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00:00
@Asaf Ah, that's nice. The ultrafilter theorem tells us there are at least continuum many, since we can just extend filters containing some combination of singletons and co-singletons.
But I see that's already enough to imply the full result!
Also, would you happen to know why $\kappa$-complete means that infima/suprema of sets of cardinality $< \kappa$ exist, rather than sets of cardinality $\le \kappa$?
00:13
@ZhenLin It's easier to talk about $\omega$-completeness as being a filter, and $\omega_1$-completeness as being countably closed. Otherwise you would have to always say "closed under finite ..."
Ah, is that all? I noticed the same.
It's just a matter of convenience...
Trying to wrap my head around the inclusion-exclusion principal, how could I express the union of n-sets?
Furthermore, where can I learn mathjax such that I can take advantage of the notation on this site? Perhaps there is a tool that builds the expressions for beginners?
Which School's Principal is Mr./Mrs. inclusion -exclusion
@Incognito :)
@KannappanSampath Haha. The school of I wish they taught me this in highschool.
00:27
Just joking!!
@Incognito Do You know LateX?
Do you use AoPS?
I've been thinking of learning TeX for some unrelated purposes.
I have no strong academic background or any requirements from an ivory tower. I'm that guy who finds out years after school finds out he's really into math.
For what it's worth, I do write code daily, so learning TeX is likely within my grasp.
Visit AoPS and get to their LaTeX section
And, you'll learn the commands and other stuff from there.
Yes. They have TeXeR which can warm you up for the site.
Excellent.
00:33
I am afraid there's no tool that builds stuff for beginners.
My core skill set is software, I'm trying to learn some math and find out how to express it in my software.
I know how some things work, but my "literacy" of math is very poor, in my own opinion.
No probs. Catch You Later. Visit the site often. You'll learn.
Cheers.
00:49
@Incognito, what do you mean with "how could I express the union of n-sets?"
@JacopoNotarstefano Wikipedia express the following:
My mathematical literacy is not high enough to fully understand this.
I understand the first few terms, but the second line begins to confuse me.
That equation is generalizing the cases for n=2 and n=3.
The last term looks very scary, but it's very simple:
I'm attempting to understand how to implement that as a solution.
So in the instance of solving n=4 or n=5, I am unsure.
00:52
(-1)^n is a common pattern in formulas to denote a quantity that is 1 when n is even, -1 when is odd.
My end goal is to be capable of expressing that generalization as software.
Put it differently, it expresses the sign of the expression it is multiplying.
Ah, so that's a way to flip the addition/subtraction.
If you did understand the case for n=3, then you're set!
What's the cardinality of the union of A, B and C?
Well, it certainly isn't bigger than the sum of the cardinalities of A,B and C.
But then I'm counting elements that are in both A and B, A and C, B and C twice. One time for being in one set, one time for being in the other.
Cardinality is the size of the value?
00:56
The cardinality of a set is the number of the elements it has.
For instance, is the cardinality of 3+4 is smaller than 3*4?
Ah.
I see.
The set of cards in a deck has a cardinality of 52.
[1, 2, 3] < [1, 2, 3, 4]
to denote the cardinality of the set A you'd most likely use |A|
So for n=4, I would sum the series a,b,c,d negate unions of (a,b), (a,c), (a,d), (b,c), (b,d), (cd), but I'm unsure what the next steps might be.
00:59
Ok. Back to the previous example, with n=3.
Okay.
So, the quantity |A| + |B| + |C| - |A \cap B | - |A \cap C| - |B \cap C| is a more accurate approximation of what we want.
(\cap is the LaTeX symbol for the intersection of sets. The reversed "U" you are seeing in those formulas.)
Right, except the central union is negated one more time than needed.
But wait! If an element is in A, B and C then we are adding it three times (for being in A,B,C)
|A \cap B \cap C| is missing.
01:02
but also removing it 3 times for being in the mutual intersections.
so we must add those elements back, and add |A \cap B \cap C| to our formula, which is now correct.
Now, the case for n>3 is similar.
That makes sense to me for the case of n=3, but how to derive this from that equation is unclear to me.
Substitute n=3 in that big scary formula, and check that you're getting the same result.
What is j representing?
Ah. Ok. j is an index.
I take that you're familiar with programming, right?
Yes.
The summation symbol reads like a for loop to me, but I'm not familiar with the presentation of it.
01:07
Mh. there was a question on the main site about this. Let me dig it up.
Thank you.
What's is saying is: take all possible triplets of i,j,k between 1 and n. Calculate the quantity |A_i \cap A_j \cap A_k|. Sum those quantities.
which has the interpretation: add back all those elements that were in three sets.
for (i,j,k;i<n;i++,j++,k++){} ?
Yes, that nasty triple loop.
oh no, wait
Is it one loop with three variables, or three loops?
I'm unsure how to think of this.
01:13
for(i=1;i<=n;i++)
for(j=1;j<=n;j++)
for(k=1;k<=n;k++) {}
argh, my indentation...
Those are supposed to have some indentation, and maybe some parentheses (depending on the language)
What you were expressing with that loop is something different: it selects the indices like (1,1,1), (2,2,2)...
so if n=3 we iterate...
(1,1,1), (1,1,2), (1,1,3)
(1,2,1), (1,2,2), (1,2,3)
(1,3,1), (1,3,2), (1,3,3)
(2,1,1), (2,1,2), (2,1,3)
(2,2,1), (2,2,2), (2,2,3)
(2,3,1), (2,3,2), (2,3,3)
(3,1,1), (3,1,2), (3,1,3)
(3,2,1), (3,2,2), (3,2,3)
(3,3,1), (3,3,2), (3,3,3)
argh.
Ok, I was mistaken.
it's not even that.
This is the gap I'm trying to cross: software and math.
Trust me, I feel your frustration :). Hah.
I solved project euler #1 using my understanding of math only to find out later that I have a critical flaw in my general form because I don't understand this problem.
Wow. I'm bad. I can't write as if it were a loop.
Anyway, it's counting the number of triples of distinct integers between 1 and n.
And there is only (1,2,3) when n=3
so, if each set were ABC, and we represent them as binary we could do
00A, 0B0, 0BC, C00, C0A, CB0, CBA
Is that what you're trying to demonstrate?
01:21
I'm not really sure about your notation: A, B, C are sets?
Correct.
Oh, I see what the first sum statement is. One moment..
Ok. How many unordered triples can we found with A,B,C?
just A,B,C, because the order does not matter
it has to be a triple, so we have to select them all. But it does not matter in which order we choose them, so it's only one.
slightly more interesting when n=4, and we have A,B,C,D
we first have to select 3 elements out of 4, which is the same thing as selecting the odd one out. So we can do it in 4 ways.
sum i, j. where 1<i<j<n...

