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00:00 - 14:0014:00 - 00:00

00:07
@MikeMiller I wanted to ask you a question
maybe you could tell me if you experienced this before
I did the snake lemma with myself at home and proved it on the board. When I went to prove it at professor office I got stuck :S
Is there a simple example of an infinite graph such that the existence of a spanning tree for it is equivalent to the axiom of choice?
I don't know why this happened
is there a way you do for you to avoid such things ?
do you forget proofs ?
@AkivaWeinberger Hi!!! What does the set $\{ (x,y,z,t) | t=4x^2+y^2, z=0\}$ represent?
@AkivaWeinberger Wouldn't the subset inclusion graph of the natural numbers work?
@MikeMiller how do you get past that? if you read enough research will you get good ideas?
00:12
@L33ter: I'm not sure Mike does, but us mere mortals certainly forget proofs.
@Evinda Have you tried graphing it?
yeah I hate that
@barrycarter What is that? Is that the graph whose vertices are subsets of $\Bbb N$ and whose edges go between $X$ and $Y$ iff $X\in Y$ or $Y\in X$?
@AkivaWeinberger Well, immediate subsets, so the additional condition that Y-X has 1 element.
$\subseteq$ not $\in$
00:16
And what @ForeverMozart said.
Ah, OK
Right, $\in$ doesn't make sense
Pretty sure that has a spanning tree even without AC
Really?
Wait, never mind
I forgot about infinite subsets
But then it's not even connected, is it?
It seems like it should, but it turns out that, even without using the real numbers, you can derive a case where you need the Axiom of Choice.
Er, you can get between any two subsets of N, at least in theory, by following edges.
I appreciate the suggested immortality, but I've spent most of today working out how to prove something I learned a while ago, so that I can prove something that's probably going to turn out to be trivial.
00:20
How? We're only allowed finite paths, no?
@AkivaWeinberger Hmmm. I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
I think there just has to be a sequence of edges.
But how do you have an infinite sequence with a start and finish?
@MikeMiller do you ever get jealous of other peoples research?
like angry you can't do something like that?
What edges do I follow to go from $\Bbb N$ to $\emptyset$?
@AkivaWeinberger Well, the empty set and the full set of na... that's my point.
00:22
@ForeverMozart: I think you mean envious.
You need the Axiom of Choice to create such a path.
There are an infinite (uncountable) number of such paths, but you can't name one explicitly.
@ForeverMozart Usually the approach is to either stare at it until I've broken down and started crying, at which I go home for the night, or (if I know something similar has been done somewhere else) to look at other things that deal with similar problems.
@barrycarter …I'm still confused how to even define an infinite path between vertices
@AkivaWeinberger OK, let me check that that's valid
00:24
i dont think I ever cried over math
@ForeverMozart What I wouldn't give to know half the things some of the people in my field do...
but I know what you mean by broken down
it can be very frustrating
@AkivaWeinberger math.stackexchange.com/questions/39360/… may or may not help
Remind me what your field is, @MikeMiller?
My approach to solving problems is to think about them, then curse at them under my breath, then curse at them loudly, then realize they were trivial.
00:26
Gauge theory. Or differential geometry. Or topology. Whatever you want to call me.
I am very envious of this other graduate student. He is very clever at defining nice sets, proving they have various properties, and then using them to prove his results.
a master set definer
@AkivaWeinberger I may have no idea what I'm talking about. The subset graph for N is just one of my favorite Axiom of Choice graphs that doesn't require the real numbers.
> Every finite connected graph has a spanning tree. However, for infinite connected graphs, the existence of spanning trees is equivalent to the axiom of choice. An infinite graph is connected if each pair of its vertices forms the pair of endpoints of a finite path. As with finite graphs, a tree is a connected graph with no finite cycles, and a spanning tree can be defined either as a maximal acyclic set of edges or as a tree that contains every vertex.
@barrycarter
From the Wikipedia entry "Spanning tree"
OK, my mistake. I thought infinite paths were permitted.
How about all finite subsets of N?
Doubt it. I think countable graphs don't need Choice
00:31
@AkivaWeinberger Hmmm.
