesn't seem obvious.
@TedShifrin Hi
@0celo: I'm not sure I know what you're talking about, but it's a very deep theorem (if you're talking about what I think you are).
@TedShifrin $f:S^1\to S^1$ can be extended to the disk if and only if the degree of $f$ is zero.
@0celo7 Well, perhaps not smoothly. But degree 0 means nullhomotopic :)
20:19
One of my homework problems from GP
Oh, then it's much simpler than the general deep theorem (Hopf degree theorem).
Right, you've proved that homotopy classes of maps $S^1\to S^1$ are given by degree.
With the usual bump function tricks, you're in business.
@TedShifrin No, that's Hopf.
Hopf in one dimension.
You don't need Hopf for this. It's "elementary."
I know the proof of Hopf using cobordism from Milnor.
@TedShifrin The hint says to use Hopf in one dimension, which I did.
20:20
Actually, in my humble opinion, that's not the right way to understand Hopf.
It's a previous exercise to prove Hopf in one dimension.
Yes, yes, I'm aware of all this.
I've only taught the course 8 times or so.
One lifts to universal cover in 1 dimension, I think?
Yup.
Smoothly.
Right.
20:22
And proves using calculus that the degree tells you where you end up.
@TedShifrin You're as old as my dad and I'm not used guys your age having a perfect memory ;)
I don't know whether to be insulted or flattered.
Neither.
Probably just as well.
How should I think about the Hopf theorem then?
20:23
@0celo7 Hopf in 1 dim tells you that deg 0 maps are nullhomotopic. Now you have to prove nullhomotopic maps from S^1 to S^1 extends over disk.
This is a topology exercise.
Need some work with bump functions for doing this smoothly, though, I think, like Ted said.
@BalarkaSen To make it smooth requires a little bit of finesse with bump functions, however.
I know how to prove it @BalarkaSen
But you used Hopf
@TedShifrin said it can be done without Hopf
@TedShifrin Fair enough.
@0celo7 Yes; don't mention "Hopf"
No, I don't call the $S^1\to S^1$ result Hopf. It's just covering spaces. Hopf is far, far deeper.
20:25
@TedShifrin I never said it was Hopf
I said it uses Hopf
Are you saying it can be proved without Hopf?
It does not use Hopf.
I think Hopf degree theorem is a very cool theorem. It works topologically, even.
It is a covering space result. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Hopf's general theorem (despite being a very special case of it).
@TedShifrin My proof follows the hint, which does
They call it Baby Hopf or something, but Baby it is.
20:26
It's 1 dimensional Hopf
We're arguing over nomenclature here. I'm making a philosophical point which you refuse to listen to.
I don't know what point you're making
Never mind.
I'm telling you I used Hopf in my proof. You're telling me I didn't.
I don't know what's going on.
I never claimed it was as deep or equivalent
First you have to stop talking so much about a terminology issue to know what point he's making.
20:27
I just said it's a cool result
@TedShifrin How should I think about Hopf then
If not via Pontryagin cobordism
@TedShifrin Looks like GP proves it via winding numbers
He's gone.
I'm going too.
His avatar is there
Why do you two get so annoyed by genuine confusion
Fun fact: not all confused students are trying to make your life hard
20:58
How do you find the limit $\lim_{n \to \infty} n \sqrt{2-2 \cos(2\pi/n)}$?
run away
@Jeff You type it into Mathematica
the answer is 2pi ... it's how we calculate the circumference of a circle. how does mathematica do it?
That's not how I calculate it.
You're doing some weird thing.
that's straight out of wolframalpha
21:03
maybe show it's equivalent to the integral you normally get for arc length
so far i've tried repeated l'hopital's. i tried l'hopital's and then try to fit the special trig limit of (1-cos x)/x, and something else which i don't remember.
