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14:02
Curious. The guy who served my bagel today, the receipt said his name is Hilbert. :-)
@Srivatsan It has more votes than my highest (only) question. :-)
@Srivatsan Does he live in a hotel?
@robjohn I will ask him the next time.
I'm sure he will give me a dirty look.
@Srivatsan Just print out the Wikipedia article and give it to him :-)
He may still give you a dirty look, but you'll just look nerdy and not stalker-like.
Re math.stackexchange.com/a/93406/13425, If you are going to hide everything with a big-O, why bother with such methods? Why not bound each term by $\log k$ and be happy? (Just like the second answer does...)
14:18
@Srivatsan others would kill it using Stirling :)
@Srivatsan the end result hides the method, but bounding each term by the biggest, might overestimate the sum. Of course, once you know that the term is $O(k\log(k))$ the other proof looks sufficient.
@robjohn I'm not saying the method is without value. But if you're using a stronger method and that would yield a stronger bound, it makes sense to note that in the answer, no?
@Srivatsan I guess using the Riemann sums is a natural reflex. You might not even think of the other trick if you're not doing these things on a regular basis.
@Srivatsan I would think the argument bounding all the terms with the largest is the one that needs a comment saying that there isn't a better bound.
@robjohn There isn't a better bound in terms of big-O?
14:24
hello folks
@Srivatsan For example, consider the sum of $2^k$. If we bound all the terms by $2^n$, we get $n2^n$ rather than the better bound $2^{n+1}$.
@Srivatsan who's to say that doesn't happen with $\log(k)$ until it is computed?
@tb I see. I guess I happen to have spent time with some of these things some time in the past...
@robjohn The simple method in the second answer also gives you a lower bound that is just a constant factor off.
Does that answer your question, robjohn?
@Srivatsan okay, I was simply talking about the main argument. I hadn't included the additional proof of the lower bound.
@robjohn OK.
Now we can all say "Hi Rajesh!"
14:29
@Srivatsan I assume that is why the update was added.
Hi! Ho! @Rajesh
gotta wok the dog, er walk the dog. bbl
@robjohn No, the update was because Elvis Jagger misunderstood that the lower bound needs Jensen: it does not.
@Srivatsan Ah, okay.
Hi Rajesh
@rob : how many times do you walk the dog in a day
hi @Sri
@RajeshD twice
14:31
In Soviet Russia, the dog walks you.
??
why
@RajeshD people are wimps there :-D
@RajeshD they might try to convince you that the dogs are bigger, however.
wimp : A subatomic particle that has a large mass and interacts with other matter primarily through gravitation ??
QED
QED
lol
@RajeshD That's precisely what I meant. :-p
14:33
funny....i've never heard anything abouts russians
so i am totally unaware
that definition wasn't mine...from net
@RajeshD You might want to read this. Or search in wikipedia; I just prefer this.
@RajeshD In the stereotypical image, Russians are like Texans in that they like to exaggerate about the importance or size of things from their homeland.
BTW : @rob just FYI : I have a strong dislike towards pet animals...i do not know why
14:37
@QED Ah, I missed the Smirnoff reference.
ok
i got it now
@RajeshD we have always had pets. Sorry you feel that way.
@robjohn I just knew it as a Russian reversal. I did not know who this Smirnoff is.
QED
QED
You dislike the animals or the having pets?
@robjohn A lot of them, I suppose. =)
14:38
no problem, its just i am like that...we never even dared to think of it
both
@ QED
@Srivatsan we have had 3-5 at most times.
QED
QED
hmm
I really have to go. The dog is about to walk me.
VVV
VVV
hi
QED
QED
Hello
lol @robjohn
14:40
hahhaha...bye good time walking the dog
Hi QED, VVV
VVV
VVV
hi srivatasan
srivatsan
bye
Cute. I'm tempted to write that Bill's answer is cryptic to me too. But then that would be spiteful.
Glad I undeleted my answer : )
@Matt Why spiteful?
Is there a history that I'm missing?
@Srivatsan Because bashing others is not nice. You're not missing anything.
14:50
@Matt you might ask him politely what reference [1] is :)
@tb lol =)
@tb Thanks, I was so bamboozled by his writs that I missed that. I think I'll do exactly that.
