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00:09
Quick check of understanding time: in the quotient ring $\mathbb{R}[x] / \langle x^2 \rangle$, for any real coefficients $a,b$, $abx^2 \in \langle x^2 \rangle$ as it is a multiple of $x^2$ by some $r$ in the ring $\mathbb{R}[x]$, correct?
Max
Max
00:46
Hi
does any1 know any website or book which fully references the following theorem:
Those X are functions from R^n into R^n
@BenjaminR yes. what's the point of having two different a and b numbers? you can just say $cx^2\in\langle x^2\rangle$ for any $c\in\Bbb R$.
@anon Yes, sorry, there is no reason except it was on my mind because I am using that fact to answer a homework question, that's all!
01:48
wakey wakey eggs and bakey
@BalarkaSen
 
2 hours later…
03:19
4000 points wahooo!!
Just a crazy musing of mine
but is there such a thing as two nonexistent limits being equal
after all
if they both turn to nonexistence in the same manner, then they would have equal nonexistent theoretical values?
like
f(x) and f(x+a)
if one point in f(x) dne
then that point could be said to be equal to the same point on f(x+a)
we cannot quantify the number...
but they would still be equal
03:48
huh
04:03
38 mins ago, by TheGreatDuck
then that point could be said to be equal to the same point on f(x+a)
perhaps you could use better english there
anyway. yes, it is possible for two functions to diverge similarly. in particular, L=lim[f(x)-g(x)] can exist and be 0 at a point, even if limf(x) and limg(x) don't exist. even if L isn't 0, if it exists it can measure the difference between how fast f(x) and g(x) diverge. more generally, asymptotic theory (big O notation, etc.) can classify functions based on growth using equivalence classes, and one can speak of which class f(x)-g(x) is in.
So, your musing is not so "crazy" after all :p
48 mins ago, by TheGreatDuck
we cannot quantify the number...
...then it's not a number.
in The h Bar, 38 mins ago, by 0celo7
"The introduction of numbers as coordinates...is an act of violence..." - H. Weyl
04:21
it's not clear to me that quote is related to number theory (as you mention in hbar) or duck's musing on limits
Hello.
arctic stranger
 
1 hour later…
05:51
A whisper to the void
06:33
@Akiva And... the... void... whispers... back!
After around forty, forty-five minutes
Minuscule compared to the time of the universe. Don't worry about it.
Tomorrow, I take a test that will either reinforce or destroy the illusion that I am at all competent in Spanish. Most likely the latter.
(It's 2:35am and I'm up studying. But I have coffee, so it's OK, right?)
I am sure you'll do good. Best wishes from me, not that it matters.
Thanks…?
.
06:36
'?' :P
06:52
I wish the chemistry chat had the same amount of activity as the maths chat... I have so many questions which are not fit for the main site
@Albas Isn't the math main site also like a million times as busy as the chemistry one?
Yes it is@TobiasKildetoft
i think stackoverflow is the only site busier than mse.
Hello@BalarkaSen
06:56
Do you guys know anyone on this maths chat who can help me with a bit of chemistry (like SemiC for physics)
@BalarkaSen Yeah, it is a wonder to me that SO is useful for anyone by now with the amount of traffic. But I suppose people sort by tags or something
No idea, Albas.
@Tobias I suppose.
@BalarkaSen What are you up to?
@Tobias I woke up, got a haircut, now trying to solve a problem Mike gave me.
07:06
You should have been solving that while getting the haircut. Better time management :)
not sure if that works
Well, I was still sleeping while I got the haircut.
So I did manage the time, just in a different way than yours.
ahh, also good time management
:D
What about you?
Still writing stuff. Didn't get much done during the conference (which is a good thing because it means I found the talks good enough that I did not do something else instead of listening). Getting close to finishing the paper (I think)
Or at least most of the talks were decent. As always there were a few really awful one (like this one guy who spend about 3 slides defining what a groupoid was)
07:11
Good to hear.
Also, one guy gave a talk that made no sense at all. Then when I took a look at the paper it was based on it turned out that indeed that paper also made no sense at all (I thought he had chosen to just try to define things more informally in the talk, but it turns out that there were no clear definitions in the paper either).
Yikes.