  for (j=1;j<n;j++) {
      for (i=j;i<n;i++) {
	  Something takes place here
      }
   }
Is that somewhat accurate?
i=j+1
and we're set
because i < j
(and k = j + 1)
Yes, that's it. And apologies for being so utterly terrible with code.
So, the sum of i, j, k, where 1<=i<j<k<=n....
No, I appreciate all your effort. I could just as easily apologize for being so terrible with math :p.
All I ever learnt in highschool was sumation of a single variable, so I could understand things like sum for i, but not mixing the variables or constraints.
01:27
Anyway, that loop you wrote is on the right track.
Okay, so that bottom line of the equation, if I have my 3 nested for loops that step through each-other... what do I do with the term, what does the "..." indicate, and that final term means I'm adding or subtracting the intersection of all sets depending on n being even or odd?
you're summing or subtracting the cardinality of those intersection, depending on the number of sets in that intersection.
the ... indicate... ellipsis!
"I'm not writing down all terms, you get the gist."
Sorry, what does the ellipsis mean?
Ah.
So what terms should I expect to see?
We have that tripple-nested loop, subtracting ...?
Oh, wait, so if I have n=4 then ....
OH!
I understand this equation!
Now it makes sense!!
Thank you so much!
it gets worse. The next term is a quadruple-nested loop, which is summing over terms like |A \cap B \cap C \cap D|. It adds all them, and then this quantity is subtracted.
Hopefully this last sentence didn't shatter your eureka...
No no.
It all makes sense.
Cardinality dictates operation, summation takes place for all combinations between1 and n
Now to express this as code. Probably a recursive solution or something...
Thanks again, off I go to try this.
Good luck with that!
Cheers!
Bye bye.
Wow. I suck at coding. Anyway, good night everyone!
02:28
$ | \bigcup\limits_{i=1}^n A_i | = $

$ + ( \sum\limits_{i=0}^n | A_i | ) $

$ - ( \sum\limits_{i,j:1 \le i<j \le n} | A_i \cap A_j | ) $

$ + ( \sum\limits_{i,j,k:1 \le i < j < k \le n} | A_i \cap A_j \cap A_k | ) $

$ - ( \sum\limits_{i,j,k,l:1 \le i < j < k < l \le n} | A_i \cap A_j \cap A_k \cap A_l | ) $

$ \vdots $

$ + ( (-1)^{n-1} | A_1 \cap A_2 \cap \ldots \cap A_{n-1} \cap A_n |) $B
:D I now have a grasp on both the principle and latex/mathjax. Awesome.
 