Quote: Commutativity of A implies that $\pi(A)\subseteq \pi(A)'$. Also $\varphi$ is pure, which consequences that $\pi(A)'=\mathbb{C}1$

What does the prime on the set ' denote?
That's probably impossible to say without a lot more context.
Like hunting through whatever book you're reading (which I don't have the patience or time to do right now).
I try to use a piece of advice from Feynman. He said to no try too hard for a particular result, but instead to simply try to find out more about the object your are studying.
So if I am trying to prove something about a particular type of space, and it's too difficult, I try to prove some easier things about it.
luckily in topology there are lots of different properties to think about
There was a "horror story" I heard of, once: A student was preparing his PhD thesis on some sort of weird object (I forget what it was, I think it was some weird variant on metric spaces). …
@AkivaWeinberger So we need a graph with an uncountable number of nodes such that the distance between any two nodes is finite?
00:35
…The student proved all sorts of amazing results about it…
but no such space exists?
@AkivaWeinberger How about the complete graph on the real numbers?
Yeah. Either that, or it was only the one-point space.
oh, haha
You read this on MathOverflow and it was the set of $\alpha$-Holder functions with $\alpha$>1$.
00:36
Not necessarily, I've heard several variants of this story.
The version I've heard is with finite spaces, and that Milnor (who was on the commitee) pointed it out in the defense.
Fair enough. If it's happened once it's probably happened twenty times.
Yeah, Milnor was involved in the story I heard, but it was about rings.
I suspect it may have never happened to anyone.
@MikeMiller, I think it was one of the variants @MichaelAlbanese mentions, though I remember seeing that on MathOverflow as well
00:37
@MikeMiller me too
I also agree.
that is why you should always have examples of spaces with the properties you are working with
"These (objects) have remarkable properties if they exist"... "They also have those properties if they don't exist"
I similarly doubt KFG came up with anything as an elementary schooler to get out of punishment.
It would be an unfortunate advising relationship if your advisor didn't stop you from studying $\alpha>1$-Holder functions.
00:38
But if it did happen, I wouldn't be surprised if Milnor was the one involved. He's pretty good at mathematics.
The empty set has a remarkable set of properties.
@AkivaWeinberger But it exists.
Oh, never mind :)
You mean elements of the empty set...
(Although I suppose it's probably large enough to be a proper class)
The one point space is connected and totally disconnected. Incredible!
The story has probably been around in some variation or another since graduate school was an institution instead of just some flavor of mentorship.
00:40
@ForeverMozart As is the empty set, right?
yeah
but it is more trivial
The empty set isn't a topological space :P
In every topological space the empty set and the one-point sets are connected; in a totally disconnected space these are the only connected subsets (quoting en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_disconnected_space)
00:43
which is still a true statement for the empty set
"hereditarily disconnected" is sometimes used instead
The only thing I care about the empty set is which manifolds are (insert adjective here) cobordant to it.
@MikeMiller How can the one-point set be connected in the empty space?
there are no one point sets to it holds vacuously
Every one-point set in the empty space is connected.
00:44
Rats, you're right.
I agree with @PVAL that this sort of tautological trickery is pointless but for whatever reason I always engage.
@BalarkaSen
Does this integral have a closed form $$\int_0^{\pi/2}\sin^2x\,\ln\left(\sin^2(\tan x)\right)dx$$?
Anyone please? :)
@TheArtist Have you tried wolframalpha.com?
00:46
I am not paid enough to do integrals
@ForeverMozart Derivatives? Sums?
not outside of my calculus class
Lesbesgue integrals?
not since that graduate course
3 years ago
I try to forget everything besides topology, algebra, and graph theory, and maybe some discrete geometry. Those are the most beautiful areas and I don't have time to waste on anything else.
@MikeMiller: Maybe. Does $\mathsf{Top}$ have an initial object?
00:49
The empty space.
Oh, you're asking whether it's pointless.
The empty set is pointless, by definition.
I am not passionate about the fact that your category has an initial object. It's not even really clear to me why I should care. But the game we were playing wasn't the existence of the empty space, but about the empty quantifier over 1-point sets.
There are a lot of other games I would rather play, like smash bros.
