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16:00
Now there are spaces called symmetric spaces that can roughly have whatever holonomy you like. They're also completely classified, so from the perspective of holonomy, maybe not so interesting.
So, question. I'm on a simply connected manifold, that's not locally a symmetric space, and such that the holonomy is not reducible. What can the holonomy be?
We already know it can be $O(n)$ and $SO(n)$.
Right, depending on orientability
It can also be the unitary group $U(n) \subset SO(2n)$. This happens for the so-called Kahler manifolds; complex manifolds equipped with a "compatible" Riemannian metric.
(Given a metric $g$, the existence of a complex structure compatible with the metric is equivalent to having holonomy contained in $U(n)$.)
Hm, okay
Never heard of Kahler manifolds before.
16:06
There's $SU(n)$. These are the so-called Calabi-Yau manifolds. You might think of them as being complex manifolds that are "complex orientable"; given a Kahler manifold, you can modify the metric so that it has holonomy $SU(n)$ but is still compatible with the complex structure iff the first Chern class $c_1=0$.
(Roughly, if its Ricci curvature vanishes in de Rham cohomology, then you can change the metric to make the Ricci curvature vanish identically. This is the so-called Calabi conjecture, proved by Yau, hence the name Calabi-Yau manifold.)
Pardon, but what do you mean by "Ricci curvature vanishes in the de Rham cohomology"?
you use the complex structure to turn the ricci tensor into a 2-form
Fair enough
@JoshuaA As Tobias said, that's an unusual intro to alg varieties, because historically the study of zero locus of polynomials came waaaaa... (20 million a's) ... aay before even the word "sheaf" was spelled in math.
Next on the list is $\text{Sp}(n) \cdot \text{Sp}(1)$. This is a structure on $4n$-manifolds. (I never quite got what that gorup is supposed to be. The cdot isn't a literal product.) It corresponds to "quaternionic Kahler manifolds".
16:12
Yikes, ok
Then $\text{Sp}(n)$; these are known as hyperkahler manifolds. They stand to quaternionic Kahler manifolds as Calabi-Yaus stand to Kahler manifolds. These are popular but maybe a bit hard. Actually (other than slight deformations of the metric), there's only two of these known in most dimensions $4n>4$.
I think recently we now have new examples of them in dimensions 12 and 20 but that's it.
Popular despite us not having like any examples.
OK, so now I've given you two manifolds with "real structures" - one $O(n)$, the other $SO(n)$. Similarly, I've given you two kinds of holonomy that talks about a complex structure and two about a quaternionic structure, one "orientable", one not.
Heh, that's whack
What's next?
I don't know, but this discussion has already given me a burst of motivation for studying the topics from my course, which can be rather dull sometimes
@iwriteonbananas: "Reals, complex, quaternions..." There's one more on the list, right?
16:18
Octonions
Aye, and those are the last two possible kinds of holonomy. Can you predict the dimension these structures are possible in?
Well, it often seems like everything breaks down for octionions...e.g. associativity of multiplication
Ah, I was hoping you were going to say 8n-dimensions, since previously we've had 1,2,4.
1) $\text{Spin}(7)$. This can happen on 8-manifolds. 2) $G_2$. This can happen on 7-manifolds.
What's $G_2$?
Just some group.
16:22
Ok, sure
Pretty funny, though. O(n). SO(n). U(n). SU(n). Sp(n) * Sp(1). Sp(n). And then, uh, Spin(7) and G_2.
So these things are mysterious but interesting geometries. We have examples of compact maniolds with this kind of holonomy due to Joyce. But so far only finitely many smooth manifolds up to diffeo are known to support a G_2 structure.
It doesn't help that we have very few tools to tell G_2-manifolds apart. There is a program, due to Donaldson (actually he writes a new paper every 10 years saying "hey guys could you just do this thing now?"), to do gauge theory (like the 4-manifold theory that helps you tell apart smooth structures) on G_2-manifolds, which should help us tell their deformation types apart.