I wonder about this "past names" thing in the profile...
@JM That doesn't look too torus-ish...
@Srivatsan Nope. My experiments on Christmas tori didn't go as I hoped they would, so I got lazy and used Barnsley instead.
14:58
@JM It counts how many times you've changed your name.
I know it does; I'm wondering why they have to monitor that...
@JM You know, it's more difficult to look you up now =)
@Srivatsan What do you mean?
@JM They might be introducing a chameleon badge
@JM Did you know you have written exactly 555 answers till now?
15:01
@Srivatsan I have? Let me check...
Indeed. Hmm...
I don't know why they want to show it on the profile but they keep track of it to implement their policy of a name change only possible every 30 days.
@JM Oh nothing important. Your torus stood out nicely from the others. The new thing is harder to look for in the user page.
Well, I'll return to tori when I see something I like. :)
"homological" as a tag? Homological something sounds sort of incomplete.
@Matt How about "homological-stuff"? =)
15:05
: )
I thought I'd seen this exact same question today. Is my memory playing a trick on me? I can't seem to find its duplicate.
I wonder if Arthur from Belgium is really from Belgium.
Nooo. I stewed my coffee T_T
I don't like it very much if someoone does not acknowledge a mistake or a overlook on their part, however trivial it might be.
@Srivatsan ?
@Srivatsan Which particular example are you talking about?
15:11
@JM Well, it was a response to something. That something has been changed to a comment about coffee now. =)
This question seems to boil down to, does angle trisection allow you to solve arbitrary cubic equations?
@ZhenLin Yes it does.
@JM Ah? I've never seen a proof though...
@Matt It was about the ring theory question.
@Matt Do you mean this?
15:14
@ZhenLin Seen this?
@tb No, I don't think so. I thought I had seen the exact same title.
@Srivatsan It's not clear that he's wrong though.
Well, ok.
@JM Ick, that looks complicated. I'd be happy with a proof of the fact that cubic equations can be solved by angle trisection. :p
Good lord, the efficient nesting of theorems question has sure accumulated a lot of votes. :-) I hadn't noticed it getting to the twenties...
@Srivatsan I still don't like it...
15:18
@ZhenLin As mentioned in that paper, the cubic has to have all its roots real (casus irreducibilis) for trisection to apply. You can't duplicate the cube with an angle trisector, for instance.
@tb I hate it. I think (and I had stated so before in chat) that it's NARQ.
@JM But that implies $\sqrt[3]{2}$ is not constructible... so how do you solve cubic equations in that case?
@ZhenLin You need a different tool to duplicate cubes.
But no, I still don't see how to solve cubics if arbitrary cube roots cannot be extracted...
I think I should answer algebra questions more often. It's magic. Two more of these and I'll cap for the first time.
15:24
@Matt, I wanted to ask you: what happened to the borderline-duplicate question you wanted to post?
I have a question on Nash embedding theorems
@ZhenLin The problem is that the other two roots of $x^3-2$ aren't real, so it doesn't fit the assumptions.
Quick question: Reading Wikipedia tells me that primary ideal is not principle ideal. So this is not a duplicate. Am I confused?
@JM Yes, but how is that so different from solving a cubic which has only real roots?
15:27
@Srivatsan I'm trying to remember which of the questions I wanted to work through it was. Gimme a minute.
@ZhenLin You remember the trigonometric solutions to the cubic, right?
@JM No, I'm afraid not... I only ever saw the general solution.
Were the results of Nash embedding theorems been conjectured by anyone before he came up with ?
@Matt Sorry I couldn't be more specific. If I dig through the chat maybe I can find the original myself...
@ZhenLin This one.
15:28
@Matt: your answer was good. Bill D seems to like to downplay others' answers and push his own as more general or more understandable. It happened to me a lot on sci.math.
@Srivatsan I'm just trying to remember a key word to search for. I vaguely remember our conversation.
guys, can the category have a finite number of objects?
@Ilya consider a group: a category with one object and all morphisms are isomorphisms
e.g. a category with the unique object together with the identity morphism
@JM Huh, interesting. I'll have to see how that works myself sometime!