@barrycarter no result from wolfram alpha
00:52
If we have a group and $x^2=y^2$ with $x\neq y$ can we assume an element of order $2$ exists?
mario cart on wii is the best game ever
@TheArtist Then there's a reasonable chance it's not integrable at all. It does approach negative infinity near 0 and oscillate infinitely near Pi/2
@TheArtist You'd have better chances on the main site: [main]
great stress reliever
00:53
I just saw some disagreement about whether or not the empty set is a topological space. The question I asked was just one I had previously come across where I genuinely had to consider this.
@barrycarter I see.
it is easy to show it is true if all the elements have finite order
@AkivaWeinberger geez now I'll have to write a post :/ (lazy)
@barrycarter Thanks mate :)
Technically, it's the underlying set to a unique topological space. Right? @MichaelAlbanese
so is the one point set
00:54
@TheKindCat So you have xxy^-1*y^-1 = e?
think about it all you want, but don't try to publish anything on the empty set :)
x * x = y * y, left multiply by y inverse and then right multiply by y inverse.
@barrycarter yeah
00:54
People tend to ignore the distinction between the topological space and the underlying set. Just like how you should ignore any sentence beginning with "technically" :P
@barrycarter does that help?
@TheKindCat No, I was just bored.
There is a unique topology on the empty set.
@TheKindCat So this is an infinite non-Abelian group, I take it (for the nontrivial case)?
@MikeMiller is all of your research closely related, or do you work on several different problems?
00:57
@barrycarter yeah, and it isn't torsion free
I am only working on one problem. There are some things I want to do with it, but I need to start somewhere.
@TheKindCat Wait. can you get x * y^-1 = y * x^-1 (I think you can)
i am afraid my advisor is not demanding enough
and he doesn't help me solve problems
:(
@ForeverMozart You are responsible for your success not her/him.
@barrycarter how?
01:00
yes I know but sometimes I wish he would try
@TheKindCat No, never mind, I'm wrong. Damn, this should be easy.
(or impossible)
@barrycarter you can get y^-1
oops
xy^-1=x^-1y
@TheKindCat Right. I was hoping to get something equal to its own inverse, but no luck.
like he wants me to solve the problem, but he doesnt try to solve it himself
so its not a collaboration
It isn't supposed to be.
01:01
@barrycarter you aren't going to be able to show x^2=e because that would be false
@TheKindCat Well, no, I was hoping for something like (x * y^-1) was equal to its own inverse, but it's not.
oh yeah
@TheArtist The integrand evaluates to a complex value when $x=4/3$
@TheKindCat And it's a group, not a field, right? :)
I would give one of my toes to solve this problem
01:05
Does $\langle(1~4~2~5~3~6),(1~3~2)(4~6~5)\rangle$ have elements of order $2$?
but not the big toe because then your foot will fall off
Oh, yes it does
@TheKindCat I got y = x * y * x^-1 not sure if that helps
Let $x:=(1~4~2~5~3~6)$; we have $x^3$ as an element of order two…
@barrycarter how?
01:10
@TheKindCat Start x * x = y * y then left multiply by y^-1 then right multiply by x^-1 then ..... nope, I got it by mistake, trying again.
:)
gtg
thank you barry
@TheKindCat No worries, I'll see if I can find anything.. of course, might be false
@AkivaWeinberger No, you're right, I think, but it turns out I can't establish that.
qui m'invite?
Does anyone know how I should think of integral homology and rational homology as different?
Is it always just that the betti numbers are the same, but rational is torsion-free?
02:01
hellllllllo
hello
do you know real analysis?
a little bit, I m learning it
ohhh.. have you done the definition of the limito f a function and then there's an accumulation point with a neighborhood
yes
02:06
did I do this correctly?