1 hour later…
03:41
hello all
 
3 hours later…
07:04
hi @all
check this
0
Q: What is the name of a type of a hypothetical equilibrium of a dynamical system?

Rajesh DAssume there is a complex dynamical system which has only a one degree of freedom whose trajectory varies linearly with time. Given below is the variation of the generalized momentum ($p$) of the system with time. Neglect the small wiggles in the graph (they were due shaking of hand while drawin...

may be it belongs to dynamical systems of mathematics field ?
hi $\forall$
hi @nIKHIL
wassup @RajeshD
SORRY I HAD CAPS LOCK ON
oops
nothing much just a lazy day
what about you ?
just chillin'
07:10
do you have any touch with dynamical systems ?
no I am afraid not
are you from India ?
residing ?
07:14
are you from Bellary by any chance ?
i just asked as it is near to my place and appears in your surname
yes its true, as in ancestrally I am from there but done live there.
ok
so u from ?
Maharashtra, nearby Kolhapur
you?
07:30
I am from Guntakal, in Anantapur district of AP
07:49
@AsafKaragila Are you there?
....@ (<-- tumbleweeds)
BBL
08:16
@Matt You lack patience, young grasshopper!
08:33
@AsafKaragila : )
I meant it as a joke, I wasn't being impatient. I'm reading a book and if I sit next to the open chat window in this noisy chat room it's too distracting : )
hi all
Catch you later maybe.
hi @Zhen
08:49
@Matt agree. how are you? ah, you left
hi @Ilya
@Matt I see.
09:29
@Matt Either way I have to head out to the university and I might have some time later (before coming back home) today. I left you a comment with a mysterious and unexplained reason. I'll be happy to discuss this further in the gap between coming home in the evening and refill night.
09:56
@RajeshD heyhey
wtz up ?
@AsafKaragila That would be aces. See you later!
@Ilya Hi. I'm ok. How are you?
@Matt I'm ok too, will go to gym now, so see you later
See you later!
10:42
How's the functional analysis going, @Matt?
11:19
@JonasTeuwen Not. I've not done any since Friday and I cancelled the exam.
Whaaaaaiiiiii?
@JonasTeuwen : ) Calm down.
I'm taking it in summer. I thought I'd try something new. Rather than ignoring the course and then doing one term in 5 weeks I thought I could cancel it and actually understand some things properly this time.
I am calm.
Yes, that is a good idea.
With the side effect that I might still remember some of it the following term.
I'm doing some set theory at the moment.
11:41
Oh no.
12:00
Oh no.
12:17
Oh no. You guys are so funny.
Oh no. We aren't.
Oh no, a combo breaker.
Oh no, it is in history now (
 
1 hour later…
13:25
Times @@ Exp[2*Pi/N[Im[ZetaZero[Range[8]]], 30]]^-1
Exp[2*Pi/N[Im[ZetaZero[8]], 30]]

