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15:02
yeah
@JC574 I am trying to figure out what the hell is degree of isogeny
@L33ter not sure this'll help, but: math.stackexchange.com/q/271602/137524
it doesn't enlighten me, i'll admit
what is function fields ?
is it field of fractions
?
shrug shrug shrug
which again i only know up to "hey, google brought it up"
that last one seems like it might be the most helpful
goood
goodo
last one is very very good
thanks a lot @Semiclassical
I have been googling for 1 hr haha
heh. all i did was google "degree of an isogoney" in quotes
15:15
haha
forcing google to look for the exact phrase is usually a good idea
hello @L33ter
welcome back
thank you
yeah @Semiclassical
hi @mreyeglasses
it hasn't helped me with the question i asked above, alas
@L33ter i had to chat with some noob named Ali while you were gone
15:19
oh
though that's not surprising, given that the nlab entry on 'tensor category' specifically states that the literature isn't always consistent about the precise definition
which is rather annoying
maybe one more question @Semiclassical
sure. keep in mind that i only got that one by google powers :)
section 4.1
they define "if the isogeny is de ned by an irreducible polynomial, we de ne the degree
of an isogeny as the degree of the polynomial. "
defined by irreducible polynomial
why is the frobienius map of degree p ?
after staring at it, i've come to the conclusion that I don't known :/
though it does seem significant that the $p$ in there is the same one as in $\mathbb{F}_p$
maybe play around with the $p=3$ case?
(confession: I don't remember what $\mathbb{F}_p$ is)
15:28
it is just standard Zp
actually, there's an entry on the Frobenius automorphism at Wiki's page on finite fields
which itself links to a page on the Frobenius endomorphism
where is the link ?
I will just use that definition at mathoverflow
it is easier
I need it for presentation I am giving tomorrow
the link to the Frobenius endo can be found in the entry I linked to
I am giving a presentation on elliptic curve cryptography
I wasn't gonna make it super technical at first
15:36
but some guy gave a non-technical one as presentation before me
so now I have to do a technical one
r9m
r9m
15:52
@robjohn It'd be nice to see a generalization of some sort :)
@r9m It would. However, the $(k+1)\to a$ with the change of $-\to+$ does not easily extend to higher powers.
r9m
r9m
@robjohn yes ,, I noticed that!
@robjohn how about restricting the integral to the semi circular arc in the positive real half plane (instead of going full circle) and then collapse it to the imaginary axis $(-i,i)$ (the diameter of the circle)? would that work?
(gotta go get something to eat now .. BBL)
I wonder if I should update my profile to say: "Writer of spaghetti code, asker of unintelligible math questions."
@r9m I think that leaves us with a similar sum
@MatsGranvik but is it tasty spaghetti code?
16:13
hi @robjohn @Mats
hi @TedShifrin
@mreyeglasses!
@robjohn I like my spaghetti code. I started reading Halmos online pdf about "How to write mathematics." Halmos level of mathematics is not what I am aiming for though. The code I put in my questions is for my self to remember what I was experimenting with. The questions I write are to get at least one upvote so that it stays at the top of my profile for a while, and so that I will find it more easiliy the next time I visit the site.
ey ted
heya @EricS
16:16
I have like 200 papers to grade today; any music suggestions?
LOL ... Music to Grade Papers By?
Yakety Sax
@TedShifrin howdy. It is getting hot here these days
Of course — it's summer.
lol excellent
16:18
Morning.
Goodnight @MikeM
hi @TedShifrin
Howdy, Karim
I posted an answer to a question that I misread. I came back hours later to a bunch of downvotes. I fixed my answer, and I think it is the simplest one, but some of the downvotes have persisted. Bleh!
I've pretty much quit answering questions. :)
16:24
My guess is that those downvoters are not coming back to that question.
@TedShifrin Does that mean you're just here for chat?
Sometimes ... It's frustrating. I actually spent over an hour figuring out a differential geometry question (embarrassing — I should have seen the right approach in a second), but never got a response at all from the OP. The good news is that it motivated me to add a new exercise to my diff geo text :P
There are usually just not many interesting or good questions to answer in the tags I frequent.
@robjohn: This was the question, if you're interested.
@MikeM: I even answered a question about explaining division of fractions. I expected some response/upvotes ... basically got nothing.
I think MathSE has been Drumpf-ified already.
You are more inspired than I.