This is still in the stages where people are doing the requisite analysis. No actual invariants have been defined. But it's a cool, hot topic.
The same sort of invariants tie in with Spin(7) manifolds and SU(3)-manifolds.
@MikeMiller Haha. It sounds fun.
I'll be excited to watch the development. It's something I'd like to get into at some point but I have other stuff to do for now.
16:27
@Semiclassical It's an advanced integral, one requires some knowledge above the average line. :-)
So, to conclude, manifolds with special holonomy (not O(n), SO(n), or U(n) ) are cool, and strange, geometries. Some of my favorites.
I guess probably my favorite geometries are those, the geometry of foliations, and the geometry of Engel structures (which doesn't really exist yet).
I hope my course will do more on the topic now.
Probably not on special holonomy groups, but there's a good chance you'll learn some stuff about holonomy in the broad. I'd be glad to suggest references when your course finishes.
While you are discussing about those interesting topics I know nothing about, may I ask a simple question?
You're always free to ask something, whether or not people are talking. Indeed, better to ask than to ask to ask.
16:31
Cool, there's a continuation of this course in the following semester, perhaps I can learn more about holonomy there.
I need some quick help on lattices' downsets. How do I find the set of downsets?
Oh, I have no idea what that means.
@iwriteonbananas Do they have syllabi?
I don't know what a down set is.
We call them downsets, I think it's the opposite of this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_set
16:34
@Semiclassical by average line I meant that material above the stuff one usually attends in uni. It's more part of the research area.
Ok. What do you mean by how to find them? What sort of answer are you looking for?
@MikeMiller Not yet, unfortunately. The course is called "Global Differential Geometry".
So the set of downset forms a lattice itself, right? The question is how to build it? I haven't found any examples around
@iwriteonbananas: No idea what that entails. Maybe symplectic geometry.
16:37
@Semiclassical very specialized advanced research.
Huy
Huy
@MikeMiller: ELI5 Symplectic Geometry
I'll find out soon
@Huy: Nah.
Huy
Huy
=(
@n1xx1: As a simple example, fake the set of all elements less than or equal to a given element.
In general you'll get all of these by picking some set of elements and taking the set of all elements less than or equal to those.
16:39
@BalarkaSen Still wanna know why homological orientation is equivalent to the other orientation definition?
The upper set page looks like it has examples.
In the image I linked on the second row of the "set of downsets" there is {a,b,c,d}, but it isn't a downset, and that's confusing me
How is that not a down set?
like, d is not <= b, is it?
oh wait, I think I'm misunderstanding the definition of downset
ahhhhhhhhhhh ok
I got it now
thank you
I don't know that I did anything, but sure :)
16:51
@RandomVariable do you know how to calculate this kind of integral?
17:03
Good night, @MikeM. Hi, bananas :)
Morning.
@I'manartist Not really. Perhaps a change of variables would be helpful. Those are exponential integrals, right?
@RandomVariable Yes. I was more curious to know if you met anything similar before.
@I'manartist I haven't.
@RandomVariable OK
BBL (trying to finish a proposed problem to a magazine)
17:12
@TedShifrin TED!
Ah, there he is.
I'm cooking.
Anything good? :)
Kidney beans and rice. Lots of it. It'll be my dinner for the next week.
Hmm, less than scintillating :P
17:14
Your vocabulary is truly impressive, Ted
Oh hush ... :) back to math !
Putting that one on my list. scintillating.
Huy
Huy
@TedShifrin: what do if one has no idea what to write their thesis about
Talk to your adviser, @Huy, and ask for suggestions?
Huy
Huy
@TedShifrin: does every student have an adviser assigned to them in the US?
17:17
Well, yes, @Huy. The generic academic adviser is usually replaced by the thesis adviser once the student and the latter agree.
Huy
Huy
I see
we don't have that
usually students are expected to pick a professor and if he/she is willing to supervise the thesis, they discuss topic etc.
the two professors of my choice aren't available next semester, so I'm kind of empty-handed
Hmm ... not available next semester?
