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18:02
Right. :)
same applies to your integral.
I see you're back.
I'd go farther and say that integration by parts is the last thing to try...
I forgot it was a special day, so groceries didn't take as long as expected :)
Is it your birthday?
18:04
@JM not when you're dealing with Laplace operator
@tb Very true.
@Ilya Well, there are always exceptions. ;)
@tb seems like you and Mattilda have gone to groceries the same time, haven't you?
@AsafKaragila had that a few weeks ago. No its Santa Claus's birthday.
But for the most part, you'll always want to try substituting first.
18:05
@Ilya approximately, yes. Didn't meet though. All the red caps I saw had a huge white beard underneath.
@tb Satan Lucas.
@AsafKaragila Tom Marvolo Riddle?
No, it's an anagram.
@AsafKaragila mine too
I have not seen or read Harry Potter stuff.
18:07
@AsafKaragila sure, nobody has
I'm fairly certain several folks have. I haven't.
I wonder is anybody of you guys has ever played The Incredible Machine?
Obviously.
My favorite anagram this year was "Ragman Reshaped" the guy who asked the question about system design on MO.
@tb Anagram of what?
18:09
Whom should you ask about system design?
"Input too long" is not an anagram of "asaf karagila"!!
Is "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." a koan?
No. It's a Quran.
18:13
lol
samething
mine anagram is A Hack Levity
though, the operation is not inveritble
I could now be mean and post a picture of you...
@tb do me a favor
Darn. Mike is ahead of me again.
@Nate: Hi ) I have some questions with regard to stochastic stuff - but unfortunately I have to go now
18:18
$\stackrel{\stackrel{\smile}{\smile}}{\smile}$
@Ilya: How is that for a smile?
@AsafKaragila wi-fi?
well, bye everybody
bye @Ilya
18:20
See you Ilya.
$ \int x dx$
Does anybody think it is worth starting a question thread on the meaning of "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." ???
@Mattilda: You should edit your post on the ChatTeX thread to be more modular for robjohn's edits of his code.
@Skullpatrol: please don't. It's a metamathematical question and this is not a discussion forum.
@AsafKaragila Working on it.
18:25
Thanks, @Matt, for correspondance.
Who's Matt?
Who's Hu?
@Mattilda The one you have seems to already be enabled for AMS stuff. Did you check if it renders Hebrew letters and binomial coefficients?
@AsafKaragila Who's on first.
@JM Are we doing the Abbott & Costello version, or the SMBC Theater revision?
Your call. ;)
18:29
@tb Does it not read: "Maths general discussion" in the top right corner t.b. but I do agree it is a "metamathematical question"
@Skullpatrol Here, yes, discussion is fine. Not on the main site.
(and even then, we're not that interested in picking apart von Neumann's brain)
$\text{testing} \ \TeX$
@JM thank you for clarifying that for me
Good evening, everyone.
I understood start a question as "ask a question on the main site" where I'd vote to close as subjective and argumentative. Here I would vote to close as a duplicate.
@Srivatsan good evening
18:32
@Srivatsan Good evening to you.
Mattilda!?
You sound shocked. :)
Matilda.
^ that's a novel by Astrid Lindgren.
18:35
In my mind, it sounds like Matt~.
Hi Jonas!
Hi @tb :).
[I used to pronounce it tilda rather than tilde.]
Mathilde is a pretty name...
Math-hilda!
Like Brumhilda!
18:36
@JonasTeuwen Hey.
Why did he switch to this handle?
@AsafKaragila "Waltzing Matilda" is Australia's most widely known bush ballad. A country folk song, the song has been referred to as "the unofficial national anthem of Australia"
18:38
@JM but a lame movie Un long dimanche de fiançailles in French
We have a fantastic coffee machine in the department building, finally cheap coffee and good coffee are no longer disjoint sets. Also "very close coffee" is adjoined.
@AsafKaragila I always had the impression that there is a mile radius where digestible coffee is banned around every math department.
Good to know there are exceptions :)
@tb Nah. There used to be a decent, but not very cheap, coffee stands around campus - not even far from the building. However the suppliers were shut down and some horrible company took over. They couldn't make coffee and everything was more expensive too.
So we got a deal with Lavazza. They supply the machine and service for free, we buy 500 capsules a month. For a whole department it's not a problem too - even for a small one like ours.
@tb So much for turning coffee into theorems
Huh. I haven't seen $\leadsto$ before... looks weird.
18:42
Gotta go proctor a final. be back much later.
See you, rob.