But this is the sort of thing to be expected when the conference has both invited speakers and talks from people who asked to be able to give one when they signed up (the latter obly getting 30 minutes which is also a bit of a challenge)
Overall, the quality was better than I have experienced before though
Usually, only a few of the short talks are worth anything, because often they are by PhD students talking about some small technical details (this being all they have to talk about yet)
and this was not nearly as much the case this time
@TobiasKildetoft Why do the conference invites people of the second group?
@BalarkaSen To give them an opportunity to make people aware of the work they are doing (conferences are supposed to be good networking opportunities after all)
07:20
@MikeMiller "$L$ is orientable iff it is trivial" is of course the easy part, because of course it is orientable if it is trivial and if it is orientable, the choice of basis at each point gives a nonzero global section. I am trying to see the "iff $L\setminus X$ is disconnected" part, which I have no idea yet how to approach.
On a related note, if $L$ is nontrivial then any global section has to have zeroes. In pictures, that seems to mean no matter how I perturb $X$ inside $L$, I always get nonzero self intersection of $X$ with the perturbed itself. So I am wondering if something like that can be formulated.
E.g. if $W$ is a $k$-submanifold of $M$ and the cohomology class representing $W$ in $H^k(M)$ has nonzero cup product with itself, shouldn't the tubular neighborhood of $W$ in $M$ be nontrivial?
As in, the circle at infinity in $\Bbb{RP}^2$. There is no trivial tubular neighborhood because otherwise I can take a global section, which a perturbed version of the circle inside the neighborhood, and those two circles have trivial intersection - can't happen in $\Bbb{RP}^2$.
07:36
@Balarka That doesn't make sense, I'm sorry. An orientation is an equivalence class of bases at every point. Not a basis at every poijt.
The latter is a trivialization (also known as a framing).
I thought it was a choice of basis at every point in the fiber such that they are equivalent upto the transition functions in the intersection of the charts.
I'm confused.
I am not saying a smooth choice of basis at every point- that'd be a parallelization for a manifold. I am just saying choice of basis at every point such that given charts $U_i$ and $U_j$, the transition functions take one basis to another equivalent basis from $T_p M$ to itself, $p \in U_i \cap U_j$. I.e., transition functions have fiberwise det +1.
Isn't that equivalent to "equivalence class of bases at every point"?
Positive determinant, not detwrminant +1.
The former is an orientation. The latter is a volume form.
Ah, whoops, right.
Good point.
That said, I can choose a unit norm vector in each fiber of the line bundle $L$ such that it's equivalent to the basis coming from orientation at that fiber. That's a smooth section, right?
In fancy language, the structure group of a vector bundle is GL_n (that's where the transition functions live). We're talking about various kinds of "reductions" of the structure group. GL^+ is an orientation; SL is a volume form; O is a Riemannian metric; SO is a Riemannian metric and orientstoon
yes, that's true. note that you wanted to assume you have a Riemannian metric here (a reduction to SO(1)) to get this easily.
ignore the past garbage. yes, once you have a metric, I agree. That's the construction I was looking for.
@MikeMiller Ah. I am not used to this stuff. Good point about the Riemannian metric, sigh.
07:47
I told you you were allowed to have one
ask me about your ideas tomorrow. they're good n
alright.
Also with the above: I wonder if, once you prove that triple wquivalence about line bundles, you can prove that closed hypersurfacees of Euclidean space are orientable
So I need to prove any codimension 1 closed manifold in R^n has a smooth normal field. Hmm. I'll try.
Being closed is an important condition, as the Mobius strip is then an obvious ctrexample. So I need to use that somehow. Hmm.
Max
Max
08:30
Max
 
3 hours later…
11:44
@DanielFischer Hi, If I have a connected metric space $E$ and $A$ a connected subspace of $E$, and for all $x\in E$ there exist a unique $y\in A$ such that $d(x,y)=\min_{z\in P}d(x,z)$, if we look at $y$ as a function of $x:f(x)$ do you think that $f$ is continuous?
@JeSuis What is $P$? Probably you meant $A$?
@DanielFischer yep sorry
I would start trying to prove that the projection is continuous. I'm not entirely sure yet it is, but if it isn't, the difficulties you meet trying to prove continuity will probably help constructing a counterexample.