16:29
Well, I'm spending a significant amount of time working with little kids on math now, so I think that's very important stuff. :)
I added the PDE tag to my favorites but all I actually know is the general theory of elliptic PDE so I can't answer anything :)
I've taught some undergraduate PDE stuff, but I have hardly ever answered such questions.
Yeah, there's also the problem that solving the heat equation on a square is possible but just not fun.
@MikeMiller You can't have $F(2)$ or $F(4)$ as a normal subgroup of $F(3)$, even allowing infinite index.
See here; if it has infinite index, then it's not finitely generated (or it's trivial)
Heya, DogAteMy ...
hi chat
@TedShifrin the horror, the horror
@Semiclassic: It's getting real. :(
@MikeM: Have you noticed how peaceful it is with Balarka having vanished?
he's not the only person who seems to have vanished relatively recently
Well, he's the main one who occupied lots of my time.
Jasper has disappeared yet again; so has Chris'ssis, but I had her on ignore, anyhow.
16:44
fair enough
There are a few others, actually.
@Ted: He'll probably be back. I'm getting work done at least.
it was the latter of those i had in mind. not that i minded the problems that came up, but the attitude got a bit exhausting.
A bit?
i suppose i'm being polite :)
16:45
Today's homework: prove the moduli space of flat connections is compact without cheating.
Hmm, I have no clue, @MikeM.
No idea what that means but the "without cheating" bit sounds… odd
on an entirely different point: did i miss an argument about the virtues of using coordinates v. not using coordinates?
lele it wasn't much of an argument, at least the part I saw
@Ted: It comes down to proving an a priori L^2 bound on flat connections in a Coulomb slice (that is, if $A$ is flat, a bound on the norm of 1-forms satisfying $d_A a + a\wedge a = 0$ and $d^*_A a = 0$)
16:47
Oh @MikeM.
I can get as many bootstrapping lemmas as I want but getting an actual bound to start with is proving difficult, though I expect it will end up being something obvious
What's a Coulomb slice? I ask mostly because I associate Coulomb with physics, and wondered what the eytmology is
It wasn't an argument, @Semiclassic, although my parting blow to Mike was that he should eventually learn something about geometry with moving frames.
The cheating proof is to identify it with $\text{Hom}(\pi_1,SU(2))$.
@Semiclassical: It's the second equation of the pair.
16:49
Being in Coulomb gauge is a gauge fixing condition.
I wondered if it was a reference to Coulomb gauge
though I only know that through the physics
In the context of electromagnetism I guess?
It still ends up being the second equation of the two I wrote. This is one of those things where I'm sure there isn't just an analogy, it's just literally the same notion.
yeah. in relativistic electromagnetism, one can formulate everything in terms of a field strength tensor $F^{\mu \nu}$ determined by the 4-potential $A^\mu$ as $F^{\mu \nu}=\partial^\mu A^\nu -\partial^\nu A^\mu$
Hello all
I know the formula for curvature. ;)
16:52
Hey @Semiclassical !!!

Could you give me an exercise that asks to find the area and perimeter of a rhombus?
not right now, sorry
What's with you @TedShifrin ?
Curvature is my friend. Though I guess today it's not.
@TedShifrin Hi
hi @evinda @Mambo
16:53
Hello @TedShifrin
@TedShifrin Do you know how to work with family of semi norms
What do you mean, @Mambo?
anyways, one has gauge freedom for that potential, which one usually fixes by a choice of gauge. for Coulomb gauge, it's that $\partial_i A^i = \nabla\cdot \mathbf{A} = 0$
What does it mean when topology is generated by family of seminorms
You're repeating my field to me. :) Are you working on $\Bbb R^3$? or $\Bbb R^n$?
16:57
It means that you define an open set around $0$ by things like $\|x\|_k<\epsilon_k$ for the various seminorms $\|\cdot\|_k$, right, @Mambo?
@MikeMiller who was that in reply to?
Do you define open sets like that?
Does one take finite seminorms at a point to define bases or any number?
must be a basis
since this is supposed to generalize that $\Bbb R^n$ is generated by $\{|\cdot|_2\}$.
It was you. I'm not sure who else it could have been
@Mambo: Have you actually searched on MSE for this? For example, there's this question.
17:00
oh it's a subbasis o.O
just making sure.
@TedShifrin
electromagnetism is usually formulated on 3+1 spacetime i.e. signature +---
@TedShifrin have you ever heard of the word isogeny before ?