See you robjohn
@JM Enjoy the $\LaTeX\;\smile$
later (mean)^2
Man, TG is just bad sometimes. I'm glad that they at least removed all the horrible posts on that thread.
18:50
@Skullpatrol: the fun of that quote is that in its German original it is much better. Satz can mean "theorem" and "coffee grounds", but that's doomed get lost in translation.
@tb thanks for the info
I sometimes find it fascinating how people can write things like "This is a direct result of property X, and the implication requires no choice. I believe that property X requires choice for its proof, though".
This is like saying "This vegan food was organically bred, fed, and watered with tears of rich women with nothing better to do. We cook it in lard for the flavour though."
@AsafKaragila So, McDonalds. :)
Give or take, yes. :-P
@JM Not yet. The problem I'm working on has to do with the math jax queue.
18:59
Hmmm... I'm starting to understand something about AD.
Attention Disorder?
Trying to fix the bloody Chrome extension thing.
Axiom of Determinacy.
Testing $\smile$ and $\frown$: I didn't know they were actual latex commands.
@Srivatsan Because there are too many Matts. I'll have to go back to "Matt" though once the marriage and dating proposals start. I'm getting enough in real life already.
Hmmpf. There are not AC questions to answer. All of them either have my answer, or someone already gave a complete and detailed answer that I have nothing to add on.
19:04
@Srivatsan I use \frown for denoting arcs.
@JM they don't have a command for arc?
@Srivatsan some people use them for the cup and cap products in algebraic topology
Apparently not; I have to fake it with that and \stackrel
Weird.
@JM how does that look?
19:06
$\smallfrown\frown$
Interesting.
Do you mean $\stackrel{\frown}{AB}$?
@tb Yep. I did it for Ross once.
heh, "I should thank you for frowning on my answer" :D
2
Grrr. I can't let Chrome win. Bloody. Chrome. Extension.
I'm done for today. See you later.
19:17
@JM Byee.
Have fun J.M.
See you, @JM
Bye, @JM.
19:36
$\frown$
Heh.
19:48
The name change seems to do magic. My rep has increased since by +15.
How do you like having a girl around?
@Mattilda That's got nothing to do with your name change.
People here vote strictly based on the quality of the answer. =)
2
@Srivatsan I was only semi-serious.
@Srivatsan That would be quite different from real life then. Nice.
20:10
Mattilda huh... Shall I take Jomanda?
Sure, sounds good. : )
@Matt: Is your middle name Brumilda?
@AsafKaragila No. Why? My middle name is Nausikaa.
Nausicaa? Like in the anime?
Yes except for it's spelled with 'k' and without "ä".
20:14
Neat!
Iirc they spell it "Nausicaä".
Do you like Miyazaki's films?
Wait wait wait... Isn't Nausikaa a female character from the Greek mythology?
It's a greek princess apparently. My father had Greek and Latin as major at high school.
And he wanted a gay son? :-P
Or so I'm told.
@AsafKaragila Now WAIT a second: who says I'm gay??
20:17
Calling your son by a female name...
I dislike the name "Carson" for a girl, as "car" and "son" are arguably more masculine words...
I agree, I do't like that either.
@AsafKaragila I guess when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...
Sherlock, is that you?
No, that can't be right. You're not using enough cocaine.
I guess Chrome wins. Looks like queueing is too much of a pain in the neck.
@AsafKaragila I no longer follow this conversation...
@AsafKaragila Yes, Watson.
I don't like losing against computers : S
@Mattilda Neither do I.
20:27
@AsafKaragila I should edit the meta post about chatTex but I want to give it another day. Maybe there is an easy solution that I just don't see.
@Mattilda Sure.
@AsafKaragila So what's your middle name?
Nisim. It means "miracles", if you translated both my names you get "collected miracles" Karagila.
Cool : =)
$\stackrel{\odot\angle\odot}{\smile}$
2
20:41
Everyone has a middle name? I want one =)
@Ilya Did you find where to subscribe to mastermath courses?
@Ilya Btw. Could you summarize what these people say: youtube.com/watch?v=3RJXP1tfSBM ? :).
@Srivatsan: I assume that you're older than 21. It is possible to change your name and add another one.
Yep, that's a possibility.
@Srivatsan What do you pick?
@Mattilda I don't have one in mind.
Aw, I have exactly 250 answers right now.
20:53
@JonasTeuwen Oh noes. That makes me feel sad. Poor them.
So... what am I gonna do in the class tomorrow?
Set theory?
Poset basics...