I don't want to share the way I work it up because I can't prove that what I do will always work, though it does work here if you're interested in an infinitesimal argument.
sure
Surely some will recoil in disgust, but I take $\infty = 0^{-1}$ and $f(x+0\cdot y) = f(x) + f'(x)\cdot 0\cdot y$ as axioms. This leads to:
$${{\sqrt{2-2\,\cos \left(2\,\pi\,0\right)}}\over{0}}$$
$${{\sqrt{2-2\,\left(1-2\,\pi\,0^2\right)}}\over{0}}$$
$${{2\,\sqrt{\pi}\,0}\over{0}}$$
21:18
can you explain $f(x+0 \cdot y)=f(x)+f'(x)\cdot 0$?
@Jeff I would start with using that $1-\cos(x)=2 \sin^2(x/2)$
Q.E.D.
I'm sleepy and overly tired.
I'm out to take some sleep.
@user1618033 TY. worked (i always consider trig identities last, since i was never forced to memorize them (and never did after that).
@Jeff The intuition comes from $f(x)$ and its tangent line at $x$ being equal over the set of numbers that are equal to $x$, lol. A more reasonable argument follows from a bastardization of the definition of the derivative
Hello everyone, how to find x through a?
https://www.symbolab.com/solver/step-by-step/%5Clog_%7B6%7D%5Cleft(2%5Cright)%3Da%2C%20%5Clog_%7B3%7D%5Cleft(6%5Cright)%3Dx
***Consider at your own peril!***
$$f'(a) = \frac{f(a+0b) - f(a)}{0b}$$
$$f'(a)\cdot 0 b = f(a+0b) - f(a)$$
21:33
dear god
any ideas?
@0celo7 You have an odd tone, for a confused student, which forces us to assume you're trying to make our life hard. Just sayin'.
4
What odd tone?
This is a difficulty in chat compared to real life interactions, it is much harder to judge to tone with which something is said.
Something must be getting lost here
I used Hopf in my proof. Ted said I didn't. I objected. I don't see why he's upset.
21:45
Gah, forget it. Let us talk about math.
I am talking about math
Clearly Ted was trying to make a point that went over my head
Which happens a lot
And he's constantly annoyed by me
I can't help it
And what odd tone, seriously?
This is not equivalent to talking about math.
Keep comments like that to yourself unless you're willing to provide constructive criticism
@0celo7 That's a bit rude
He's saying that he doesn't want to talk about it, you can't force him to
Then why did he mention it?
All it does is make me feel bad, I can't correct the offensive behavior.
Interactions in this chat are truly strange.
21:51
As per the chat room description: "Rarely if ever expressible as a ratio of integers."
Is there a triangle inequality on $\Bbb C$? Is $|z+w|\le |z|+|w|$?
Sure. It's the same triangle inequality as in R^2.
Try a geometric approach and notice why it's called the triangle inequality
@Semiclassical Probably.
Only difference being that the difference between the (squares of) the two sides can be represented without using angles as one would do in the R^2 case.
21:55
I just realized I know how the proof works on any Hilbert space
...
Well, a physicist's proof, anyway
@Krijn What?
How do you know what a Hilbert space is but not realize that the inequality works on $\mathbb C$
@0celo7 1) I am not going to write an essay on why your tone is not right. 2) Clearly more than one person has been annoyed by you(r tone?), so I thought it was appropriate to mention as you don't seem to realize why we are annoyed. 3) It is your job to figure out and fix what's wrong with your behavior.
2
This is all I have to say about this.
@Krijn Lack of intelligence.
21:56
@0celo7 Speaking as a self-deprecating physicist, I'm obliged to point out that's a bit of a contradiction in terms :)
@BalarkaSen I can't figure out why. I'm just asking you to be helpful, dammit.
Could you please help me with logarithms?
Need to get x = 1/(1-a) from here:
https://www.symbolab.com/solver/step-by-step/%5Clog_%7B6%7D%5Cleft(2%5Cright)%3Da%2C%20%5Clog_%7B3%7D%5Cleft(6%5Cright)%3Dx
@Semiclassical Physicist's proof is not a proof, "physicist" is not an adjective there :P
Physicist's proof is one word
Proofs can be physicist's proofs, but physicists proofs can never be proofs
...i think you and i have different definitions of 'word' versus 'phrase' :p
You're a physicist, of course we define things differently.
