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19:00
(actually the product is analytic, but one would prove this by proving that for lie groups after doing the above.)
Ah, ok.
Further, compact Lie groups are completely classified, so there's kind of a lot of conditions you can put on your underlying space... "It's on the list of compact Lie groups"
@MikeMiller what do you mean by the product is analytic?
We are assuming the manifold to be smooth to begin with, right? So the proof would go by adapting the given smooth structure to the continuous group operation?
@AndrewThompson: No.
@Anubhav.K: Do I hafta?
19:01
Then the hard in italics is justified.
@AndrewThompson No, it means any topological manifold with a top. group structure admits a smooth structure under which that top. group structure becomes a Lie group structure.
Or so I interpret it.
@iwriteonbananas: I think so, yes. I am vaguely worried about the case that $M$ is not orientable.
Hm. I can believe that.
@BalarkaSen @MikeMiller Is this what you mean?
@Anubhav.K: That's true, yes, but the group structure is better than that. Don't worry about it.
@iwriteonbananas: Nevermind, if it's true for orientable things it's automatically true for everything.
19:03
Groups are always better.
@MikeMiller Why is it automatic?
@iwriteonbananas: I take that back.
Quite.
Why is everyone trying to embarrass everyone?
Because humans are evil.
On that note I'll leave for the night.
Happy new years everyone!
@StanShunpike font used is courrier new
19:06
@AndrewThompson same to you
I take it back, Mike has had my back ever since this conversation started
It's kind of silly. I am not embarrassed at all, I am glad I was pointed out that I made a false claim
@AndrewThompson Good night!
See ya.
@MikeMiller I think I read something like that when I skimmed one of the thousand Springer books I recently downloaded, but I don't recall whether $M$ was assumed to be orientable
@iwriteonbananas: I'm not hurt. :P
You might have seen it at the end of Bredon.
19:07
Take care, Andrew
The standard proof uses Euler classes. Those only make sense on oriented manifolds. I'm trying to extend the result now; it's probably true for everything.
I'll see if I can find where I read it
Is it 2016 yet, Balarka?
@MikeMiller I don't think I am going to state the preimage theorem for Banach spaces. I rarely know anything about them (i.e., I don't want to embarrass myself!), and it's taking me far off from calculus. I think I'd just go back to bore myself with calculations :(
Thanks though.
@iwriteonbananas Yes.
@BalarkaSen: Fine. Here is the statement of IFT I care about.
Given a map $U \to V$, open subsets of Euclidean spaces, such that $f(0)=0$, $df(0)$ is surjective, there is a chart around $0 \in U$ such that in this chart, $f$ is a projection.
That is to say, one of the canonical projections of Euclidean spaces $\Bbb R^{n+k} \to \Bbb R^n$, that kills off the last $k$ coordinates, say.
(All I'm really saying here is: you can find a chart in which it's linear.)
Similarly if $df(0)$ is injective you can find a chart in $V$ such that $f$ is locally the canonical inclusion of Euclidean spaces.
@MikeMiller same as submersion theorem
19:13
Yes, it is the so-called submersion theorem. This is the version you care about when working with manifolds.
Huy
Huy
is there a different version of IFT?
ok, I see. This is a neater way to state the IFT's, I agree.
Ted's book apparently states it differently.
Huy
Huy
Ted pls.
For Banach spaces the assumption in the first part is instead that the kernel of $df$ has a complement. For Hilbert spaces this is automatically true; for Banach spaces it needn't be.
eg $c_0 \subset \ell^\infty$
the first is the space of sequences that converge to 0, the latter bounded sequences
In the second part you want the image to have a complement.
(A complement to, uh, $X$ means a subspace $Y$ such that $X \cap Y = 0$, $X+Y = U$; that is, $X$ is a part of a direct sum decomposition)
19:19
Well, in the proof for $\Bbb R^n$, you need the kernel to have an orthogonal complement, iirc.
Not orthogonal, just a complement. Orthocomplement is just how you construct them. Which is why they exist in Hilbert spaces.
Ah, ok.
Which is also why this is obviously the correct statement from the proof. ;)
@iwriteonbananas: Yes, it's also true for non-orientable things.
@MikeMiller That's kewl. In Hirsch it's only stated for orientable things
Hirsch is the bible. (If you've already learned a lot about smooth manifolds elsewhere.)
19:24
It seems quite nice indeed
The proof is only a slight extension of the machinery he builds up in there.
What methods does your proof use?
Let $E$ be a (smooth) vector bundle over $M$, and $\sigma$ a section thereof. Hirsch proves that you can mildly perturb $\sigma$ to be transverse to the zero section. In particular, this is true of $TM$. (Counting the intersection number of this section with the zero section gives you the Euler characteristic; in general this idea gives you the Euler class. You need orientability here to be able to take a signed count. Otherwise you just get a Stiefel-Whitney class.)