Let $ f: D \rightarrow R$ with $x_{0}$ as an accumulation point of D. Prove that f has a limit at $x_{0}$ if for each $ \epsilon >0$ there is a neighborhood Q of $x_{0}$ such that, for any $x,y \in Q \cap D, x \neq x_{0}, y \neq y_{0},$ we have $\mid f(x) - f(y) \mid < \epsilon$. \\

By the definition of a limit for the function and Theorem 2.3, we have $\epsilon >0$ and f has a limit at $x_{0}$, so there exists a $\delta$ such that for any $x \in ( x_{0} - \delta, x_{0} + \delta)$, we have $ \mid f(x) - L \mid < \frac{\epsilon}{2}$.\\
I'll get theorem 2.3 in a sec. it's about accumulation point and the neighborhood
hey @EricStucky
I want to ask a topology question
just a verification actually
2.3 THEOREM Let $ f : D \rightarrow R$, with $x_{o}$ an accumulation point of D. If f has a
limit at $x_{o}$, then there is a neighborhood Q of $x_{o}$ and a real number M such that
for all $ x \in Q \cap D \mid f(x) \mid \leq M$
I am working on it may take a while
let us say I want to compute the homology of torus using the maps instead of images of those maps.
Do I also have to provide the text to the definition of a limit of the function or nah?
02:10
so, first I have to define $\sigma_{\alpha}$ for each $\Delta^0,\Delta^1, and \Delta^2$
no no
i think you have given all necessary info
suppose the vertex of the torus is x. edges are a,b, and c and the faces are L and K
define $\sigma_1^{0} : \Delta^0 \rightarrow X = T$ where $[v_0] \mapsto x$
ok...but I'm wondering if I got it.. I think I did?! but it's good to have a second opinion
Here D is subset of $\Bbb R$, right?
oh yeah
D is the domain R is the real numbers
02:15
I think you have done it correctly
yay :)
But you should ask some expert like robjohn or someone else, since I am just learning @usukidoll
Torsion in homology captures a lot of information.
could you check another one? It's just taking the limit done differently. I've done it the calculus way and the method in the book. I got 1/2

Define $g: (0,1) \rightarrow R$ by $g(x) = \frac{\sqrt{1+x}-1}{x}$. Prove that g has a limit at 0 and find it.\\

The function g is represented as the quotient of two functions, but, unfortunately, both have limit 0 at zero, so let's write g in some other form. \\

$g(x) = \frac{(\sqrt{1+x}-1)}{x} = \frac{(\sqrt{1+x}-1)(\sqrt{1+x}+1)}{x(\sqrt{1+x}+1)}=\frac{1+x-1}{x(\sqrt{1+x}+1)} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1+x}+1}$. \\
owwwwwww you scared me D:
02:17
oh, sorry for that :(
@EricStucky: That was at you, forgot to ping.
okay
thanks :)
Sorry I missed you L33t, but it doesn't look like you finished your question?
sorry
had to get some food
and then $\sigma_1^1 : \Delta^1 \rightarrow T$ where it is defined as $[v_0,v_1] \mapsto a$
how do we take orientation into account though ?
and we complete doing this manner
I always did the homology calculation using the images, since I relied on my geometrical intuition to adjust orientation.
but professor want explicit calculation using maps instead of images
orientation is kinda weird
but is what I am saying above correct so far?
02:26
the way I learned it is that the standard simplex comes with an order of the vertices,
hatcher defines it as set of maps $\sigma_{\alpha} : \Delta^n \rightarrow X$
that satisfy certain properties
well idk
Please someone verify this:

If $f_{\alpha}:X_{\alpha}\rightarrow Y_{\alpha}$ is bijective for each ${\alpha}$ in index set $A$ then $f:X\rightarrow Y$ defined as $f(x)=\prod_{\alpha\in A}f_{\alpha}(x_{\alpha})$ is bijection where $X=\prod_{\alpha\in A}X_{\alpha}$ and $Y=\prod_{\alpha\in A}Y_{\alpha}$
can you see maybe if what I am saying makes sense
I mean it makes sense
02:34
$\sigma_1^1 : \delta^1 \rightarrow X$ is defined as follows $(0,0) \mapsto x$ and $(1,0) \mapsto x$ and then we extend linearly for all other point
for all other points
I think that is it right ?
I don't know what you're doing.
You're allowed to define such a function.
I am trying to calculate homology using its map definition.
I have to leave, sorry. Maybe @Mike will help out?
hey @MikeMiller or @PVAL are you guys here ?