22:00
@SuperMan When doing problems like this, the simplest thing is usually to write all logarithms in a common base e.g. $\log_b a=\dfrac{\ln a}{\ln b}$
while being prepared to make use of stuff like $\ln(xy)=\ln x+\ln y$ as necessary
But now, not sure how to express the x
to get x = 1/(1-a)
one cheap way to finish from there is just to add 1 to ax to get $1+ax = \dfrac{\ln 2+\ln 3}{\ln 3} = \dfrac{\ln 6}{\ln 3}$
which should look familiar
probably the more fundamental point is to recognize, though, that $a$ and $x$ can each be written in terms of $\frac{\ln 3}{\ln 2}$ alone
They can and I did it
22:08
if you can do that, then you can invert one of those relations and thereby solve for $a$ in terms of $x$
e.g. $1/a = \log_2 6 = 1+\log_2 3$ and $x=\log_3 6 = 1+1/(\log_2 3)$
and therefore $1/a-1=1/(x-1)$
from there the algebra is straightforward
@Semiclassical Thank you!
@Semi What is your field, actually?
What do you do in maths
condensed matter physics, technically
Or your interests, for that matter
22:17
but what i've tended to work on is stuff that can be broadly described as 'applications of asymptotic analysis'
I say 'applications of' because I don't really care about more foundational stuff. I'm more interested in "Hey, what kind of answers do I get if I apply these techniques?"
What is asymptotic analysis?
I may have only heard the term in Dutch, or I might just not know
well, the simplest example is probably steepest-descent stuff
Path integrals?
It's related, yeah, though steepest-descent itself is much simpler
Suppose you've got an integral like $\int_{-\infty}^{\infty} e^{-s f(x)}\,dx$
and for simplicity suppose that $f(x)$ is some smooth convex function with minimum $f(0)=A$ at 0
then that exponential function will be peaked at $x=0$ and decay away from it. moreover, the larger $s$ is, the more sharp that peak
in that case, one can approximate $f(x)=A+f''(0)x^2/2$ and get the estimate $e^{-s A}\int_{-\infty}^\infty e^{-s f''(0)x^2/2} = e^{-s A}\sqrt{s f''(0)/2}$ (I may be getting the Gaussian wrong)
that means we've managed to get an asymptotic estimate (i.e. the behavior as $s\to\infty$) of that integral in terms of just $f(0)$ and $f''(0)$
I see
22:27
And that's an idea that has a lot of generalizations and applications
it's a way to get Stirling's approximation of $n!$, for instance
Ooh, could we do that?
I'll give the setup, the details are easy
Basically, one uses the following integral identity: $n!=\int_^\infty e^{-x}x^n \,dx$
Just finished a 45 minute battle with an inequality.
Feels good.
Move the x^n into the exponent and look for where the resulting function has a critical point
I'll try in a couple of minutes, thanks!
22:40
following up, when you do the same idea in the context of path integrals in physics, you get a leading 'classical' contribution plus a first quantum correction
and the requirement that one evaluate the contributions at the 'critical point' in this context leads to the classical equation of motion
I would ask you about path integrals but I'm concerned I will get measure theory in response
Nope.
I've never actually taken a course in measure theory, for better or worse
Though giving a good description of path integrals is tough
Good
Danu gave a summary a while back, I think, which wasn't bad at all
Sometimes the physics chat devolves into path measure things
22:47
My physics is horrible to be honest
I'm currently trying to figure out why this proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra does not work for $\Bbb R[x]$...
This should not be so hard
What are you trying to do?
Figuring out why $x^2 + 1$ is irreducible, or something?
here's Danu's description of path integrals: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/30917551#30917551
with some input from me
@Krijn No, GP proves FTA using intersection theory and I'm trying to figure out where it fails for $\Bbb R$.