It is 2016 for some of us already, I imagine...
$$\Huge\text{Happy New Year!}$$
Now suppose $M$ has a $G$-action, $G$ a finite group, and $E$ a vector bundle over $M$ (that this $G$-action lifts to). In particular, $E=TM$. (You may need $G$ to act freely; I don't remember. In any case, the following is true if it does.) Then given a $G$-equivariant section $\sigma$ you can perturb it (through $G$-equivariant sections) to one transverse to the 0 section.
In particular $G = \Bbb Z/2$, $M$ is the oriented double cover of a non-orientable manifold, $E=TM$.
19:29
Well, I am off to do schoolwork.
Now what you get is a $\Bbb Z/2$-equivariant section of $TM$ on the oriented double cover that has a discrete set of zeros. ($\Bbb Z/2$-equivariant sections are the same thing as sections that descend to the non-orientable manifold.) Because $\Bbb Z/2$ acts freely, the zeroes pair off by the group action.
Pick half of the zeroes (so that together with their 'pairs' they form all the zeroes). Pick a chart in which all these zeroes are contained. You can do this. Now you have a ball $B$ in the interior of which all the zeroes are contained and, picking $B$ small enough, a ball $i(B)$ containing the other zeroes. Outside these balls you have a nonvanishing section of $TM$.
The point now is that the assumption that $TM$ has a nonvanishing section implies that you can modify the section over $B$ to make it nonvanishing. (It's something like Poincare-Hopf.) Then do the same modification to the other side. you now have a $\Bbb Z/2$-equivariant nonvanishing section, so it descends to a nonvanishing section to the manifold below, as desired.
If the non-orientable guy is $N$ I used here that $0=2\chi(N) = \chi(M)$.
Jesus, that's a lot to digest
I'll need to read it a third time
Roughly every differential topology theorem also has a $G$-equivariant version.
I think that proof might only work in even dimensions. :(
Why do you think that?
@iwriteonbananas: I wouldn't bother digesting it. It can all be phrased better. Ask me again in a week and a half and I'll do my best to have a correct and well-phrased proof; you might post it on main so there's a canonical reference. There is little need to talk about $G$-equivariant transversality.
@iwriteonbananas: When I modify it over the ball, I need that the signed sum of zeroes is zero. I know that $\chi(M) = 0$, so when I take the signed sum over the whole thing, I get zero. But I have two balls worth of zeroes. Call the signed sum of the zeroes in the first ball $z(B)$. Then $z(i(B)) = (-1)^n z(B)$; if $n$ is even, that they sum to zero tells me $z(B) = 0$.
When it's odd I'm out of luck.
19:44
0
Q: Is there a name for this discrete version of Jensen, specifically when applied to binomial coefficients?

dREaMWe have $2k$ integers greater than or equal to $j\geq0$ $a_1+a_2+\dots + a_k=n$ and $b_1+b_2+\dots + b_k=n$. If for all $1\leq i\leq k$ we have $|n/k-a_i|\leq|n/k-b_i|$. Then $\sum\limits_{i=1}^n\binom{a_i}{j}\leq \sum\limits_{i=1}^n\binom{b_i}{j}$. The same can be said if we replace binomial...

Does anyone recognize this one from a PUTNAM?
@MikeMiller I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to ask on main. I was just skimming through various books, wildly jumping to results that sound cool and go far beyond my scope. If you feel like writing up an answer, I'll post a question though.
@iwriteonbananas: I am now no longer sure it applies for every non-orientable manifold. My money is that if it holds for 3-manifolds, it always holds, but I also put 50% odds that it fails there.
Anything else about topology you want to know before I go back to my hole? :P
There's a lot, but I'm too tired. Trying to see if I can find a counterexample in dimension 3.
Try $S^2 \times I / (x,0) \sim (-x,1)$. Sometimes called the twisted product of spheres.
That's what I would try first.
I don't want to keep you from going in your hole any longer though
19:56
I want to not go into my hole!
Crawl on! To your hole!
:P
@MikeMiller Ok, I'll see if I can squeeze anything out of it
@iwriteonbananas: Doesn't work, that has a nonvanishing section. :(
I don't think I know any other accessible nonorientable 3-manifolds. Oh well.
@MikeMiller any new years plans?
20:14
Get work done before my advisor eats me.
20:32
Happy new year everyone! :)
20:43
happy new year people
@MikeMiller LOL are u in danger of this?
I didn't know math advisors were cannibals on the side
@Stan: On the one hand, it hasn't happened yet, but on the other hand, who's to say it won't if I'm not prepared for our meetings?
This is true
@MikeMiller how does an affine connection help us compare tangent vectors on a manifold?