Let's see what I did last year.
Coal mining is probably one of the more miserable jobs you can have. Right after working at Burger King.
@AsafKaragila Don't give them boring homework.
@Mattilda I'm not the one assigning homework on this.
I asked to write the homework sheet on cardinals.
21:04
I'm taking the fact that I did this immensely tedious question and posted my answer on SE and got no reaction (apart from 3 up votes for the effort of typing it up) as proof that my homework was actually boring and not even people on SE want to look at it.
@Mattilda Wow, some formatting will make it look better, no?
I presume you're talking about the equidistribution question. [What course is this?]
Argh. I want the new Batman to be released already!
Yes, me too. I want to see Pittsburgh on screen.
@Mattilda, do you mind if I format your question? Revert it back if you don't like the end product.
21:21
Sorry was out with the puppy.
@Srivatsan It's Futile Attempts. And true, but I don't really know how.
@Srivatsan No, I'd like that very much!
Puppy logic: go for a walk, sniff at all the things, come home, go for a wee.
I think I'm going to have a drink. Today can't get any more unproductive or crappy.
@JonasTeuwen Yes just noticed. It's not 1/i^2 that you summed over : )
@JonasTeuwen: +1. Can I ask you something about limits?
21:37
@Matt If it is correct 8-).
@Matt Sure.
Fatou's lemma uses lim inf instead of lim. Lim inf is lim (inf )... I can imagine what it is (I take the set of all x_m where m > n if the limit is with respect to n). But what difference does it make?
The liminf always exists.
It takes care of oscillations, right?
@Matt, can you check now?
Ah. True. Consider (-1)^n.
21:41
And in your answer, you replaced lim inf with lim. I assume you did that because you proved that it converges, so lim inf = lim.
@Srivatsan Wow, that looks nice, thank you!
You're welcome, Matt.
Are you in mood for some TeX suggestions?
Sure.
Some random things: (1) I changed \mod to \bmod. \bmod is for mod as a binary operator, in contrast with a \equiv b \pmod n.
$ \mod \bmod $
2. This stood out a bit: when you break an equation into multiple lines, the equals sign comes in front of a new line. [Actually, in this particular question, the stackrels are upsetting the spacing. I do not know the solution to this. Perhaps I will ask JM or tb or robjohn later today.]
@Mattilda Oh, the difference is in the spacing between mod and the things surrounding it. For example, n a \bmod 1 looks better to me than n a \mod 1.
21:47
Sure.
Then (3), I added some \left and \right. Not sure if this is an improvement though :)
What does it do?
Oh, (4), use \setminus or \smallsetminus instead of \backslash for set difference.
$\setminus$
@Mattilda Oh, \left( expression \right) adjusts the heights of the paranthesis to match the height of the expression.
Compare $(\frac12)$ with $\left( \frac12 \right)$ with $\Big( \frac12 \Big)$.
21:51
Nice, thank you!
You can notice the difference \left and \right makes in f), for instance.
[The other things I did are obvious: I highlighted things like Answer: and Hint:. I added lines in between.]
Yes, I like the lines.
Let's now hope someone answers the question =)
Oh, one more thing, @Matt. I broke down an equation in part (c). Just check that I didn't do anything stupid.
It makes it slightly weird to read for me but it's right.
@Mattilda Oh, feel free to edit it back =).
21:59
@Srivatsan No, I want to leave your edit as is.
And also this: the usual pattern for the align environment is this:
`A = B`
` = C`
I'm starring this otherwise I forget : )
Sorry, I cannot seem to get this correct in chat.
What do you mean?
I mean that the spacing is a bit weird. Nothing else.
It's not:
A =
B=
...
22:01
It's ok, I understood.
$\subseteq$
Hmm, that looks better than $\subset$.
I think I prefer subset...
To mean non-strict subset?
Aren't both non-strict?
@Mattilda I guess it depends on the author. I never use $\subset$ because I find it ambiguous.
22:06
Well. We also have $\subsetneq$ that is why $\subseteq$ might look nice together with the other one.
Oh we don't. Let's see.
Yes. But considering how $\subseteq$ is much more frequently used than $\subsetneq$, I guess it makes sense to use the simpler symbol for the common case.
Oh we need amssymb for that symbol.
- which one?
\subsetneq.
@Matt, I just remembered. You could bookmark this whole conversation, instead of (or in addition to) starring individual comments.
22:14
@Srivatsan How? Too late now though. Besides: it made JM's sugar comment disappear which is a nice side effect. One of the stars is my own but still.