0.156038475339216033023505727944
1.156059840031155475145914537558 (Four decimals in common)
13:38
Oh no, what's that?
Oh no, what is that indeed? And why is the "Oh no" missing?
MaX
MaX
14:00
Hey guys!
14:34
is there someone here
@speedyGonzales yes, I am
well i was thinking to ask question like What is your favorite Math question to shut up so mouth. I think it will be some sort of spam
but i am not quite sure so i am asking here
@speedyGonzales What is your favorite Math question to shut up so mouth?
what does it mean?
so = someone?
And I am expecting answers like - With how many sticks you can make 4 Equilateral Triangles. - 6 sticks
Yes so means someone
or how many times you need to use a Libra to pick up a fake coin (with lower weight) out of 9. 2 times
at least I am not sure, how can you shut s.o. mouth with a math question
maybe I was doing it wrong last years
14:44
OK to blow him away, to make him very small pick up something
Do you think that a question of that sort will be consider as spam as this will be some sort of discussion
@Dan: hi
@speedy: I wouldn't advise you to ask such kind of question
Hi Ilya
how are you doing?
doing well I think
@Dan how are you
First few days of the semester in school, quite tired, but have not done any measurable work today :/
Man, I am so lazy I hate myself
How's your research going. You mentioned that you went to the conference in America?
15:00
@Daniil I was there. About lazyness - well, as for me it usually runs away if I have smth interesting to do and I can focus on it
otherwise without a focus I can't do anything valuable
have you heard this, btw?
Actually, I have not heard this before. It sounds quite nice.
it is a piano version of 'The great' Prelude and Fugue by Bach. Piano version is a bit softer
Piano cover done by Liszt, presumably.
certainly
but especially for this beloved thing I mentioned how much the player means
Hm, you haven't really linked to the specific video, so I am not sure what player are you talking about
15:10
where are you from Ilya
oh, sorry - the 2nd or the 3rd in this list
@Speedy: originally I am from Russia, but now in the Netherlands
Спасибо
Oh no! Rachmaninoff!
Oh no! why? :)
15:15
Oh no! Because it is so good!
JS Bach is the man
@JonasTeuwen have you heard about Saint-Preux? The Phytandros album of him is the most impressive that I've ever heard
Oh no! I have not. I will check it out.
@JonasTeuwen you can start with this if you want to check it out
Speaking of Bach...
I am also currently reading "Godel. Escher. Bach." which is a really fascinating book and I would recommend it to any person without even a slight sign of hesitation.
15:21
@Daniil hm, interesting. original, or in Russian?
@Ilya in Russian; I was lucky enough to find that book on my father's bookshelf
how is the translation? is it Eskin's one?
yep
@Daniil I think I have it, but never read it. Have you read Глас Господа (His Master's Mind) by Lem?
here is the English link
Sorry, Sci-Fi is not really my thing
15:34
well, that's not quite a Sci-Fi
it's more about the scientists. I'm not into SciFi as well
@AsafKaragila I have another question for later: If (X, <) is a partial order, why is the collection of all partial orders (Y,<) that are order isomorphic not a set?
afk again. bbl
16:31
Thank you, Martin!
So classes have to have strictly greater cardinality than any set?
Well, that's one diagnostic.
If you mean it in the sense there is no bijection between a set and a proper class, then yes.
I think this is more-or-less the way it's explained in one of the answers.
Those questions generated quite a few answers, so you can probably find there different approaches too.
Thanks, MartinSleziak and ZhenLin!
Basically, when you write down something like $\{ x : \varphi(x) \}$, what you have is a priori just a class. To prove it is a set you need to show that there is a set $X$ such that $\{ x : \varphi (x) \} \subseteq X$.
Oh, that's useful to know, thank you!
In Arturo's answer, does $f(A)=\{A\}$ is well-defined mean that $A=B$ implies $f(A) = f(B)$?
Probably. But I never know what well-defined means.
16:45
Yes, I suppose so. But that's obvious here...
Well, you're speaking about class functions here.
This question and Arturo's answer to it are cool : )
So that only thing is to see whether there is a formula $\varphi(x,y)$ such that:
a) $\varphi(A,\{A\})$
b) if $\varphi(x,y)$ and $\varphi(x,z)$ then $y=z$.
This is how I understand the notion of class function.
In this case I think you have $\varphi(x,y) \equiv (\forall z) (z\in y \Leftrightarrow z=x$.
I should have written that for all $x$ you have exactly one $y$ fulfilling $\varphi(x,y)$ instead in b)
But I think it's just technical details. Usually, they're not so important.
A purely semantic way of looking at the concept of "being well-defined" is to think about "presentations" or "names". So we have sets $X$ and $Y$ and classes $\tilde{X}$, $\tilde{Y}$ together with (class) functions $p : \tilde{X} \to X$, $q : \tilde{Y} \to Y$. We think of $\tilde{X}$ and $\tilde{Y}$ as being the class of "names" of elements of $X$ and $Y$, respectively, and the functions $p$ and $q$ take names to the thing that they name.