Huy
Huy
our semester starts mid-February again
that's what I mean by next semester
But why are they not available?
@Huy: I can find a thesis project for you.
Huy
Huy
17:21
one of them has three PhD students finishing their thesis', so he said he won't have time. the other one is in the US until fall.
Ah ...
@iwriteonbananas I do.
Hi @TedShifrin
Hi @Balarka
Huy
Huy
@MikeMiller I don't think that would work out very well.
17:25
hi @PVAL
hi @TedShifrin
@Huy: I'm hurt!
But you're used to that, @MikeM.
Yes, a student refuses my supervision every few weeks.
No, used to being hurt.
17:29
Reasons include "who are you" and "please leave me alone".
2
@BalarkaSen Ok, I gotta go in 5 min but I'll sketch the idea for getting a homological orientation from an "ordinary" one.
An orientation on $M$ is an oriented atlas, i.e. coordinate changes have positive jacobian determinant, agreed?
Cool, ok.
Yes.
Start with an oriented atlas. Now we want to define a pointwise (homological) orientation.
Fix $x\in M$ and choose an oriented chart $h:B\subset M\to \Bbb R^n$ around $x$.
Well, we get a map of pairs of spaces $h^{-1}:(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)\to \Bbb (B, B-x)$
Go on.
(I'm assuming $x$ gets mapped to $0$, which is possible without loss of generality)
What do we do now with that map?
Well, look at the induced map on homology
17:36
Right.
$(h^{-1})_*:H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)\to H_n(B,B-x)\cong H_n(M,M-x)$
the iso is due to excision
Now, fix a generator of $H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)$, once and for all.
Yeah, sure. So an orientation chart gives me a local orientation, right?
choose local orientation in $x$ the image of the chosen generator under that map above
17:37
But the issue is global compatibility ?
A more pressing issue is well-definedness.
I.e. why does the choice of local orientation not depend on the chart we picked around x?
But I need to run ... I'll come back and read this later :)
Byes @TedShifrin.
Aw, okay :( See ya, Ted.
@iwriteonbananas Um. That's a problem.
17:39
@BalarkaSen Right, so let's see what happens if we take another chart $g:B\subset M\to \Bbb R^n$ around $x$
(wlog it has the same domain as $h$)
Oh, I guess some commutativity argument is needed.
Indeed, and it would be a good idea to use the hypotheses at some point, which says that $g\circ h^{-1}$ has positive jacobian determinant.
Please continue. I do not see yet how to use that.
Anyways, let's give that generator of $H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)$ a name. Call it $u$.
Then we have the following:
$\mu_x=i_*\circ (h^{-1})_*(u)$
$i:(B,B-x)\to (M,M-x)$ the inclusion
That was just the def. of the local ornetation
17:43
then we also have $\mu_x=i_*\circ (g^{-1})_*\circ (g\circ h^{-1})_*(u)$
@PVAL: Should I make that into an answer?
sure i think that works
So in order for $\mu_x=i_*\circ (g^{-1})_*(u)$ (which is independence of the chart), it would suffice that $(g\circ h^{-1})_*$ is the identity
@robjohn, why $\Bbb Z_+\times \Bbb Z_+ $ and $\Bbb Z_+\times(\Bbb Z_+\times \Bbb Z_+ )$, both under dictionary order have differnt order type?
17:45
True.
well, $g\circ h^{-1}$ is a diffeomorphism of $\Bbb R^n$, so the induced map is either multiplication by $1$ or $-1$
Yeah.
But it has positive Jacobian determinant, which should mean it's orientation preserving.
We get a map $f:\Bbb R^n_+\to \Bbb R^n_+$ on the one-point compactification
The idea is to compute the degree of this map
Hmm. Go on.