15:30
@robjohn Thanks. I was so unsure about it that I deleted it right after hitting the post button. Then I thought, never mind: if it's wrong, I'll learn something and I can still delete it : )
@ZhenLin Note that the compass takes care of the square roots. :) Thus, casus irreducibilis is entirely covered.
@tb sorry, in which sense should I consider a group? should it be any particular group?
Were the results of Nash embedding theorems been conjectured by anyone before he came up with ? @all sorry for reposting... i thought you have missed it
@Ilya: Any group can be considered as a one-object category.
@robjohn Can I badger you again about the uniform continuity thing from earlier today?
15:31
@Matt okay
@Srivatsan Thanks! Yes, I didn't post it again. I just asked the questions I had here in chat : )
@Matt :]
@ZhenLin oh, you mean that for $G$ being a group we can consider a category $\mathscr G$ such that $\mathrm{Ob}(\mathscr G) = \{G\}$ and $f\in\mathrm{Hom}_\mathscr G(G,G)$ if and only if $f:G\to G$ is an isomorphism, don't you?
@Srivatsan What does ":]" mean, as opposed to ":)"?
15:33
@RajeshD People were unsure. Nash gives a history of the developments at the beginning of his article
@Matt They are all the same to me. [If you find out that they are different, do tell me =)]
@Ilya: No. We consider a category with one object $*$ and $\textrm{Hom}(*, *) = G$.
@robjohn Nice, thanks. I think I don't understand why I need the Lebesgue number lemma. If I have a finite subcover consisting of balls of radii $\delta_1, \dots , \delta_n$ around points $x_1, \dots , x_n$ and I then choose the smallest of these $\delta_i$ and call it $\delta$ then surely $B(x_i, \delta) \subset B(x_i, \delta_i)$.
@ZhenLin didn't get it, sorry. I've just started to read about categories and need some time to digest new info. E.g. I know that $*$ is a terminal object and one example can be a singleton in $\mathrm{Set}$ but that's it
@Matt, an algebra question just came up: math.stackexchange.com/questions/93488. =)
15:39
@Ilya: If you really must have it in concrete terms, think of it as a certain subcategory of Set.
@Srivatsan Thanks : )
@Ilya: Don't get confused by the symbols. $*$ is just a symbol.
@Matt It looks easy, so quick. I have a feeling the first post will get a crazy number of votes. =)
Yes, I guess he means that, yes.
@ZhenLin ah, you mean $\mathrm{Hom}(,) = G$ where $G$ is a group (as a set) together with a group operation?
Yes.
15:42
sorry for pinging, weird rendering of my message
@ZhenLin but then we require that any morphism has an inverse. Could we consider instead $G$ being a monoid?
@Ilya: Sure. A monoid is the same thing as a category with one object.
@ZhenLin well, that's now more clear, thanks. Is it true that for any two objects $A,B$ $\mathrm{Hom}(A,B)$ is monoid?
where $A,B$ are just objects of some (the same) category
thanks @tb
@Ilya: If $A = B$, of course.
@Matt May I know what question you're talking about?
15:46
@ZhenLin indeed, if $A\neq B$ then the composition is undefined. Could I ask you one more question?
Yes, go ahead.
@Matt Tell me how you choose a distance between two points so that the function is close at those two points?
@Zhen what is the motivation (or the sense) of considering opposite categories? Maybe I should tell you that I'm reading PhD thesis of one student where he uses category theory a lot - and he gives quite comprehensive but very brief description of CT
@Ilya: Some interesting concrete categories turn out to be opposites, but otherwise it's an abstraction to let us treat covariant and contravariant functors on the same footing.
I don't think I'll have time at the current moment to read about this in a book (where would be more examples and more motivation I suppose) so I'm trying to break through the material he gave.
15:50
@Srivatsan This one.
@ZhenLin will the question "why do we need contravariant functors" lead us to nowhere? :-)
@Ilya: There are lots and lots of contravariant functors. The most basic one is the power set functor...
he puts this as an example of a covariant functor
There are two; the contravariant one is more interesting. :p
omg, maybe I should just check out some good book on this topic
15:53
Actually, even more basic than the power set functor is the contravariant representable functor...