12:00
Ok thanks for the idea
12:27
@JeSuis Isn't $\mathbb R^2\setminus\{0\}$ and unit circle a counterexample?
I mean $E=\mathbb R^2\setminus\{0\}$ and $A=S^1$.
12:48
How do I find the genus of the curve $y^2=(x-1)(x-2)(x-3)$ after compactifying it? (by adding 2 points at infinity)
 
2 hours later…
15:13
morning
Morning.
Mornin'
Gnight, @MikeM and @Balarka. Morning, @skull.
Hello Professor @TedShifrin
15:31
Hello, @Ted!
I'm trying to prove that a smooth retract of a smooth manifold is a smooth submanifold, @TedShifrin. It's one of your homework problems, apparently.
It's a classic exercise.
I think I mentioned it to you ages ago.
That was one of the first problems someone (a Ted student) gave me at UCLA.
Yeah, I think you did.
So, what's your approach?
@MikeM: I've actually heard from that someone recently.
That's a rare event.
15:35
I know.
I'm done grading. Today I'll do a bunch of paperwork and be done with all formal obligations for... like a week
keeping fingers crossed I think I'm finally done teaching/grading forever.
Other than dealing with annoying Balarkas et al. here :D
So this is probably the most time I've had to work in a long time. :P
So get out of here and do some work!
I'm on the bus!
And today is paperwork day.
15:41
Ah ... Well, I'm actually descaling my espresso machine, so I need to get to the kitchen to avoid floods. Happy day!
My goal this Summer is to learn logic, because if you pass the logic qual you get the key to the logic room, and they have an espresso machine in there.
@TedShifrin: I don't have one yet, so I am trying to come up with some smart thing to say and claim it as my approach. :P
Here are some immediate thoughts. $r : M \to M$ is a smooth map with image sitting inside $A$, and leaves $A$ identity. So for a point $a \in A$ in the interior, $Dr(a)$ is identity. I think the same works on the boundary points upto change of charts by continuity of $Dr$.
Not sure how that helps, but I am thinking
Sounds...logical @MikeMiller
@MikeMiller lol at your motivation for studying logic
@DanielFischer Just out of curiosity, why did you want to know about timestamps on AoPS?
15:44
Hi @RandomVariable
@skillpatrol Hello
@Balarka Also, didn't you have things you wanted to talk about earlier?
Oh, yes, I had some cohomological obstruction for trivialization of normal bundle of a submanifold inside some ambient manifold, I think.
But would you mind if I finish thinking about this problem I am thinking about now before talking about that though? I just want to get it done first.
Thanks for your time.
15:56
@PedroTamaroff hello
heya @anon :)
@Balarka: What's your main technique for proving something is a submanifold (other than just a definition)?
Happy end of year, @anon :)
Preimage theorem?
Sounds good to me.
16:03
@Ted I don't think he needs a hint. He's a clever boy.
I'm done with hints.
I'm usually cheaper with 'em than you are, btw. :)
BTW, @MikeM, did our mutual friend ever ask you to give an explicit trivialization of $T(S^1\times S^2)$ or $T(S^1\times S^n)$?
I don't remember. I'm happy with my in explicit one.
I'm not :D
heya, DogAteMy!
The doctor'so appointment I came to campus for was cancelled right as I got off the bus.
That truly sucks.
But I have three doctors' appointments in the next 10 days, so I balance you out.
16:07
This is the second time they've done something like this.
They hate you specifically.
@TedShifrin Hi! [tries not to accidentally derail conversation]
There is no serious conversation to derail, DogAteMy :)
I want to say if $x \in A$ then there exists chart around $x$ such that $r$ is locally erasing a bunch of coordinates. Intuitively, that seems right, but going to try to prove it.
Probably. I'd go somewhere else if ky insurance allowed.
16:08
Kentucky?
Well, that's tautologically correct, @Balarka.
I mean, there is a chart $U$ around $x$ such that $U \cap A$ is a linear subspace and $r$ is removing coordinates. Is that tautological? Then we'd be done with proving $A$ is a manifold, I mean.
Yes, that's the tautological definition of an embedded submanifold.
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, sure. I am just trying to see what kind of definition I'd want to use to prove that $A$ is a manifold, maybe.
OK, Mike has banned me from further conversation with you. Work hard.