Yes, Karim, it shows up in abelian varieties. But I don't recall details.
17:02
@TedShifrin I am looking at the link. I saw someother.
so stuff like $a_\mu a^\mu = a_0^2-a_1^2-a_2^2-a_3^2$ is typical
anyways. what's not clear to me off the top of my head is what your $a$ would correspond to. as a 1-form, i guess i'd expect it to be the 4-potential $A^\mu$ expressed as a differential form
but then i'm also puzzled at how $a\wedge a$ wouldn't vanish trivially.
@TedShifrin Suppose if there is a map between two topological space each generated by different family of seminorms, how does one characterize the continuity of the map through the seminorms
though maybe i shouldn't be shocked at that given how similar it looks to this...
@Semiclassical: It's a 1-form with values in a Lie algebra, essentially. The wedge product includes the Lie bracket. So for 1-forms it's trivial for any abelian Lie algebra - like that of U(1) - but not necessarily for interesting ones, like mine, the Lie algebra of SU(2)
sounds right. in the thing i linked, it'd be SU(3).
17:07
It would be if it was readable. :)
pfff :P
i don't actually disagree, tbh. i don't do field theory myself.
@TedShifrin are you there?
btw, the case of electromagnetism is with $U(1)$. hence why one sees stuff like $F=dA$ when discussing that case.
heyo
17:14
@MikeMiller Yes, this is definitely the gauge potential $A^\mu$
@Danu What are you studying
@Semiclassical: Yes, I know. The curvature formula (where $A$ is a connection) is $F_{A+a} = F_A + d_A a + a \wedge a$. In your case, you're on the trivial bundle, and you've chosen $A$ to be the trivial connection so that $d_A = d$.
@Danu Sorry Hi
@Mambo Right now, or generally?
And in your case the Lie algebra $i\Bbb R$ is abelian. So it reduces to $F_a = da$.
17:15
@Danu generally
@Danu: Yes, I'm aware :)
yeah, that all sounds consistent.
Physics
With a bunch of math sprinkled here and there
like
still not sure why the Coulomb slice definition parallels the Coulomb gauge condition, though.
17:16
@Semiclassical: Because in $\Bbb R^3$ with the standard metric and $a = \sum a_i dx_i$, $d^*a = \nabla \cdot a$.
That is, it behaves as divergence. It'll be the same in your situation, with some signs moved around.
Do you believe there is value in trying to write/talk in a way that's comprehensible to both physicists & mathematicians in gauge theory, @MikeMiller? Or do you think it's a waste of time/effort?
What's the talk about?
hrm. i'd have thought we were working on $\mathbb{R}^{3+1}$. not that that's necessarily incompatible, but it requires some thinking on my part.
maybe it is once i require that everything be time-independent.
It's inconsequential.
The worst thing that will happen is maybe some signs will get swapped.
There's a conference in Indiana in two weeks that still doesn't have a schedule up...
!!!
You're going to that?
17:20
main point on my part, i guess, is that i'd then identify $a$ not with the 4-potential $A^{\nu}$ but its spatial part $\vec{A}$
@EricStucky: yes
@Semiclassical: Whereof I cannot speak, thereof I must be silent.
I have a top midterm early afternoon on Friday so it'll be an adventure
choosing to be Wittgenstein today, eh
17:21
Are you just at Indiana?
No, I'm in MN
you're at MN? I'm at the UMN
@Semiclassical I guess he (@MikeMiller) is doing electrostatics.
woa
me too
such friends :D
17:22
which field? i'm in the physics department.
nah I'm maths
with my desk in the Physics and Nanotechnology building
But
okay I was going to ask
@Danu: I don't know what that means.
where y'all were hanging out this year XD
17:23
i try and stop by the math talks every so often myself
yeah, we're kind've scattered to the four winds
@MikeMiller Have you seen the vector form of Maxwell's equations?
it was either on a friend of mine's arm or skateboard in undergrad, I forget which was where
most of our faculty are in PAN, but some are in Shepherd and others are in WBOB (which is really far away, ugh)
it might have been the Schroedinger equation he had on his arm.
@MikeMiller Okay...
In any case, they're $\nabla \times E = \partial_t A$, $\nabla \cdot E=\rho$ and two more for magnetic fields
17:24
oh, and some profs in Mcnamara
on the other hand, the front office and all the teaching stuff is in Williamson
labs etc.
so yeah...
I don't really know what the point you're making is?