I want to make sure what I am thinking about is correct
hi
does anyone know a way to evaluate fresnel integrals?
$C(x) = \int_{0}^x \cos(t^2)dt =\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \dfrac{(-1)^nx^{4n+1}}{(2n)!(4n+1)}$
i want to evaluate it at $\infty$
02:48
hey @PedroTamaroff maybe you could help me out.
@L33ter What with?
I am trying to calculate the homology group of the torus explicitly instead of pictures.
using the definition.
I hate it that allen hatcher's book doesn't include examples !
Let us take for example the torus and triangulate it as the vertex, edges, faces being x , {a,b,c}, and {U,L}
so $\sigma_1^0 : \Delta^{0} \rightarrow T$ where $[v_0] \mapsto x$
$\sigma_1^1 : \Delta^1 \rightarrow X$ where $(0,0) \mapsto x$ and $(1,0) \mapsto x$
i decided to drink a beer and watch Dr. Strangelove
cause my brain needs to rest
and then extend linearly for $\sigma_1^1$
is that correct?
it seems to me correct geometrically
i think my brain will explode
if I do not rest
02:58
Does anybody have an approachable explanation of differential equations? My textbook (Stewart; Early Transcendentals) just throws undecipherable examples of what they look like at me.
I have looked at a large number of sources, including those on the main site.
What I'm really looking for isn't an explanation of what they are, but how to approach them and why those approaches work. I'm working with ordinary DEs with order 1. I'm using separation of variables.
@usukidoll Both of your proofs are correct. But in the second one you did not show that the limit exists
@L33ter It does include a lot of them!
so how do I show that the limit exists?
@L33ter So, you want to calculate the homology groups of $S^1\times S^1$.
Prove that the right hand limit equals the left hand limit
03:11
There is nothing wrong with pictures, @L33ter.
like graphing?!
They are actually very useful.
ok lost x.x
That is , $\lim_{x\to 0^{+}}g(x)=\lim_{x\to 0^{-}}g(x)$
Yes but I am trying to follow the book and prof would like explicit calculation using just the maps.
03:13
Which maps?
:/ like the left side as x approaches 0 and the right side as x appraoches 0 must equal
You mean giving the torus a $\Delta$-complex structure and blah blah?
Yes.
yeah
exactly I want an example of construction of those maps
03:14
how t_t
Well, the torus is the quotient of the unit square, so you can triangulate that.
yes
I did that
I named the vertices x. The edges a,b,and c.
The faces L and K.
$\sigma_1^1 : \Delta^1 \rightarrow T$ $(0,0) \mapsto x$ and $(1,0) \mapsto x$ and extend linearly
is that correct?
There is only one vertex in the resulting triangulation.
03:15
Show that when it takes negative values it remains the same as when it takes positive values. You might want to substitute x by some variable
yeah, but is the way I am defining this map correct ?
like z
what about multiplicative rules? do I need those
I think it is correct I am following the geometry of my picture.
just want to make sure though
What do you mean by multiplicative rules?
sorry I meant limits of multiplication
03:20
anyone know an explanation for this? math.stackexchange.com/a/1700124/1284
i think that answer deserves more upvotes too
so should I choose z as the variable and do the whole thing again?
Many answers on this site deserve more upvotes.
it is a new answer.
Well, many new answers also deserve more upvotes.
which ones?
03:25
All of mine for instance.
Not z something more like 0+h where h goes to 0 and 0-h where h goes to 0 for right hand and left hand limit respectively
But that is more or less the similar kind of thing
like 0+h approaches 0 and 0-h approaches 0?
As x->0+h so as h approaches 0 x approaches 0 and similarly
if x -> 0-h so as h approaches 0 x approaches 0 too?
03:45
@PVAL maybe you could help me understand this
04:04
I think I know how to do it
what is T. T is just $I \times I / \sim$
So if we define the maps as follows
$\sigma_1^0 : \Delta^0 \rightarrow T$ $[v_0] \mapsto [(0,0,0])$
$\sigma_1^1 : \Delta^1 \rightarrow T$ as $(0,0) \mapsto [(0,0,0)]$ and $(1,0) \mapsto [(1,0,0)] $ etc right ?
and we extend linearly for other valeus
values
05:04
Bit of a soft question coming from a noob... Suppose $h$ is irrational. What can be said of the set of all rational multiples of $h$? Are there any peculiar differences given whether $h$ is algebraic or otherwise?