A variant of the local degree formula tells us that we can compute the degree of $f$ as follows: Pick any regular value and sum over the signs of the determinant of the Jacobian at each point in the pre-image of the regular value. That number is the degree
Well, $0$ is a regular value
17:49
Right, you told me that. But I do not know how to prove that yet. Go on though.
with one pre-image
Yes, this implies it has degree $1$.
What's the Jacobian of $f$ at that pre-image? Well, it's the same as that of $g\circ h^{-1}$
by assumption that has positive jacobian det.
Hence $f$ has degree $1$
Right.
17:50
compatibility.
The following diagram commutes:
$$\require{AMScd}
\begin{CD}
H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0) @>{H_n(g\circ h^{-1})}>> H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)\\
@V{\cong}VV @V{\cong}VV \\
H_n(\Bbb R^n_*) @>{H_n(f)\,=\,\operatorname{id}}>> H_n(\Bbb R^n_*)
\end{CD}$$
so our induced map up there is the identity, as desired.
Yeah, understood.
Now, compatibility.
But this is tautological
lol.
Yes, I guess it should be a version of the compatibility of homological orientation.
Remember the chart domain $B$ of $x$? That does the job
1 sec phone
OK
So, we have an iso $H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)\cong H_n(M, M-x)\cong H_n(M, M-B)$
17:57
mhm
Pick $\mu_B$ that generator which corresponds to $u$
Then $H_n(M,M-B)\to H_n(M,M_y)$ sends $\mu_B$ to $\mu_y$ for all $y\in B$
It's just by definition of it all, nothing special happening
Yeah, I guess.
So an oriented atlas gives a homological orientation
If you start with a homological orientation $\{\mu_x\}_{x\in M}$, you get an oriented atlas as follows:
Start with any atlas $\mathcal A$.
Ok, yes, if I choose an orientation chart $\phi : B \to \Bbb R^n$ around $x$, then it's also an orientation chart around $y \in B$. And then by definition $\phi^{-1}$ sends $u$ of $H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n - 0)$ to $\mu_x$ in $H_n(M, M - x)$ and $\mu_y$ in $H_n(M, M - y)$.
You keep those chart $h:B\subset M\to \Bbb R^n$ for which $u$ corresponds to $\mu_x$ under the iso $$(h^{-1})_*:H_n(\Bbb R^n, \Bbb R^n-0)\to H_n(B,B-x)\cong H_n(M,M-x)$$ If the chart $h$ does not satisfy that, then you take $\text{reflection} \circ h$
@BalarkaSen Exactly
18:05
@iwriteonbananas Aha, ok.
That way we get a new atlas
and it needs verifying that it's oriented
but I need to take a shower
It's a similar argument as above with some degree computation.
Sure. But I haven't yet interpreted what this means at the level of tangent spaces though. That's something I'd want to work out.
Orientability is equivalent to choosing a basis of each tangent space such that each $x\in M$ is in the domain of an oriented local frame
Thanks, @iwriteonbananas. I also noted that that's more than a proof sketch - it's the whole proof itself :P
It's my pleasure...and it's good practice. :P
18:10
@iwriteonbananas Yeah. But what I was really hunting for (which I don't know if exists) is a direct relation between tangent spaces and local homology groups. In the proof, we just worked at the level of charts, not at the level of tangent spaces (or so I interpreted it)
I'd want to know how much we can mimick the tangent space using the orientation sheaf.
(the ambitious question is, "is there a topological tangent space?")
@BalarkaSen Right
As a side-note: if we have an oriented atlas, we can always choose bases of each tangent space in a 'consistent' way.
$h$ be a chart from the atlas, consider the differential $T_xh^{-1}:\Bbb R^n\cong T_0\Bbb R^n\to \Bbb T_xM$
You should probably clarify some wording there, so that it's not false.
Oops my internet crashed
 
1 hour later…
19:48
Hey,anyone here?
@user153330 hope you can see what I wrote you.
BBL (to some more special research)
20:32
Hello guys, I recently read through my notes and it has a part that says if V1, V2 are linearly independent then span(V1) is not a subspace of span(V1, V2) which seems absurd to me
can you share some intuition?