Today is Muhammad Ali's funeral :'(
16:12
Soon enough it'll be mine, too, @skull ... except there won't be one.
Nah, you're healthy.
And old :D
OK, I'll be back later.
16:14
Ah, so after all I want to prove that $Dr$ is of some fixed rank around points on $A$, no?
It's your job to tell us what you want.
16:29
Anybody in here think of 'differential calculus' as living in 'locally-convex topological vector spaces'?
curls up into fetal position Oh god he said "topological"
@MickLH I dare you to explain the notion of a neighborhood base to a five year old, it can be done, might take 5 years to see why :p
hey @classic
morning, chat
@bolbteppa I challenge you to explain it to me and see if you can discern a difference between that, and explaining to a 5 year old.
16:37
@MickLH how would you explain the idea of topology to a 5 year old?
I wouldn't!
@Semiclassical Good morning :)
point-set, or algebraic? :p
@bolbteppa Not really. Frechet spaces at best, and then you probably want to restrict to tame Frechet spaces and tame maps.
@bolbteppa I guess that makes sense?
I like algebraic topology better than point-set, but then I don't actually try to prove most of the things I see soooooo
16:41
Or normed instead of topological. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're talking about
So here mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de/Math-Net/Lehrveranstaltungen/… they claim to do calculus on locally-convex spaces, and there is a book by Colombeau that seems like it should be in Bourbaki's catalogue that does real/complex calculus in locally-convex spaces
Sorry, I got distracted. @MikeMiller Yes, I think that's exactly what I want. If $Dr$ has fixed rank $k$ near $A$, then for every point $p \in A$, then I can choose charts around $p$ such that $r$ is removing $n-k$ coordinates. That does imply $A \cap U$, where $U$ is the chosen chart, is diffeomorphic to $\Bbb R^k$.
And in none of this can that holy child, the inverse function theorem, survive.
I am just wondering why anybody would care to do such a thing, what is the point in going from Banach spaces to Frechet or Locally-convex spaces, I'm guessing the point is for distributions?
if a group is acting on a set, does a subgroup of this group also have to act on the set?
16:44
Oh, the middle step is not a hard one to make: shouldn't $C^\infty(M,N)$ be a smooth manifold?
There hasn't really been a time when I've wanted to think about manifolds of distributions, and I don't think such a theory would work very well (Frechet manifolds already toe the line). Now it's not hard to justify doing functional analysis on these spaces (though you should talk to Daniel Fischer about that). But differential topology is mostly impossible.
@bolbteppa You certainly need more than just a topological vector space, right? At least a norm, as Akiva mentioned, and completeness. Without completeness a lot of things goes wrong.
E.g., Banach fixed point theorem hence the inverse function theorem.
*norm induced from translation-invariant metric.
Frechet spaces do not have a naive inverse function theorem. Drop the last sentence.
I see that @Balarka is getting distracted, as always.
@BalarkaSen well you can do calculus in Frechet spaces which use semi-norms, so already the idea of using a norm to do calculus is being weakened
@Obliv: Of course.
16:48
@MikeMiller Hmm, I remember that we had a discussion on that, but I don't remember what you said.
I'll duck out of this since I know nothing about functional analysis.
@TedShifrin Well, I have an idea.
So carry it out.
In any case, the questioner doesn't seem to care about what I had to say, so I'll drop that subject too.
Hard to do calculus in an incomplete vector space.
what map is used in the condition of the elements of the kernel of a group acting on a set $A$? like $ker~ G = \{g \in G ~|~...(g) = I_A\}$? I'm told to show it's the same as the kernel of the corresponding permutation representation $G \to S_A$ I know how to define the kernel of the latter
"Kernel of a group"?
oh i'm sorry
it said kernel of an action of a group
okay that makes sense then
16:55
It means what you said. It's the kernel of the homomorphism $G\to S_A$.
@MikeMiller what do you mean about making $C^\infty(M,N)$ a smooth manifold?
Wouldn't it be nice if it had a smooth structure so you could do standard calculus to it? So you could say things like "A smooth map $X \to C^\infty(M,N)$ is the same thing as a smooth map $X \times M \to N$"?
So you could have smooth approximation theorems, and much of your intuition about manifolds carries over.

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