My question is mainly motivated by the set $\{q\pi\in\mathbb{R}:q\in\mathbb{Q}\}$ and its size and properties compared to the continuum.
05:33
I was told to give an example of a monoid . My example was $\frac{\Bbb{Z}}{2\Bbb{Z}}$ under multiplication of residue classes defined by $\overline{a}\overline{b}= \overline{ab}$
Is it correct?
05:46
Hey guys, I'm going through Clement's theorem on Twin Primes, and at one point he says 2[(-1)(-2)(n-1)!+2]+n is congruent to 2[(n+1)!+2]+n mod(n+2), but I can't see how.
05:59
In a dihedral group is rotation taken clockwise or anticlockwise? Or does it really matter? Because If we take one rotation clockwise it is the same as taking three rotation anticlockwise
fuck, wrong forum
sorry
ROTK!
GGG
GGG
06:53
Let $\phi: \mathbb{C}^{\times} \to \mathbb{R^{\times}}$ be defined by $\phi(x+iy) = x^2+y^2$. Prove that $\phi$ is a homomorphism and describe the kernel and image of $\phi.$

I think $|(x+iy)^2| = |x+iy||x+iy| = x^2+y^2, $ so $\phi$ is a homomorphism. $\text{ker}(\phi) = \left\{x,y \in \mathbb{R}\setminus \left\{0\right\}: x+iy = 1\right\} = \left\{r \in \mathbb{R}\setminus \left\{0\right\}: re^{i\theta} =1 \right\}$? Is this right? And $\text{im}(\phi) = \left\{x+iy: x,y \in \mathbb{R} \setminus\left\{0\right\}\right\}$?
any linear algebra people know about math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700408/… ?
or know who might know?
GGG
GGG
07:29
I think confused my definitions, it should be $\text{ker}(\phi) = \left\{x+iy \in \mathbb{C}: x^2+y^2 = 1\right\} = \left\{z \in \mathbb{C}: |z| = 1\right\}$ which is the unit circle.
08:17
What does the preorder between the monomoprhisms mean? ncatlab.org/nlab/show/subobject
Like what happens if I want to define an ascending chain of subobjects of some object in a category $\mathcal{C}$?
 
5 hours later…
13:14
Is it possible to simplify the set $\left\{[2a]_{10}: a \in \mathbb{Z}_{15}\right\}$ further?
13:31
@DeMoivre what does the subscript $10$ indicate here? ($[x]_{10}\in \mathbb{Z}_{10}$?)
13:44
@barrycarter @TheKindCat $x^2=y^2$ for $x\ne y$ in a group does not imply that there is an element of order two. It also does not imply that $xy^{-1}=yx^{-1}$.
@Semiclassical Yes, that's right.
mmkay. i don't notice anything particularly special about that, though, aside from that set being the same as $2\mathbb{Z}_{10}\cong \mathbb{Z}_5$. (and that doesn't really depend on $a\in\mathbb{Z}_{15}$ aside from $\mathbb{Z}_{15}$ containing $\{0,1,2,3,4,5\})$
@Semiclassical Perhaps I then got something wrong: I was calculating the image of the homomorphism $\phi: \mathbb{Z}_{15} \to \mathbb{Z}_{10}$ defined by $\phi([a]_{15}) = [2a]_{10}$.
probably can't help you, then
what i noticed, i suppose, is that if $b=a+5$ then $[2a]_{10}=[2b]_{10}$
meaning that it's enough to consider $a=0,1,\cdots,4$
and that gives $[0],[2],[4],[6],[8]$ as classes in $\mathbb{Z}_{10}$
so for example one has $\phi([3]_{15})=\phi([8]_{15})=\phi([13]_{15})=[6]_{10}$
I think that does it, cheers.
13:57
mmkay.
what kind've question were you after, btw?
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