Oh... I'm getting things a bit mixed up, sorry.
@EricStucky: That's a bit of a distance, Indiana to Minnesota. Did you get funding?
17:25
I guess you're not doing statics so much as vacuum solutions, where $\rho=0$
My impression is that they have infinite money so that's not too surprising I suppose.
I guess with such a tight schedule I should get funding
$\rho$ is the $0$-component of $A^\mu$
I'm still elligible for standby flights
So I was planning on doing that
but
I guess I should send an email :P
what i'd expect, identifying $a=A_i dx_i$
17:27
They already emailed everyone here (grad students) about their funding. You're an undergrad, yes? So maybe they're on a different schedule for you.
I'm not an undergrad
they emailed me, but they said to contact them
I see.
for travel, specifically
I am probably going to stop thinking about translating equations between our languages. I'm not sure what any of the three of us talking about gauge theory gain from it...
is that $d*a=(\nabla\cdot \mathbf{A})dV$ (which does vanish under Coulomb gauge)
17:29
@MikeMiller So you don't see any value in it? ;)
I don't get the winky face. Is that something I say a lot?
I think the incommensurability of the two ways gauge theory are treated by the two communities is problematic
@MikeMiller No, it's just that you didn't really respond when I asked earlier
It's $d^*a$, @Semiclassical, not $d*a$. $d^*a$ is a function.
and $da=(\nabla\times A)_i\,dx_i=B_i\,dx_i$ where $\mathbf{B}$ is the magnetic field
And now I've managed to extract somewhat of an answer in a roundabout way
17:30
@Danu: You didn't give me enough to go on.
I do not agree that there's any incommensurability.
Lol
You yourself admit you can't understand any of the physics papers
what would $d^*a$ be here, then? seems like it coincides with $\star d \star a$ in this case
@Semiclassical: OK, fair point, I agree with you, at least up to changing some signs in the gradient which I'm not thinking about.
eh, that's not really the problem i seee
what's more bothersome to me is that $da=B_i\,dx_i$ vanishing means there's no magnetic fields
which is a heck of an assumption
which i take was your point, @Danu?
I'm confused about what you care about? You're going back to my original question, the PDE I wrote down?
17:33
well, i was trying to understand the motivation behind calling that the Coulomb slice
Coulomb slice !
Sliceeee
$d^*a$ and $da$ are completely different though. The Coulomb condition is that $d^*a$ vanishes.
ugh, looking back i see i misread you
"second equation of the pair."
sigh. now that's derpy on my part.
The first equation is that the curvature (field strength tensor) vanishes. This isn't the normal object of study in Yang-Mills theory, it's the very simplest case.
herpaderp
17:36
@MikeMiller yeah, i was going to say something along those lines. the first sentence, anyways.
Now what I don't like about that is that if I have $F=0$ then... what am I even doing?
Studying the moduli space of flat connections.
well, $F=0$ is boring in electromagnetism
That means nothing is going on (in physics)
Literally nothing happening :p
not sure it's so boring in QCD
17:38
@Danu: You don't think the set of gauge potentials for which nothing is going on is interesting?
"What initial conditons can I have where nothing evolves?"
Well mathematically, sure
I think it's reasonably interesting, since physically it should amount to asking what gauge transformations would preserve the vacuum.
At least in electromagnetism, I think there is little interest from the physical side of things
Is the Laplacian uninteresting because harmonic functions don't change under the heat equation?
@Semiclassical Gauge transformations should preserve everything observable, always
In particular they cannot change zero $E$ and $B$
17:39
One ultimately works modulo gauge transformations.
@MikeMiller That seems a very different question :P
I don't agree.
In electromagnetism, I pretty much care about E and B more than anything else
so if they're both zero I'm wondering what I'm doing :P
the fact that the Laplacian kills harmonic functions is interesting because it tells me how things change between different boundary conditions
@Danu: You asked earlier if there's value in increasing mathematician-physicist dialogue. I think there is. You could ask if there's value in this current back and forth. That's definitely false. So I'm going to go do some actual work.
17:41
OK
@eric Who do you work with at the UMN?
can someone help me with this proof
note: it is not yet complete
i am trying to prove lemma 3
@mike just to check one formal detail: what's the definition of $d^*$?
@Danu: I take the previous thing back, because I realized you were thinking about $U(1)$. Flat $U(1)$ connections are in bijection with $H^1(M;i\Bbb R)$, where $M$ is the manifold you're doing this on; in $\Bbb R^3$ there are none.