Huh that's nonsense. Any element of your vector space which can be written as linear combination of elements of V_1 can also be written as linear combination of elements of V_1 and V_2.
So span(V_1) is a subset of span(V_1, V_2) regardless of V_1 and V_2 being linearly independent.
That's what I thought
any wild guesses on what I was trying to write?
what connects span (V1) and span(V1,V2) if V1,V2 are linearly independent?
I don't think anything does.
Hey i would love to get some help-
let a a complex scalar
I need to find Matrix(3,3) S
So S^2=aI+J(0)
J is the jordan matrix
@UserX I mean, if V_1 and V_2 are linearly dependent, you can say span(V_1) = span(V_1, V_2). But V_1 and V_2 might as well be linearly independent bases of your vector space, in which case span(V_1) = span(V_1, V_2) too. So there shouldn't be a sensible characterization or anything.
20:42
I don't know how linear independence applies to bases
Whoops, V_1 and V_2 are vectors there? Dear god.
I think appropriate notations should be v_1, v_2.
Yea I didn't clear that out, they're vectors.
Hello everybody
:(
I am trying to understand some very basic stuff
about derivative notations
2
Q: Understanding derivative notation in those equations

trilolilI am given the following set of equations from a physics course, which is about longitudinal waves in rods. My questions are: On the second line you have $ (\frac{\partial \Delta}{\partial x})dx $ If you are already specifying you are doing a partial differentiation with respect to the x-dir...

has anybody an idea?
@UserX span(v_1) not being a subset of span(v_1, v_2) is still nonsense. And if v_1, v_2 are linearly independent, what you can say is that span(v_1) is a strict subset of span(v_1, v_2).
That is, span(v_1) is not equal to span(v_1, v_2).
(Since, if it was, then for some c, av_1 + bv_2 = cv_1 for any a, b. i.e., (a - c)v_1 = bv_2. But then v_1, v_2 are independent, so that's impossible)
Huy
Huy
@BalarkaSen: "span(V_1)" wasn't enough to imply that V_1 is supposed to be a vector? :P
20:54
You can take a collection of vectors and write down it's span. Naturally, I assumed V_1 is a subset of the ambient vector space because of capitalized V.
So no.
Huy
Huy
do you often talk about sets being linearly independent?
Sometimes. A, B \subset V are dependent if A = kB for some constant k (i.e., every vector of one set is multiple of some vector in the other).
Huy
Huy
never heard of that notion, but ok
done being pedantic with me?
:P
Huy
Huy
no, never
20:57
it's really the capitalized V you should blame.
Huy
Huy
true
then again, (tangent) vectors are often capitalized. :P
oh? they are?
Huy
Huy
from my experience
my GR, DG and Lie theory profs all capitalized them
sounds horrible to me. I have seen vector fields written as $X$ though.
Huy
Huy
it's just horrible when you start
21:00
differential geometers do weird things. indices all on top of the letters.
Huy
Huy
indices can be very useful
i believe you.
Huy
Huy
I wouldn't
but then you're not me
Huy
Huy
how's your analysis progressing?
21:02
slow. high school exams coming up.
Huy
Huy
you need to study a lot for them?
I don't think I've studied for any exams in high school apart from history, because there I needed to know a lot of dates by heart
i forget a lot of things.
Huy
Huy
maybe things you don't really care about
doesn't seem like you're forgetting a lot of maths
there's a difference between biology and mathematics.
Huy
Huy
did you just make this discovery today?
21:05
"one has hormones, the other doesn't"
@Huy no, I knew this one.
Huy
Huy
meh, I never cared for my biology grades
they were average, that was sufficient for me
the average here is 85%.
Huy
Huy
not sure what you're trying to say
I mean, the average score on science subjects in where I live is 85%. So need to study to keep up.
Huy
Huy
ok
21:08
And having puked-on books doesn't help.