I can recite the definition, but I don't really get how it accomplishes that...
20:59
Can anyone star my post please? I need that hat badly. :)
2
@Stan: I just call them connections. Anyway, a connection gives you a parallel transport
Hey @MikeMiller. Can you please star any post of mine because I need to get that hat so badly? Sorry for inconvenience. :/
Happy new year to everyone who helped shape this community this year! :)
So if you have a path $\gamma: x \to y$, it gives you an isomorphism $T_x \to T_y$ of inner product spaces. This isomorphism depends on the choice of path
@Hussein: Can't star stuff on my phone
Oh alright. Thanks though :)
2
May I ask where you're from, @HusseinElFeky?
(Also, do you mean starring a particular post on this chat?)
You have a distinct African look but I'm not sure where! :-b
21:08
Egypt
And thanks for the star! :D
Ah wicked! Have you seen maths written in arabic before, @HusseinElFeky?
No prob! ^_^
Yes, sure, but I study Maths in English anyway.
I think it's the prettiest thing!
Yep, I gathered!
Your name looks arabic to me, right?
@MikeMiller why doesn't an isomorphism exist in the first place?
21:11
@Stan: There does, but it's not canonical.
What does that mean?
I think it might be good to push forward and see how it's used and then think about the why.
@Stan: I have two finite dimensional inner product spaces. There is an isomorphism $U \to V$. But I would prefer to be given an isomorphism than to come up with one.
I didn't know. Is it, @HusseinElFeky?
Actually yes. Khalil is definitely an Arabic name too.
It means a friend. Good to know. :)
@Khallil Google for it if you want to check
Another amazing relations established between Ramanujan integrals and my series right at the end of the year.
21:19
hi chat
Haha, I trust you!
That's a cool meaning, @HusseinElFeky.
What up, @Semiclassical?
nothing much
@Semiclassical hi
morning
Hey @Khallil
21:23
Long time no see, @Hakim!
How's everything been going?
Is it the morning for you, @MikeMiller?
@Khallil yeah, have been pretty much absent for the past months, excellent, i wish you a nice new year ! :-) So I guess you finished spivak now?
The same to you!
No, @Khallil, it's 5:24 PM here.
@MikeMiller any ideas of a good exercise to try to learn more how connections work?
@MikeMiller do carmo has some problems
I am just not sure what kind of exercise I should do
@StanShunpike: All of em?
21:26
I kinda gave up on Spivak fairly quickly. I went at the pace of the university and I'm pretty sure I've now covered it all, @Hakim. I recall you sending an e-mail a while back and I'm sorry I haven't replied yet! I've become a master of procrastination in your absence :-b
@Khallil no problem, haven't checked my email for quiet some time now
@Kasper sounds great!
21:40
@MikeMiller Hahahaha I bet id be lucky if I can do one of them
@Stan All the more reason to do all of them
Is do Carmo into this index crap?
I can't tell tbh but he doesn't use the christoffel symbol approach much
As far as I can tell
Yeah I'm not a fan of that. Seems clunky unless u need to calculate stuff
21:59
"unless you need to calculate stuff" can be a pretty big 'unless' :)
22:15
$$\Huge{\text{Happy New Year!!!}}$$
6
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1 hour later…
23:29
I wish you a Happy New Year!! :-)
@Kasper Out of curiosity, would you happen to know how to sum $$\sum_{k\text{ odd}}kq_1^{(k-1)/2} q_2^{(k-1)/2}p_1 + \sum_{k\text{ even}}kq_1^{k/2} q_2^{k/2-1}p_2$$
where $p_1, p_2 \in [0, 1]$ and $q_i = 1 - p_i$, $k \geq 1$ an integer?
Or anyone else who happens to be lurking?
haha @Clarinetist I don't see it directly at least :)
Dang. I was hoping I was just missing some simple insight
I can make a shareable math snippet from it http://kasperpeulen.github.io/mathedit/#/gist/2d2e4527564e6a64495e

my expertise is more on programming then on math tbh ;) I have done very little math the last year
Lol no problem. I forgot you were the one who made that. :) It's very nice imo
23:34
I just saw bug however, it is flickering the preview while I'm typing, nooooo I hate that lol
Very proud of the first combination of a series and an integral I got in 2016. It looks divinely.
monica ?
@Agawa001 Offsharing I mean. :-)
the italian actress ?
well happy new prosperous year @SuperstarMonica
2
23:50
@Agawa001 Thank you! The same noble thoughts to you, a very creative year with a lot of achievements in all areas to you!
During this year some very important math events (to me) are meant to happen. Even a possible set up of a new journal.
It all depends on how fast and creative I'm able to be during the next months.
important catching news iv just heard, congrats

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