Flat $U(1)$ connections on a given bundle, that is.
As SemiC said it's rather interesting for other gauge groups.
17:47
Okay.
My initial response was annoyed about the tone. If you want to have a conversation, you shouldn't just tell me that something is uninteresting from your point of view. That's a good way to end a conversation. You should ask why it's interesting from mine.
And I should do the same to you, of course, which I'm not good at but should make more effort to be.
You're right.
Please call me out if (or rather, when) I do something similar.
this is about as non-Drumpfian of a conclusion as can be. i'm rather happy about that :)
@Semiclassical: $(-1)^{k(n-k)}*d*$, where $*$ is determined by the Riemannian metric, $n$ is the dimension of your manifold, and you're acting on $k$-forms.
17:50
ah. so in particular $d^* a=0$ is equivalent to $*d*a=0$.
Technically, nobody. But Reiner and I are in the courtship phase.
Right.
ah, nice.
Voronov is pretty sweet, but if I really was going to do topology I'd probably try for Westerland
do you have a desk yet?
17:51
@Danu: And sorry for the storming out.
Hehe yeah they're standard issue
Voronov sat for my collaborator's oral exam committee (another grad student)
That doesn't surprise me too much :)
natural question, then: where is your desk? :P
fifth floor, about as close as you can get to the lounge
Vincent Hall
17:52
@MikeMiller Thanks for coming back :-)
nice. i'll see if i can swing by there
who is voronov ?
have you sat in on a lot of the seminars yet? i was there last week for the math-physics one, for example
@Semiclassical: My mathematician's answer to why I need to gauge fix is that I want my equations to be elliptic PDEs. Normally I'm studying the ASD equation $d_A^+ a + (a \wedge a)^+ = 0$, where "$+$" denotes taking the self-dual part of the 2-form (this makes sense on an oriented Riemannian 4-fold). The linearization of this is just called $d_A^+$. (Here you may as well take $A$ to be the trivial connection for discussion.)
and i finally remembered to email the presenter today in the hopes of plugging him on some questions
17:53
:) I did last semester, but the timing this semester is all wrong
ugh, i know how that works
i'd hoped to sit in on a 'philosophy of quantum mechanics' course this semester, for example
it meets twice a week, and i could make it on Fridays
but on mondays i have an overlap with TAing. the hilarious part?
what I'm TAing at that point is a discussion section on Quantum Physics :P
Now this is not an elliptic linear PDE. This is for more or less dumb reasons: Take a solution. Any gauge transformation of that solution is still a solution. This means (because there are a lot of gauge transformations) that I must have an infinite-dimensional space of solutions, and elliptic PDEs have a finite-dimensional space of solutions. At least to me, that's one of their most essential properties.
XD
almost all of our TA sections are TR, MWF are for 'real lectures'
Well, how do I at least attempt to fix this? I should try and pick some "slice" of the space of connections that's more or less "orthogonal" to the action of the gauge group. I mean this more or less literally: at the base connection $A$, I can linearize the action of the gauge group to get a subset of $\Omega^1(\mathfrak g_P)$ (again, think of this as 1-forms with values in $\mathfrak{su}(2)$)
@MikeMiller gauge-fixing is a big deal for physicists too. one big example being in path integrals e.g. here
17:56
No, I know! I'm just saying why a mathematician would want to do it.
oh sure. i'm just wondering to myself how related the two things are. i wouldn't be surprised if they are.
The subspace you get as the "linerization" of the gauge group action is the image of $d: \Omega^0(\mathfrak g_P) \to \Omega^1(\mathfrak g_P)$. And up to a finite-dimensional subspace, this is perpendicular to the kernel of $d^*$.
mostly because what you're describing sounds reminiscient of Fadeev-Popov stuff (though it's been so long that i can't be sure i'm speaking sensibly)
@Semiclassical: They're exactly the same notion. You're trying to restrict to a set of fields (?) that you can't gauge transform, at least not very much. That's exactly what I'm doing.
17:59
So I restrict to the kernel of $d_A^*$. Now the key point is that $d_A^* \oplus d_A^+: \Omega^1 \to \Omega^0 \oplus \Omega^2$ - this is a linear elliptic operator.
more generally i about the relation between the elliptic PDE perspective and the path integral perspective. i doubt they're disconnected notions.
That, I can say very little about.

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