Huy
Huy
yummy
2
Q: Understanding derivative notation in those equations

trilolilI am given the following set of equations from a physics course, which is about longitudinal waves in rods. My questions are: On the second line you have $ (\frac{\partial \Delta}{\partial x})dx $ If you are already specifying you are doing a partial differentiation with respect to the x-dir...

just throwing that in here, secretely hoping anyone of you has an answer
@Huy which one do you prefer out of shit and puke?
to this basic question
Huy
Huy
@BalarkaSen shit
21:11
@Huy fair enough.
(that was a reference to you saying yummy to mike's river dream)
Uh, guys, the messages might not look as funny as you deem them out of context. And this is a public chatroom.
Huy
Huy
@BalarkaSen: so what are you studying for biology?
Seems calm here, I'm out.
@Huy lots of nonsense.
Huy
Huy
tell me about it, maybe I remember some of it
21:14
Hmm, so probably my favorite chapter is evolution.
Huy
Huy
what's your least favourite?
er. there's a small chapter on viruses and microbes I haven't even read.
Darwinism is actually quite mathematical.
Mathematical in what way? @BalarkaSen
In the sense that it resembles a random walk to me. I don't know much of probability though, so it's just a feeling.
Not "completely" random though ;-)
21:22
What is the analog of the operators for primitive recursive functions for primitive recursive predictates (e.g. N -> B instead of N -> N)?
While we are at it, here's a paper everyone might enjoy:
:P
nice
One thing they don't teach is what is the driving force behind Darwin's evolution theory?
Mutation.
True. But why the need for mutation?
That's a vague question, in my opinion. Mutation is a biological event, like any other event on Earth. So it's needed or not needed depending upon the definition of need.
21:32
Darwin clearly stated why species struggle to survive in his original work of The Origin of Species, but since then biology just takes it as "obvious".
Well, as to that question, population growth of any species is a geometric progression whereas amount of food on the planet grows arithmetically. So naturally one needs to fight to survive.
But I do not see why that has anything to do with mutation.
Well, those who have a mutation that is favorable survival will naturally survive longer than those that do not have the mutation, right?
But you are exactly right, the population will always grow faster than the food supply; thus the struggle to survive.
I can't parse that statement. Mutation need not enrich an organism with nature-favored qualities. What happens is that ones who do not get nature-favored qualities via mutation gets cancelled off - they die. Thus, by exclusion, the ones which remain have nature-favored qualities (iterate this through a few progenies).
Yes, that is what I am saying :-)
[cont.] It's a common misconception that an organism in unfavorable conditions mutate to give rise to qualities which enable them to survive. It need not. Mutation is a pretty random thing which happens frequently in less developed organisms. But it is by exclusion that the strong ones survive. (this is, btw, where a random walk like structure comes in)
@guest Ah, alright, then.
Ok, I need to head to bed now. See you later.
21:41
Later
 
1 hour later…
22:56
$$\huge{\text{THE MOST AMAZING RESULT I GOT THIS YEAR!!!!!}}$$
2
23:17
Hi!!! @Semiclassical
What's up?
not much. reviewing the group problem my prof put together for my students next week
We have that $|x_{mi}| \to |x_i| \forall i=1, \dots, n$ with $\sum_{j=1}^n |x_{mj}|^2 \leq 1$. Do we get from that that $\sum_{j=1}^n |x_j|^2 \leq 1$ ?
Does anyone have an idea?
@Semiclassical So you are the assistant of the prof? In which subject? @Semiclassical
i'm one of the TAs for the spring introductory quantum physics course
Nice @Semiclassical
Hey @DanielFischer
Do you maybe have an idea?
@Semiclassical do you remember that series I showed to you?
23:28
which?
@Semiclassical The one with $\zeta(4)$
can't say i remember it
@Semiclassical anyway, I only wanted to say that I generalized it for infinitely many powers. :-)
This is absolutely insane, but it worked. :-)
23:43
@Semiclassical Did you see my question? Do you maybe have an idea?
00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

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