@Semiclassical Seems pretty standard
Sure. But no measure theory that I can tell :P
22:51
They use circles in $\Bbb C$, which would be $\{-r,r\}$ in $\Bbb R$
and functions on this set cannot be smooth
what does smooth even mean in that case?
23:17
@0celo7 Projective geometry and intersection theory fails miserably in non algebraically closed fields.
23:37
If $A$ and $B$ are positive definite, is it obvious that $\text{tr}(A^{-1})> \text{tr}((A+B)^{-1})$?
I can show it's true using the Weyl inequalities, but I feel that this must be trivial
well, the trace acts linearly on matrices, so that's equivalent to proving $\text{tr}(A^{-1}-(A+B)^{-1})>0$
and $$A^{-1}-(A+B)^{-1} = A^{-1}[I-A(A+B)^{-1}]=A^{-1}[A+B-A](A+B)^{-1}=A^{-1}B(A+B)^{-1}$$
@Lepidopterist Do not use \text for operators, use instead \operatorname.
thanks @PedroTamaroff. @Semiclassical how does this help?
I'm just commenting on the TeX here.
i understand. the question was for @Semiclassical
23:46
well, i'm not sure it does. but now you've got the claim $\operatorname{tr}(A^{-1}B(A+B)^{-1})>0$ which seems easier to work with?
i mean, if $A$ and $B$ are positive definite then so are $A^{-1}$ and $(A+B)^{-1}$.
@Semiclassical I'm stuck on a somewhat trivial problem
@0celo7 Okay?
Let $f:S^1\to S^1$ be smooth, then there is a smooth $g:\Bbb R\to\Bbb R$ such that $f(\cos t,\sin t)=(\cos g(t),\sin g(t))$ and $g(t+2\pi)=g(t)+2\pi q$, for some $q\in\Bbb Z$
I have no clue how to find $g$ or $q$ :/
i guess if they commute they are simultaneously diagonalizable, right @Semiclassical?
You're supposed to find $g$ on $[0,2\pi]$ and then extend semi-periodically
23:50
yeah @Lepidopterist. but can you assume that in your problem?
@0celo7 I probably can't help here. But geometrically, that $f$ corresponds to some curve drawn on a torus
Uhhh
I thought to write $f(\cos t,\sin t)=(x(t),y(t))$, then $g=\cos^{-1}x(t)+2\pi k$
but apparently $q$ is unique, no clue what fixes it
and then the geometric point is simply that if I cut the torus and smoothly twist it, I can make the curve closed
@0celo7 hmm
(well, I do know, but I do not need it for this problem)
(if that makes sense)
I know the "deep" reason behind $q$ being unique
But I know that's not necessary for this
@0celo7 (it doesn't, but i presume it's not necessary)
anyways, hmm
@Semiclassical $q$ is fixed by the homotopy class of $f$
But that problem is after this one :P
So presumably one does not need that
23:56
yeah, i'm confused myself
actually @Semiclassical, can't you use the fact that $\operatorname{trace}(AB)\le\operatorname{trace}(A)\operatorname{trace}(B)$?
probably! i'm not that great with trace inequalities since i don't use them much
it's clear that $g(2\pi)=g(0)+2\pi k$ for some $k\in\Bbb Z$
i.e. that could be true
actually, nevermind. that only gives an upper bound. we need it lower bounded away from zero
it could be $k=0$
23:56
what i said is true, it just won't be enough here
but the cosine and sine are insensitive to adding $2\pi k$
What's the problem statement, exactly?
hmm.
nothing in there explicitly requires that $q$ be unique, though
@Semiclassical A later exercise says that $\mathrm{deg}\,f=q$.
23:59
hrm.
(I do not know how to do that exercise, either.)
But I want to figure this out first
maybe if I understand where $q$ comes from, I can do the other one
(which is a homework problem)
I mean, I really do default back to geometry here
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