I have a feeling that we're going to have a lot of algebra questions today.
@ZhenLin I guess, this is one of the sentences non-mathematicians associate to mathematicians: even more basic then [complicated maths] is [very complicated math]
@JM how often does the site scan for new gravatars?
@Zhen: unfortunately, I don't know what is contravariant representable functor, so I'm about to give up and borrow the book. CT seems to be something to make things more comfortable and it does not work for me now (maybe I have a lack of particular examples). As a main reference this student advises Mac Lane's book 'Categories for working mathematicians'. Have you heard about it?
@JM: you have changed gravatars more than anyone else I know, so I ask you :-)
15:59
@Ilya: It's the standard reference, but I don't recommend it.
@ZhenLin may I ask, why and what would you recommend then?
@Dylan We seem to posting answers together more commonly lately =)
i have a quick question in basic physics..but its a little math involved....just hoping that i might get some help @all
@Srivatsan I've noticed that.
@Ilya Well, it's very terse, and probably not very accessible unless you have sufficient background in algebra and/or algebraic topology.
16:01
@robjohn I thought that if the distance between two points was less than $\delta$ then the function values at those points were less than $\varepsilon$.
@DylanMoreland I posted another answer to the "little Eule" question.
@Matt no, from the definition of the balls, you only know that $|f(y)-f(\text{center})|<\epsilon$ for $y$ in the ball.
@Srivatsan Ah, good. I had just added a short remark about the cyclicity of $\mathbf F_p^*$. I'm glad that's fleshed out now.
@Matt then you are left with how to justify that both points are in the same ball.
@Ilya There are gentler introductions. I learned category theory from Awodey the first time round.
16:04
@Matt remember what you are trying to show.
@robjohn The new gravatars take into effect about three minutes after updating, I've found.
@JM Ah, there :-)
@Dylan, there's a small typo in your answer (in the little Fermat statement).
@JM: if you are not going to use the candy cane torus, I will :-)
@robjohn Please use it. :)
16:07
I am. It has already updated on the site.
@Srivatsan Actually that's somewhat major.
...and it's beautiful, rob. :)
Yikes. I need to make some coffee.
@JM In addition to delicious-looking.
@Srivatsan I am quite tasty :-p
16:08
(I took long to respond since I was coding up the picture for the Plemelj construction of the regular heptagon in Mathematica.)
@robjohn I actually don't know how a candy cane tastes like. I only imagine a taste... It's kind of weird
@Srivatsan Yeah I don't think that's salvageable.
@JM I am thinking of how to make the candy cane into a rectangular shape.
@Srivatsan you've never had a candy cane?
@ZhenLin ok, 300p is not so much. I know, it's weird to count the pages in the book - but I have some time restrictions. Language seems to be very good, so thanks a lot for the reference, Zhen
@DylanMoreland I see. I noticed the problem, but thought it could be made to work.
16:10
@Srivatsan The one's I've had are minty. I'm sure there are other flavors, though.
@robjohn No. :)
@JM usually peppermint flavored.
@robjohn I'd use a twisted cylinder and a half-torus.
@Srivatsan It just seems verrry hopeful that the thing would be a cube root of some power of itself. That doesn't seem to be implied by the cyclicity or anything.
@JM I was going to use quarter tori for the corners, but how to map the stripes is what is bothering me.
16:12
@robjohn I've always used a construction similar to the one for the Möbius strip for twists.
@DylanMoreland Let's find out. The only thing we know is $a^{p} = a$ or $a^{p+1} = a^2$. So $a^{(p+1)/3} = a^{2/3} = a / a^{1/3}$, so you can write $a^{1/3}$ as $a^{(2-p)/3}$, right?
With some of the tori I did, what I essentially performed was to replace the line segment being twisted in the strip with a circle.
@JM lining them up at the crossover is non-trivial.
@robjohn Ah, matching up different twisted surfaces is tricky indeed, I agree. :)
@Srivatsan Ah wait of course it's implied. Subgroups of cyclic groups are cyclic. $3$ is still coprime to the order of $\langle a\rangle$.