Now, if we are given a (class) function $F : \tilde{X} \to \tilde{Y}$, this does not necessarily descend to an honest function $f : X \to Y$.
Checking that it does is what people usually mean by checking that we have a "well-defined function".
What exactly are names?
16:54
Whatever they need to be for the application at hand.
Like for example?
For example, if $X = \mathbb{Z} / (p)$ then we can take $\tilde{X} = \mathbb{Z}$ and name residue classes mod $p$ by any integer, instead of arbitrarily restricting to integers $\{ 0, 1, \ldots, p - 1 \}$ as we usually do.
I will wait until you finish this discussion and save it in a doc-file for the history (namely, for the time I will learn modern set theory)
@ZhenLin Oh! Thank you!
Pffft, this is hardly modern set theory. It's just some naïve set theory, really.
16:57
@ZhenLin than I am as well naive ;)
I thought naive set theory was without classes.
Zhen Lin: Would well-ordered sets and ordinals (as their ordinal types) be another example of what you had in mind with names?
Naïve set theory just means non-axiomatic set theory...
And can you also show me an example where $\tilde{X}$ is a proper class?
Oh, the collection of all ordinals and a map mapping them onto their order types, thanks Martin.
With $X$ a set? I can only think of trivial examples...
for example, we might take $X = \mathbb{N}$ and $\tilde{X}$ the class of all finite sets...
17:01
Mapping a set to its cardinality is kind of the same as mapping an ordinal to its order type. : ) Cool. Thanks!
Ah, here's a non-trivial example: there is a set $X$ such that every (Hausdorff second-countable) manifold is isomorphic to an element of $X$. Then we can take $\tilde{X}$ as the class of all manifolds (which is a proper class!) and have a map $\tilde{X} \to X$ taking a manifold to an isomorphic manifold in $X$.
But I suspect showing that such a map exists requires global AC...
Or maybe not, if you're meticulous enough about the construction of $X$. Hm. shrug
18:06
@Matt Still need my help on that? I just got home, so I'll eat and then we can talk math.
18:28
Does anyone know more conferences that can be relevant for me? (Harmonic analysis maybe with applications to (S)PDE). I'll go to El Escorial at least.
The AMS Calendar surely doesn't show all of them...
18:50
@AsafKaragila Sorry was afk having dinner. Yes, I still need your help.
Everybody needs Asaf('s help).
Awesome. I have a new video adapter. Fan-less so it's so quiet!!!!
One less thing to drive me nuts now, only infinitely many other things remain to deal with.
: )
So what's up Matt?
Well, I finally need to understand this choice business.
19:03
You've come to the right man.
:D
Hi guys
Hi Daniil.
In this, why is it possible in the absence of choice that there is no injection from all countable ordinals into the reals but not with choice?
@Matt Do you mean an injection from each countable ordinal or do you mean from $\omega_1$?
19:05
The latter.
There are models in which there are no $\aleph_1$ real numbers.
What is an $\aleph_1$ real number?
For example, if the continuum is a countable union of countable sets then there are no $\aleph_1$ many reals, that is $2^{\aleph_0}$ and $\aleph_1$ are incomparable.
@Matt No, $\aleph_1$ real numbers, that is to say a collection of real numbers which is of cardinality $\aleph_1$.
Ah, that's missing a "t" then. Makes more sense : )
But how does that prevent me from having an injection? Why can't there be an injection from the countable ordinals into a countable union of countable sets? Do we know that the countable ordinals are uncountable?
Essentially there is a theorem that if there is a set of $\aleph_1$ distinct reals then there is a set of reals which is not Lebesgue measurable.
@Matt The set of all countable ordinals is $\omega_1$, it is of cardinality $\aleph_1$.
In models where every set of reals is measurable (i.e. Solovay's model, or the continuum is a countable union of countable sets) the continuum is incomparable with $\aleph_1$.
19:13
Cool, thanks!
Ok, that's it for now. But I might badger you some more later on or tomorrow. Ok?
Nice : )
19:28
Our "cousin" site is mentioned in the NY Times:
Our? Cousin site?
He means MO.
Yeah, I just remarked [very] sarcastically on the use of "our" and "cousin site".
Oh. Sorry for missing the sarcasm.
Is this a sarcastic reply?
19:35
No. : )
20:11
Quick question, what does $ \in $ denote?
Membership relation.
For instance, in the context of $ A_I = \bigcap_{i\in I} A_i $
$x\in A$ means that $x$ is an element of the collection $A$.
Ah I see.
Thank you very much.
In this content we say that $A_I$ is the intersection of all $A_i$'s where $i$ is in the index set $I$.
20:13
And the index is part of the whole collection of the series $ A_I $.
@ZhenLin That's one and a half question per day on average for that guy... Over three years.
 
1 hour later…
21:26
How could I express this as a general equation? math.stackexchange.com/questions/92086/…
22:11
@ZhenLin That is truly staggering.
Indeed. And the rep too.
And badges...

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