I'm going to reduce my time on chat, I think SE without chat is working out better for me. I'm no good at dealing with people.
Though I think IRL I'm slightly worse.
@Mattilda Well, I bookmarked it.
May someone answer my most recent three question since it have no full solution, i have evidence that those question is not my homework. Also i am unable to solve it even with the hint may someone give full solution
$A \setminus B$, $A \smallsetminus B$.
$\setminus \gg \backslash$
:)
@robjohn You're an estimate mathemagician :-).
(I was just reading this.)
22:22
Robjohn, the Estimagician.
Matt, here's a link to the bookmark: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/36/…
That's cool and how to I bookmark a conversation myself?
@Mattilda I want to know this too :-).
Click the room link (with a down arrow to the right). Click Create new bookmark. Then you will be presented with a cursor looking like a cross-hair. Click the start and end messages, and name the conversation.
22:26
Cool : ) Thank you, Srivatsan!
You're welcome, Matt.
@JonasTeuwen Is this what you're drinking?
I wish :(.
I'm drinking a 6.99€ bottle.
I'm having a glass of fizzy wine... and it's doing me in completely. And it's too sweet.
22:27
That's like $2.3k+. =)
I have a glass of nothing.
\emptyglass
If I had one of those bottles I wouldn't sell it but drink it myself.
But good wine doesn't have to be as expensive. And do you know for sure that this one is good enough to justify the price?
This is an excellent wine.
Fo su.
22:29
This one is expensive enough to justify the price.
So true : )
I think I wouldn't spend as much for a bottle of wine.
If I had the money...
Yay, 25 more rep until 3k : )
What is the five most hard math subject for undergraduate you think, here is what i think(from most difficult to difficult): 1: Algebraic topology , 2:algebraic geometry , 3: differential algebra, 4:topology, 5:More advanced set theory . For those subject, less than 1 over a million of high school student know anything on any of those subject, do you people agree?
Only topology is for undergrads to begin with.
22:35
I think it depends what's more suitable for you and on the lecturer. They can make any subject arbitrarily difficult if they like.
@AsafKaragila I'm an undergrad and I did AT and am doing AG and advanced set theory....
oh, wow.
@AsafKaragila Actually, is forcing advanced?
Which do you think is the hardest for a shoes salesman? 1: Nuclear weapon design; 2: Taking over the world; 3: Joining this chatroom and studying Chinese?
2
@Mattilda Yes. I studied rep. theory, set theory and could have taken alg. topology too during my undergrad. So what? These were grad level courses.
@AsafKaragila - no, may be you are outdated , here: math.berkeley.edu/programs/undergraduate/major/pure
@AsafKaragila I didn't and don't have a choice. I can only choose from what they offer.
I'm not complaining either : )
22:38
Yes. I am indeed outdated. Or... just possibly, there is a reason why Berkley is one of the best places to study math.
@Mattilda: I too did not have much choice. I still don't have much choice.
@Victor Victor, this could be more productive if you tell us why you're asking such questions. IIRC you are a high school student...
It is quite hard to find an inexpensive house with a wine cellar.
Also. Read closely the page you linked, Victor. You have to choose two and none are defined as "advanced" courses.
@AsafKaragila I'm still regretting that I ballsed up representation theory last term. I mean, I missed the first few weeks and then I couldn't manage to get the homework credits for exam admission : (
Jonas has his unique set of worries =)
22:40
"Elementary.. elementary.. elementary.."
"Intro to.. intro to.. intro to.."
@JonasTeuwen I would guess a normal cellar will do, no?
Almost all my courses were "elementary" or "intro to".
@Matt Depends.
@JonasTeuwen Did you have elementary category theory?
@Mattilda I took it with one of my better teachers, I enjoyed it very much indeed.
22:41
@Srivatsan -i ask my question beacuse i need someone to show me example, otherewise, college will be too overwheming...
NO WAY: I have no idea how this happened but: I have 3k rep!!!
Yay!
@Mattilda: You're welcome.
@Victor Victor I don't understand. If you find college overwhelming, why are you asking about the most difficult course in particular?
@AsafKaragila Thank you : D
@Srivatsan Maybe he's a masochist?
@Victor: Again, none of the indicated courses are "advanced" and in fact they are all defined as elementary or introductory. Mathematics is not complicated, it's just something you have to build one piece at a time.
22:43
@AsafKaragila Yeah, my favourite teacher did it. One that produces outstanding lecture notes and fair exam questions.
I want my exams be so hard that I fail them.