16:14
@JM I know how to do the tori and I know how to do the cylinders, but the joins will take some thinking.
The other possibility is to just construct a piecewise curve and then twist your cross-sections over that.
@DylanMoreland I don't think you read my previous comment. =)
I am reading it now. The fractions make me nervous but I trust that it's correct. I just need a moment.
(parametrizing properly becomes your replacement problem, however)
@DylanMoreland Ok, let's go fraction-free. $a^{2-p} = a$, so $a^{(2-p)/3}$ is a cube-root of $a$.
That's pretty much the content of my earlier comment. The only thing is $a^{2-p}$ might seem a bit magical, although it's not if you think about it a bit...
16:20
No, I believe it works. I'd organize it as "I have a cube root $b$ for $a^2$, so take $a/b$."
@DylanMoreland hey, I said this one as well. =)
I see now. Yes.
VVV
VVV
¨hi
Hi VVV
VVV
VVV
hi srivtsana
srivatsan
16:30
I typically pride myself on making sure that I've nailed something down before asserting it here, and twice this week I've had to be saved from myself.
Is my name that hard to copy-paste? =)
VVV
VVV
i will call you S from now
@VVV No problem. I was just kidding. Many of my earlier teachers had got it quite wrong.
@Srivatsan: Is your name related to Ramanujan's?
Sri would be a good choice to avoid any confusion with the math notation using 'S'
16:31
@ZhenLin You mean "Srinivasa(n)"?
Yes.
I like writing "Sri". It's a beautiful piece of Sanskrit.
@robjohn I think it's dawning on me. Thanks for your patience, I appreciate this!
@Srivatsan ...and I've seen the truncation "Srinivas" as well...
@JM Sri is added in front of names as a respect in India in formal place
16:33
I might decide to write up this proof and post it as a question just to double-double check.
@Matt feel free to keep asking if you're confused.
@RajeshD Interesting. :)
like Sri JM instead of Mr. JM ? if you need more respect then Sri Sri Sri JM !
@ZhenLin Well, they mean different things actually. Both are Sanskrit, I believe.
VVV
VVV
Is here anybody who knows algebra????
16:35
@robjohn Who are you? And and what did you do to the mean square???
@tb :D He wanted LifeSavers... :D
@VVV Sure, if you have a question just ask, we'll try to answer.
@JM : D
@DylanMoreland Well, if it makes you feel better, I also made some mistake in my answer. Not the crucial kind though.
VVV
VVV
3
Q: Showing a degree formula $\dim_{\mathbb{C}} R^{2} / L$

VVV If $a,b,c,d$ are in $R=\mathbb{C}[t]$ and $ad-bc \ne 0$, $L= R(a,b)+R(c,d)$ in $R^{2}$. I want to show that $\dim_{\mathbb{C}}R^{2}/L = \deg(ad-bc)$. In a previous theorem it was shown that : $\dim_{\mathbb{C}}R /tR = \deg(t)$. So I think of : $\dim_{\mathbb{C}}R^{2}/tR$ and I believe this ...

@tb :-) I took on a holiday avatar. I am working on a square candy-cane...
16:37
@Srivatsan: Ah. I thought it might have been Tamil, actually...
@tb Please disable your chat user script.
What's a "chat user script"?
@balpha Ah that's where the parsererrors came from, just a sec.
@Matt Some users wrote a browser extension to add some stuff to chat. That thing is currently broken, it makes broken and unwanted requests to the server on behalf of the user who has installed it.
@tb yep, that's it
@ZhenLin No, it's originally from Sanskrit. [Actually, this is also the name of a god, hence it's natural it came from Sanskrit.]
16:39
@balpha okay, done.
Sorry for the trouble!
@rob the side bar shows mean square gravatar but in chat window it is different ?
(I'm not suggesting it does this maliciously, it's just a bug; but still...)
@tb no problem, you're not the only one I'm telling this today :)
@RajeshD Refresh your tab, and try again.
@balpha Nice. Now we just need enough people who have installed it then we can bring down SO... (just joking of course)
@Zhen Plus, native Tamil does not have the consonant "sr".
16:41
@Matt even if you could break down chat, that wouldn't impact SO :)
@balpha Oh, it's just for chat, is it? Oh well. : )
oh, there are also tons of user scripts for SO
but those haven't broken yet, because I haven't upgraded the jQuery version on the main sites yet :)
@balpha : )
@RajeshD you may need to refresh your windows to get the same gravatar everywhere. Your browser may cache the old gravatar for a while.
@balpha I think the snowman is awesome, btw.
16:43
@Matt oh, yes!
it certainly gets more attention that last year's christmas goodie
Will this snowperson go away after christmas?
which admittedly was more subtle
@Zhen: are you here?
yes got it...seems like a very recent update (gravatar)
16:43
@balpha Will we get a bunny around Easter?
@Matt That would be cool. =)
@balpha Does that mean I should disable the user scripts for main as well? I'll die when hitting enter submits a comment!
@Matt A circular bunny? Hmm... :)
@tb Just hold down shift.
The mean torus or the sweet torus ?
@rob
16:44
@ilya Yes
@Matt I know, but I'm as old and rigid as former mods here...
@Matt That's one finger not free for other purposes... ;)
@tb Well, I guess that kinda sounds like a supported user script, since we posted it, so I'll try to make sure it works
@JM Such as picking your nose, or what? Gross : )
@RajeshD does it have to be one or the other?
16:46
@balpha Thanks, pheew
Sweet torus. He was very un-mean and helped me patiently all day.
no those were just my guessess.........they are intuitive
@Zhen: Awodey considers the category of finite sets with arrows being rectangular matrices [quote starts] $F = (n_{ij})_{i,j\in\mathbb N}$ where $i=|A|$ and $j = |B|$ [quote ends]
@Matt there was a mean torus?
I think I did a torus with teeth once...
16:48
@Ilya: That's a fun category. It really gets you to abandon the idea that categories are about objects and maps.
could he mean that $F = (n_{kl})_{k=1,l=1}^{i,j}$? I am not sure if I understand his notation
yes i did not observe you changed it @JM
@ZhenLin yeah, I've just realized it, even $\mathrm{Rel}$ was more clear :D
@Ilya: No, he just means a $|{A}| \times |{B}|$ matrix.
now its fern leaf i guess
16:49
@ZhenLin that's what I wrote in my previous post ) entries are any natural numbers, aren't they?
@RajeshD Yes, Michael Barnsley's.
@Ilya: No, they can be from any field $k$ you like. Or commutative ring $R$.
@Matt So you got both arguments now?
@tb I was actually only thinking about the one that completes my proof. I ignored the other for now.
@ZhenLin sorry, haven't written that he requires $n_{ij}$ to be natural. anyway, the point is that they are arbitrary. thanks
16:51
@JM Don't get me wrong, but images of fractals are cliché, no?
:)
@Ilya: Yes. We want $\textrm{Hom}(A, B)$ to be the set of $|{A}| \times |{B}|$ matrices.
@ZhenLin ok, now it's clear, thank you
@Matt I see. Although I think the other was closer to your intentions and actually neater :)
@Srivatsan Like I said, I got lazy after trying so many tori. I burned out on geometric transformations... :)
@Matt Matt, so you're proving that continuous maps over a compact space is uniformly continuous, no?
16:52
@Srivatsan Yes.
@JM Well, I said that only because I think you're better than this =)
@Srivatsan Well, I might switch to one of my monsters next month or so...
Um, it'll be funny if it's actually a rendering of a monster (rather than monster used as a metaphor). =)
@Matt You got two arguments for it now? One of them is described in this comment of yours: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/36?m=2796712#2796712. What's the second approach?
They look a bit chaotic, so they count I guess... :)
@Srivatsan "Snowperson"? Seriously? Are we overdoing it a bit with political correctness? : D
16:57
@Matt I'm not overdoing. =)
@Matt I'll stick to "snowdude", thank you. :)
@Matt zie is?
@Srivatsan For any two points x,y with distance less than delta you need to argue that they lie inside the same delta_i ball of the finite subcover. For that you can either use the Lebegue number lemma or then take half of the delta then they also lie inside the same ball.
@Srivatsan see robjohn's comments starting here

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