Guys: I have 3k rep : D
@Matt Nice.
@Srivatsan - It is because i want to took more advanced subject in my future
@Mattilda I had to give a lecture on the Stone-von Neumann-Mackey theorem, a proof by a friend of the teacher that was in preprint at the time.
22:44
@JonasTeuwen lol?
@Mattilda Congrats, @Matt.
@Srivatsan You don't buy it, do you? : ) Admittedly, after being Matt for so long, Mattilda looks weird.
Buy «what»?
@Victor: When I was just beginning with mathematics I wanted to take pretty much every possible course. After one year I already disliked geometry; another year and I disliked analysis too; I quickly realized that I want to settle into set theory. When you start studying you realize that some things you like and others you dislike.
@Srivatsan The gender change.
22:46
Oh, you want me to call you Mattilda?
@Srivatsan No, Matt is fine. : )
Now the gender has changed too? =)
I really want that bottle.
@Srivatsan No, it's the same as before : )
@JonasTeuwen I don't know much about wine but I have been lectured many times that 1) decent wine doesn't have to be expensive and 2) expensive wine can be a rip off and disappointment.
I know a bit about wine, yes.
22:49
Yay, next time you need close votes let me know : )
But this is an excellent wine.
@AsafKaragila - i like to learn something that is different from what i know.
We're not talking about decent...
@Mattilda This is why I did that.
@AsafKaragila Due to teachers?
22:49
@Victor Oh, and you know everything someone in an undergrad study that you need to rush into grad level courses?
@AsafKaragila Oh. For a split second I thought you might be nice and/or altruistic.
@Victor Victor, almost everything in undergrad is going to be different. They are going to build on what you know, but they aren't going to be the same.
@Mattilda Due to subjects being boring to me.
@AsafKaragila I think boring is in your imagination. I thought maths was boring until recently. You can't tell me that everything apart from set theory is boring.
@Mattilda I never thought it's boring. Just parts of it :-)
@Mattilda Oh you :-)
@Mattilda Of course not. Many things are interesting. The practice is sometimes boring.
22:52
@Victor, To explain myself a bit more: Between what you know and what you want to know eventually, there's real analysis, topology, abstract algebra (groups, rings, fields stuff), linear algebra.
@AsafKaragila I think most things that seem boring can be made interesting.
By either a good book or a good teacher (in the case of high school)
@Mattilda Now you are asking for a bit too much, aren't you? =)
My maths teacher would always tell us how he really had wanted to become a dentist. I think it's because he sees dentists as people who can torture other people and get away with.
@Mattilda Of course. I completely agree. However I also find certain topics to have more or less penchant for details of some sort. I don't like details.
@AsafKaragila And set theory does not fall under that category? This is a serious question btw.
22:54
@Srivatsan No. Chemistry and biology are not very interesting and French isn't either but my teachers somehow made it interesting back then.
@Srivatsan It does, but I can visualize it so much easily that I can evade the details in most cases.
@AsafKaragila I think detail matters. The big picture is made up of all the details.
@Mattilda No. The big picture is made of the ideas. The detail give the glue which holds together all the notions.
@AsafKaragila I interpret that as: So the details are there. Somehow you get through them easier than most others.
@AsafKaragila @Srivatsan - i think only subjects that seems very interesting are whats call " the subject of you don't know the use of that subject"
22:57
Can you give us an example?
I think I have to go to bed otherwise my partner will be upset. Anyway: I'll see you tomorrow. Less often though, need to transfer time spent here into time spent on work : )
Good night!
If you never know the use of a subject, what's the use of learning it?
In my view, there are three approaches to mathematics: There are those that cannot see the big picture, they are obsessed with the details and hardly ever understand the whole picture (either they can't or they don't grasp it unless figured out through details); there are those that see some details and some of the big picture. They usually require both to have an understanding; and lastly there are those that see the big picture but cannot handle much details.
The majority of people are of the second kind. I am of the third.
I am the first I think 8-). At one point everything comes together!
@Mattilda - your partner will be upset that you will keep the lights on?
And where do you stay? A dorm?
22:59
@Srivatsan: For example, I need to write a forcing proof in full details for my thesis. This is not the usual forcing proof, but involves symmetric extensions and forcing additional structure which is a less common thing to do (at least in what I did so far). I am having a hard time coming up with the details. I do know exactly what the proof needs to have, and that it is in fact correct. Even without verifying the details.
@JonasTeuwen Analysts are often of the first kind, and vice versa. Not always though.

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